Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE CAN MAYBE MAKE A GOOD DEAL AND MAYBE NOT A GREAT DEAL.

>> IS AGREEMENT AS UNITED STATES AND IRAN EXCHANGE FIRE AGAIN.

I ASK DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY ABOUT HOW BEST EXIT THE STALEMATE.

WE DISCUSSED HIS NEW BOOK, CRISIS OF THE COMMON GOOD.

>> WITH THE DANGERS AND RESPECT FOR INTERNATIONAL LAW.

>> UNITED NATIONS FACES FINANCIAL COLLAPSE AND IRRELEVANCY.

COULD A NEW LEADER REVIVED THE INSTITUTION?

THE ELECTION FOR THE NEXT U. N. SECRETARY-GENERAL IS AHEAD AND I SPEAK TO ONE OF THE CONTENDERS, REBECCA GREENSPAN, FORMER COSTA RICAN VICE PRESIDENT.

>> WE HAVE A HYPERPOLARIZED POLITICS AND WE HAVE A HYPERPOLARIZED SINCE THE AMERICAN PAST PER >> DIVIDED AMERICA TURNS 250.

JOINS WALTER TO DISCUSS WHETHER THE NATION CAN CELEBRATE AS ONE.

> >> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING, SYLVIA A AND SIMON B POINT PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRESS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE, PATRICIA U. N. COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AFTER A LOT OF DIPLOMATIC WHIPLASH THIS WEEK, NEW SIGNS THAT ENTERING A DIPLOMATIC BREAKTHROUGH.

U. S. AND IRANIAN NEGOTIATORS HAVE REPORTEDLY REACHED A DROPPED MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING THAT WOULD EXTEND THE CEASE-FIRE FOR 60 DAYS AND LAUNCH DIRECT TALKS OVER IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

IT WOULD INCLUDE COMMITMENTS ON SHIPPING THROUGH THE AND FUTURE NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS, ALONG WITH AGREEMENTS TO DISCUSS SANCTIONS RELIEF.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOT YET SIGNED OFF TELLING HIS TEAM THAT HE WANTS A FEW DAYS TO THINK ABOUT IT.

THE RISKS ARE GROWING.

UNITED STATES AND IRAN EXCHANGE FIRE ON THURSDAY RAISING FEARS THAT A SHAKY CEASE-FIRE COULD COLLAPSE ENTIRELY.

RON CONTINUES TO ABSURD CONTROL INTO HAMAS, ONE OF THE WORLDS MOST CRITICAL ENERGY CHOKEPOINTS WHILE TRUMP IS ESCALATING RHETORIC EVEN PARTNERING --THREATENING OMAN, KEY U. S. PARTNER AND MEDIATOR IN THESE TALKS.

>> NOBODY'S GOING TO CONTROL THIS PART OF THE NEGOTIATION.

THEY WOULD LIKE TO CONTROL IT.

NO ONE IS GOING TO CONTROL IT.

IT'S INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

OMAN WILL BEHAVE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE AND WE WILL HAVE TO BLOW THEM UP.

>> THAT SAME APPROACH IS NOW DEFINING TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY AT HOME.

THE PRESIDENT FACES MOUNTING ACCUSATIONS THAT HE IS USING THE MACHINERY OF GOVERNMENT TO TARGET POLITICAL COME OPPONENTS, INCLUDING CAROL WHO WON TWO CIVIL SUITS AGAINST TRUMP FOR SEXUAL ASSAULT AND DEFAMATION IN HIS NEW BOOK, CRISIS OF THE COMMON GOOD, DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY ARGUES, TRUMP IS NOT THE ROOT CAUSE, BUT THE PRODUCT OF A MUCH DEEPER CRISIS IN AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND HE IS JOINING ME FROM CHICAGO.

SENATOR, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I START BY TALKING ABOUT THE LATEST INTERNATIONAL NEWS?

ALL OF THIS BACK-AND-FORTH AS I HAVE OUTLINED OVER SOME KIND OF AGREEMENT TO GET OUT OF THE WAR ON IRAN.

I KNOW THAT YOU WANT CEASE- FIRE, BUT YOU ARE NOT THRILLED WITH THE OUTLINES OF WHAT SEEMS TO BE ON THE TABLE.

WHERE DO YOU STAND RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER THERE IS A DEAL PENDING.

THIS HAS BEEN AND IS ESSENTIALLY FOR THE LAST 30 DAYS WHERE TRUMP IS SIGNALING THAT THERE MAY BE AN AGREEMENT.

I WANT THE WAR TO END ON PRACTICALLY ANY TERMS, BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE DAY THIS WAR GOES ON, AMERICA IS HUMILIATED AND CONSUMERS ARE BEING HAMMERED IN PEOPLE'S LIVES ARE BEING RUINED IN THE UNITED STATES AND THOUSANDS ARE DYING NEEDLESSLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

IRAN IS GETTING STRONGER.

THIS WAR HAS BEEN PERHAPS THE MOST INCOMPETENT RUN WAR IN MODERN HISTORY.

THAT IS SAYING A LOT.

WHAT IS THIS DEAL APPARENTLY ABOUT?

ESSENTIALLY GOING BACK TO WHERE WE WERE BEFORE THE WAR BEGAN, SO WE END OUR BLOCKADE AND THEIR BLOCKADE AND WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT AND TALK ABOUT SANCTIONS RELIEF FOR NUCLEAR COMMITMENTS.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHERE WE WERE BEFORE THE WAR BEGAN.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT IRAN IS STRONGER.

THEY HAVE MORE LEVERAGE AT THE NUCLEAR NEGOTIATING TABLE TODAY THAN THEY DID, BECAUSE THEY HAVE TAKEN AMERICA'S BEST SHOT AND HAVE SURVIVED THE DODDERING 80 YEAR OLD IS GONE AND A MORE MENACING REGIME IS LIKELY IN ITS PLACE.

NOW, THEY KNOW THEY HAVE THIS LEVERAGE THEY HAVE SHOWN TO THE WORLD WITH THE ABILITY TO CLOSE AND CONTROL THAT THEY CAN HOLD OVER US, LIKE IN THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

HE HAS MADE NEGOTIATIONS MUCH HARDER AND DAMAGED THE GLOBAL AND AMERICAN ECONOMY AND IT IS SAD THAT WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THIS JUST TO TALK ABOUT A DIPLOMATIC AGREEMENT THAT BRINGS US BACK TO EXACTLY WHERE WE WERE, BUT LOWERS LEVERAGE OF OUR NEGOTIATION AT THE TABLE.

>> SENATOR, THERE ARE OTHERS -- IN THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, U. S. AND ISRAEL HAVE SEVERELY DEGRADED IRAN'S MILITARY CAPABILITY THAT THE ECONOMY IS ON ITS NEEDS NEEDS WITH ITS BLOCKADE.

IT HAS WEEKEND, ALTHOUGH AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY, BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THE INFORMATION COMING, IT HAS STRENGTHENED THE HEART HARDLINERS, THE MILITARY ARE IGC.

DO YOU THINK DESPITE YOUR MISGIVINGS THAT IT IS MAY BE MORE AMENABLE TO FURTHER NUCLEAR CONCESSIONS THAN EVEN OBAMA GOT?

>> NO.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

WE WILL GET A WORSE DEAL, BECAUSE WE HAVE GIVEN THEM ALL WE'VE GOT.

THEY, I THINK HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN THAT WE WILL LAUNCH A GROUND INVASION, BUT THERE'S DEFINITELY A CHANCE THAT MAJOR AIR OPERATIONS COULD DO SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE.

ALL OF THE ASSESSMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC SHOW THAT IRAN HAS 70% OF THEIR MISSILES, 70% OF DRONES.

MEANWHILE, IT HAS TAKEN AN ENORMOUS TOLL ON AMERICAN SECURITY.

WE HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY DEPLETED OUR MISSILE STOCKS, INTERCEPTORS.

WE HAVE EXPOSED OURSELVES MILITARILY, BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE WEAPONRY WE HAVE HAD TO USE.

IRAN IS MORE POWERFUL TODAY.

