Amanpour and Company

>>> THE INTERNET HAS BEEN REDEFINING POLITICS. ONCE DISMISSED AS A JOKE, MEMES WIELD POWER TO ATTACK OPPONENTS AND ENERGY A BASE. JOAN DONAVAN AND EMILY DREYFUSS INVESTIGATE THIS. THEY DISCUSS THE POWER THEY WIELD. >> THANKS. THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US. WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION DAYS AFTER PAUL PELOSI, THE HUSBAND OF THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE WAS ATTACKED VIOLENTLY IN HIS HOME. WE ARE FINDING OUT MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE ATTACKER AND HOW HE SUBSCRIBED TO SO MANY OF THESE IDEAS ONLINE THAT PERHAPS LED HIM TO THIS ATTACK. FIRST I GUESS FOR OUR AUDIENCE, A CLARIFICATION, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUBSCRIBING TO AN IDEA AND A MEME? >> ANY IDEA HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BECOME A MEME. BUT IT ONLY BECOMES A MEME IF IT RESONATES AND CAN GO VIRAL AND TRAVELS THROUGH CULTURES AND THROUGH PEOPLE. ONE OF THE MEMES THAT THIS ATTACKER, THAT THIS VIOLENT ATTACKER WE KNOW WAS INTERESTED IN AND SHARED ONLINE IS A MEME CALLED, IT'S OKAY TO BE WHITE, WHICH IS A SLOGAN. PEOPLE SOMETIMES THINK OF MEMES AS BEING IMAGES WITH TEXT OVER THEM ON THE INTERNET. A POLITICAL MEME, A MEME PRE-DATES THE INTERNET AND CAN BE ANYTHING FROM A HASH TAG TO A PHRASE TO AN IMAGE. THIS, IT'S OKAY TO BE WHITE CAMPAIGN THAT THIS PERSON WHO ATTACKED PAUL PELOSI SUBSCRIBED TO AND CARED ABOUT, WE LOOKED INTO IT DEEPLY. IT WAS A DISINFORMATION MANIPULATIVE CAMPAIGN LEFT ON THE INTERNET FOR FOLKS LIKE THIS PERSON TO FIND AND BE TAKEN DOWN RADICAL WITH. IT SEEMS LIKE THIS PERSON, WHO THEN ENDED UP ATTACKING THE HUSBAND OF THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, WAS INSPIRED BY A LOT THESE MEMES VIA THE INTERNET. THAT'S WHAT WE TALK ABOUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT MEME WARFARE. >> YOU AND I HAVE SPOKEN ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS ABOUT DIFFERENT CONTROVERSIES, WAYS THE INTERNET WORKS. SADLY, WHEN I LOOKED AT YOUR BOOK, THERE WERE SO MANY EXAMPLES OF WHAT, I GUESS, WE COULD CONSIDER, THAT'S JUST THE INTERNET, TURNING INTO ACTUAL PHYSICAL VIOLENCE IN THE REAL WORLD. ALL THREE OF YOU DO A GREAT JOB OF DRAWING THOSE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN WHY IT'S IMPORTANT NOT JUST TO READ THIS BOOK BUT TO STUDY WHAT'S HAPPENING AND REALIZE THAT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ONLINE WORLD AND THE OFFLINE WORLD. >> YEAH. TO YOUR POINT, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT OUR BOOK TRIES TO SHOW IS THAT THINGS ONLINE DO MATTER. THEY DO HAVE POLITICAL UPTAKE AND POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES. SO WE WANTED TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE HOW MEMEMS INFLUENCING POLITICAL COMMUNICATION. IN PARTICULAR, SHOW IT HISTORICALLY BY USING MEMES AS SOME OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS IN THE BOOK. SO WE BEGIN WITH OCCUPY, WHICH IS THE OCCUPY WALL STREET MOVEMENT, WHICH MANY PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER AS A LEFTIST ANARCHIST MOVEMENT. OUR CHAPTER REALLY DELVES INTO HOW THE RIGHT WING AND THE FAR RIGHT, AS WELL AS LIBERTARIANS AND ANARCHISTS, LEARNED HOW TO USE THE INTERNET TO THEIR ADVANTAGE TO SPREAD THEIR FRINGE MESSAGING. CENTRAL FIGURES IN THAT CHAPTER ARE UNLIKELY TO APPEAR IN OTHER OCCUPY HISTORIES, SUCH AS ALEX JONES, STEVE BANNON, ANDREW BREITBART AND, OF COURSE, RON PAUL WHO WAS LEADING A VERY -- A VERY LARGE ONLINE SOCIAL MOVEMENT. WITH OCCUPY, WHAT WE SHOW IS THAT IDEAS DO MOVE PEOPLE OFF OF STREETS. WE HAVE SEEN THAT HAPPEN MANY, MANY TIMES WITH HASH TAG MOVEMENTS. WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT WHERE THE BOOK GOES IS WE TRACE HOW PEOPLE GET TAKEN IN BY LIES AND DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS AND HOW MEMES BECOME SO IMPORTANT IN THE TRANSMISSION OF HATE, HARASSMENT AND INCITEMENT ONLINE. SO WE DO A TEN-YEAR HISTORY STARTING WITH OCCUPY AND ENDING WITH STOP THE STEAL. WE BELIEVE THAT THE INTERNET IS FUNDAMENTALLY REVOLUTIONIZING COMMUNICATIONS, AND WITH IT ALL OF OUR SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS. >> WHAT'S ALSO INTERESTING AS YOU POINT OUT IN THE BOOK IS ALMOST LIKE A SPIRALING AFFECT WHERE THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT EXISTS ON THE INTERNET, BUT THEN A REAL WORLD INCIDENT ACTUALLY ADDS MORE FUEL, ALMOST CREATING MORE MEMES AND IT GOES BACK ONLINE AND MORE PEOPLE HEAR ABOUT IT. JANUARY 6th, YOU STARTED TO SEE THAT, WHERE STOP THE STEAL, AS YOU POINT OUT, THAT WASN'T BY ACCIDENT THAT THAT PHRASE SORT OF TRENDED. BUT THEN WITH THE WORDS THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS SAYING AND WITH WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN REAL TIME, YOU SAW KIND AN EVOLUTION OF THINGS. >> YEAH. IT'S THE CYCLE. WE CALL IT A MEME WAR. WHEN SOMETHING HAPPENS ONLINE, PEOPLE ARE EXCITED ABOUT IT. STOP THE STEAL WAS THIS HASH TAG PHRASE THAT WAS ACTUALLY COINED BY ROGER STONE WHO REGISTERED A WEBSITE CALLED STOP THE STEAL IN 2015, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THAT DONALD TRUMP WOULD NOT GET THE NOMINATION FOR THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENCY. IF WE GO BACK IN OUR MINDS, THE GOP DID NOT WANT HIM TO BE THE NOMINEE. STONE, WHO WAS WORKING FOR HIM, REGISTERED THIS WEBSITE IN ANTICIPATION OF BEING ABLE TO LAUNCH A CAMPAIGN TO SAY THEY STOLE THE NOMINATION FROM HIM. IT DIDN'T WORK. HE DID GET THE NOMINATION. SO HE HELD THAT IDEA, THAT MEME IN RESERVE FOR WHEN IT WAS NEEDED. THEN THE THING ABOUT ANY KIND OF A CONSPIRACY THEORY OR IDEA OR ANY OF THESE THINGS IS THEY WORK, THEY GO VIRAL WHEN THEY PLAY ON SOMETHING THAT FEELS TRUE. RIGHT? YOU DON'T GET CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT DON'T RESONATE IN SOME WAY WITH SOME KIND OF PART OF SOMEONE'S EXPERIENCE. THAT IDEA RESONATED WITH SOME PEOPLE FOR VARIOUS REASONS. ALL SORTS OF REASONS. WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN IT RESONATES ONLINE, THEN IT GETS STRONG ENOUGH, THEY GO INTO THE REAL WORLD AND DO SOMETHING. THIS IS WHERE IT BECOMES A MEME WAR. FOR IT TO GO MORE POWERFULLY, YOU NEED IN REAL LIFE THERE TO BE SOME KIND OF SPECTACLE OR VIOLENCE OR SOMETHING THAT PROMPTS A TON OF MEDIA ATTENTION AND ATTENTION FROM OTHER PEOPLE, WHICH THEN GROWS THE CAMPAIGN. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WITH STOP THE STEAL. IT GREW. IT SNOWBALLED. THEY ARE BUILDING MOMENTUM. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE -- I CONSIDER MYSELF A MEMBER OF THE MAINSTREAM PRESS STILL. NOT JUST MAINSTREAM PRESS BUT THE INSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT, THE DEMOCRATS AND THE SYSTEMS THAT ARE SET UP IN THE GOVERNMENT. THEY SAW THOSE THINGS BUT WERE LIKE, THOSE ARE WEIRDOS THAT WE CAN IGNORE. OR IF WE CAN'T IGNORE THEM, WE WILL TISK THEY, POINT OUT HOW CRAZY THEY ARE. WE DON'T NEED TO WORRY THEY REPRESENT MAYBE THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG. WHETHER THESE MOVEMENTS BACK BACK AND FORTH, THEY BUILD MOMENTUM. THOSE STOP THE STEAL ROAD SHOWS PEOPLE WERE MAKING JOKES ON TWITTER, THEY CONTRIBUTED TO THE MOMENTUM OF GETTING PEOPLE TO THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6. >> WHAT WAS IT ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP WHERE HE UNDERSTOOD THAT THIS IS A FORM OF COMMUNICATION, AND HE TAPPED INTO IT IN A WAY THE POLITICAL LEFT HASN'T AND RIGHT NOW YOU SEE MANY MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN AND THE FURTHER RIGHT WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY UNDERSTANDING THIS CONVERSATION AND SAYING THAT THIS IS WHERE MY CONSTITUENTS ARE, THIS IS WHERE MY BASE IS, THIS IS WHAT I NEED TO NOT DENY? >> I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT USE MEMES, THERE'S A COUPLE OF FUNDAMENTAL FEATURES THAT ARE BOOK OUTLINES ABOUT MEMES IN GENERAL. USUALLY, THEY NEED TO BE ANONYMOUS. IT SHOULD ELICIT PARTICIPATION. PEOPLE SHOULD FEEL LIKE THEY ARE PART OF THE MESSAGING AND THEY ARE PART OF THE MEME WAR. TRUMP AND PEOPLE ON THE FAR RIGHT IN PARTICULAR KNEW THIS VERY WELL. THEY ALSO KNEW THAT THEY COULD USE MEMES TO CARRY THEIR MESSAGES WITHOUT HAVING TO SHOW WHO THEY WERE, WITHOUT HAVING TO SHOW THEIR TRUE MOTIVATIONS. THIS KIND OF COMMUNICATION HAS GOTTEN EASIER. IT ACCOMPLISHES THE CERTAIN GOALS OF POWER, POLITICS AND EVEN FUN OR CHAOS. ON THE RIGHT, THEY HAVE RECOURSE TO MUCH MORE TRANSGRESSIVE IRONY AND HUMOR THAT PEOPLE ON LEFT FIND OFFENSIVE. IT'S NOT SURPRISING TO TAKE A CONTEMPORARY EXAMPLE, YOU SAW THE ADAPTATION OF A MEME LIKE OKAY BOOMER WHICH WAS FUNNY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO SAY TO ANYONE OVER 30, ESSENTIALLY, ABOUT THEM JUST NOT GETTING IT, THAT ADAPTED INTO OKAY GROOMER. IT'S A TRANS SLUR. THE REASON WHY THEY CHOSE GROOMER -- IF YOU WATCH ENOUGH OF THE MEDIA ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THESE, THEY LAY OUT THEIR RATIONALE WHICH WAS IF YOU CALLED SOMEONE A PEDOPHILE ONLINE, YOU COULD BE ACCUING THEM OF A CRIME AND YOU WOULD LOSE YOUR ACCOUNT. THEY CHOSE GROOMER BECAUSE OF THE CONTENT REACTION. IT TOOK MONTHS AND MONTHS FOR TWITTER TO START REACTING. HERE WE NOW HAVE THE MIDTERMS HERE, A SERIOUS WEDGE ISSUE AROUND TRANS PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO EXIST. THESE CONTENT PROBLEMS OR CONTENT MODERATION PROBLEMS DO BECOME CULTURAL ISSUES, CULTURAL WEDGE ISSUES. THEY CAN TRADE UP THE CHAIN ALL WAIT INTO MAINSTREAM POLITICS. WE HAVE TO STOP THINKING ABOUT IT AS LOW CULTURE, BECAUSE OF SOMEONE LIKE TRUMP WHO WAS VERY GOOD AT ADAPTING MEMES THAT WERE OUT THERE. WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL TO MAKE SURE THAT WE FOCUS ON THE POLITICAL VIOLENCE COMMITTED AGAINST THE PELOSIS. THIS IS AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT THAT WE HAVE WITNESSED. WE DON'T WANT TO BE SHOOTING DOWN TWITTER MISINFORMATION THAT SOMEHOW THIS WAS A LOVER'S QUARREL OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE DON'T LET THESE KINDS OF MEMES GET TOO STICKY, OR ELSE WE ARE BACK INTO A SITUATION LIKE WE WERE WITH SANDY HOOK WHERE WE DISCUSS CRISIS ACTORS INSTEAD OF THE ACTUAL TRAGEDY. >> A LOT OF THE MEMES THAT IT LOOKS LIKE THIS GUY WHO ATTACKED AND TRIED TO KIDNAP AND HURT NANCY PELOSI AND ATTACKED HER HUSBAND, A LOT OF THE MEMES HE TRAFFICKED IN ARE EXPLICIT, VIOLENT RHETORIC. BUT THEY WILL HAVE A JOKE AS PART OF IT. I DO THINK THAT WE IN THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA AND CULTURE HAVE CONSIDERED IF THERE'S A JOKE, IF PEOPLE ARE LAUGHING AT IT, THEY CAN'T ACTUALLY MEAN IT. WE NEED TO BE MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE UNDERSTANDING THAT PEOPLE CAN BE SERIOUS AND LAUGHING AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. WE NEED TO -- WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO WITH THE BOOK IS BRING BACK THE CURTAIN AND SAY, THE IRONY ON TOP IS A PROTECTIVE LAYER, HOPING YOU WILL MISS THE ACTUAL DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE BEHIND. >> THERE'S A PHRASE IN YOUR BOOK, POLITICS IS DOWNSTREAM FROM CULTURE. CULTURE IS DOWNSTREAM FROM THE INFRASTRUCTURE. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE, THE INTERNET INFRASTRUCTURE COMES TO MIND. WE HAVE A BILLIONAIRE THAT SUCCESS IT WILLY PURCHASED WHAT HE WANTS TO BE THE TOWN SQUARE OF THE INTERNET, WHETHER HE IS SUCCESSFUL OR NOT IS ANOTHER HALF HOUR CONVERSATION. DO YOU THINK THAT ELON'S TAKEOVER IS GOOD, BAD, INDIFFERENT, UNKNOWN? >> FOR RIGHT NOW, IT'S UNKNOWN. I DON'T HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL. IF I DID, I WOULD BE IN A DIFFERENT BUSINESS. I THINK IT'S BAD TO HAVE A SINGLE -- THE SINGLE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD ALSO IN CHARGE OF ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMUNICATION PLATFORMS GLOBALLY, GIVEN THE FACT THAT WHEN HE DOES DIP A TOE INTO GEOPOLITICAL ISSUES, HE TENDS TO BE ON THE SIDE OF AUTHORITARIANS. WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE AS AN IMPORTANT PIECE OF OUR POLITICS, OUR POLITICS OFTEN REFLECT THE VALUES OF OUR INFRASTRUCTURE. IF OUR INFRASTRUCTURE IS GOING TO BE SLIDING INTO THIS DIRECTION WHERE HATE, HARASSMENT AND INCITEMENT ARE PART OF THE NORMAL COURSE OF THINGS, THEN WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT REFLECTED IN OUR POLITICS AND LIKELY IT IS SHOWING UP IN THESE