Amanpour and Company

>>> NOW WE TAKE A LOOK AT HOW ONE MAN WENT FROM BEING A TECH EXECUTIVE AT MICROSOFT TO LEADING THE CHARGE FOR THE MODERN FOOD MOVEMENT. NATHAN WALKED AWAY FROM IT ALL TO PURSUE A LONG HELD DREAM AT CULINARY SCHOOL. HE FOUNDED MODERNIST CUISINE, A RESEARCH LAB EXPLORING THE CUTTING EDGE OF COOKING. AND THEY EXPLORE THE HISTORY AND SCIENCE BEHIND PIZZA OF ALL THINGS. HERE HE IS SPEAKING TO WALTER ISAACSON. >> NATHAN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW. >> WELL, THANKS. I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE BUT WHATEVER HERE MEANS IN THE PANDEMIC WORLD. >> SO EVER INS I'VE NOPE YOU, YOU HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN EVERYTHING FROM DINOSAURS, AND NOW MODERNIST PIZZA, THE SCIENCE OF COOKING. LET ME UNDERSTAND. HOW DID THIS ALL BEGIN? WHAT WERE YOU LIKE AS A KID? >> WELL, I LOVED FOOD EARLY ON. WHEN I WAS 9 YEARS OLD, I DISCOVERED COOKBOOKS IN THE LOCAL LIBRARY AND I ANNOUNCED TO MOM I WAS GOING TO COOK THANKSGIVING DINNER ALL BY MYSELF AND GO SHOPPING BY MYSELF, THE WHOLE DEAL. AND I DID. IT WAS NOT A TOTAL DISASTER. IF IT HAD BEEN, MAYBE MY LIFE WOULD HAVE GONE A DIFFERENT DIRECTION. >> YOU WERE GOOD AT MATH AND PHYSICS, TOO. >> I WOULD HAVE BEEN A CHEF EXCEPT FOR THE FACT I WAS REALLY GOOD AT MATH AND PHYSICS. I WOUND UP GETTING DEGREES IN MATH AND PHYSICS AND GEOPHYSICS. >> YOU LEFT HIGH SCHOOL LIKE AT AGE 14, RIGHT? >> YEAH. BY THE TIME I GOT TWO MATH DEGREES AND A Ph.D. I WAS 23. >> THOSE WERE IN WHAT, THEORETICAL PHYSICS? >> THE LAST ONE, Ph.D. THEORETICAL PHYSICS BUT ALSO A MASTERS IN ECONOMICS FROM PRINCETON, AND ONE IN GEOPHYSICS FROM UCLA. AND MY BACHELORS WAS MATH. >> WHEN YOU WERE STUDYING PHYSICS AND MATH AND GETTING ALL THE DEGREES, YOU EVENTUALLY GO OFF TO CAMBRIDGE AND STUDY WITH STEPHEN HAWKING. PRETTY AMAZING. TELL ME WHAT THAT WAS LIKE. >> STEPHEN IS A FANTASTIC PHYSICIST. WHAT IS LESS WELL DESCRIBED IS HE'S ALSO A REALLY GREAT GUY. HE WAS FUNNY. HE LOVED TO TELL JOKES. GREAT SENSE OF HUMOR. THE OTHER THING ABOUT STEPHEN, IF YOU WORKED FOR HIM, IT'S REALLY HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR YOURSELF. YOU MIGHT WAKE UP SOME DAY AND SAY I'M NOT FEELING WELL. THIS HAPPENED AND THAT HAPPENED. THE WORLD IS SO CRUEL. BUT I CAN WALK AND I CAN DO ALL THESE OTHER THINGS. AND HERE'S THIS MAN WITH INCREDIBLE PHYSICAL CHALLENGES. CHALLENGES THAT WOULD BREAK ALMOST ANYBODY'S WILL, AND YET HERE HE IS NOT ONLY SURVIVING BUT HE'S AT THE TOP OF HIS FIELD. >> WHEN YOU WERE CHIEF TECHNOLOGY OFFICER AT MICROSOFT, YOU WERE FAMOUS. I REMEMBER, IN THE EARLY 1990s, BEFORE THE WEB HAD SPREAD AROUND, YOU SAID IT'S GOING TO MOBILE, SMARTPHONES. TELL ME ABOUT THAT MEMO AND HOW IT AFFECTED THINGS. >> I WROTE A SERIES OF MEMOS ABOUT HOW COMPUTING WAS GOING TO CHANGE AND WHAT THINGS WERE GOING TO BE IMPORTANT. MY ARGUMENT WAS A LOT OF IT DEPENDS ON THE GEOMETRY OF THE HUMAN BODY. OUR EYES WORK BEST AT THE