Amanpour and Company

THE MEDIA PLAYED A VITAL ROLE DURING THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY, ESPECIALLY SOCIAL MEDIA, DURING THIS ELECTION. EYEBALLS AROUND THE WORLD WERE GLUED TO THE VOTE COUNT. NOW, HOW HAS TRUMP CHANGED THE PRESS? BEN SMITH IS MEDIA COLUMNIST FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES." HERE HE IS SPEAKING TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE FUTURE ROLE OF TRADITIONAL MEDIA OUTLETS. AND HOW THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT HAS AFFECTED THIS AS WELL. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE MEDIA DID RIGHT THIS TIME THAT SORT OF PLEASED YOU? >> THAT I THINK THE BIGGEST TEST FOR THE MEDIA WAS RIGHT AT THE END HERE. WHERE WE KNEW THAT THE VOTE COUNT WAS GOING TO BE SLOW BECAUSE OF MAIL-IN BALLOTS. AND I THOUGHT THE MEDIA DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB THE LAST COUPLE MONTHS, INFORMING PEOPLE THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE PATIENT. THAT IT WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE ELECTION WEEK. IN THE END, MORE THAN 60% OF AMERICANS EXPECTED. AND THEN THEY WERE PRETTY CAREFUL AND PATIENT WITH OFFICIALLY CALLING IT. AS YOU KNOW, THE MEDIA PLAYS THIS BIZARRE ROLE IN THE SYSTEM WHERE THE MEDIA'S CALL IS THE THING IS OFFICIAL AND THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE RUN OUT TO THE STREETS AND HONK THEIR CAR HORNS. SO I GUESS I THOUGHT THAT AT THE END, THEY PROBABLY HELPED GIVE THE ELECTION AS MUCH LEGITIMACY AS IT WAS GOING TO GET. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE THINGS THAT WENT WRONG? >> YOU KNOW, IT IS INTERESTING. I THINK THE MEDIA WAS VERY GEARED UP TO FIGHT THE LAST WAR. WE ALWAYS ARE. AND THE LAST WAR WAS RUSSIAN MISINFORMATION, VERY FACEBOOK CENTRIC. AND I THINK AT TIMES, PARTICULARLY TOWARD THE END WHEN THE NEW YORK POST PUBLISHED SORT OF A STRANGE AND SHAKILY SOURCED STORY. A NEW YORK BASED STORY. THERE WAS THIS OVERREACTION TO IT AND TWITTER BLOCKED LINKS TO IT AND EVERYBODY ACTED LIKE IT WAS WIKILEAKS AND IT REALLY WASN'T. AND I THINK THAT WAS A MISTAKE. I'M SURE THERE WERE MANY MORE UPS AND DOWNS. THAT'S AS FAR BACK AS I CAN REMEMBER. >> NEAR THE END OF THE CAMPAIGN WE SAW TRUFRL'S TWEETS BEING FLAGGED A WHOLE LOT AND PEOPLE FACT CHECKING HIM IN REAL-TIME. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE EARLIER IN THE >> ABSOLUTELY. I THINK IT TOOK US A YOU WILL A WHILE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH A PRESIDENT WHO SAYS THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE ALL THE TIME. WHEN YOU CALL HIM ON THEM. HE JUST BLUSTERS THROUGH UNLESS YOU NAIL HIM TO HIS SEAT. AND I THINK JONATHAN SWAN GOOD REALLY, REALLY WELL. HE REFUSED TO GET OFF THE TOPIC AND EXPRESS A KIND OF FRUSTRATION CONFUSION THAT WAS AUTHENTIC AND I THINK WORKED WELL. >> TWITTER SORT OF STOPPING PEOPLE FROM READING THOSE THINGS. HOW AWKWARD WAS IT FOR TWITTER TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TOIC AND CLUES AMONG POSTS THAT PEOPLE SHOULD READ? IS THAT SOMETHING TWITTER AND FACEBOOK FOR THAT MATTER SHOULD BE DOING? >> I THINK TWITTER HAS NO BUSINESS DOING