THEY JUST ARE.

THEY ARE MORE CONNECTED TO CHINA THAN THEY WERE BEFORE.

THEY ARE MORE MENACING IN THE REGION.

THEY HAVE MORE LEVERAGE THAN THEY DID IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CONFLICT AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE AND WE HAVE LESS.

THAT IS WHY EVERY PRESIDENT HAS BEEN TOLD, DON'T GO TO WAR WITH IRAN.

YOU WILL END UP WEAKER AT THE END OF IT AND EVERY PRESIDENT PRIOR TO DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS PAID ATTENTION AND FOLLOWED THAT COUNSEL.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE CONGRESSIONAL ABILITY TO VOTE ON WAR?

THE WAR POWERS ACT, THE WAR POWERS RESOLUTION.

NOW, YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET IT THROUGH FOR A WHILE.

JUST RECENTLY, THE SENATE DID APPROVE IT WITH A COUPLE OF REPUBLICANS THAT CAME OVER, INCLUDING SENATOR BILL CASSIDY.

HE LOST HIS POSITION AND HE FLIPPED TO A YES VOTE.

YOU ARE GOING TO TRY TO TAKE IT TO A HOUSE AS THE PROCEDURE DEMANDS, BUT THE HOUSE SPEAKER DIDN'T CALL A VOTE.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT STANDS?

DO YOU THINK MORE REPUBLICANS ARE BECOMING MORE WILLING TO TRY TO STOP THE WAR?

>> SINCE THE WAR BEGAN WHEN IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THE REPUBLICANS WITH CONTROL CONGRESS WEREN'T GOING TO DO CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY, WHICH IS TO BRING A WAR VOTE BEFORE CONGRESS BUT IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN LIKE THIS WITHOUT PRIOR CONGRESSIONAL CONSENT.

WHEN WE FOUND OUT REPUBLICANS WEREN'T GOING TO DO THAT, IF YOU OF US, SENATOR BOOKER, KANE AND MYSELF SAID, OKAY, WE ARE GOING TO BRING RESOLUTIONS UNDER RULES THAT REQUIRE A VOTE IN THE SENATE EVERY SINGLE WEEK.

WE HAVE DONE THAT AND LOST RESOLUTIONS TO END THE WAR FOR THE FIRST SEVERAL WEEKS, BUT WE JUST GOT 50 VOTES FOR THE FIRST TIME ON A PROCEDURAL MOTION LAST WEEK AND WE THINK IT'S GOING TO PASS THE SENATE SHORTLY.

IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO PASS THE HOUSE.

THE PRESIDENT CAN VETO IT, SO WE NEED VETO-PROOF MAJORITIES.

AS TIME GOES ON, MORE REPUBLICANS ARE TURNING AGAINST THE PRESIDENT.

WHY?

IT IS WILDLY UNPOPULAR, EXCEPT FOR THE HARD BASE THAT LIVES IN THIS PRO TRUMP MEDIA ECOSYSTEM.

EVERYBODY IN THE NATION THINKS IT'S A DISASTER, BECAUSE THEY'RE PAYING SIX DOLLARS FOR GAS AND THE ONLY REASON THEY'RE PAYING THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE WAR.

PRESSURES WILL AMOUNT ON AMERICANS TO JOIN THE RESOLUTIONS AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO BRING THEM EVERY SINGLE WEEK UNTIL WE HAVE ENOUGH VOTES TO PASS THEM OR OVERWRITE HIS VETO.

>> LET ME ASK YOU.

OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES.

IT ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES JOINT OPERATION AGAINST IRAN AND I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH YOU CONSIDER THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL TO BE, I DON'T KNOW THE RIGHT WORD, BUT TO CONVINCE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO STILL WANT TO CONTINUE.

HE HAS OPENLY SAID AND SO HAVE HIS PEOPLE AND CABINET MINISTERS AND THINGS.

WE DON'T WANT THIS WAR TO END, BECAUSE WE DON'T THINK THE THREAT IS OVER.

>> OBVIOUSLY, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF REPORTING ABOUT WHY THE U. S. GOT DRAGGED INTO THE WAR.

IT DOES APPEAR THAT IT IS PRETTY SIMPLE THAT NETANYAHU AND A HANDFUL OF OTHER HAWKS SURROUNDING THE PRESIDENT CONVINCED HIM THAT IF HE LAUNCHED AIRSTRIKES, IRAN'S GOVERNMENT WOULD FALL AND IT WOULD BE REPLACED IMMEDIATELY BY A PRO-U.

S. PRO ISRAEL GOVERNMENT.

NOW, WHETHER THAT WAS A DEMOCRACY OR A DIFFERENT DICTATOR, IT'S UNCLEAR, BUT NETANYAHU WAS WRONG AND HE HAS LARGELY BEEN WRONG OVER AND OVER AGAIN ABOUT THE IMPACT OF MILITARY ACTIVITY IN THE REGION.

NOW, WE ARE LEFT WITH AN ABSOLUTE MESS, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE A PLAN B. IF WE LAUNCHED A COUPLE DAYS OF AIRSTRIKES THAT THE REGIME WOULD FALL AND A PRO-U.

S. GOVERNMENT WOULD TAKE ITS PLACE AND EVERYTHING WOULD BE GREAT.

WHEN THAT DIDN'T PLAN OUT, THEY WERE SCRAMBLING AND HAVE BEEN SCRAMBLING INCOMPETENTLY PANIC AND PANICKING EVER SINCE.

>> I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES, SENATOR CHRIS AND HIS OP-ED THIS WEEK WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT THE UNITED STATES RE-EVALUATING ITS TERMS OF ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL.

STAY BIG FRIENDS, BUT CONDITION CERTAINLY, MILITARY ASSISTANCE AND WEAPONRY ON THE SAME STANDARDS THAT YOU DO TO OTHER COUNTRIES WHO RECEIVE MINISTRY AID.

THE HARD TRUTH AND HE'S ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRATS RIGHT NOW.

BLAMING DEMOCRATS FOR REFLEXIVE AND UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT, UNDERMINE AMERICAN VALUES, CALLS OUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

REPEATEDLY FAILED TO USE U. S. LEVERAGE AS IMPOSE DEVASTATING COME PUNISHMENT ON THE PEOPLE OF GAZA.

DO YOU AGREE OR THINK THE NEXT DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT SHOULD RECOGNIZE PALESTINIAN STATE AND ENFORCE CONDITIONS, THE VERY SAME CONDITIONS IT ASKS OF OTHER COUNTRIES IN AID AND MILITARY ASSISTANCE?

>> I HAVE NOT GOTTEN THE CHANCE TO READ HIS WHOLE PIECE, SO I CAN'T TELL YOU WHETHER I AGREE WITH THE WHOLE CASE, BUT I HAVE LONG BELIEVED THAT WE SHOULD TREAT ISRAEL AS WE DO OTHER NATIONS IN THIS RESPECT.

WE SHOULD ONLY GIVE AID TO COUNTRIES THAT ARE OBEYING AND ABIDING BY INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS LAWS AND GENERAL ACCEPTABLE LAWS OF WAR.

WHILE I HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO DEFEND ITS SELF AND DUTY TO DEFEND ITSELF IN THE WAKE OF THE OCTOBER SOME OF THE TAX, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THEY HAVE NOT USED OUR WEAPONS IN ACCORDANCE WITH GENERALLY ACCEPTED HUMAN RIGHTS LAWS IS NOT ALLOWABLE UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW TO ESSENTIALLY ERADICATE ENTIRE TOWNS AND CITIES AS THEY DID IN GAZA AND AS THEY ARE DOING RIGHT NOW IN LEBANON.

YOU HAVE TO ENGAGE IN TARGETED CAMPAIGNS AGAINST YOUR TRUE ENEMIES RATHER THAN VISITING ENORMOUS PAIN ON CIVILIANS AS HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN BOTH THEATERS.

