Amanpour and Company

>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

CNN FOUNDER TED TURNER, THE MAN WHO CREATED A REVOLUTION IN GLOBAL NEWS, HAS DIED.

CHRISTIANE JOINS ME WITH REFLECTIONS ON HIS LIFE AND LEGACY.

> >> THEN, TRUMP TRIES TO WRAP UP THE IRAN WAR, BUT WHAT IS THE REALITY ON THE GROUND?

I ASK MIDDLE EAST SECURITY EXPERT DANNY CITRON OF IT, WHO IS ISRAEL'S TOP IRAN ANALYST.

> >> AND RAILING BARNES TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN HOW BLACKFACE EXPLODED FROM A NICHE PERFORMANCE INTO A NATIONAL EXPORT.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WE ARE, SYLVIA A AND SIMON B POITRAS PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SHOWING WARSHAW, HUGH AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO A PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK.

CNN FOUNDER TED TURNER HAS DIED AT THE AGE OF 97.

AN INNOVATOR AND ICON, HE REVOLUTIONIZED THE TELEVISION BUSINESS BY TURNING A WILD IDEA INTO REALITY, CREATING THE FIRST 24 HOUR NEWS CHANNEL RIGHT HERE --CNN.

>> TO ACT UPON ONE'S CONVICTIONS WHILE OTHERS WAIT, TO CREATE A POSITIVE FORCE IN A WORLD WHERE CYNICS ABOUND, TO PROVIDE INFORMATION TO PEOPLE WHEN IT WASN'T AVAILABLE BEFORE.

I DEDICATE THE NEWS CHANNEL, FOR AMERICA, THE CABLE NEWS NETWORK.

>> TED TURNER WAS MORE THAN A MEDIA MOGUL.

HE WAS AN ENVIRONMENTALIST, A PEACE ACTIVIST, A CHAMPION SAILOR AND A PHILANTHROPIST, DONATING MORE THAN $1 BILLION TO THE UNITED NATIONS OVER 10 YEARS.

TURNER WAS MARRIED THREE TIMES INCLUDING TWO ACTRESS AND ACTIVIST JANE FONDA.

TED TURNER IS SURVIVED BY FIVE CHILDREN.

FOR MORE ON TED TURNER'S LIFE AND LEGACY, LET'S BRING IN SOMEBODY WHO WORKED VERY CLOSELY WITH HIM, OUR VERY OWN CHRISTIANE.

CHRISTIANE, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

I'M SORRY FOR THE LOSS OF SOMEONE WHO I KNOW WAS A ROLE MODEL FOR YOU, WHO HELP CREATE THE STATE OF NEWS TODAY, AS WE SEE IT, THROUGH AN INTERNATIONAL LENS.

YOU WERE THE INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR .

YOU WANTED TO BE THE FOREIGN NEWS REPORTER AND HE TOLD YOU KNOW, I DON'T LIKE THAT NAME.

ITS INTERNATIONAL.

THE WORLD IS SEEN THROUGH AN INTERNATIONAL AND IT'S CRAZY TO THINK BACK, THAT YOU STARTED AS A DESK ASSISTANT IN ATLANTA IN 1983.

YOU RECALL DELIVERING COFFEE AND TWINKIES, HEARING RUMORS THAT TED MAY ACTUALLY NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE PAYROLL THAT WEEK.

HERE WE ARE NOW, SO MANY YEARS, SO MANY DECADES LATER.

YOU HAVE TRAVELED THE WORLD, REPORTING FROM WAR ZONES, ALL OVER.

I WONDER HOW LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD, HOW THEY VIEWED TED.

>> WELL TED WAS ALWAYS THE MOST EXCEPTIONAL CHARACTER , AND TODAY IS A VERY SAD DAY, A SAD DAY FOR THE CNN FAMILY AND I THINK IT'S A SAD DAY FOR THE WORLD BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT DAY THAT WE ARE ABLE TO REMEMBER THIS GREAT, GREAT MAN.

REMEMBER WHEN GIANTS RULED THE WORLD BECAUSE HE WAS A GIANT IN THERE ARE VERY FEW OF THEM NOW.

HE STARTED CNN NOT JUST AS A MONEYMAKER FOR HIMSELF, NOT JUST A VANITY PROJECT, AS THE GREAT AMERICAN CAPITALIST ENTREPRENEUR THAT HE WAS, BUT REALLY DID MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THIS WORLD FOR GOOD AND HE REALLY BELIEVED THAT US TELLING THE STORIES OF THE WORLD BACK TO AMERICA AND REFLECTING AMERICA BACK TO THE WORLD WAS A GREAT, GREAT SERVICE.

AND HE WAS RIGHT.

THE WORD STARTUP DIDN'T EXIST THEN AND YET CNN WAS A START UP.

THE WORD VIDEO-ON-DEMAND DIDN'T EXIST THEN AND YET THAT IS WHAT CNN CREATED.

AND IT WAS THE FIRST, ABSOLUTE FIRST AND MOST ESPECIALLY INTELLIGENT AROUND THE WORLD IT WAS FIRST.

SO HE BROKE DOWN SO MANY BARRIERS AND HE WAS, YOU KNOW, HANDSOME AND SWASHBUCKLING AND HE WAS OUR COMMANDING OFFICER, AND WE SAID YES SIR, AND WE FOLLOWED HIM NOT BECAUSE WE WERE AFRAID, NOT BECAUSE THERE WAS ANY PUNISHMENT OR PUNITIVE MEASURES, BUT BECAUSE WE BELIEVED IN HIS VISION, AND WE WERE ALL HIS WILLING ACCOMPLICES, AND IT WAS ABSOLUTELY THE BEST PLACE TO BE AS A YOUNG JOURNALIST.

WHO KNEW ?

IT WAS CHICKEN NOODLE NEWS, YOU REMEMBER?

AND YET HE MADE IT, AND YET HE MADE IT.

I REMEMBER ALL OF US AT THE BEGINNING, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY HAD A GRADUATE DEGREE.

WE WERE ALL UNDERGRADUATES AND WE ALL SAID, HEY, YOU KNOW, WE'LL GO TO CNN AND WE'LL DO OUR GRADUATE STUDIES ON THE JOB, AND THEN WE'LL GO TO THE BIG LEAGUES IF WE CAN.

WHO KNEW CNN WAS GOING TO BE THE BIG OF THE BIGGEST LEAGUES?

TODAY I THINK WHAT HE CREATED STANDS OUT MOST IMPORTANTLY BECAUSE HE TOLD US THAT WE HAD TO COVER THE WORLD FROM ALL SIDES, NO MATTER WHO LIKED WHAT SIDE.

WE WERE NOT ACTIVISTS FOR POLITICAL AGENDAS.

WE WERE JUST OUT AND OUT NEWS REPORTERS AND YET, HE BASICALLY BROKE DOWN THE BARRIER USING THE WORD FOR RING.

HE SAID NO, THIS IS NOT FOR NEWS, YOU'RE NOT A FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT.

THIS IS AN INTERNATIONAL NEWS NETWORK, AN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT.

IT WAS A BIT DIFFICULT TO SWALLOW BECAUSE I WOULD'VE LIKED TO HAVE BEEN EDWARD R. MURROW, GREAT FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT BUT WE ARE INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENCE AND I SAW HIM MANY TIMES, I WORKED FOR HIM SO I WAS NOT HIS FRIEND IN TERMS OF TALLY TALLY BUT TOWARDS THE END AND ESPECIALLY AFTER HE WAS NO LONGER AN EXECUTIVE POWER, WE DID GO AND SEE HIM.

MANY, MANY CNNER CLASS WENT AND TREKKED AND DID THE PILGRIMAGE, NOT JUST BECAUSE WE THOUGHT IT WAS OUR DUTY, BUT BECAUSE WE STILL WANTED TO HEAR WHAT TED HAD TO SAY AND WHAT TED THOUGHT.

AND ONE OF THE LAST TIME WAS THE INTERVIEW THAT YOU'RE GOING TO PLAY NOW, AND HE WAS CLEARLY MUCH DIMINISHED BUT AS SHARP AS EVER IN HIS VISION, IN HIS ENGAGEMENT, AND I HOPE YOU ENJOY THIS LAST INTERVIEW THAT WE CONDUCTED.

>> CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT HOW YOU'RE FEELING?

>> I'M FEELING TIRED.

BUT I'M WORKING ON IT .

>> DO YOU FEEL YOU DON'T HAVE THE SAME ENERGY THAT YOU USED TO?

>> NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

I'VE GOT ARTERIAL FIBRILLATION'S AND REMISSION RIGHT NOW BUT IT COULD COME BACK AT ANY TIME.

>> YOU ARE SOMEBODY WHO'S KNOWN FOR YOUR PHENOMENAL SUCCESS.

I MEAN, KIND OF MIND BLOWING SUCCESS, AND THE CUTTING-EDGE REFORMS THAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING .

HOW MUCH DO YOU LOOK AT SUCCESS IN CONTEXT WITH FAILURE?

WHAT DOES FAILURE MEAN TO YOU?

HOW DO YOU LOOK AT FAILURE?

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH IT?

>> I AVOID IT, AND I'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN DOING THAT.