THAT. IT WAS SOMETHING THAT OTHER NEWS ROOMS WITH WR DEALING WITH PRETTY RESPONSIBLY. I THINK NEWSROOMS LEARNED FROM WIKILEAKS. TAKE YOUR TIME. FIGURE OUT WHAT IS NEWS. REPORT IT OUT. AND THAT'S PRETTY MUCH WHAT EVERYBODY WAS DOING. AND THE POST STORY WAS LIKE MANY NEW YORK POST STORIES, KIND OF INTERESTING BUT NOT NECESSARILY ACCURATE AND PEOPLE WERE CHASING IT. AND THAT SEEMED APPROPRIATE. WHEN TWITTER CAME IN AND LANDED WITH BOTH FEET AND SAID THIS IS TOXIC MISINFORMATION AND BLOCKED IT. IT DREW. MORE ATTENTION TO THE STORY AND ULTIMATELY, I WOULD RATHER THAT THE EDITOR OF THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" MAKES CALLS ON THINGS LIKE THAT. >> THE EDITOR OF THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" DID MAKE A CALL NOT TO RUN THE STORY. YOU WROTE A REALLY GOOD COLUMN BOTH ABOUT THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" NOT RUNNING, THE FULL HUNTER BIDEN LAPTOP STORY BUT THE DECISION DESK AT FOX NEWS. AND THE FACT THAT WASN'T INTERFERED WITH BY MURDOCH. IN TERMS OF REALITY TV SHOWS, TELL ME ABOUT RUPERT MURDOCH'S INVOLVEMENT, WITH FOX AND "WALL STREET JOURNAL" AND THE FLORK POST. >> IT IS REALLY INTERESTING. MURDOCH AND FOX IN PARTICULAR HAVE BEEN MAYBE THE MOST IMPORTANT INSTITUTIONS OF THE AMERICAN RIGHT. FOX HAS BEEN ESSENTIALLY TRUMP TV. UNCLEAR IF IT IS STATE-RUN TV OR TV-RUN STATE. BUT ITS BIGGEST WIDELY WATCHED PROGRAMS ARE THOR COST TRUMP MOVEMENT. AND YET IT IS ALSO THIS CHAOTIC ORGANIZATION WITH NOBODY REALLY IN CHARGE AND MURDOCH SEEMS TO LIKE THAT IT WAY. WHEN IT DIME CALLING THE ELECTION, HE LET THE ORDINARY MACHINERY OF THE NEWS ORGANIZATION, A PRETTY SMART GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO OPERATE INLLY OF POLITICAL PRESSURE. INFORMED VERY AGGRESSIVELY BEFORE ANYBODY ELSE THAT TRUMP WAS LIKELY TO LOSE BECAUSE HE LOST ARIZONA. MURDOCH HIMSELF, I THINK PEOPLE OFTEN IMAGINE HIM HAS THE KIND OF FIGURE PULLING EVERY STRING AND MANIPULATING POLITICS IN THIS CINEMATIC WAY. HE DIDN'T COME TO THE U.S. FOR THIS ONE. HE HAS A PLACE IN THE COTSWALDS. AND I THINK HE DID NOT PUT HIS THUMB ON THE SCALE FOR TRUMP. >> DO YOU THINK THAT HE WAS MORE INVOLVED? >> HE IS THE CEO OF THE OWNER OF FOX NEWS. I'M NOT SURE IF HE WAS INVOLVED. THE TRUTH OF FOX, SINCE ROGER ALES DIED, NOBODY IS REALLY IN CHARGE. EACH OF THE HOSTS RUN THEIR OWN SHOW AND IGNORE THEIR BOSSES. THE NEWS DIVISION IS A LITTLE MORE, OPERATES LIKE SOMEWHAT OF A NORMAL COMPANY SOMETIMES. BUT IT IS A PRETTY STRANGE INSTITUTION ALL IN ALL. >> IN ONE OF YOUR COLUMNS, YOU TALK ABOUT TRUMP MADE OLD MEDIA GREAT AGAIN. WHAT DID YOU MEAN? >> I THINK IN 2016, WHEN I WAS WORKING AT BUZZ FEED, BY THE WAY, THERE WAS A SENSE THAT "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THE "WASHINGTON POST," CNN, HAD KIND OF LOST THEIR POWER TO DECIDE WHAT WAS DONALD TRUMP WAS GIVING A SPEECH AND PEOPLE WANTED TO SEE IT, THEY WOULD JUST PUT ON IT. IF WIKILEAKS WAS GOING TO DUMP A BUNCH OF MAILS, WHETHER, THE PEOPLE WILL SEE IT ANYWAY. WHAT WE'VE ALL LEARNED IS THAT MAYBE PEOPLE WON'T SEE IT ANYWAY. AND THE POWER OF THESE BIG TRADITIONAL NEWS ORGANIZATIONS TO SET THE AGENDA IS LARGER