I HAVE BEEN VOTING AGAINST ARMS SALES TO ISRAEL PART OF THE BETTER PART OF LAST YEAR NOT BECAUSE I WANT TO PERMANENTLY END OUR PARTNERSHIP WITH ISRAEL, BUT I DON'T THINK WE CAN CONTINUE UNTIL THEY START OPERATING DIFFERENTLY AND CAUSING LESS HUMANITARIAN PAIN IN THESE CONFLICTS.

>> ALL OF THIS IS SOMEWHAT RELATED.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE COMMON GOOD AND ASSAULT ON THE COMMON GOOD.

LET'S TALK ABOUT CORRUPTION.

YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT THAT AND THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF CRITICISM EVEN BY NORMAL TRUMP ALLIES OVER THIS ONE $.

8 BILLION.

TELL ME HOW THAT FITS INTO THE PARADIGM OF WHAT YOU SAY AMERICANS ARE GETTING FED UP AND OVER DECLAIMING -- DECLINING, GOOD.

>> ANYBODY IN AMERICA KNOWS THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG AND RUN IN THE COUNTRY BEFORE TRUMP THAT PEOPLE WERE FEELING MORE LONELY THAN EVER BEFORE.

THEY FELT LIKE THESE TECHNOLOGIES WHO ARE SPIRALING US INTO LIVES OF ISOLATION THAT OUR WORK LACKED DIGNITY AND PROFIT WAS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERED AND EVERYTHING NOT NAILED DOWN WAS BECOMING A COMMODITY.

YOU CAN PLACE A BET AND WIN MONEY OVER WHAT THE FAMINE HAPPENS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD.

IT FEELS SOULLESS.

I THINK THAT IT'S THE STORY OF NORMALIZATION OF CORRUPTION, AS WELL.

WE LIVED IN A CORRUPT ECONOMY WHERE A HANDFUL OF REALLY POWERFUL PEOPLE WHO RUN BIG COMPANIES ESSENTIALLY JUST GRAB EVERYTHING THEY CAN FOR THEMSELVES.

LEAVING SCRAPS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE.

I THINK WE HAVE BEGUN TO THINK THAT IT'S NORMAL IN POLITICS AND THAT DONALD TRUMP WINS POLITICALLY AND HE IS ABLE TO USE ANY MEANS NECESSARY TO GRAB WHATEVER HE CAN FOR HIMSELF, INCLUDING INSIDER TRAINING, SCOOPING 1.

8 TRILLION -- BILLION DOLLARS FOR HIS POLITICAL SLUSH FUND.

NORMALIZED THAT THIS COMMUNITY --IF YOU WIN IN ECONOMY AND GOVERNMENT, YOU CAN TAKE WHATEVER YOU WANT.

GREEN USED TO BE SOMETHING THAT WE SHAMED AND WE WANT SHARED PROSPERITY.

TODAY, IT IS SOMETHING WE LIONIZE AND THAT IS PART OF THE REASON THAT AMERICA SEEMS TO BE FALLING APART SPIRITUALLY AND IT HAS ATTRACTED MORE THAN EVER BEFORE TO DEMAGOGUES LIKE TRUMP.

>> BEFORE I ASK YOU FOR A SOLUTION, YOU BEGIN YOUR BOOK, THIS BOOK, WITH AN ANECDOTE THAT IS NOT SET IN WASHINGTON AND THE HOCKEY WHERE YOU ARE WATCHING YOUR SON PLAYING HOCKEY.

TELL US ABOUT THE ANECDOTE.

>> MY BOOK OPENS WITH A PERSONAL STORY THAT WILL SOUND FAMILIAR WITH PEOPLE.

MY SON IS A HOCKEY PLAYER AND HE'S NOT GOING TO PLAY IN THE NHL, BUT HE'S PLAYING A 60 GAME SEASON, WHICH IS A LOT OF HOCKEY GAMES.

HIS LEAGUE IS OWNED BY A PRIVATE EQUITY BACKED INVESTMENT COMPANY AND I HAVE COME TO FIND OUT THE THERE ARE SOME PRETTY BIZARRE RULES.

FOR INSTANCE, PARENTS CAN'T LIVE STREAM GAMES, SO THAT THE GRANDPARENTS CAN WATCH AT HOME.

THIS PRIVATE EQUITY BACKED COMPANY HAS INSTALLED A CAMERA SYSTEM AND STREAMING SYSTEM THAT THEY CHARGE YOU FOR.

EVEN THE MOST SACRED THINGS IN OUR LIFE, LIKE OUR KIDS YOUTH SPORTS IS BEING PURCHASED, THEN SOLD BACK TO US.

THAT IS PART OF WHAT IS DRIVING I THINK THIS GREAT ANXIETY IN THE COUNTRY.

EVERYTHING IS FOR SALE, INCLUDING OUR KIDS YOUTH SPORTS.

WE WANT SOME THINGS IN OUR WORLD TO JUST BE RUN FOR THE COMMON GOOD, ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS, PARTS OF OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

OUR KIDS YOUTH SPORTS TEAMS AND WHEN EVERYTHING BECOMES A COMMODITY WHEN WE CONSTRUCT AN ECONOMY WHERE THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS PROFIT AND A COMPANY IS JUDGED TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

EVEN IF IT VILLAGES THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH IT LIVES IN TREATS WORKERS MISERABLY AND MAKES A PROFIT, IT FEELS LIKE SOMETHING IS WRONG.

THIS BOOK ARGUES --WOULD HAVE TO REBUILD THE SENSE OF COMMON GOOD AND HAVE TO BUILD AN ECONOMY THAT SERVES EVERYBODY.

AND NOT JUST PEOPLE AT THE TOP, BUT WE HAVE TO REBUILD DEMOCRACY, SO EVERYONE'S VOICES MATTER.

PEOPLE HAVE TO BE LESS WILLING TO NORMALLY SCAPEGOATING THAT YOU SEE FROM DONALD TRUMP.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT THE YOUTH AND YOUNG PEOPLE ARE NOW GRADUATING FROM UNIVERSITY WANTING TO GET INTO THE JOB MARKET.

A HUGE AMOUNT OF DESPAIR OF WHAT FACES THEM PARTICULARLY IN THIS WORLD AND YOU CALLED OUT THE CULT OF TECHNOLOGY.

LET ME PLAY YOU A SERIES OF QUITE EXTRAORDINARY BOOING OF COMMENCEMENT SPEAKERS WHEN THEY MENTIONED A. I. AT GRADUATION SPEECHES THIS YEAR.

>> IT WAS THE ARCHITECTS OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

INTERESTING.

>> WE ARE USING A NEW A. I. SYSTEM AS OUR READER.

>> THE RISE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS THE NEXT INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.

>> I MEAN, IT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE A MEME, BUT THAT'S HAPPENING.

CALIFORNIA, FLORIDA.

THIS IS BIG PARTICULARLY FOR THE YOUTH AND WHAT YOU ARE CALLING ABOUT THE CRISIS OF THE COMMON GOOD.

HOW IS THAT GOING TO BE REVERSED?

>> SO, THE BOOK REALLY TALKS ABOUT THE SPIRITUAL CRISIS.

HOW ARE WE FEELING?

HOW DO WE CRAFT POLICIES THAT MAKE US HAPPIER.

THAT IS WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE BUSINESS OF DOING.

PEOPLE ARE LESS HAPPY THAN EVER BEFORE.

WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT A. I. , NOT JUST AS A JOB KILLER, BUT WHAT HAPPENS SPIRITUALLY.

WHAT HAPPENS AS HUMAN BEINGS AND ALL OF A SUDDEN MACHINES ARE DOING THE THINGS THAT MADE US HUMAN?

WE ARE GOING TO MACHINES FOR AND SHIP, CREATIVITY AND COMPOSITION AND CRITICAL THINKING.

WHAT IS LEFT OF HUMANITY IF MACHINES ARE DOING ALL OF THAT?

THE REASON I HAVE TO DO THAT AND JUMP IN RIGHT NOW AND PROTECT PEOPLE FROM A. I. AND YOUNG PEOPLE FROM A. I. IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT JOBS, BUT IT'S ULTIMATELY ABOUT A CRISIS OF HUMANITY AND THERE IS A WAY TO GET THE GOOD FROM A. I. WITHOUT THE SPIRITUAL DISINTEGRATION.