I KNEW I DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO GET CNN TO BREAKEVEN, BUT I FIGURED, I SAID HOW AM I GOING TO GET AROUND IT?

I THOUGHT IT THROUGH REAL CAREFULLY AND I FIGURED IF I GET ON THE AIR AND PEOPLE SEE JUST HOW HELPFUL IT'S GOING TO BE, I'LL BE ABLE TO RAISE THE MONEY LATER ON AND I WAS ABLE TO DO JUST EXACTLY THAT.

IT WAS HARD BECAUSE THE FINANCES, THROUGH FIRST YEAR , THE BUDGET, WE WERE 100% OVER THE BUDGET ON EXPENSES.

IT COST US TWICE AS MUCH TO RUN AS WE PROJECTED AND THE INCOME WAS HALF AS MUCH AS WE PREDICTED.

SO THE BOTTOM LINE WAS ONE QUARTER OF WHAT WE PROJECTED AND THE BANKERS SAID, TED, WE'RE SORRY, THIS IS NOT A BANKABLE DEAL.

YOU'VE GOT TO GIVE US OUR MONEY BACK.

I SAID, GIVE ME A LITTLE TIME TO GET SOMEBODY ELSE TO LEND IT TO ME.

IT WAS REALLY FUN.

AND IT WAS SCARY.

IT WAS JUST AS SCARY OR SCARIER THAN THE WIND IN THE FASSETT RACE BUT ALL STORMS HAVE A LOT IN COMMON.

YOU'RE IN DANGER.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE A COOL HEAD.

TIMING IS IMPORTANT IN EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO.

THE FIRST 10 YEARS WE LOST MONEY AND THEN WE BROKE EVEN IN THE 11th YEAR, AND NOW WE ARE MAKING A DECENT PROFIT.

>> WHEN YOU WERE VERY YOUNG, YOUR FATHER TOLD YOU TO BE SURE TO SET YOUR GOALS SO HIGH THAT YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY ACCOMPLISH THEM IN ONE LIFETIME.

THAT WAY YOU'LL ALWAYS HAVE SOMETHING AHEAD OF YOU.

DID YOU SET YOUR GOALS HIGH ENOUGH?

MOST PEOPLE WOULD SAY YES, AND YOU'VE ACCOMPLISHED THEM ALL.

>> WELL I HAVEN'T ACCOMPLISHED THEM ALL.

I HAVEN'T GOTTEN RID OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND WE HAVEN'T GOT -- WE ARE HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION BUT WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN FAR ENOUGH ALONG WITH FIGHTING GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE.

THAT, AFTER NUCLEAR WEAPONS, IS THE GREATEST DANGER THAT WE FACE, AND IT'S PREVENTABLE.

THE GOOD THING IS ALMOST EVERYTHING IS PREVENTABLE.

THE BAD THINGS, ALL YOU'VE GOT TO DO IS TO THEM.

>> YOU HAVE DONE SO MANY AMAZING THINGS AND YOU HAVE HAD AND ARE LIVING AN AMAZING LIFE.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN IS THIS INCREDIBLE FAST NET RACE IN 1979.

WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER TODAY ABOUT THAT RACE, WHICH WAS SUCH A DANGEROUS RACE?

IT WAS A DANGEROUS RACE.

I REMEMBER THAT.

IT WAS --THE WINDS GOT UP CLOSE TO 70 MILES AN HOUR IN THE WAVES GOT TO 40 FEET HIGH, ACCORDING TO THE STATISTICS SO IT WAS ROUGH AND 14 PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

>> DID YOU KNOW IT WAS GOING TO BE AS BIG AS IT WAS?

>> IN FACT, WHEN I HEARD THE WEATHER FORECAST, OUR NAVIGATOR CAME OUT OF THE NAVIGATION BOOTH AND TOLD US IT WAS GOING TO BE THE WEATHER THAT IT WAS.

I SAID 20 PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE TONIGHT AND 14 DID.

>> 14 OR 15 IN FACT DID.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

DID YOU EVER THINK OF NOT GOING THROUGH WITH THE RACE?

>> DROPPING OUT?

NO WAY.

THAT WOULD'VE BEEN LIKE DROPPING OUT WITH CNN.

>> SO YOU WERE DETERMINED TO PUSH ON?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> WAS THERE EVER A MOMENT THAT YOU THOUGHT YOU WOULDN'T MAKE IT?

>> NO, BUT I DIDN'T SPEND A LOT OF TIME THINKING ABOUT NOT MAKING IT.

I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO KEEP GOING.

>> WERE YOU AFRAID?

>> NO.

I WAS CONCERNED BUT I WASN'T AFRAID.

IF I WOULD'VE BEEN AFRAID I WOULD'VE DROPPED OUT.

THERE WAS NO PENALTY FOR DROPPING OUT.

>> EXCEPT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE WON.

>> RIGHT.

>> WERE YOU MORE CONCERNED WITH WINNING THEN DYING?

>> THAT'S WHAT IT SAID IN THE BOOK.

ABSOLUTELY.

>> AND CNN WAS ALSO A MAJOR CHALLENGE.

IT WASN'T AN EASY THING TO START.

>> JUST ABOUT EVERYBODY THAT HAD AN OPINION DIDN'T THINK WE COULD DO IT.

>> AND WHAT DID YOU SAY TO THEM?

WHAT DID YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> TAKE A LOOK AT IT.

IN RETROSPECT, NOW YOU CAN SEE THAT WE DID DO IT, OBVIOUSLY, AND IT WAS A HUGE SUCCESS.

HUGE.

>> HOW DID YOU CONVINCE THEM, AND DID YOU EVER FEEL THAT IF ALL THESE EXPERTS ARE TELLING ME I CAN'T DO IT, WELL BE THERE'S SOMETHING TO IT?

>> DIDN'T BOTHER ME AT ALL.

>> WERE YOU TRYING TO CREATE A REVOLUTION WITH 24/7 NEWS OR WERE YOU JUST TRYING TO FIND ANOTHER BRILLIANT BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY?

WHAT WAS YOUR MOTIVATING IMPULSE?

>> BOTH.

BOTH.

I THOUGHT VERY CAREFULLY, THAT'S WHAT I DID, I STUDIED THE SITUATION AND I KNEW WHAT I WAS DOING.

I FELT LIKE I KNEW WHAT I WAS DOING AND IT TURNED OUT THAT I DID.

>> AND AFTER YOU CREATED CNN IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH ALREADY CREATED YOUR EVOLUTION, DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS LIKE WHEN YOU WERE SHUT OUT, WHEN CNN WAS SHUT OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, FOR INSTANCE?

>> IT WASN'T VERY LONG.

WE SUED THE PRESIDENT.

>> YOU SUED THE PRESIDENT?

>> AND THE GOVERNMENT AND THE SUPREME COURT HEARD THE STORY RIGHT QUICK AND VOTED IN OUR FAVOR.

>> SO THEN CNN CAMERAS COULD GO AND COVER THE WHITE HOUSE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

>> RIGHT.

THAT'S ALL WE WERE ASKING.

ITS EQUAL ACCESS.

>> YOU SAID THAT OF ALL THE THINGS YOU'VE DONE, AND YOU'VE DONE A LOT, THAT CNN IS THE BUSINESS ACHIEVEMENT OF WHICH YOU ARE THE MOST PROUD.

>> YES.

>> 10 YEARS LATER WAS THE GULF WAR, WHEN CNN REALLY EXPLODED INTO THE INTERNATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS, INTO THE GLOBAL -- >> WE WERE THE ONLY ONES WHO WERE COVERING THE WAR LIVE FROM BEHIND THE LINES.

>> DO YOU REMEMBER ALL THE PUSHBACK YOU GOT, FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, FROM THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, FROM ALL THESE PEOPLE THAT CALLED YOU UP AND SAID, TED, GET YOUR PEOPLE OUT OF BAGHDAD?

>> THE PRESIDENT DIDN'T CALL ME.

HE CALLED TOM JOHNSON BUT THE WORD GOT TO ME.

>> DID YOU EVER THINK OF OBEYING THOSE ORDERS?

>> I COULDN'T DO IT BECAUSE IT WAS TOO IMPORTANT AND I SAID AS LONG AS WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT VOLUNTEER TO STAY AND PETER ARNETT VOLUNTEERED.

>> AND BERNIE SHAW AND JOHN HOLLIMAN.

>> LET'S DESCRIBE TO OUR VIEWERS WHAT WE ARE SEEING.

THE SKIES OVER BAGHDAD HAVE BEEN ILLUMINATED.

WE ARE SEEING BRIGHT FLASHES GOING OFF ALL OVER THE SKY .

>> BERNIE REALLY GOT CAUGHT THERE.

HE GOT OUT THE NEXT DAY.

HE WAS ONLY THERE THE FIRST DAY.

>> IT IS LEGENDARY WHAT THEY DID THAT NIGHT.

>> OH YEAH, THAT WAS IT.

>> AND THEN EVERYBODY ELSE TOOK CNN.

>> RIGHT.

>> FAST-FORWARD ALL THESE YEARS TO NOW.

THERE IS A LOT OF POLITICS THAT'S INVOLVED, EVENING NEWS COVERAGE, AND PEOPLE CAN CRITICIZE.