THAN WE THOUGHT. AND THE FUNNY THING IS THAT TRUMP KNEW THAT ALL ALONG. HE'S BEEN OBSESSED. WHY IS HE UPSET WITH THESE BRANDS THAT REACH DIMINISHING NUMBERS OF PEOPLE BUT I THINK HE UNDERSTOOD OUR ABILITY TO SET THE AGENDA BETTER THAN A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE NEWS ROOMS DID THEMSELVES. AND I THINK HE EXPLOITED THAT, AND EXPLOITED THEIR WEAKNESS AND SENSE OF THEIR OWN WEAKNESS. >> IN 2016, YOU WERE AT BUZZ FEED. NOW "THE NEW YORK TIMES." IN 2016, ALL OF A SUDDEN, THAT BUZZ FEED, THE DAILY BEAST, THE DAILY CALL, THE "HUFFINGTON POST," ALL THE NEW MEDIA WOULD BE THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE. YET IN THIS ELECTION, WE READ "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THE "WASHINGTON JOURNAL," THE "WASHINGTON POST." HAS THERE BEEN A SHIFT BACK TO MAIN STREAM MEDIA? >> UNDOUBTEDLY. AND I THINK TRUMP DROVE A LOT OF. SHIFT. WHEN YOU'RE COVERING A BEAT, THE CORE THINGS TO GET UNDER THE SKIN OF THE PERSONAL YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT, TO HAVE THEIR PEOPLE GIVING YOU INFORMATION. THE FACT HE'S TOTALLY OBSESSED WITH THIS. I THINK THE TRICKY THING ABOUT THIS, NEWS PRINT IS STILL GOING AWAY. THE FUTURE IS STILL COMING. IT IS JUST IN A SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT SHAPE. I THINK THAT, I DON'T THINK THAT THE NOTION THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE CONSUMING CONTENT FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE ON MOBILE DEVICES HAS CHANGED. BUT I THINK THAT TRUMP AND I THINK REALITY, HAVE REALLY RESTORED THE CENTRALITY OF THESE OLDER NEWS ORGANIZATIONS. THE SIEG ONES. >> WELL, WHAT ABOUT TRUMP? WHAT DO YOU SEE WOULD BE BEST FOR HIM DOING NOW? >> I THINK THE THING ABOUT TRUMP IS THAT HE REALLY, REALLY THRIVES ON ATTENTION. AND I THINK THE CHILING THING FOR HIM IS THAT IT WAS UNDERSTANDABLE THAT HE THOUGHT HE WAS GETTING ATTENTION BECAUSE HE WAS DONALD TRUMP. ACTUALLY HE WAS GETTING ATTENTION BECAUSE HE WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. AND YOU JUST ALREADY, THAT'S A THING THAT SHIFTS FAST. AND I THINK THERE'S A QUESTION. RIGHT NOW HE'S THINKING ABOUT HAVING THESE RALLIES AND HIS REALLY POINTLESS ATTEMPT ON CONTEST THIS PRETTY DECISIVE VOTE AGAINST HIM. I THINK IT WILL BE A QUESTION OF, DOES HE THINK THE BEST WAY TO GET SUBSTANTIAL INVITING JOE BIDEN TO THE WHITE HOUSE? I THINK AFTER HE LEAVES, YOU KNOW, WHAT EXACTLY HE DOES, HE'S A MEDIA ENTREPRENEUR. THAT'S HIS REAL CAREER. WHETHER HE TRIES TO CAPITALIZE ON THAT IS GOING TO BE A BIG QUESTION. >> IF TRUMP IS A MEDIA ENTREPRENEUR AT HEART, DO YOU THINK THERE'S ROOM FOR NEW MEDIA EMPIRES SOMEWHAT BASED ON NEWS OR NEWS MAX OR SOME OF THESE OTHER MORE FRINGE ORGANIZATIONS, IF TRUMP DECIDES TO MAKE IT HIS PLATFORM? >> WELL, FOX NEWS HAS ALWAYS KNOWN A BIG SHARE OF THEIR VIEWERS THINKS THEY'RE TOO LIBERAL. A THIRD OF THE FOX AUDIENCE THAT THINKS THEY'RE TOO LIBERAL AND OPEN TO SOMETHING TO THE RIGHT. I THINK THE CHALLENGE, TELEVISION NEWS IS NOT A GREAT BUSINESS. IT IS NOT A GET RICH QUICK BUSINESS. AND I DON'T REALLY SEE ANY SIGN THAT TRUMP WANTS TO OPERATE A BUSINESS IN THE HOPES OF LONG MATERIAL