I GAVE A DIFFERENT COMMENCEMENT SPEECH THIS YEAR AND THEY SPOKE AT WESLEY UNIVERSITY AND GAVE US DEFENSIVE INEFFICIENCY AND WHY WE SHOULDN'T GIVE INTO A COLD EFFICIENCY AND SHOULD BE OKAY WITH SLOWING DOWN IN OUR LIVES AND WE SHOULD BE OKAY WITH THE INEFFICIENCY OF DEMOCRACY.

WE SHOULDN'T BE SPEEDING FORWARD TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS CONSTANTLY MAXIMIZED.

THAT IN THE END MAKES YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE JUST IN A MACHINE RATHER THAN HAVING TRUE AGENCY, MEANING AND PURPOSE IN YOUR LIVES.

CONGRESS HAS TO STEP FORWARD AND CREATE CLEAR RULES, LIKE KEEPING KIDS OFF OF THESE FRIENDSHIP CHAT BOTS , LIKE TURNING OFF ALGORITHMS FOR YOUNG CHILDREN.

WE NEED TO DO THAT IMMEDIATELY AS A SPIRITUAL MATTER AND ECONOMIC MATTER.

>> AND, THE POPE IS WAITING, OF COURSE, WITH HIS FIRST ON THIS MATTER.

SENATOR MURPHY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> THE UNITED NATIONS IS FACING A MOMENT OF CRISIS.

THE ORGANIZATION WAS ORIGINALLY CREATED FROM THE RUINS OF WORLD WAR TWO TO PREVENT CONFLICT AND UPHOLD INTERNATIONAL LAW.

TODAY, THE U. N. IS FACING A MASSIVE FINANCIAL CRISIS WITH BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN UNPAID U. S. AND OTHER SUCH THINGS EVEN AS WARS AND HUMANITARIAN CRISES RAGE FROM SUDAN TO CAUSE A, UKRAINE AND ELSEWHERE.

NOW, ANOTHER MAJOR ESCALATION.

ISRAEL HAS FROZEN TIES WITH SECRETARY-GENERAL ANTONIO GUTURRES HIMSELF AFTER REPORTEDLY BEING CONSIDERED FOR A U. N. BLACKLIST OF PERPETRATORS ACCUSED OF CONFLICT RELATED SEXUAL VIOLENCE, WHICH ISRAEL DENIES.

AT A MOMENT, WHEN THE UN'S AUTHORITY IS UNDERGOING ATTACK, WHO WOULD WANT TO LEAD IT?

ONE CONTENDER IS REBECCA GREENSPAN.

THE CURRENT HEAD OF U. N. TRADE AND DEVELOPMENT AND FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF COSTA RICA WHO IS JOINING ME NOW FROM HERE IN LONDON.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, REBECCA GREENSPAN.

I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN HERE WITH OTHER CONTESTANTS AND CONTENDERS TO PUT OUT YOUR VIEWS AND VISIONS FOR YOUR SORT OF CAMPAIGN PITCHES, IF YOU LIKE.

WHAT IS YOUR CAMPAIGN PITCH AFTER I DESCRIBED.

DO YOU AGREE?

FAILING ORGANIZATION OR WANTING DEEP CRISIS RIGHT NOW?

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

LET ME START BY SAYING THAT I BELIEVE IN THE PRINCIPLES OF THE CHARTER.

I STILL BELIEVE THAT THE U. N. IS A KEY ORGANIZATION FOR THE STABILITY AND MORE PEACEFUL WORLD.

NOW, I AM NOT DEFENDING THE U. N. .

I AM DEFENDING THE PRINCIPLES OF THE U. N. AND THE NEED TO REFORM AND PUT THE U. N. IN 2026.

WE WERE CREATED YEARS AGO, SO THERE ARE THINGS WE HAVE TO IMPROVE, AND THAT WE HAVE TO ENHANCE.

THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO DO IN THE U. N. TO BE BETTER AND MORE USEFUL AND MORE TAXABLE.

MORE AGILE.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU --YOU SAY THAT FOR MANY U. N. LEADERS AND CONTENDERS HAVE INSISTED THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE REFORM ONLY TO BE PUSHED BACK AND IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, BUT ON THE IMMEDIATE CRISIS OF UNDERFUNDING AND POTENTIAL FINANCIAL COLLAPSE, WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO HAPPEN IMMEDIATELY EITHER BEFORE THE ELECTION OR AFTER THE ELECTION?

YOUR BIGGEST BACKER IS THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS WITHHOLDING A LOT OF DUES AND HAS A LOT OF DEMANDS, INCLUDING CUTTING BACK PEACEKEEPING, HUMAN RIGHTS WORK ET CETERA.

DEVELOPMENT WORK.

WHERE DO YOU MEET THAT IN THE MIDDLE?

>> YEAH, FIRST OF ALL, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE TO START BY ALL OF THE MEMBERSHIP.

WITH THEIR OBLIGATIONS.

LET'S AGREE THAT THE FINANCIAL CRISIS IS ALSO RELATED TO THE POLITICAL CRISIS, SO WE HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH THE U. S. , BUT WOULD ALL OF THE MEMBERS TO BE ABLE TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM AND CALL ON THE REFORM AND ABILITY OF THE U. N. TO DELIVER AS THE U. S. HAS AGREED WITH THAT AND HUMANITARIAN FIELD.

YES, THEY REALIZE THAT THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN BRING HUMANITARIAN AID AT SCALE IS THE U. N. , SO THEY START TO FUND THE HUMANITARIAN WORK.

WE NEED TO ENGAGE ON THE OTHER AREAS AND ALSO FOR THE MEMBERSHIP SPACE AND FINANCIAL RULES TO BE ABLE TO FIND SOLUTION AND TO HAVE A STABLE --STABLE BUDGET FOR THE FUTURE.

WE NEED SOME TIME TO DO THAT.

SOME BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT TO DO THAT.

WE ARE CALLING ALSO THE MEMBERSHIP TO GIVE US SOME LEEWAY IN SOME FINANCIAL RULES, SO WE CAN RESPOND AND WE CAN BRING BACK THE COUNTRY AND TO COMPLY WITH OBLIGATIONS THAT THEY HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY.

IF I MAY SAY, I HAVE BEEN IN THE MINISTER OF FINANCE WITH MY COUNTRY WHEN WE WERE NEGOTIATING AND WE ARE UNDER FINANCIAL RESTRAINT.

I KNOW NUMBERS.

OBVIOUSLY, I WILL IF I'M ELECTED.

IF JUST FOR THE ACTUAL NUMBER.

WE NEED THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, THE SPACE FROM THE MEMBERSHIP TO BE ABLE TO BE BACK ON OUR FEET.

WE CANNOT REALLY OPERATE AND MAKE AN ORGANIZATION THAT WILL BE USEFUL FOR ITS PURPOSE IF WE DON'T HAVE A STABLE BUDGET AND A HORIZON FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.

>> ON THE ISSUE OF THE POWER OF THE SECRETARY-GENERAL, ONE COULD SAY THAT THERE IS A LOT OF POWER.

THE POWER OF THE MORAL POWER, AND YOU PRETTY MUCH ARE BEHOLDING CERTAINTY TO THE FIVE PERMANENT MEMBERS AND ALL OF THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE UNITED NATIONS.

THIS IS WHAT I ASKED THE CURRENT SECRETARY-GENERAL ANTONIO GUTURRES A FEW YEARS AGO ABOUT WHAT HE THINKS HIS AUTHORITY IS.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> THE SECRETARY OF THE UNITED NATIONS HAS NO POWER AND NO MONEY, AND WHAT WE HAVE IS A VOICE AND THE VOICE CAN BE LOVED AND I HAVE THE OBLIGATION TO BE LOUD.

WE HAVE SOME CONVENING POWER.

>> SO, THAT WAS PRETTY FRANK AND I WANT TO DO AGREE.

NO MONEY OR POWER, BUT WE DO HAVE A VOICE IN CONVENING POWER.