THEY CAN SAY, WELL, WE WERE ON THE SIDE OF THE ROCKIES, WHY WEREN'T YOU PATRIOTIC AMERICANS?

WHAT WERE YOU DOING IN THE ENEMY CAMP?

WHY WERE YOU BEHIND ENEMY LINES?

WHAT DO YOU SAY TODAY TO PEOPLE WHO STILL ASK THAT QUESTION?

>> THEY DON'T ASK IT.

>> NOT JUST ABOUT THIS STORY.

>> WE CHANGED THE WAY THINGS WERE DONE.

IT WASN'T --WE WEREN'T ANTI- AMERICAN.

WE WERE JUST PROTRUDES.

>> AND WERE YOU PRO-TRUTH WHEN YOU TOOK UP THE INVITATION FOR FIDEL CASTRO DECADES AGO, TO ACTUALLY GO TO CUBA AND SEE WHAT THIS GUY WAS ALL ABOUT?

WHAT MADE YOU GO THERE?

WAS THAT ABOUT PRO -- >> CURIOSITY, THAT'S WHAT MADE US GO EVERYWHERE.

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WATCH THE NEWS FOR, BECAUSE THEY'RE CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON.

>> DID YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF FIDEL CASTRO?

>> I THOUGHT HE WAS PRETTY COLORFUL.

>> DID YOU CHANGE YOUR OPINION?

>> HE HAD A LOT OF COURAGE TO TACKLE THE UNITED STATES, BEING SO CLOSE TO US.

>> DID YOU CHANGE YOUR OPINION AT ALL WHEN YOU GOT DOWN THERE?

I MEAN YOUR FATHER WAS VERY STRONGLY ANTI-COMMUNIST, LIKE MOST AMERICANS.

>> I WAS, TOO.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH SOMEBODY POLITICALLY ON EVERYTHING THAT THEY FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE WORSE.

>> AND YOU ALSO SAID, AFTER THIS EYE-OPENING TRIP TO CUBA, I FLEW HOME WITH A WHOLE NEW DESIRE TO UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT OTHER CULTURES AND POLITICAL SYSTEMS, AND TO DO WHAT I COULD TO INCREASE COMMUNICATION AND DIALOGUE BETWEEN NATION.

>> YEAH.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?

>> NOTHING.

BUT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY MUCH.

DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE STILL THAT COMMITTED TO DOING PRECISELY THAT?

>> MAYBE NOT QUITE AS COMMITTED AS I WAS.

>> YOUR WHOLE ETHERS WAS ABOUT TRYING TO BUILD BRIDGES BETWEEN NATIONS, ESPECIALLY WITH THE GOODWILL GAMES, WHEN YOU TRIED TO BUILD BRIDGES BETWEEN THEN SOVIET UNION AND THE UNITED STATES.

>> DURING THE 20 YEARS OF THE GOODWILL GAMES WE NEVER HAD BETTER RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA.

>> JUST REMIND ME, WHO WAS YOUR GUIDE THEN?

WASN'T IT THE YOUNG VLADIMIR PUTIN?

>> VICE MAYOR OF ST.

PETERSBURG.

WE GOT THE GAMES THERE.

FORGET WHAT YEAR IT WAS BUT IT WAS WHEN HE WAS THERE.

>> WHAT DID YOU THINK OF HIM AT THAT POINT?

>> SEEMED LIKE A PRETTY CAPABLE, COMPETENT GUY.

>> DOES IT SURPRISE YOU THAT NOW THAT HE'S PRESIDENT, ALL THE YEARS THESE YEARS LATER, THERE IS REAL ANTIPATHY BETWEEN HIM, RUSSIA, AND THE UNITED STATES?

>> IT'S TERRIBLE.

I'M THE GUY WHO BELIEVES WE LEARNED WE'VE GOT TO GET ALONG, PARTICULARLY THE COUNTRIES THAT WE CANNOT AFFORD TO GET IN CONFLICT WITH RUSSIA AND BECAUSE OF THEIR NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND CHINA.

>> SO DURING THIS CRISIS BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, AND THE RATE AGAINST THE WEST, SOMETHING THAT I THOUGHT WAS UNTHINKABLE HAPPENED.

PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS ONE WAY OR ANOTHER RAISED THE SPECTER OF QUOTE/UNQUOTE THE NUCLEAR OPTION AND I CERTAINLY NEVER THOUGHT IN MY LIFE, PARTICULARLY AFTER THE COLD WAR, THAT THIS WOULD BE A POSSIBILITY.

AND YOU, WHO SPENT SO MUCH OF YOUR LIFE TRYING TO SECURE NUCLEAR WEAPONS WITH THE NUCLEAR THREAT INITIATIVE, CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN 2015?

>> IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE BUT WE ARE BOTH GUILTY.

THE ONLY THING THAT WE CAN DO IS HAVE TOTAL NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT.

EITHER WE ALL HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS OR WE ALL DON'T HAVE THEM, AND I'M IN REAL FAVOR OF NOT HAVING THEM.

WE SHOULD GET RID OF ALL OF THEM AND SIGN A TREATY THAT WE'LL NEVER MESS WITH THEM AGAIN.

WE DON'T WANT TO DESTROY THE WORLD.

IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS SITUATION.

THOSE BOMBS ARE SO POWERFUL THAT JUST A FEW OF THEM WILL KILL LIFE ON EARTH AND WE'VE GOT THOUSANDS OF THEM ON HAIRTRIGGER ALERT.

>> DO YOU WORRY THAT THERE COULD BE AN ACCIDENT?

>> YES.

THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS ACCIDENTS BUT FORTUNATELY NONE HAVE TRIGGERED AN EXPLOSION YET.

BUT IT COULD HAPPEN AT ANY TIME.

JUST LOOK AT HOW WE DO WITH AIRLINE TRAVEL.

WE WORK SO HARD ALL OVER THE WORLD TO MAKE OUR PLANES SAFE AND EVEN WITH THAT, EVERY MONTH ONE CRASHES SOMEWHERE IN THE WORLD AND SO IF THAT CAN HAPPEN WITH OUR AIRLINES, IT CAN SURE HAPPEN WITH OUR NUCLEAR WEAPON.

WE'VE GOT TO GET RID OF THEM.

IT'S JUST LIKE HAVING DYNAMITE IN YOUR BASEMENT .

WE GOT TO WORK ON THINGS THAT MAKE OUR LIVES BETTER, NOT THE THINGS THAT MAKE OUR LIVES WORSE, AND WEAPONS AND ARMIES AND AIRCRAFT CARRIERS ARE JUST A WASTE OF MONEY AND A WASTE OF TIME.

IT'S TIME TO PUT WERE BEHIND US.

WE MADE ENOUGH PROGRESS TO WHERE WE CAN SAY GOODBYE TO WAR AND SAY HELLO TO COOPERATION AND WORKING TOGETHER.

>> YOU CAN SAY THAT BECAUSE YOU'RE 76 YEARS OLD AND YOU HAVE BEEN FIGHTING THROUGH THIS.

>> I'VE BEEN SAYING IT ALL MY LIFE, TOO.

I WAS SAYING THIS 50 YEARS AGO.

>> WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO THE YOUNG ENTREPRENEURS OF TODAY WHO ARE WONDERING WHERE TO INVEST THEIR ENERGY, WHERE TO PUT THEIR CREATIVITY?

YOU SEIZED CABLE BEFORE CABLE WAS COOL, AS THE AD WENT.

WHAT DID YOU SAY TO PEOPLE TODAY?

WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT AREA OF BUSINESS ENDEAVOR?

>> A CHANCE TO MAKE A FORTUNE, ENERGY, CLEAN, RENEWABLE ENERGY IS THE BIGGEST SINGLE PRIZE BECAUSE MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD DON'T HAVE CLEAN, RENEWABLE ENERGY.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE SKEPTICS WHO SAY THERE MAY BE SOME CLIMATE CHANGE GOING ON BUT A, IT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH US AND B, TRYING TO FIX IT WITH ALTERNATIVE ENERGY IS JUST ECONOMICALLY NOT VIABLE.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM?

>> I'D SAY --I HATE TO SAY THIS BUT I THINK YOU'RE WRONG.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK A LITTLE BIT FURTHER.

YOU WENT TO BROWN UNIVERSITY TO STUDY THE CLASSICS.

>> NO.

>> NO.

>> I WENT THERE BECAUSE MY FATHER WANTED ME TO GO AND I HATED SCHOOL AND I GOT IN THERE.

>> YOUR FATHER WANTED YOU TO GO TO AN IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL AND YOU GOT IN.

THAT'S WHY YOU WENT.

>> I DIDN'T PLAN TO STUDY THE CLASSICS WHEN I FIRST WENT TO BROWN.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS GOING TO STUDY.

>> YOU DID STUDY THE CLASSICS, RIGHT?

>> I ENDED UP GOING THAT WAY BECAUSE IT WAS INSPIRATIONAL FOR ME.

>> IN WHAT WAY?

>> WELL THE GRANDIOSE PLANS OF THE CLASSICS.