DISTANCE OF OUR ARMS AND THAT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT. SO IT MEANS IF WE ARE HAVING A SHARED EXPERIENCE, WE NEED A MUCH BIGGER SCREEN SO SEVERAL OF US CAN SEE IT TOGETHER. WE MOVE AROUND. SO A PORTABLE COMPUTER THAT YOU CAN READ AT ARM'S LENGTH IS LIKE OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE WHAT WE WANT FOR A HUGE AMOUNT OF WHAT WE DO. >> WHY DID MICROSOFT NOT INVENT THE SMARTPHONE THEN? >> IN 1991, I WROTE A MEMO THAT HAS A PICTURE THAT I MADE MYSELF WITH AN ILLUSTRATION PROGRAM OF SOMETHING THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE AN iPHONE. AND THE REASON, IT'S EASY TO THINK, KNOWING THE FUTURE IS THE THING THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO GO DO IT BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO BELIEVE ENOUGH IN THAT FUTURE TO PUT ENOUGH RESOURCES BEHIND IT AND THEN NOT GET DISTRACTED BY THE THINGS THAT ARE SIMILAR BUT NOT AS GOOD. SO MICROSOFT'S EARLY EFFORTS IN PHONES WERE AIMED AT MUCH MORE PRIMITIVE PHONES WITH WHAT WAS CALLED A FEATURE PHONE AT THE TIME. MUCH MORE SIMPLE APPLICATIONS LIKE ADDRESS BOOKS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. WHICH WERE IMPORTANT FOR SURE. BUT IT WASN'T THE WORLD THAT REALLY, THE iPHONE WAS THE FIRST IMPLEMENTATION OF, I'LL SAY MY IDEA. I'M SURE OTHERS HAVE IDEAS LIKE THIS EARLY ON ALSO. >> I KNOW YOUR ENTHUSIASM, I KNOW BILL GATES AND HIS INTENSITY. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE AT MICROSOFT YOU WALKED INTO HIM AND SAID YOU WANTED TO TAKE A LEAVE FROM MICROSOFT TO GO TO COOKING SCHOOL. >> WELL, IT WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO EVER ASKED THAT AND THE ONLY ONE EVER GRANTED ALSO. BILL IS INCREDIBLY FOCUSED. AND IT WAS A LITTLE PUZZLING TO HIM THAT I WOULD WANT TO GO DO SOME OTHER THING, PARTICULARLY ONE THAT WASN'T AS OVERTLY INTELLECTUAL. TO ME, THAT WAS KIND OF THE POINT. I DIDN'T TAKE A LEAVE TO GO DO STRING THEORY OR SOMETHING. I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN WHAT I NORMALLY DO. >> SO YOUR INTEREST IN THE SCIENCE AND THE CHEMISTRY AND THE PHYSICS OF COOKING LED YOU TO THIS WHOLE MODERN CUISINE THING THAT YOU'RE DOING? EXPLAIN THOSE VOLUMES. >> AFTER RETIRING, I BUILT THIS AMAZING KITCHEN AND I BOUGHT STATE-OF-THE-ART EQUIPMENT INCLUDING SOME OF THE THINGS THAT I KNEW THERE WERE CHEFS THAT WERE EXPERIMENTING WITH SCIENTIFIC LIFE TECHNIQUES AND REALLY TRYING TO MAKE FOOD THAT WAS CREATED IN A JARRING WAY. >> HOW MANY VOLUMES WAS THAT FIRST BOOK YOU DID? >> SIX. >> 2500 PAGES JUST IN YOUR FIRST SET OF BOOKS ON MODERN FOOD, MODERNIST FOOD AND IT TIED THE SCIENCE AND YOU DID OBSESSIVE PHOTOGRAPHY. I MEAN, DID PEOPLE THINK YOU WERE GOING NUTS? >> ABSOLUTELY. FORTUNATELY, BECAUSE I HAD BEEN ON MICROSOFT FOR A WHILE, I DIDN'T NEED TO GET FUNDING UP FRONT FOR THIS. NO ONE WOULD HAVE GIVEN IT TO ME. AT THE TIME, COOKBOOKS AND IT'S STILL TRUE, THERE WAS A HUGE EMPHASIS ON COOKBOOKS ON