MY QUESTION IS, WHY WOULD YOU WANT THIS JOB AT THIS TIME?

>> LOOK, I I AM THE DAUGHTER.

MY PARENTS WERE REFUGEES OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR AND I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WAR TAKES AWAY FROM YOU AND WHAT PIECE ALLOWS YOU TO BE, SO I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THE COURAGE, WHEN YOU INTRODUCE ME, THE COURAGE TO AGREE ON THE CHARTER IS THE COURAGE THAT WE NEED TODAY TO STAND BY THE PRINCIPLES OF THE U. N. CHARTER.

I KNOW THAT THE WORLD WILL BE MORE STABLE AND MORE PEACEFUL IF WE COMPLY WITH THAT OBJECTIVE AND THAT ASPIRATION.

THE U. N. HAS THE POWER AND ALSO IT HAS THE GOOD OFFICES OF SECRETARY-GENERAL.

WE HAVE THE POWER OF PREVENTATIVE DIPLOMACY AND OF BEING AT THE TABLE.

WHEN I GO AROUND AND I ASK ABOUT THIS, MOST OF YOU PEOPLE TELL ME AND ASK ME, WHERE IS THE U. N. THAT IS PART OF WHAT WE NEED TO RECOVER.

WE NEED TO RECOVER BEING AT THE TABLE AND BEING THERE.

ASSUME AND ACCEPT THE COST OF REJECTION AND OF FAILING.

THE ONLY THING WE CANNOT ASSUME IS NOT TRYING.

THE ONLY FAILURE WE HAVE TO FEAR IS NOT TRYING.

WE HAVE BECOME AND WE HAVE TO CHANGE THAT.

>> THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE YOU GO BACK TO AN EARLIER ERA.

I WAS THINKING SPEAKING TO THE GRANDSON OF THE U. S. GENERAL, THE SECOND ONE, AND HE WAS REMINDING US WITH HIS NEW BOOK, AS WELL, THAT AT THAT TIME PLAYED A VERY PIVOTAL ROLE IN MEDIATING BETWEEN THE SOVIET UNION AND UNITED STATES AROUND THE CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS AND HELPED DEFUSE WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN AND OF TIMES CATASTROPHE.

ONLY BECAUSE HE HAD THE CONVENING POWER, PLATFORM, MORAL AUTHORITY, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY DIVISIONS OR REGIMENS.

CAN YOU SEE IN TODAY'S WORLD ALL OF THESE DECADES SINCE AND ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT WARS AND ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS.

ESSENTIALLY, A LITTLE BIT OF A COLLAPSE OF THE FUNCTIONING OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL.

DO YOU THINK YOU CAN GET BACK TO A WORLD OF STYLE ABILITY TO USE THAT UNIQUE POWER?

>> YEAH, BUT, CHRISTIANE, IF SECURITY COUNCIL IS BLOCKED, THAT'S THE STARTING OF YOUR WORK AND AT THE END OF YOUR WORK.

PART OF YOUR WORK IS PRECISELY TO OPEN UP THE SPACES FOR CONVERSION.

WE DON'T HAVE TO AGREE ON EVERYTHING TO AGREE ON THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT FOR THE WORLD.

FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT IS WHY I SAY, THE GOOD OFFICES OF THE SECRETARY- GENERAL HAVE TO BE THE CENTER PEACE AND SECURITY HAVE TO BE THE CENTER OF THE OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY-GENERAL.

YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF PREVENTING DIPLOMACY, OFFICES OF SECRETARY-GENERAL TO DE- ESCALATE BEFORE CONFLICTS ESCALATE.

TODAY, THE OFFICE OF SECRETARY- GENERAL IS NOT STRUCTURED TO DO THAT.

WE NEED TO DO THAT AGAIN AND PRECISELY LEARNING FROM THE PAST, BUT ALSO LOOKING AT THE KIND OF COOPERATION WE NEED FOR THE FUTURE.

THAT IS POSSIBLE TO DO, BECAUSE IT REQUIRES LEADERSHIP AND REQUIRES DETERMINATION AND IT REQUIRES COMPETENCE AND I THINK I CAN PROVIDE THAT TO THE U. N. AND I'M CONFIDENT THAT WE CAN BE OF USE TO THE CONFLICTS OF TODAY.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU PROPOSE TO TRY TO STRAIGHTEN OUT RELATIONS, FOR INSTANCE, BETWEEN THE U. N. AND ISRAEL.

THE RELIEF IN WORKS AGENCY, WHICH BASICALLY IS CHARGED WITH ALL OF THE HUMANITARIAN, EDUCATION AND MEDICAL NEEDS OF PALESTINIANS WERE THERE IN GAZA OR OCCUPIED WEST BANK , AS YOU KNOW, THE HEADQUARTERS IN ISRAEL IS BEING FLATTENED AND THERE IS A RUPTURE BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL.

IT'S BAD.

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE U. N. THEY BELIEVE THE U. N. IS STACKED AGAINST THEM.

HOW DO YOU PROPOSE TO STRAIGHTEN THAT OUT GIVEN THAT IT IS SUCH A VITAL NECESSITY AND THAT THE U. N. DOES VITAL WORK.

THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT DOING FOR THE PALESTINIANS, FOR INSTANCE.

THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE TASKED TO DO.

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT'S AGREED.

VERY IMPORTANT IN OTHER PARTS.

ALSO WORD TO DO IN JORDAN, SYRIA, IN THE WEST BANK, LEBANON.

IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT ORGANIZATION FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

AND FOR REFUGEES.

THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEES.

NOW, IN GAZA, THE RECENT RESOLUTION OF THIS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 2803 THAT ESTABLISHED 20 POINTS FOR CEASE- FIRE, WHICH HAS TO BE MAINTAINED AND HAS BEEN BROKEN MANY TIMES DURING THIS TIME FOR UNIMPEDED ACTS OF THE HUMANITARIAN AID TO GAZA, BUT ALSO ON THE RECONSTRUCTION OF GAZA WITH THE BOARD PIECE FOR GAZA.

I THINK THAT WE NEED TO MAKE THAT PLAN SUCCEED AND THE U. N. CAN BE A VERY IMPORTANT.

AS I SAID BEFORE, WE HAVE LEARNED VERY CLEARLY THAT THERE IS NOBODY THAT CAN PROVIDE HUMANITARIAN AID AT THE SCALE NEEDED IF IT'S NOT THE U. N. AT THE SAME TIME, WE KNOW AND AGREE THAT HUMANITARIAN AID SHOULD NOT BE POLITICIZED AND THAT CREDIBILITY HAS TO BE MAINTAINED ALL THE TIME.

>> THE GLOBAL SOUTH OBVIOUSLY HAS RISEN TO A MUCH BIGGER PROMINENCE OVER THE DECADES SINCE THE U. S. WAS FIRST FORMED.

ONE OF YOUR RIVALS OR COMPETITORS FOR THIS JOB IS PRESIDENT OF SYNAGOGUE AND HE'S OPENLY DEMANDING REFORM AND EXPANSION OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL THAT IT'S ENOUGH ALREADY WITH JUST FIVE PERMANENT MEMBERS AND DEVELOPING NATIONS SHOULD HAVE PERMANENT SEATS.

WOULD YOU CONSIDER THEM?

>> YOU KNOW THAT THIS IS THE DECISION OF THE COUNCIL AND I HAVE NO DOUBT.

I AGREE.

THE REASON WHY CONSENSUS THAT AFRICA IS UNDERREPRESENTED IN THE UNITED NATIONS, MOST OF THEM WERE NOT INDEPENDENT COUNTRIES WHEN THE UNITED NATIONS WAS FORMED.

WHEN THE CHARTER WAS SIGNED, THERE WERE 51 COUNTRIES SIGNING THE CHARTER.

TODAY, WE ARE 193, WHICH MEANS THAT 142 COUNTRIES WERE NOT PRESENT AT THAT MOMENT.

THAT WILL REQUIRE REFORMS AND THE SECURITY COUNCIL NO DOUBT WILL HAVE MORE WEIGHT AND LEGITIMACY IF IT WILL REPRESENT THE WORLD OF TODAY.