HORATIO AT THE BRIDGE, AND STEPPED FORWARD HORATIO'S, THE CAPTAIN OF THE GATE.

HE SAID TO EVERY MAN OR WOMAN BORN, DEATH, US SOON OR LATE AND HOW CAN MAN DIED BETTER THAN FACING FEARFUL ODDS WITH THE ASHES OF HIS FATHERS IN A TEMPLE FOR HIS GODS.

HEW DOWN THE BRIDGE, SIR COUNSEL, WITH ALL THE SPEED YOU MAY.

I WITH BUT TWO BESIDE ME WILL HOLD THE FULL IN PLAY.

SPAN 1000 MIGHT WILL BE STOPPED BY THREE.

NOW WHO WILL STAND ON EITHER HAND AND GUARD THE BRIDGE WITH ME?

I LIKE THAT.

>> I LIKE THAT, TOO.

>> I SIGNED UP FOR CLASSICS, SAID HERE I AM, HEW DOWN THE BRIDGE.

>> THIS LETTER FROM YOUR DAD WHEN YOU DECLARED CLASSICS YOUR MAJOR, HE SAID, MY DEAR SON, I'M APPALLED EVEN HORRIFIED THAT YOU'VE ADOPTED CLASSICS AS A MAJOR.

>> I KNOW, I KNOW.

>> AS A MATTER OF FACT, I ALMOST PUKED.

>> ON THE WAY HOME TODAY.

>> YOU REMEMBER THE LETTER.

>> OF COURSE I REMEMBER.

>> RAPIDLY BECOMING A [ BLEEP ], KNOWN AS A .

>> I SENT YOU THAT.

>> WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU GOT THAT LETTER FROM YOUR OWN DAD?

>> I WAS MORE AMUSED THAN ANYTHING BECAUSE I SAW THE VALUE IN CLASSICS.

>> BUT WHAT WOULD'VE HAPPENED HAD YOU STUCK WITH THE CLASSICS?

WOULD THERE HAVE BEEN A CNN?

WOULD THERE HAVE BEEN A NUCLEAR THREAT INITIATIVE?

WOULD THERE HAVE BEEN A GOODWILL GAMES?

>> I DID STICK WITH THE CLASSICS.

I STUCK WITH THE CLASSICS AND THEY WERE WITH ME.

I WAS INSPIRED TO STAND AT THAT BRIDGE.

>> CAN YOU DO SHAKESPEARE?

>> A LITTLE BIT.

>> DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING YOU'D LIKE TO DECLAIM?

>> THIS IS, I THINK, RICHARD III, ANYWAYS, ONE OF THE RICHARDS.

MY HONOR IS MY LIFE.

WE LIVE IN ONE.

TAKE HONOR FROM ME AND MY LIFE IS DONE.

THEN PRAY, MY LEASH, MY HONOR LET ME TRY.

FOR THAT I LIVE.

FOR THAT WILL I DIE.

AND I'VE LIVED WITH THAT AS NOT ONE BLEMISH ON MY HONOR IN MY ENTIRE 76 YEAR CAREER.

NOT ONCE.

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU HEARD PROTESTERS SAYING GET RID OF TURNER'S, YOU KNOW, CORRUPTION?

NEVER PAID ANYBODY OFF.

NEVER.

AND IN THE NEWS BUSINESS, THERE WERE TIMES WHEN PUTTING A LITTLE MONEY ON THE TABLE WOULD GET YOU SOME ACCESS THAT YOU WOULDN'T GET OTHERWISE.

IT'S VERY EASY TO SLIP IN TO OFF, CORRUPTION.

VERY EASY.

BUT I RESISTED IT ALL THE WAY ALONG.

NOT ONE TIME.

>> WHAT DO YOU MOST WANT TO BE REMEMBERED FOR?

>> THE GOOD THINGS I'VE DONE.

>> WHAT'S YOUR PROUDEST ACHIEVEMENT?

>> MY FAMILY FIRST AND OUTSIDE MY FAMILY, CNN.

>> AND WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU HAVE FOR ANY YOUNG PERSON WHO CAME TO SAY, TED, YOU'VE DONE IT ALL, WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME?

>> CLEAN ENERGY.

>> TED TURNER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> YOU'RE QUITE WELCOME.

>> CHRISTIANA IS BACK WITH US AND CHRISTIANE, JUST WATCHING THAT, I'M NOT SURE IF YOU ARE AWARE BUT I ACTUALLY HAVE A MONITOR WHERE I CAN SEE YOU AND YOUR REACTION THROUGHOUT THAT INTERVIEW.

AND I'M JUST CURIOUS, I WOULD IMAGINE SO MANY EMOTIONS WERE GOING THROUGH YOUR HEAD.

WHAT STOOD OUT TO ME WERE SO MANY OF THE TOPICS THAT HE RAISED, ALMOST 11 YEARS AGO, THAT ARE SO RELEVANT.

TOP OF MIND TODAY, NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT, CORRUPTION IN POWER , CLIMATE CHANGE, YOU CAN GO ON AND ON AND ON.

HOW DID YOU FEEL WATCHING THAT?

>> WELL I WAS LISTENING AND QUITE EMOTIONAL BUT I THINK IT'S OKAY BECAUSE HE WAS SO GREAT AND I LAUGHED AT SOME OF THE THINGS HE WAS SAYING, ESPECIALLY THE LETTER I READ TO HIM FROM HIS FATHER, THAT HE COULD STILL QUOTE.

I THINK IT'S PHENOMENAL WHAT HE TALKED ABOUT AT THE END, QUOTING SHAKESPEARE, QUOTING HORATIO AT THE BRIDGE, TALKING ABOUT HONOR, TALKING ABOUT HOW HE NEVER HAD HIS HONOR BLEMISHED, AND IT'S SOMETHING INCREDIBLE BECAUSE WE KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO BE A VERY HONEST CAPITALIST, A VERY HONEST ENTREPRENEUR.

WE KNOW HOW CORRUPTION AFFECTS SO MUCH OF THE WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY.

AND I THINK IT'S REALLY, REALLY AMAZING TO HAVE HEARD HIM SAY THAT THAT WAS ONE OF HIS PROUDEST ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

I THOUGHT THAT WHAT HE TOLD YOUNG PEOPLE, AND GOD, IF PEOPLE HAD DONE IT, AND REALLY DONE THE RENEWABLE ENERGY, WE WOULDN'T BE OVER A BARREL IN THE MIDDLE EAST LIKE WE ARE RIGHT NOW, IN THE STRAITS OF HORMUZ.

HE WAS SO VISIONARY ABOUT EVERYTHING, AND I KNOW WE'VE SAID IT OVER AGAIN BUT JUST LISTENING TO HIM, AND THAT WAS 10 YEARS AGO , YOU JUST THOUGHT, WOW, HE KNOWS SO MUCH, HE'S SEEN SO MUCH, HE'S DONE SO MUCH, HE'S PUT HIS MONEY LITERALLY WHERE HIS MOUTH IS, HE HAS LED PEOPLE, HE HAS LED ON HUGE ISSUES THAT ARE TOTALLY RELEVANT AND IMPORTANT TO THE WORLD, AND ESPECIALLY TODAY.

AND I WILL SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE PEOPLE THINK THAT WHAT WE ARE DOING IS HAGIOGRAPHY.

WILL I'M PROUD TO BE HAGIOGRAPHY RISING TED TURNER BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO WAS A BETTER BOSS, WHO YOU COULD ADMIRE UNRESERVEDLY AND YOU COULD FOLLOW OVER --WELL NOT OVER THE CLIFF BUT INTO THE BREACH AND BEYOND.

SO I JUST THINK IT'S REALLY EXTRAORDINARY TO LISTEN TO HIM 10 YEARS AGO AND I KNOW HE THOUGHT THAT ALL HIS CAREER, AND I HOPE YOUNG PEOPLE OR CERTAINLY YOUNG JOURNALISTS CAN GET SOME INSPIRATION, OR YOUNG ENTREPRENEURS OR JUST YOUNG PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN CIVICS AND SOCIETY BECAUSE HE BELIEVED IN COMMUNITY AND HE NEVER LOST HIS HOPE.

>> A TRUE RENAISSANCE MAN.

I LOVE HOW YOU NOTED IN AN INTERVIEW THAT HE DEMOCRATIZED INFORMATION THROUGH A 24 HOUR NEWS MODEL.

>> HE DID.

>> THAT HE CREATED HIMSELF.

AND LIKE ALL OF US, PROVING HOW MORTAL HE IS, TO REMEMBER SOME OF THE HARSH WORDS THAT OUR PARENTS HAD SAID TO US.

SO MANY, SO MANY YEARS AGO, WORD FOR WORD.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR THIS BRILLIANT INTERVIEW AND A REFLECTION ON WHAT AN ICON THIS MAN WAS FOR THE NEWS INDUSTRY, REALLY FOR THE WORLD.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> I THINK WE ALL OWE HIM A DEBT OF GRATITUDE.

THE WORLD DOES.

THE NEWS INDUSTRY DOES AND CERTAINLY ALL OF US AT CNN DO.

>> WELL SAID.

NOW, IS THIS THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR THE WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

A REGIONAL SOURCE HAS TOLD CNN THE U. S. AND IRAN ARE CLOSING IN ON AGREEING TO A SHORT MEMORANDUM AIMED TO END THE WAR.