DUMBING THINGS DOWN. SO THE SERIES LIKE COOKING FOR DUMMIES, STEAK FOR DUMMIES OR WHATEVER. AND IS THAT KIND OF BOOK SATISFYING TO YOU? THIS IS NOT ABOUT MAKING SOMETHING SUPER SIMPLE, IN MY VIEW. IT WAS EXPLAINING HOW IT WORKED. ANOTHER LOVE OF MINE IS PHOTOGRAPHY. AND I THOUGHT, YOU HAVE A BOOK TRYING TO TALK ABOUT COOKING USING THE VERY LATEST TECHNIQUES, THINGS THAT MAKE SOME OF THE BEST CHEFS THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND AND LOTS OF SCIENCE. THERE'S PEOPLE THAT MIGHT SAY, THAT WAS OFFPUTTING. THAT WOULDN'T BE THEIR IDEA OF SOMETHING FUN. I THOUGHT IF I HAD REALLY COMPELLING PHOTOGRAPHS, WHERE I'M ABLE TO SHOW THINGS RATHER THAN JUST TELL THEM, MAYBE I COULD SEDUCE PEOPLE TO BE INTERESTED IN THE BOOK. >> NOW YOU'VE TAKEN ALL THIS SCIENCE, ALL THIS PHOTOGRAPHY, ALL THIS MODERNIST FOOD IDEAS AND YOU'VE APPLIED IT TO WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER ONE OF THE MOST ORDINARY FOODS AROUND WHICH IS PIZZA. TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU APPLIED SCIENCE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO THE PIZZA DOUGH, WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT THAT? >> WELL, ONE OF OUR THEORIES IS, OR PRINCIPLES, IS THAT ANY FOOD IS WORTHY OF RESPECT. AND ALTHOUGH PIZZA IS A SIMPLE FOOD, IT MAY BE ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR SINGLE DISHES ON EARTH. HERE'S AN EXAMPLE OF BOTH HOW WE WORK AND WHAT COMES OF IT. ALMOST EVERY PIZZA IS PUFFY AT THE RIM AND THE CRUST IS HIGH AND THIN IN THE MIDDLE. WHY IS THAT? THE FIRST ANSWER PEOPLE GAVE IS, WELL, THE CHEF LEFT EXTRA DOUGH AT THE SIDE AND MAYBE THAT'S TRUE BUT EVEN IF YOU HAVE A DEAD FLAT PIECE OF DOUGH, I ASK LOTS OF PEOPLE. OF COURSE, I KNEW WE WERE GOING TO DO EXPERIMENTS. WEIGHT OF THE SAUCE AND THE CHEESE AND WHATEVER ELSE, SAUSAGE OR VEGGIES. SO WE MAKE PIZZA SIDE BY SIDE. AND ONE WOULD HAVE THE SAUCE AND CHEESE ON IT. AND THE OTHER WOULD HAVE SAND OF THE EQUIVALENT MASS. PUFFS UP IN THE CENTER. TURNS OUT WEIGHT ISN'T THE ISSUE. WHICH I KNEW ALREADY BECAUSE WE TRIED THESE EXPERIMENTS WITH BREAD. WE TRIED TO BAKE BREAD WITH WEIGHTS ON TOP OF IT. THE YEAST IS STRONG ENOUGH AND THE EXPANSION STRONG ENOUGH. IT SHRUGS OFF WEIGHT. >> WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, I HAD THIS HISTORICAL THEORY, THAT PIZZA WAS INVENTED ON THE LOWER SIDE OF NEW YORK IN AN ORIGINAL RAY'S PIZZA SHOP. IS THAT TRUE? >> SADLY, NO. >> OH. >> SO WE SPENT A TON OF TIME ON THE HISTORY OF PIZZA. AND DISCOVERED NEW HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS. WE BOTH DOCUMENTED AND PUSHED IT FORWARD. BUT PIZZA WAS A STREET FOOD IN NAPLES. IT WAS A STREET FOOD IN POOR NEIGHBORHOODS. IT GOT POPULAR BECAUSE THE RICH PEOPLE OF NAPLES WOULD SNEAK DOWN, BUT IT WAS A VERY LOCAL CUISINE, WHICH IS TYPICAL OF ITALY. >> WHEN WAS THIS? >> THE 19th CENTURY. THERE WERE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE MAKING PIZZA IN 1790. WE