I THINK THAT THE WIDER CONSENSUS THAT YOU CAN FIND TODAY IS FOR THE REPRESENTATION OF AFRICA AND STRUCTURES OF THE U. N. AND SECURITY COUNCIL.

>> LASTLY, THERE IS OBVIOUSLY YOUR SELF AND A COUPLE OF OTHER WOMEN RUNNING.

IT WOULD BE A FIRST IF ONE OF YOU IS ELECTED.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS THE YEAR?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I HAVE SAID THAT WE DON'T NEED SPECIAL TREATMENT, CHRISTIANE.

WHAT WE NEED IS EQUAL TREATMENT.

IF WE HAVE EQUAL TREATMENT , I THINK THIS WILL BE THE YEAR.

>> OKAY.

PERFECT ANSWER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

REBECCA GREENSPAN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF COSTA RICA.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

> >> AMERICA IS TURNING 250, QUARTER OF A MILLENNIUM IS QUITE A MILESTONE, BUT AS WE HEARD FROM SENATOR MURPHY, NOT EVERYONE IS FEELING JOYOUS ABOUT THIS CHAPTER OF THE AMERICAN STORY.

THE BIRTHDAY ARRIVES A MIDDLEWARE WITH IRAN.

SOARING PRICES AND POLITICAL POLARIZATION AS THE COUNTRY LOOKS INWARD AT ITS HISTORY AND FUTURE, IS A UNIFIED CELEBRATION POSSIBLE?

JILL IS AN AMERICAN HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR OF WE THE PEOPLE AND SHE JOINS TO DISCUSS THE AND LOOK BACK AT AMERICAN HISTORY.

THE GOOD AND THE UGLY.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND , JILL LEPORE, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS.

>> WE WILL CELEBRATE OUR 250th IN A MONTH, BUT WE SEE WE ARE IN NO MOOD FOR A CELEBRATION.

HOW DIFFICULT IS IT FOR US TO CELEBRATE AT A TIME LIKE THIS POLITICALLY.

>> IT IS A PERFECT STORM.

THERE IS JUST SO MUCH GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY REALLY FROM TOWN TO TOWN, CITY NEIGHBORHOOD TO CITY NEIGHBORHOOD.

PEOPLE ARE ASKING BASIC QUESTIONS ABOUT THE EXPERIMENT.

OF OUR HERITAGE AND THE DIRECTION OF THE NATION'S FUTURE BETWEEN THE 250th ONGOING RULING INTENSE DEBATES THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SPURS AND WE ARE ALSO IN THE MIDST OF THE AI BACKLASH MOMENT, TECH LASH MOMENT.

I THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF HOTDOGS AND PARADES AND BASEBALL GAMES AND BICYCLE RACES AND BASKETBALL GAMES.

A LOT OF REGULAR OLD STANDARD FOURTH OF JULY CELEBRATION, BUT I THINK THE LARGE EPIC MOMENT WILL ELUDE US.

>> 50 YEARS AGO, WE WERE GOING THROUGH A PERIOD THAT WAS VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT IN THE SENSE THAT WE WERE VERY TORN APART ABOUT VIETNAM AND ABOUT THE ASSASSINATIONS OF KENNEDY'S.

THE URBAN RIOTS AND RESIGNATION OF THE PRESIDENT.

BY THE WAY, LANDING ON THE MOON AND LETTING THE INTERNET BECOME MORE PUBLIC.

YET, WE RANG THE LIBERTY BELL AND HEAD OF THE BICENTENNIAL AND THERE WAS A HEALING PROCESS.

WHY IS THAT NOT HAPPENING NOW?

>> I SOMETIMES WONDER HOW MUCH OF A HEALING PROCESS IT WAS.

I WAS A LITTLE KID FOR THE BICENTENNIAL AND I REMEMBER IT MAINLY BEING A BLAST AND WE HAD TO SEW HER OWN COLONIAL DRESSES.

THE GIRL SCOUTS, WE WENT OUT AND PAINTED THE FIRE HYDRANTS RED, WHITE AND BLUE.

HAVE A KID'S EYE VIEW OF IT, BUT I SPENT A LOT OF TIME RESEARCHING WHAT IT MEANT.

ONE OF THE THINGS I CAME ACROSS WAS WONDERFUL.

IN 1974 AND 1975 WHERE THEY WENT AND JUST INTERVIEWED PEOPLE AT NATIONAL PARKS, LIKE NATIONAL HISTORIC PARKS, SO PHILADELPHIA AND SAN FRANCISCO AS MUCH AS YELLOWSTONE AND THE GRAND CANYON.

AND, ASKING PEOPLE WHAT THE BICENTENNIAL MEANT TO THEM.

THE ANSWERS ARE REMARKABLY CANDID AND WIDE-RANGING.

THERE IS A LOT OF CYNICISM.

WE FORGET HOW MUCH THERE WAS ABOUT THE REAL COMMERCIALISM OF THE BICENTENNIAL, MOCKED AS THE BICENTENNIAL, WY CENTENNIAL.

EVERYTHING WAS BICENTENNIAL THEME AND BOUGHT SANITARY NAPKINS, RED, WHITE AND BLUE THAT YEAR.

EVERYTHING.

TOILET PAPER AND ANYTHING YOU BOUGHT AT ANY RESTAURANT CAME WITH A QUOTE BY PAUL REVERE ON IT.

IT WAS TACKY AND CHEESY IN ALL KINDS OF WAYS, BUT I THINK FOR KIDS IT WAS FUN AND THOSE WERE FUN THINGS TO COLLECT.

THERE'S A LOT OF CYNICISM ABOUT THE NATURE.

WHAT DID THE COUNTRY HAVE TO CELEBRATE AFTER VIETNAM AND PENTAGON PAPERS?

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED THIS TIME AROUND IS THAT IT WAS SAVED BY THE RECOGNITION IN THE YEARS BEFORE 1976 THAT THE PLANNING WASN'T WORKING.

THE PLANNING HAD BECOME HYPER PARTISAN.

JOHNSON HAD A BICENTENNIAL COMMISSION THAT HE SET UP IN 1965 EARLY ON.

RICHARD NIXON WHEN HE TOOK OFFICE IN 1969 GOT RID OF THE COMMISSION AND APPOINTED A BUNCH OF REPUBLICANS AND WAS REALLY GET ALMOST LIKE A SLUSH FUND TO PROMOTE THE GOP AGENDA, THEN THERE WAS AN EXPOSE ABOUT THE WASHINGTON POST AFTER PUBLISHING THE PENTAGON PAPERS AND PUBLISHED THAT WE REMEMBERED THE BICENTENNIAL PAPERS THAT REVEALED THE CORRUPTION OF THE COMMISSION.

THE COMMISSION WAS BASICALLY DISBANDED AND THE GUY THAT WAS BROUGHT IN, JOHN WARNER, CONTINUED TO THE WORD ADMINISTRATION, HE HAD THIS GOOD IDEA TO SAY, THIS ISN'T REALLY A PROJECT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, BUT SOMETHING FOR THE COMMUNITIES TO FIGURE OUT ON THEIR OWN.

WE WILL ANNOUNCE ANYTHING AND PROMOTE ANYTHING AND PUBLISHED A NEWSPAPER CALLED THE BICENTENNIAL TIMES LISTING THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND KEPT A CALENDAR THAT WAS A REALLY COMPLICATED TO DO IN THAT DAY AND AGE.

THEY FUNDED REALLY SOME LIKE BETWEEN HALF AND TWO THIRDS OF EVERY HISTORIC SITE IN THE COUNTRY RECEIVING GOVERNMENT DURING THAT ERA.

HISTORIC HOUSES IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD OR ORAL HISTORY PROJECTS IN YOUR CITY, MOST OF THEM ARE FUNDED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR THE BICENTENNIAL WITHOUT A SPECIFIC AGENDA OF WHAT THE STORY OF AMERICA OUGHT TO BE, WHICH IS FOR THE COMMUNITY TO DECIDE.