IT WILL TRIGGER A 30 DAY NEGOTIATION PERIOD ON THE HARDER ISSUES, FROM URANIUM ENRICHMENT TO THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

MEANWHILE, IRAN'S TOP DIPLOMAT MET HIS COUNTERPART IN CHINA JUST DAYS BEFORE PRESIDENT TRUMP ZONE MEETING WITH XI JINPING IN BEIJING.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE U. S. OPERATION TO GUIDE COMMERCIAL SHIPS THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, DUBBED PROJECT FREEDOM, IS ON PAUSE JUST SOME 48 HOURS AFTER IT BEGAN.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IT'S DUE TO DIPLOMATIC PROGRESS, THOUGH HE RON KLAIN THE U. S. IS BACKING DOWN.

TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS LET'S BRING IN DANNY CITRINOWICZ FOR HIS ANALYSIS.

HE'S A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE INSTITUTE FOR NATIONAL SECURITY STUDIES AND FORMER HEAD OF THE IRAN BRANCH OF ISRAELI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE.

HE'S WELL-PLACED TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS AND IS JOINING ME NOW FROM TEL AVIV.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS LATEST REPORTING THAT THE U. S. AND IRAN ARE CLOSING IN ON A 14 POINT VALUE, TRADING SANCTIONS RELIEF, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 12 TO 15 YEAR MORATORIUM ON NUCLEAR ENRICHMENT FOR THAT SANCTIONS RELIEF AND OPENING UP THE STRAIT.

YOU WROTE ON X THAT IF THIS DEAL IS ACTUALLY SIGNED, IT WOULD BE A FITTING END TO A CAMPAIGN THAT BEGAN AS EPIC THEORY AND IS ENDING AS EPIC DISASTER.

EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I'LL TRY TO EXPLAIN.

I'LL TRY TO REALLY HIGHLIGHT WHAT I MEANT WITH THIS TWEET.

ACTUALLY WE HAVE TWO REMEMBER WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THIS CAMPAIGN.

FIRST AND FOREMOST TO TOPPLE THE REGIME.

THIS IS WHY, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, ISRAEL DECAPITATED A LEADER OF ANOTHER COUNTRY.

NOW WHERE WE ARE STANDING RIGHT NOW IS AN AGREEMENT THAT IF IT WILL BE SIGNED, ACTUALLY WILL STRENGTHEN THE SAME RESUME THAT WE WANTED TO TOPPLE.

THERE WILL BE LIFTING OF SANCTIONS SO THE REGIME WILL BE EMBOLDENED.

NOBODY WILL DISCUSS ITS MISSILES AND ITS AID TO ITS PROXIES AND IT WILL GET THE RIGHT TO ENRICH URANIUM.

SO THE BOTTOM LINE OF THINGS IS THE FACT THAT I THINK THIS CAMPAIGN ACTUALLY FAILED.

EVEN MORE THAN THAT THEY WILL SAY THAT UNFORTUNATELY THIS IS THE ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION TO END THIS WAR BECAUSE WITHOUT COMPROMISING WITH IRAN, THEN ESCALATION WOULD BE INEVITABLE AND EVEN IT WILL BE AN ESCALATION, IRAN WILL CAPITULATE SO WE'RE IN A VERY METAL SITUATION RIGHT NOW WHERE TO STRENGTHEN THE REGIME BY AN AGREEMENT OR RETURNING BACK TO WORK AT THE END OF THE DAY WILL BE NEGOTIATION WITH THE SAME BY THE IRANIANS.

THIS IS WHERE WE ARE AND THIS IS WHY IT'S SUCH A FAILURE.

>> THE PRESIDENT SAYING THAT HE THINKS IRAN WANTS A DEAL RIGHT NOW.

HE THINKS THEY ARE SPEAKING WITH THE DECISION-MAKERS, THE RIGHT DECISION-MAKERS.

WE'VE HEARD THIS LANGUAGE FROM HIM AS WELL AS HE'S ALSO NOTED DIVISIONS WITHIN LEADERSHIP NOW IN IRAN.

SO CAN TEHRAN ACTUALLY DELIVER A CONSENSUS IF THIS DEAL DOES MOVE FORWARD OR DO YOU THINK THEY ARE PERHAPS JUST BUYING TIME?

>> WELL WE WENT DOWN THAT ROAD BEFORE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DISCUSSED THOSE ISSUES.

HAVE TO SAY ONE THING, EXTREMELY IMPORTANT I NEED TO HIGHLIGHT.

THE PROBLEM WITH IRAN DECISION- MAKING IS NOT THE FRICTION WITHIN THE LEADERSHIP.

SINCE THE DAWN OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN WE HAD [ INAUDIBLE ].

THE PROBLEM IS FIRST AND FOREMOST THE POSITION OF THE IRANIANS, MEANING THAT THEY DON'T NEED, IN THEIR EYES, TO CAPITULATE, AND THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

IN ORDER TO REACH AN AGREEMENT, U. S. WILL HAVE TO COMPROMISE WITH IRAN BECAUSE IRAN IS NOT READY TO SHOW ANY COMPROMISE AND ITS REDLINE [ INAUDIBLE ] >> DANNY, I THINK WE -- >> WE NEED TO HIGHLIGHT AGAIN AND AGAIN.

>> I CAN HEAR YOU NOW, WE LOST YOU FOR A SECOND.

>> I THINK THAT WE SHOULD HIGHLIGHT AGAIN AND AGAIN THIS PROBLEM.

THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE FRICTION WITHIN THE REGIME ITSELF BUT THE POSITION, IN THE END OF THE DAY HE'S NOT READY TO CAPITULATE AND THIS IS A PROBLEM WE ARE FACING.

FRICTION IN THE PAST WOULD BE IN THE FUTURE.

THE CENTRALIZED REGIME HAS CONTROL OF THE I RGC BUT THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THE POSITION THEY'RE PRESENTING AND NEGOTIATION WOULD BE VERY HARD TO CHANGE EVEN IF THE U. S. RETURNED BACK TO WAR.

>> HOW MUCH DAMAGE HAS THE WAR AND NOW WEEKS OF A BLOCKADE IMPOSED ON IRAN?

BECAUSE WE SEE THE REALITY IN FREEFALL, TRADE IS DOWN SOME 80% FROM THE COUNTRY, THE BLOCKADE IS STRAINING THE REGIME OF AN ESTIMATED 400 TO 500 MILLION DOLLARS EVERY SINGLE DAY.

THERE'S NO DOUBT THERE'S INFRASTRUCTURE DAMAGE THAT WAS CAUSED BY THE 13,000 STRIKES THAT IRAN ABSORBED OVER THE COURSE OF THAT WAR, IN ADDITION TO THE ECONOMIC DAMAGE THAT THE COUNTRY WAS ALREADY IN PRIOR TO THE WAR, MUCH LESS THE POSITION IT'S IN RIGHT NOW.

SO WHAT IS THE CURRENT STATE INTERNALLY FOR THE COUNTRY?

>> DEFINITELY THE REGIME HAS WE CAN FROM THE BLOCKADE.

THIS IS ONE OF.

THE SECOND THING, EVEN MORE PORTLY, EVERYTHING RELATED TO WHAT HAPPENED IN THE WAR ITSELF WHEN ISRAEL AND THE U. S. COMBINED TOGETHER AND ATTACK.

SIGNIFICANTLY THE REGIME WAS WEAKENED BUT THIS IS NOT THE QUESTION.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THE REGIME IS WILLING TO CAPITULATE BECAUSE OF THE DAMAGES THEY ABSORBED AND THE ANSWER FOR THAT IS NO.

WE WORK OUT AND WILL SAY YES, IRAN WILL FIND IT VERY HARD TO STOP THE OIL AND EXPORT THE OIL.

THIS IS NOT THE QUESTION.

THE QUESTION IS NOT WHETHER IT HAS AN IMPACT.

IT HAS AN IMPACT BUT IT'S NOT THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE BLOCKADE.

THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE BLOCKADE IS TO MAKE SURE THAT IRAN CAPITULATE AT THE NEGOTIATION TABLE AND THAT WON'T HAPPEN.

THE IRANIANS, AS WE SAW YESTERDAY, WILL BE ESCALATING, ATTACKING RATHER THAN CAPITULATE TO U. S. DEMANDS.

THIS IS THE MAIN PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW SO YES, THEY ARE WEAK, THEY'VE GOTTEN WEAKER SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY ARE NOT READY TO CAPITULATE.

THIS IS THE PROBLEM WE ARE FACING.

>> HE ALSO WARNED THAT WASHINGTON IS STRUGGLING TO PRESENT A CREDIBLE THREAT.

YOU MENTIONED THE ATTACKS, SOME 15 MISSILES AT THE UAE OVER THE LAST TWO DAYS AND YET THE UNITED STATES RESPONDING ALMOST IN A MUTED FASHION AND SAYING THAT EVEN THE ATTACKS, FORGET THE UAE BUT ON U. S. ASSETS DID NOT MEET THE THRESHOLD FOR BREAKING THE CEASE-FIRE.