RETURNS. I THINK HE WANTS CASH FLOW. HE WANTS TO GET PAID. THE SO AMERICAN NEWS PAYING HIM A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT TO LICENSE THE TRUMP NAME. BUT I THINK THAT HE'S GOING TO BE LOOKING FOR THINGS TO GENERATE CASH RIGHT AWAY WHEN HE LEAVES THE WHITE HOUSE. >> DO YOU THINK THE MAIN STREAM MIDEAST TO USE A BROADTER, THE TRADITIONAL MEDIA OUTLETS, ARE BASICALLY BIASED TOWARD THE LEFT OR BIASED AGAINST TRUMP? WHAT BIASES DO YOU THINK THEY REALLY HAVE? >> I THINK TRUMP PUT THEM IN A POSITION BY ATTACKING THEM, LYING ABOUT THEM SPECIFICALLY. WHERE HE WAS CONSTANTLY REALLY TRYING HARD TO TURN US INTO THE OPPOSITION. AND I THINK THERE'S AN ARGUMENT, DO YOU TAKE THE BAIT? AVOID TAKING THE BASE? ARE YOU THE BAIT? ULTIMATELY, IT WAS NOT A GAME YOU COULD WIN. I DON'T THINK THERE WAS SOME CLEVER TACTICAL WAY TO AVOID THAT SITUATION. WHEN TRUMP LIES ABOUT YOU SPECIFICALLY. WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO? >> DO YOU THINK THERE'S A GENERATIONAL CHANGE HAPPENING IN NEWSROOMS THAT IS CAUSING THE NEWSROOMS TO BE MORE ACTIVIST? IN SOME WAYS, LESS GOVERNABLE THAN THE BOSSES? >> I THINK THERE'S A CHANGE IN SOCIETY. NOT PARTICULARLY LIMITED TO NEWS ROOMS AROUND, PARTICULARLY HOW EMPLOYEES VIEW EMPLOYERS. HOW WORKERS FEEL IN TERMS OF THE PLACE THEY WORK, THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT OVER THE SUMMER REALLY ACTIVATED THAT, PARTICULARLY AMONG BLACK REPORTERS, FOR WHOM THERE HAD BEEN IN NEWS ROOMS A KIND OF TACIT UNDERSTANDING THAT WE WANT DIVERSITY BUT WE ALSO EXPECT YOU TO BIDE YOUR TIME. IT WAS PRETTY UNFAIR. UNTENABLE. THIS IS BEING ARBITRATED RIGHT NOW. DO YOU TRUST PEOPLE MORE IF YOU KNOW THEIR BIASES? I DON'T THINK THERE WILL BE ONE ANSWER TO THAT. I THINK IT WILL GO IN DIFFERENT WAYS. >> DO YOU THINK THE TRADITIONAL MEDIA WAS THIS TIME AROUND STILL AS IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST, FUNDAMENTALLY OUT OF TUFL WITH WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY? EVEN HOW THE VOTE WOULD GO? >> I DON'T THINK THERE'S A MEDIA THERE. I THINK COMPLICATED. PEOPLE SAY, WELL, I WAS IN GEORGIA AND I TALKED ON 100 PEOPLE. WHAT IS THAT? A SMALL POLL. IT WAS A HUGE REMINDER. I'M NOT SO SURE WE WERE OUT OF TOUCH AND CONFIDENT ABOUT WHAT WE INFLUENCE AND WHAT IS POSSIBLE TO KNOW. >> THE PRESS HAS LOST A LOT OF CREDIBILITY. BOTH WHETHER IT IS ON THE RIGHT WITH THE FAKE NEWS, OR EVEN AMONG MANY PEOPLE WHO REALIZE A LOT OF SOCIAL MEDIA IS MISINFORMATION OR STUFF BEING SPREAD AROUND. HOW DOES THE PRESS REGAIN CREDIBILITY? >> I THINK THE ANSWER IS SLOWLY. IT IS AMONG DIFFERENT GROUPS. DIFFERENT PEOPLE TRUST DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE MEDIA. AND I DON'T IMAGINE IT WILL CENTRALIZE OF PEOPLE WILL FIND ORGANIZATIONS THEY TRUST AND THEY MAY BE VERY DIFFERENT. I THINK YOUNGER PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR ARE MORE AND MORE SOPHISTICATED ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA. WHAT NOT TO TRUST AND HOLD THINGS THAT THEIR HEAD THAT THEY'RE NOT SURE IS TRUE. AND THAT'S PRETTY MUCH A HEALTHY SHIFT. >> BEN SMITH, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.