>> AS WE TALK ABOUT CELEBRATING ANNIVERSARIES OF THE DECLARATION, IT SEEMS THAT THEY GO ALL THE WAY BACK TO JOHN ADAMS.

I REDID SOMETHING HE WROTE ON JULY 3rd, 1776.

HE HOPES THAT AMERICANS WOULD CELEBRATE EVERY YEAR.

AND GAMES, BONDS FIRES AND ALL OVER THE CONTINENT.

FIRST, LET'S TAKE THE FACT THAT IT WAS WRITTEN ON JULY 3rd AND KIND OF QUIRKY.

HE THOUGHT THAT JULY 2nd WHEN HE WAS THE ONE WHO GOT THE LOW RESOLUTION PASSED TO BREAK AWAY FROM ENGLAND, HE THOUGHT WE WOULD BE CELEBRATING JULY 2nd.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> AMERICANS DECIDED TO CELEBRATE JULY 4th.

>> IS THAT BECAUSE THE DECLARATION IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT FOUNDING DOCUMENT?

>> IT WAS RECEIVED WITH GREAT CIRCUMSTANCE AT THE TIME WITH A LOT OF PUBLIC READINGS OF THE DECLARATION IN BOSTON AND PEOPLE CLIMBED UP TO THE BALCONY OF WHAT IS KNOWN AS THE OLD STATEHOUSE THAT HAD BEEN THE GOVERNOR'S BALCONY AND WITH THE GREAT APPLAUDS AND SHEARS.

IT WAS VERY MUCH PART OF THE EFFORT TO CONVINCE AMERICANS THAT INDEPENDENCE WAS IN FACT THE RIGHT DECISION AND THAT THE WAR WAS GOING TO BE WORTHWHILE AND THAT THE WAR COULD BE WON.

ALSO, ADAMS WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN INSISTING THAT IT OUGHT TO BE CELEBRATED IN THAT WAY.

IT REALLY DOESN'T TAKE OFF THE FOURTH OF JULY AS A BIG PUBLIC CELEBRATION UNTIL THE 1790S, BUT IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE IMPORTANT AT BUILDING A SENSE OF NATIONAL CHARACTER.

AND, A SENSE OF SHARED EXPERIENCES AS A NATION THAT THE COUNTRY HAD BEEN THROUGH THE WAR AND BEEN THROUGH THE ELABORATE AND CONTENTIOUS AND VERY CLOSE CALL OF RATIFYING THE CONSTITUTION BY 1789.

REALLY NOT UNTIL THE 1790S THAT THE REALLY BIG CELEBRATIONS AGAIN AND IT'S PART OF THE LARGER PROJECT OF CONSTITUTIONAL LYSING DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

THEY ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT DOCUMENTS SEPARATED BY 11 YEARS.

IT'S A PREAMBLE OF THE DECLARATION THAT I THINK AMERICANS CARE ABOUT THE MOST.

OFTEN IN THE CONSTITUTION, BUT IN A WAY IT'S WRITTEN INTO THE CONSTITUTION BY THE WAY WE CELEBRATE IT ON THE FOURTH OF JULY.

WE DON'T REALLY CELEBRATE CONSTITUTION DAY, WHICH IS SEPTEMBER 17th AND IT WASN'T A HOLIDAY INTO THE 20th CENTURY.

>> YOU WROTE A GREAT BOOK ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION.

TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAID, CONSTITUTIONAL LYSING THE DECLARATION.

>> THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, JEFFERSON WAS CHIEF OF AUTHOR.

JEFFERSON ALWAYS SAID, THIS WASN'T AN ORIGINAL IDEA AND IT WAS JUST AN ATTEMPT TO WRITE DOWN WHAT IS CONTAINED IN THE AMERICAN MIND.

MANY STATES DECLARED INDEPENDENCE.

IN THE DECLARATION OF RIGHTS AND AND EARLY MONTHS OF 1776 AND HAD LANGUAGE IN THEM THAT FOUND ITS WAY IN DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, BUT IT WASN'T SOMETHING THAT DROPPED OUT OF SKY, BUT IT WAS A DOCUMENT PRODUCED BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

JEFFERSON JUST ESSENTIALLY WROTE IT DOWN LIKE A SCRIBE.

THAT'S HOW HE WOULD HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT.

THESE IDEAS WERE CONSTITUTIONAL IDEAS, BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION, THE MASSACHUSETTS CONSTITUTION FROM 1780 AND SINCE THEY ARE ALL BORN EQUAL.

HOW THAT BECOMES CONSTITUTIONALIST BETTER IS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE SEEKING EMANCIPATION FROM SLAVERY.

IN 1783, FAMOUS CASE IN MASSACHUSETTS WERE A WOMAN WHO IS HELD AS A SLAVE IN MASSACHUSETTS FILES FOR FREEDOM AND CONSTITUTION SAYS ALL MEN ARE FREE AND BORN FREE.

I CANNOT BE A SLAVE AND SHE WINS THE CASE.

THAT IS THE MEANS OF CONSTITUTIONAL LYSING AND DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND IN STATE CONSTITUTIONS.

IT REALLY IS UNKNOWN UNTIL JUBILEE, 1826, WHICH IS THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND IS ALSO JULY 4th OF THAT YEAR.

BOTH JOHN ADAMS AND THOMAS JEFFERSON DIED THAT DAY.

THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT FIGURES OF WRITING THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

IN 1820S AROUND THE JUBILEE, BLACK ABOLITIONISTS INSIST THAT THE SPIRIT OF DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IS CONTAINED WITHIN THE CONSTITUTION AND THEY DO THE CONSTITUTIONAL LYSING.

IN A WAY, IT DOESN'T REALLY HAPPEN UNTIL THE CIVIL WAR.

LINCOLN IS INSTRUMENTAL AND HE WRITES ABOUT THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AS PART OF THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT IS WITH THE 14th AMENDMENT DOES, WHICH IS RATIFIED AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

>> SPEAKING OF SLAVERY AND DECLARATION, LET'S ADDRESS THE COMPLEXITY OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, ESPECIALLY IN THE EARLY DRAFTS THAT GET EDITED OUT, HIS DENUNCIATION TO SLAVERY, EVEN AS HE ENSLAVED MORE THAN 400 PEOPLE AT THAT TIME.

>> THIS IS A HARD ONE FOR AMERICANS TO WRESTLE WITH AND IT HAS BEEN HARD TO WRESTLE WITH EVEN WHEN JEFFERSON WAS ALIVE.

NORTHERNERS CAMPAIGNED AGAINST JEFFERSON ON THE BASIS OF NOT ONLY HIS STATUS AS A SLAVE OWNER, BUT WAS A FAIRLY WELL- KNOWN PUBLIC SECRET AT THE TIME THAT HE HAD CHILDREN WHO IS THE HALF-SISTER OF HIS DECEASED WIFE .

JEFFERSON'S RELATIONSHIP TO SLAVERY WAS A SCANDAL IN HIS LIFETIME.

IT REMAINS SO ACROSS TIME IN WAYS THAT ARE REALLY WORTH RE- EXAMINING AND IT'S ONE OF THE PROJECTS OF JEFFERSON'S VIRGINIA HOME TO LEAD A CONVERSATION FOR THE NATION AROUND MULTIPLE MEANINGS OF JEFFERSON'S PLEA OF LIBERTY AND UNIVERSAL RIGHTS AND OUR NEED AS A COUNTRY TO FACE THE HISTORY OF SLAVERY AND ITS MANY DESCENDENTS AND LEGACIES.

I THINK IT'S WORTH LOOKING AT HOW ODD IT IS THAT JEFFERSON AS AN OWNER OF HUMAN BEINGS DENOUNCED SLAVERY AS AN INSTITUTION IN HIS DRAFT OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND DENOUNCED SLAVE TRADE, THEN WEIRDLY BLAMED IT ON THE KING.

CONGRESS DELETED THIS PARAGRAPH.

IT WAS THE LAST AND FINAL LONGEST PARAGRAPH IN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, WHICH MOST OF WHICH IS A LIST OF GRIEVANCES.

>> THE ULTIMATE INDICTMENT OF THE KING FREDA >> THE ULTIMATE INDICTMENT.