NEW KINDS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND NETWORK INCITEMENT. >> TAKING A STEP BACK, AT SOME POINT WATCHING THIS CONVERSATION, YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS IS STILL TWITTER, AN ONLINE COMMUNITY. SO WHAT IF THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD OWNS THIS THING OR IF AS HE RECENTLY DID HE SHARES A CONSPIRACY THEORY IN THE WAKE OF THIS ATTACK OF NANCY PELOSI'S HUSBAND THAT IS TOTALLY FALSE AND HE DELETES IT? WHY DOES IT MATTER? WHY SHOULD WE CARE? >> TWITTER HAS AN OUTSIZED INFLUENCE ON OUR CULTURE IN AMERICA IN PARTICULAR. MAINLY BECAUSE OF WHO IS ON THERE. TWITTER IS A CAULDRON OF ELITES IN A LOT OF WAYS. WHAT HAPPENS ON TWITTER, WHAT TRENDS ON TWITTER, WHAT THE VIBE IS ON TWITTER ENDS UP BEING SMATTERED ALL OVER TELEVISION AND IN HOUSES. MY HUSBAND WILL COME HOME AT THE END OF THE DAY AND THE STUFF THAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING ON TWITTER THAT I HAVE BEEN IN THE BOWELS LOOKING AT WHO MADE IT AND WHERE IT CAME FROM AND WHO RETWEETED IT, HE COMES HOME AND HE KNOWS ABOUT IT. IT MADE ITS WAY TO THE CONVERSATIONS AT HIS OFFICE OR TO THE RADIO. IT GETS PICKED UP. THERE'S ONE FACT. IT HAS A LOUDER VOICE THAN OTHER PLACES. ELON MUSK REPRESENTS A KIND OF TECHNOCRAT OF THE SILICON VALLEY ILK WHO -- THERE'S A GROWING NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO HAVE THIS IDEA THAT AS TECHNOLOGISTS, THEY KNOW MORE THAN OTHER PEOPLE. AS SOMEONE WHO LIVES IN THIS AREA, I CAN TELL YOU A LOT OF PEOPLE IN SILICON VALLEY HAVE THIS SENSE THAT, HEY, WE ARE THE ONES WHO MADE THIS WORLD THE WAY IT IS. THE GOVERNMENT IS BROKEN. THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN. THIS IS A TECHNO-MONARCHIST MINDSET THAT'S INSURGENT IN CERTAIN VERY POWERFUL CIRCLES. ELON IS A PART OF THAT. ELON IS JUST A POWERFUL TROLL IN THE SAME WAY THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS. HE IS FUNNY. HE IS USING THE INTERNET IN A SILLY WAY, RILING PEOPLE UP. TALK TO ANY REPORTER WHO HAS BEEN ON THE MUSK BEAT OR THE TESLA BEAT FOR YEARS. ELON HAS NO QUALMS SICKING HIS NETWORKED GROUP OF FANS ON ANYONE. WE HAVE SEEN THAT. THAT'S WHAT GOT HIM SUED WHEN HE CALLED SOMEONE A PEDOPHILE ON TWITTER. HE IS WILLING TO ENGAGE IN THAT KIND OF TARGETED HARASSMENT THAT IS THE THING THAT CAN BECOME SO PROBLEMATIC. ELON ALREADY HAD MILLIONS OF MILLIONS AND NOW HE OWNS THE PRODUCTION OF THIS SYSTEM THAT HAS AN OUTSIZED INFLUENCE ON OUR POLITICS. YOU HAVE BEEN SEEING ACCOUNTS NOW THAT THERE'S BEEN MORE RACISM, MORE N WORD, MORE ANTI-SEMITIC STUFF ON TWITTER SINCE MUSK'S TAKEOVER. SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE, HAS HE CHANGED THE IN THINGS? YOU DON'T HAVE TO TWEAK THE ALGORITHM TO INFLUENCE WHAT KIND OF CONTENT IS ON TWITTER, BECAUSE YOU GIVE -- YOU CAN GIVE A MESSAGE -- YOU CAN MAKE IT CLEAR TO PEOPLE, MAKE IT SEEM TO PEOPLE LIKE THIS IS OKAY NOW. THEY WILL DO IT. THEY WILL ENGAGE IN IT. >> THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US. THE BOOK IS CALLED "MEME WARS". >> THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> THANK YOU.