HOW IS THAT VIEWED WITHIN THE REGIME?

>> DEFINITELY THEY THINK OF THE SUCCESS.

FOR THEM THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP STOPPED THE CAMPAIGN, OPERATION FREEDOM, TRYING TO TAKE THE TANKERS OUT FROM THE HORMUZ STRAIT, FOR THEM IT'S A SUCCESS AND IT'S CONNECTED TO THE FACT THAT THEY USE VIOLENCE, THIS IS WHAT THEY THINK.

SEEING STRATEGIC IMPROVISATION BY THE ADMINISTRATION ITSELF.

THROUGH THIS OPERATION, LOOKING FOR [ INAUDIBLE ] THAT WILL CHANGE EVERYTHING, IT WASN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

THE IRANIAN ISSUE IS TOO COMPLEX THAT YOU CAN FIND A SOLUTION, A SILVER BULLET SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM.

THE ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO REACH AN AGREEMENT WITH THE IRANIANS IT WILL HAVE TO COMPROMISE.

IF THEY RETURN BACK TO WHERE THE DAMAGE WILL BE SIGNIFICANT IN IRAN AND IN THE GULF STATES BUT IRAN WON'T CAPITULATE.

THIS REGIME IS WILLING TO SACRIFICE ITS OWN GREATER GOOD, ITS OWN POPULATION FOR SURVIVAL.

THAT IS WHY EVERYTHING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL THREAT OR EVEN USE WON'T CHANGE THE BASIC SITUATION THAT WE HAVE WITH THIS REGIME.

THIS REGIME IS NO VENEZUELA.

THIS REGIME IS SOMETHING THAT IS UNIQUE BUT THE UNITED STATES I THINK IN THE PAST, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU NEED TO ADJUST AND AS I SAID AT THE BEGINNING, AT THE END OF THE DAY IF THE ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO REACH AN AGREEMENT WITH IRAN IT CANNOT DICTATE THE CONDITIONS BECAUSE FROM THE IRANIAN STANDPOINT THEY HAVE THE UPPER HAND.

>> DANNY CITRINOWICZ, WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW TO A TROUBLING FEATURE OF U. S. HISTORY.

BLACKFACE, A DEHUMANIZING CARICATURE OF BLACK AMERICANS, BECAME A STAPLE OF ENTERTAINMENT IN THE 19th CENTURY.

OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUED THE IMPACTS OF THIS DEROGATORY PRACTICE ARE STILL BEING FELT.

IN HER NEW BOOK, RAILING BARNES TRACES THE TOXIC ROOTS OF BLACKFACE AND HOW IT SEEPED INTO SO MANY PARTS OF AMERICAN LIFE.

SHE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HER 20 YEARS OF RESEARCH AND WHY THIS CONVERSATION IS STILL SO IMPORTANT TODAY.

JUST A NOTE, PARTS OF THIS INTERVIEW MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME VIEWERS.

>> PROFESSOR RAILING BARNES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> HOW ON EARTH DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN THE SUBJECT OF BLACKFACE?

>> ABSOLUTELY, SO FOR ME IT HAD ALWAYS BEEN THERE.

I GREW UP IN ANAHEIM, CALIFORNIA, RIGHT IN THE SHADOW OF DISNEYLAND.

VERY MUCH A UNION OF A WORKING- CLASS FAMILY, AND DURING THE 1992 L. A. UPRISINGS, WHICH SPILLED INTO LONG BEACH AND ORANGE COUNTY, AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GREAT IDEA TO BRING THE SCHOOLCHILDREN IN TO DISNEYLAND AS A SAFE PLACE AND WE WERE INCREDIBLY RACIALLY DIVERSE AS A CLASS.

AND ONE OF MY SORT OF VIVID MEMORIES OF RACIAL CONSCIOUSNESS WAS BEING ON MAIN STREET USA WITH MY BEST FRIEND, WHO IS BLACK, I WAS A LITTLE WHITE GIRL, AND WE WERE WATCHING THE CLASSIC STEAMBOAT WILLIE, AND EARLY MICKEY MOUSE CARTOONS, AND IN ONE OF THEM MICKEY MOUSE DECIDES HE WANTS TO PUT ON A MINSTREL SHOW.

HE WANTS TO DO A REINTERPRETATION OF HARRIET BEECHER STOWE'S UNCLE TOM'S CABIN WITH SINGING AND DANCING TO DIXIE AND HE TAKES A STICK OF DYNAMITE, PUTS IT IN HIS MOUTH AND BLOWS HIS FACE UP INTO BLACKFACE, AND WE WERE JUST STANDING THERE AS THE CITY WAS SORT OF IMPLODING, AND I JUST REMEMBER THINKING, OH, RACE IS FAKE, THIS IS MADE UP, AND FROM THAT MOMENT ON I COULDN'T UNSEAT RACIAL PRESENTATION AND BLACKFACE THEN ONCE I GOT TO COLLEGE I WAS IN HISTORY CLASS.

IT WAS ABOUT AMERICAN SLAVERY AND CULTURE AND THERE'S 30 BOOKS ABOUT BLACKFACE THAT HAD BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT ANTEBELLUM AMERICA, SO BEFORE THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR, AND THEY ALL ARGUED THAT EITHER AT THE END OF THE CIVIL WAR OR BY DETERRENT OF 1900, BLACKFACE DECLINED, THAT IT WAS SUBSUMED INTO THINGS LIKE TELEVISION AND RADIO.

BUT AS A STANDALONE THEATRICAL PERFORMANCE, DISAPPEARED, AND I THOUGHT, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

I SEE IT ALL THE TIME AT DISNEYLAND AND KNOTTS BERRY FARM AND IN MY DAILY LIFE.

THAT REALLY STARTED THE IMPETUS TO DOCUMENT HOW, IN FACT, IT NOT ONLY EXISTED IN THE 20th CENTURY, BUT IN THE 19th CENTURY, 20,000 SHOWS, IN THE 20th CENTURY IT'S 1 MILLION SHOWS A YEAR, AND SO THAT REALLY -- >> THAT'S CRAZY.

THERE ARE JUST SO MANY THINGS, JUST THAT RIGHT THERE.

THE FACT THAT THE NUMBER OF SHOWS ACTUALLY INCREASED, WHAT EXPLAINS THAT?

>> PART OF WHY I WAS CONFUSED WAS THE JIM CROW ERA, WHICH STARTS IN 1896, FORMALLY, WHICH IS AN ERA OF RACIAL TERROR AND LEGISLATIVE WHITE SUPREMACY IN THE UNITED STATES.

JIM CROW IS THE NAME OF THE MOST FAMOUS BLACKFACE CHARACTER, WHO COMES ON THE STAGE IN THE UNITED STATES IN 1928, GLOBALIZE IS AN AMERICAN CULTURE BY 1840.

SO I THOUGHT, HOW COULD IT AND IF THE ENTIRE REGIME IN AMERICAN SOCIETY IS ACTUALLY NAMED AFTER THIS CHARACTER?

ONE THING I DISCOVERED THAT WAS REALLY CRITICAL, NUMB TWO THINGS, IS IN THE 19th CENTURY WE HAD PROFESSIONAL BLACKFACE CELEBRITIES AND THESE ARE TRULY GLOBAL CELEBRITIES.

SO YOU WOULD GO TO BROADWAY OR THE BOWERY AND YOU WOULD SEE THEM PERFORM, WHETHER IT WAS STANDUP COMEDY, TAP DANCING, BANJO, FIDDLING, BUT DUE TO THE INCREDIBLE DEMAND AND ALSO THE EXPLOSION OF MULTIMEDIA TECHNOLOGY, WHETHER IT WAS THE INVENTION OF LITHOGRAPHY, PHOTOGRAPHY, SHEET MUSIC, IT STARTS TO DEMOCRATIZE POOR, AMATEUR, AND HOME USE AND BASICALLY PUBLISHING HOW TO BLACKFACE GUIDES.

AND WHAT'S SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THAT IS ALL OF A SUDDEN THE AMERICAN PUBLIC SHIFTS FROM BEING PASSIVE CONSUMERS WHERE THEY MIGHT SEE A SHOW ONCE A YEAR TO ALL OF A SUDDEN BEING ASKED IN PLACES LIKE SCHOOLS OR CHURCHES TO LEARN HOW TO PHYSICALLY EMBODY THEIR OWN REPRESENTATION OF BLACK STEREOTYPES.

AND THAT REALLY CHANGES IN RELATIONSHIP TO CARICATURE, AND THE OTHER SORT OF SECOND MAJOR THING THAT HAPPENS IS DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION, PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT FEDERALIZE HIS BLACKFACE, AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THROUGH THE WORKS PROGRESS ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IS A BRILLIANT PROGRAM THAT PUT ALIENS OF AMERICANS BACK TO WORK, INCLUDING WRITERS, ARTISTS, COMPOSERS, SET DESIGNERS, HE FELT THAT BLACKFACE WAS THE ONE TRUE CULTURAL FORM OF AMERICAN ENTERTAINMENT THAT HE WORRIED WAS BEING LOST DURING THE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE.