THE WORST THING THE KING HAS DONE, BECAUSE THERE HAD BEEN SOME EFFORT TO CLOSE THE SLAVE TRADE AND HE IS BLAMING THE KING FOR HAVING MADE THOSE NOT HAPPEN.

IT'S A VERY COMPLICATED STORY, BUT ANY EVENT, CONGRESS LOOK AT THE DRAFT AND SAID, WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE THAT OUT IN ITS ENTIRETY.

THIS IS A TIME WHERE PEOPLE IN ENGLAND WHO ARE NOT SUPPORTIVE OF THE AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT LIKES TO POINT OUT THE HYPOCRISY OF AMERICANS WHO ARE CRYING OF LIBERTY WHILE HOLDING MILLIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS IN THE STATE OF SLAVERY AND THAT IT WOULD CALL MORE ATTENTION TO THE HYPOCRISY TO PUT THE LANGUAGE IN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND IT'S ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS AGAINST IT.

>> ONE OF THE GREATEST CONTRADICTIONS IS WHEN THEY ARE SITTING THERE IN THE ROOM AND YOU MENTIONED SALLY, BUT IN THAT ROOM IS ROBERT, OLDER BROTHER AND ENSLAVED VALLEY OF THOMAS JEFFERSON WHO CAME UP WITH THEM.

EXPLAIN TO ME THE COMPLEXITIES THAT MUST HAVE BEEN GOING ON IN JEFFERSON'S HEAD.

>> IS IN PART DETERMINED THE INTIMACY OF THE RELATIONSHIP, TOO.

WOULD HAVE SHAVED JEFFERSON EVERY DAY.

WOULD HAVE DRESSED JEFFERSON EVERY DAY.

HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN FETCHING BOOKS OR PAPERS FOR HIM IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER ENGAGED IN THIS PROJECT.

HE'S A VERY MYSTERIOUS FIGURE IN HISTORICAL RECORD WITH THE HISTORICAL RECORD INCREDIBLY ASYMMETRICAL AND WE KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT THOMAS JEFFERSON AND KNOW SO LITTLE OF ABOUT ROBERT HEMMINGS.

SO MANY HISTORIANS HAVE DONE TO RECOVER THAT LIFE AND THE LIFE OF SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE HELD BY JEFFERSON IN PARTICULAR JUST BECAUSE THE STORY IS SO IMPORTANT TO THE NATION'S FOUNDING.

THE BUILDING IN WHICH JEFFERSON DID THAT WRITING WAS ACTUALLY DESTROYED, BUT A REPLICA WAS BUILT DURING THE BICENTENNIAL, WHICH IS A FASCINATING MOMENT AND A MONUMENT TO THE WRITING OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND AN EXACT REPLICA OF THE BUILDING IN WHICH JEFFERSON DID THE WRITING WHILE ROBERT WAITED ON HIM.

IT'S CALLED DECLARATION HOUSE AND THERE'S AN AMAZING ARTIST CALLED CLARK WHO DID AN ILLUSTRATION THAT YEAR WHO REALLY TRIED TO WRESTLE WITH THE LEGACY OF THAT MOMENT OF THE NATION'S FOUNDING AND SHE FOUND PHOTOGRAPHS OF DESCENDENTS OF JEFFERSON AND SALLY HEMMINGS AND ALL OF THE DESCENDENTS OF ALL OF THE HEMMINGS IS SOME WHO WERE RELATED AND SOME WERE NOT PRE- SHE INTERVIEWED A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, AS WELL AS USING PHOTOGRAPHS.

ONTO THE WINDOWS OF THIS BEAUTIFUL BUILDING FROM THE INSIDE WHERE SHE PROJECTED THEIR EYES.

IT IS LIKE ALICE IN WONDERLAND.

HE WALKED ON THE STREET OF PHILADELPHIA AND LOOK AT THE BEAUTIFUL BUILDING AND THERE ARE GIANT EYES LOOKING AT EACH OF THE WINDOWS.

THEY ARE THE EYES OF THE DESCENDENTS OF JEFFERSON AND HEMMINGS JUST OCCUPYING THAT SPACE, BEARING WITNESS AND LOOKING UPON YOU AND THEY ARE MOVING AND ARE ANIMATED, BECAUSE SHE IS VIDEOTAPING THEM.

SOME PEOPLE ARE SMILING AND TELLING STORIES.

SHE ASKED TO TELL FAMILY STORIES.

I THINK IT'S AN EXAMPLE IN THE WAY IN WHICH ART AND STORYTELLING AND POETRY HISTORICAL WRITING PUBLIC HISTORY PROJECTS ARE ABLE TO DO THE REALLY IMPORTANT WORK OF CELEBRATING THE NATION'S FOUNDING, THE WRITING OF DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND ALSO INVITING US TO THINK ABOUT OUR PLACE IN THE NATION'S STORY AND THE PLACE OF PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT FOUNDERS IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE ONGOING NATURE OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN ONE OF YOUR BOOKS ABOUT HOW WE EACH TRIED EACH SIDE SOMETIMES TO CAPTURE HISTORY AND SOMETIMES ESPECIALLY WHEN WE ARE LOOKING AT OUR FOUNDING, WE MAKE IT OR DEMONIZING IT AND TOTALLY SUGARCOAT IT.

IS THAT HAPPENING WORSE RIGHT NOW?

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S WORSE, BUT I THINK IT IS DANGEROUS.

IT'S ALWAYS DANGEROUS WHEN YOUR VIEW OF THE PAST MAPS ON CONVENIENTLY TO HER POLITICAL PREFERENCES AND I THINK IF THAT SEEMS FAMILIAR TO YOU, YOU SHOULD BE CONCERNED.

I THINK WE HAVE A HYPERPOLARIZED POLITICS AND HYPERPOLARIZED SENSE OF THE AMERICAN PAST AND IT'S NOT WORSE IT MAY BE THAN IT HAS BEEN IN OTHER MOMENTS, BUT MORE DANGEROUS THAN IT HAS BEEN FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL AISLE, WHICH HAS BEEN INCREASINGLY DOCUMENTED IN PUBLIC OPINION RESEARCH, SO WHEN YOU HAVE A VIEW OF THE PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE THAT IS RECONCILABLE WITH THE VIEWS OF TIME HELD BY PEOPLE WHOM WHICH YOU DISAGREE POLITICALLY AND YOU ALSO THINK MAYBE THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY THAT YOU MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT WRONG.

YOU MAY ENTERTAIN THE POSSIBILITY THAT YOU ARE SO RIGHT THAT VIOLENCE MIGHT BE A PROPER MEANS TO ADVANCE YOUR VERSION OF THESE EVENTS.

THAT IS AN INSURRECTIONARY POLITICAL CULTURE.

>> JILL LEPORE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS A LOT.

> >> FINALLY, AS WE NEAR THE BIRTHDAY BASH THAT WE JUST HEARD ABOUT, DONALD TRUMP IS CALLED FOR JOY.

THOUGH, NOT THE MAN YOU'RE THINKING OF.

A RARE BUFFALO NICKNAMED DONALD TRUMP GIVEN THEIR SHARED DISTINCTIVE BLONDE CLIFF WAS SET TO BE SACRIFICED ON THE FESTIVAL OF AID AND IT WENT VIRAL AND LAST-MINUTE TURN OF FORTUNE.

THE BANGLADESHI GOVERNMENT SPARED HIM AND MOVED THE BUFFALO TO THE NATIONAL ZOO WHERE HE NOW ROAMS.

> >> MEANWHILE, JUST OUTSIDE OF ROME, TRUMP SOMETIMES EMPHASIS NEMESIS GOT BEHIND THE WHEEL OF FERRARI'S NEW ELECTRIC CAR.

FOLLOWING A DISAPPOINTING RESPONSE TO THE MODELS REVEAL PERHAPS SOME DIVINE INTERVENTION COULD BOOST ITS FORTUNES.

ELECTRIC HORSEPOWER AND 700 KILOS OF BUFFALO POWER.

THERE MUST BE SOME CONNECTION THERE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.