KNOW FROM A CENSUS. AND THAT FIRST PIZZA WAS NOT ANYTHING LIKE YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE AS A PIZZA. THE INITIAL TOPPINGS WERE A TINY FISH LARVA. BUT BY THE MID 18th OR 19th CENTURY, SO 1850, IT WAS VERY RECOGNIZABLE FOR WHAT WE HAD TODAY. I THINK WOULD HAVE STAYED IN NAPLES, EXCEPT FOR POLITICS AND POWER. SO BEFORE 1870, NAPLES WAS THE CAPITAL CITY OF SOMETHING CALLED THE KINGDOM OF THE TWO SICILYS. ONE OF WHICH WAS SICILY. NEVER HAD A GOOD ANSWER AS TO WHY THEY CALLED IT THAT, BUT WENT FROM BEING A CAPITAL CITY WHERE IT WAS QUITE RICH TO A PROVINCIAL CITY IN 1870, WHEN ITALY UPIFIED AND BECAME A COUNTRY FOR THE FIRST TIME. COUNTRY FOR THE FIRST TIME. THERE WAS ALSO TERRIBLE CHOLERA EPIDEMICS. THAT CAUSED THEM TO INSTITUTE A PUBLIC WORKS PROJECT WHICH INVOLVED TEARING DOWN SOME OF THE WORST SLUMS OF NAPLES AND BUILDING A SEWER SYSTEM AND MAKING IT A MUCH BETTER, CLEANER CITY. IN THE 19th CENTURY, WHEN YOU TEAR DOWN SLUMS, YOU NEED SOME PLACE FOR THE PEOPLE TO GO. A COMBINATION OF PEOPLE LITERALLY HAVING NOWHERE TO GO BECAUSE OF HOUSES TORN DOWN AND THIS POLITICS, MEANT THAT NAPLES LOST ABOUT A THIRD OF ITS POPULATION IN A 20-YEAR PERIOD. FROM 1880 TO 1900, TWO MILLION PEOPLE LEFT NAPLES. SOME WENT TO OTHER PARTS OF ITALY, BUT MOST WENT TO THE NEW WORLD. THEY WENT TO THE UNITED STATES AND THEY WENT TO SOUTH AMERICA. AND IT WAS THE POOREST PEOPLE GOING. IT WASN'T THE RICH. SO THOSE WERE THE PEOPLE EATING PIZZA, WANTED PIZZA. KNEW HOW TO MAKE PIZZA AND THEY BROUGHT PIZZA WITH THEM. >> IS THAT HOW PIZZA GOT TO NEW YORK CITY? >> THAT'S HOW PIZZA GOT TO NEW YORK CITY. >> YOU TRAVELED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. >> THE WORLD. >> SOMEWHAT OBSESSIVELY. THIS IS A FULL VOLUME OF WORK. IN DIFFERENT PLACES. TELL ME WHERE YOU FOUND SOMETHING THAT REALLY SURPRISED YOU AND THAT YOU LOVED. >> WE WERE SURPRISED MANY TIMES ON THIS TRIP. WE WENT TO 300 PIZZERIAS IN SOUTH AMERICA, ASIA, ALL ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, ALL OVER ITALY AND OTHER PARTS OF EUROPE. AND YOU WOULD OCCASIONALLY FIND SOMETHING TRULY STUNNING. SOMEONE WORKING AWAY IN A COMMUNITY AND MAKING FANTASTIC PIZZA. BUT WE ALSO FOUND THAT BASICALLY REALLY OLD FAMOUS PIZZERIAS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD ARE LOUSY. >> WHY? >> BECAUSE THEY'RE OLD AND THEY'RE FAMOUS. THEY GET TOURISTS THAT COME NO MATTER WHAT. WHEREAS THE THING THAT DISTINGUISHES A GREAT PIZZERIA IS THE FOUNDER IS STILL AROUND AND NOT MAKING EVERY PIZZA OR SHE'S NOT MAKING EVERY PIZZA. THEY'RE AT LEAST INSPECTING THE HELL OUT OF THEM. >> HOW MANY COUNTRIES ON THIS PLANET HAVE PIZZA PARLORS? >> I THINK THERE'S 185 COUNTRIES THE U.N. RECOGNIZES. SOMETHING LIKE THAT, DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU COUNT TERRITORIES BUT ALL BUT THREE OR FOUR HAVE PIZZERIAS. >> NATHAN THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> THANK YOU, WALTER. IT'S ALWAYS FUN.