AND SO HE HAD THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GO OUT AND DO WHAT I CALL A BLACKFACE BAILOUT, WHERE HE BOUGHT OUT ALL OF THE PUBLISHING HOUSES, THEM UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND THAT FEDERALIZE IS IT.

IT PUTS ALL OF THIS MATERIAL INTO PUBLIC DOMAIN AND THAT'S HOW IT ENDS UP IN OUR SCHOOLBOOKS.

>> HE EVEN WROTE ONE, I LEARNED FROM YOU.

HE EVEN WROTE A BLACKFACE.

JUST --I FEEL LIKE MY HEAD IS GOING TO EXPLODE.

>> WELCOME .

>> HOW DID THE BLACKFACE THING ALL START?

>> SO IN 1828 A STRUGGLING ACTOR AT THE TIME CALLED TBD RICE WAS IN THE OHIO RIVER VALLEY, PRIMARILY IN KENTUCKY, AND HE WAS BACKSTAGE, AND HE ENCOUNTERED AN ENSLAVED MAN WHO WAS DISABLED, AND HE HEARD HIM SINGING A SONG, AND HE WAS WORKING WITH HORSES, TAKING CARE OF THE ACTORS HORSES, AND HE ALSO WAS DISABLED AND SO WHEN HE WOULD SING THE SONG HE WOULD SPIN AND IT WAS DESCRIBED THAT HE WOULD DRAG HIS BACK LEG.

THERE ARE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ENSLAVED AMERICANS WHO ARE ENSLAVED AND THEIR JOB IS NOT WORKING IN THE COTTON FIELDS.

IT MIGHT BE THAT THEY ARE ENSLAVED FIDDLER OR ENSLAVED SINGER AND SO A LOT OF WORLD- CLASS MUSICIAN'S IN NEW YORK , LONDON, WOULD GO DOWN TO PLACES LIKE NEW ORLEANS, AND GO DOWN TO CHARLESTON, WHERE THEY COULD WATCH THE SLAVE MARKETS, AND THEY'RE BASICALLY WATCHING PERFORMANCES THAT ARE A FORM OF TORTURE.

LIKE DANCE FASTER, JUMP HIGHER, IN THE AUCTION BLOCK, AS PEOPLE ARE BEING EVALUATED FOR THEIR PHYSICALITY, FOR POTENTIAL PURCHASE.

BUT WHAT THESE COMPOSERS AND PERFORMERS DO IS THEY WRITE DOWN WHAT THEY'RE HEARING, WHICH ARE PERMANENT THE BLACK FULL MUSIC, AND ALSO TRYING TO LEARN THE CHOREOGRAPHY, BRINGING IT BACK TO BROADWAY, MASS COMMERCIALIZING IT AND MAKING ENORMOUS SUMS OF MONEY.

AND SO THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WITH TD RICE WHEN HE SEES THIS PERFORMER.

HE BRINGS IT TO THE BOWERY, TO THE FIVE POINTS, IN THE NORTH, SO THIS IS CRITICAL TO THE STORY.

BLACKFACE IS A NORTHERN URBAN INVENTION.

IT IS NOT CREATED IN THE AMERICAN SOUTH AND MOST PERFORMANCES IN THE 19th CENTURY WAS IN CALLED CONCERT SALOONS.

SO THESE ARE ALL MALE SPACES.

WOMEN COULD ONLY BE THERE IF THEY WERE SEX WORKERS OR THEY WERE SERVING ALCOHOL.

AND HE PERFORMS THIS SONG CALLED JUMPING JIM CROW, WHERE HE NOT ONLY PERFORMS IN BLACKFACE BUT ALSO REINTERPRETS STABILITY.

SO AS HE SPINS ABOUT IN THE CHOREOGRAPHY HE DRAGS HIS BACK LEG AND IT WAS SUCH A HIT, THE AUDIENCE MADE HIM PERFORMANCE OVER 50 TIMES IN A ROW, AND THERE'S A REALLY FAMOUS PAINTING WHERE THE AUDIENCE RUSHES THE STAGE AND ARE TRYING TO LEARN THE DANCE RIGHT BESIDE.

WITHIN 10 YEARS WE GET THE RISE OF WHAT'S CALLED MINSTREL SHOWS, SO THESE ARE ALL NIGHT BLACKFACE EVENTS THAT HAVE NORMALLY THREE PARTS TO THEM SO BASICALLY THE BIRTH OF AMERICAN VARIETY SHOWS.

SO WE SEE THAT FORM CONTINUE ALL THE WAY THROUGH SNL AND THEY HAVE MINSTREL TROOPS, WHICH ARE PRETTY MUCH LIKE ROCK BANDS, IN THAT THEY HAVE THEIR SPECIALIZATIONS, THEY HAVE DIFFERENT FAN BASES AND THEY TORE NOT JUST AMERICA BUT THE ENTIRE GLOBE.

AND SO THEIR SONGS, WRITTEN BY COMPOSERS LIKE STEPHEN FOSTER, NOT ONLY BECOME CRITICAL TO AMERICAN CULTURAL DNA, IN THE 1840S, '50S AND 1860S, BUT PRETTY MUCH THE ENGLISH SPEAKING WORLD, WHERE THE RACIAL HUMOR TRANSLATES TO WHAT WILL BECOME SOUTH AFRICA, AUSTRALIA, THROUGHOUT THE BRITISH EMPIRE, AND MY BOOK ALSO TALKS ABOUT HOW THIS TAKES HOLD IN THE PACIFIC BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES BRINGS IT TO JAPAN AND THE JAPANESE EMPIRE.

>> EVERYTHING IN THIS BOOK IS A REVELATION TO ME BUT ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS IS THE FACT THAT LACTASE WAS PERFORMED IN THE JAPANESE INTERNMENT CAMPS, WHERE JAPANESE AMERICANS, JAPANESE IMMIGRANTS WERE HERDED INTO DURING WORLD WAR II AND THEY BECAME KIND OF A FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT IN THESE CAMPS.

WHY WAS IT SO POPULAR IN YOUR VIEW?

>> WELL THERE'S A LOT GOING ON.

THE MOST DISTURBING TRUTH IS THEY'RE FUNNY.

THEY'RE VERY WITTY.

NORMALLY THEY ARE DERIVED IN WORDPLAY, AND WHAT I ALWAYS SAY TO MYSELF IS THIS WOULD BE FUNNY IF YOU REMOVED THE BLACKFACE.

LIKE THE ACTUAL TIME, THE ACTUAL WORDS, WHEN YOU ADD THE BLACKFACE IT'S ANOTHER LAYER, BECAUSE THEN , PART OF THE COMPLEX JOKE THAT'S BEING MADE IS THAT UNFORTUNATELY, THAT BLACK AMERICANS ARE SO INFERIOR AND SO FAILING AT ASSIMILATION, WHETHER THEY ARE TRYING TO ENGAGE WITH FORMS OF TECHNOLOGY LIKE A TELEGRAPH, OR A RADIO, OR IF THEY'RE TRYING TO VOTE IN A POLITICAL PRIMARY, THAT NO MATTER WHAT THEY'RE DOING, THEY'RE DOING IT SLIGHTLY WRONG.

ONCE THESE CHARACTERS EMBEDDED IN AMERICAN CULTURE, WE SORT OF HAD THESE STOCK CARICATURES THAT EVERY AMERICAN IDENTIFIES WITH, KNOWS AND CAN EXPECT THE TROPES THAT THEY'RE GOING TO ENGAGE IN.

I SORT OF DESCRIBE MINSTREL SHOWS LIKE A REALLY STRANGE HYBRID OF THE DAILY SHOW, IN THAT THEY ARE CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT AMERICAN POLITICAL NEWS AND MAKING IT A JOKE, BUT THEN AT THE SAME TIME ARE MIXED WITH SOMETHING LIKE A MID NIGHT VIEWING OF THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW WHERE THE AUDIENCE ALSO KNOWS CERTAIN LINES AND KNOWS SONGS AND ARE SHOUTING IT OUT AS THEY COME UP THROUGHOUT THE PERFORMANCE.

SO THERE'S A STRANGE MIX OF BOTH IMPROVISATION AND FAMILIARITY.

SO LIKE WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD?

THAT'S A MINSTREL JOKE.

THE ICE CREAM TRUCK SONG THAT WE ALL KNOW AS A CHILD, THAT IS A ZIP SONG, THAT IS JIM CROW'S FOIL.

HE'S SORT OF THE URBAN DANDY.

IT'S SORT OF AMAZING.

>> THAT'S CRAZY.

SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT ICE CREAM TRUCK SONG IS ACTUALLY A MINSTREL SONG HE'LL >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN SORT OF CONTEMPORARY SCANDALS AROUND BLACKFACE.

YOU KNOW MANY PEOPLE MIGHT REMEMBER MEGYN KELLY SORT OF STARTED HER CAREER AT FOX NEWS, THEN HAD THIS KIND OF ILL-FATED TENURE, BRIEF TENURE AT NBC, WHERE SHE TRIED TO SORT OF DEFEND BLACKFACE AS KIND OF A HARMLESS, YOU KNOW, FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT AND TWO OF THOSE SORT OF BLACK STARS THERE OBJECTED TO THIS.

AND THEN OF COURSE THERE WAS A FORMER GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA, RALPH NORTHAM, THERE WAS THIS PHOTOGRAPH OF HIM IN A YEARBOOK IN BLACKFACE.

HE SAYS IT WASN'T HIM AND I WAS JUST WONDERING, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE FACT THAT SOMETHING THAT WAS SO UBIQUITOUS HAD SUCH FORCE LATER ON , RIGHT?

>> OF COURSE.

A COUPLE THINGS.

SO THE MEGYN KELLY SITUATION, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT A HALLOWEEN COSTUME FOR DIANA ROSS.

SO THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF BLACKFACE, NOT A MINSTREL SHOW.

SO MINSTREL SHOWS ARE PERFORMED IN BLACKFACE.

BLACKFACE IS JUST A MAKEUP TECHNIQUE.

BUT WHAT SHE WAS ARGUING WAS, BUT I'M HONORING BLACK CULTURE.

I LOVE THIS SUPERSTAR AND THE PUSHBACK WAS DIANA ROSS IS ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMEN IN THE WORLD.

SHE DOES NOT LOOK HOW BLACKFACE LOOKS.

YOU CAN HONOR HER IN OTHER WAYS.

AND THAT WAS THE CONSTANT ARGUMENT IN THE 20th CENTURY AGAINST CIVIL RIGHTS WORKERS, WHO WERE TRYING TO GET THIS OUT OF OUR SCHOOLS, OUT OF OUR MILITARY, OUT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND WHITE PROPONENTS WOULD ALWAYS SAY, ONE, THIS IS TRUE AMERICAN CULTURE, IT'S OUR SORT OF CONTRIBUTION TO WORLD CULTURE, AND BLACK CIVIL RIGHTS WORKERS WOULD SAY, HOW ABOUT JAZZ?

THAT'S AS WELL SO IT DOES EVENTUALLY SWITCH OVER TO THAT BUT ALSO REALLY TRYING TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS IS ACTUALLY WHITE SUPREMACIST POP-CULTURE.

THIS IS A CULTURAL HATE CRIME THAT DOES NOT ACTUALLY REFLECTIVE OF BLACK, BLACK LIFE, IN ANY CAPACITY.

SO THAT'S SORT OF WHAT MEGYN KELLY FOUND HERSELF IN AT THE CROSSROADS OF THAT CONVERSATION.

IN TERMS OF GOVERNOR NORTHAM, THAT IS ALSO A FASCINATING SITUATION.

SO ONCE AGAIN, HE CLAIMED THAT HE WAS DRESSING UP AS MICHAEL JACKSON BUT SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE OFTEN FORGET IS THAT STANDING NEXT TO HIM, IF WE DON'T KNOW, ACTUALLY IT'S NEVER BEEN CONFIRMED WHICH PERSON HE IS IN THE PHOTOGRAPH, IS A KLANSMAN, AND SO THIS IS NOT ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE FUNNY BUT IT IS RACIAL TERROR, VERY BLATANTLY.

AND WHEN THAT HAPPENED I REMEMBER THERE WAS SORT OF A CASCADE OF POLITICIANS WHO WERE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN VIRGINIA BEING EXPOSED AS BEING A PART OF THIS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE LIKE I'M CONFUSED ABOUT WHY THIS WAS HAPPENING IN THE 1980S.

WELL HE WAS AT THE VIRGINIA MILITARY INSTITUTE AND SO IT WAS VERY MUCH A PART OF THIS LONGER MILITARY TRADITION, AND ALSO ITS PREVALENCE IN COLLEGE FRATERNITIES AND ALSO ALL-MALE SPACES.

>> WE'VE NEVER SEEN SO MANY OF THESE PICTURES THAT ARE IN YOUR BOOK .

WHY IS THAT?

>> THERE ARE SORT OF TWO THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

ONE IS A VERY SUCCESSFUL LEGACY OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THAT IN THE 1940S, THE 1960S, BLACK WOMEN ESPECIALLY, BLACK MOTHERS IN THE GREAT MIGRATION, AND ALSO STUDENTS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES WERE SO HORRIFIED WHEN THEY WERE INTEGRATING SUBURBIA, K-12 SCHOOLS AND OTHER FORMS OF DAILY LIFE, THAT THEY HAD BEEN EXCLUDED FROM, TO LEARN HOW, YOU KNOW, PERVASIVE BLACKFACE WAS AND HE RECOGNIZED THAT IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT SOMETHING LIKE LYNCHING OR MASS POLITICAL DISENFRANCHISEMENT, THEN YOU HAVE TO ATTACK THE CARICATURES, WHICH ALLOWS AMERICANS TO PSYCHOLOGICALLY FEEL THAT THIS EXCLUSION IS COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED, BUT ALSO MERITED.

AND SO, PART OF WHAT HAPPENS IS THE PENDULUM SWINGS SO FAR THAT THE EVIDENCE OF THESE SHOWS BECOMES CONSIDERED TABOO AND THEY'RE CENSORED , SO ONE STORY THAT I TELL IN THE INTRODUCTION IS I GO TO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS IN 2012 AND I KNOW THE TITLES I'M LOOKING FOR FOR THESE HOW TO PLAYS.

I HAVE FIGURED OUT THROUGH THE PUBLISHER ROSTERS WHAT THEY ARE BUT I WANT TO READ WHAT'S ACTUALLY IN THESE PLAYS THAT CHILDREN THROUGHOUT AMERICA WERE BEING ASKED TO PERFORM EACH YEAR AND EACH ITEM KEPT COMING UP MISSING ON SHELF, MISSING ON SHELF, AND WHEN THIS HAPPENED ABOUT THE HUNDREDS TIME I PRETTY MUCH DEMANDED TO TALK TO SOMEBODY.

AND I WAS KIND OF POLITELY INTERROGATED ABOUT WHAT ARE YOU DOING, WHY DO YOU WANT TO SEE THESE, WHAT'S YOUR GOAL HERE, AND SO I HAD A VERY HONEST CONVERSATION WITH THE CURATORS AND THE LIBRARIAN DISAPPEARED.

ABOUT AN HOUR LATER SHE BROUGHT BACK BASICALLY WAGONS FULL OF THIS MATERIAL AND ADMITTED THAT IN 1987 SHE HAD HID IT IN SORT OF THE BOWELS OF THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS BECAUSE WITH THE INVENTION OF THINGS LIKE XEROX MACHINES, THE CLAN IN VIRGINIA WAS GOING IN AND TRYING TO MASS REPRODUCE AND REANIMATE THE BLACKFACE CRAZE THAT THE CIVIL RIGHTS WORKERS HAD EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN.

AND SO WHILE WE STILL DO SEE THESE TENTACLES IN THINGS LIKE HALLOWEEN COSTUME, THE CIVIL RIGHTS WORKERS WERE COMPLETELY SUCCESSFUL IN SHUTTING DOWN WHAT WAS A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY, AN ANNUAL AMERICAN TRADITION, AND GETTING IT OUT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND SCHOOLS.

SO IT'S ACTUALLY ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL CIVIL RIGHTS CAMPAIGNS THAT THEY EVER HAD.

>> AND TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO SAY THIS IS JUST PICKING AT SOURCE, WE DON'T NEED MORE DIVISION, THIS IS BEST BURIED, JUST LEAVE IT IN THE PAST, WE DON'T NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS NOW BECAUSE ALL IT DOES IS REAWAKEN ILL FEELING AT A TIME WHEN WE DON'T NEED THAT, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> WHAT I FOUND AS I TRAVELED THE COUNTRY WITH THIS BOOK COMING OUT IS SO MANY AMERICANS COMING UP TO ME AND SAYING I EXPERIENCED THIS AS A CHILD OR MY GRANDFATHER DID THIS ALL THE TIME, ANNUALLY, AND I HAVE NEVER HAD A PLACE WHERE I COULD TALK ABOUT IT.

SO WHAT I'M FINDING IS AFTER MY BOOK TALKS, AMERICANS ARE STICKING AROUND AFTERWARDS AND THEY'RE HAVING INTERRACIAL CONVERSATIONS WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT WHAT DID THIS MEAN, WHY DID I HAVE TO DO THIS IS A FIVE- YEAR-OLD IN JIM CROW, WHY DID MY MOTHER HAVE TO PULL ME OUT OF CLASS AND PROTEST THIS?

I THINK IF WE COULD OPEN MORE SPACES IN AMERICA, I KNOW FOR EXAMPLE, IN GERMANY AND RWANDA THEY ARE VERY INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO FIX SPACES WHERE THE SORT OF NASTY ELEMENTS OF THE HISTORY ARE BEING OPENLY RECKONED WITH AND TALKED ABOUT AND NOT IN A SORT OF CANCEL CULTURE SORT OF WAY BUT MUCH LIKE BLACKFACE TO SAY THIS IMPACTED ALL OF US, EVEN IF YOU DON'T INITIALLY REALIZE IT, IT DID.

SO WHAT DO WE DO WITH THAT?

AND I THINK AMERICANS ARE COMPLETELY READY TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION DESPITE WHAT POWERS MAY BE SAY OTHERWISE.

>> PROFESSOR RHAE LYNN BARNES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IT WAS AN HONOR.

>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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