Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS ESCALATING IN SCALE AND INTENSITY AS EXPLOSIONS ROCK COUNTRIES ACROSS THE GULF AND ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH TRADE BLOWS.

I ASKED FORMER U.S.

DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR JOHN FEINER IF THE U.S.

AND IRAN STILL HAVE A PATH TO DE- ESCALATION.

>>> THEN, IRAN VOWS REVENGE AND SAYS IT WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH AMERICA.

COULD IT BE TIME FOR EUROPE TO RESURRECT ITS ROLE AS INTERLOCUTOR BETWEEN WASHINGTON AND TEHRAN.

THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS JOINS US.

>>> PLUS THE U.S.

JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN WARNS THAT AMERICA'S MISSION WILL NOT BE A SINGLE OPERATION AND THAT MORE U.S.

CASUALTIES SHOULD BE EXPECTED.

RETIRED AIR FORCE COLONEL CEDRIC WAITING BREAKS DOWN WHAT THE NEXT FEW WEEKS MIGHT HOLD.

AND ALSO AHEAD, MICHELLE MARTIN SITS DOWN WITH STEPHEN FOWLER, THE NPR REPORTER WHOSE INVESTIGATION REVEALED THE DISCREPANCIES IN THE DOJ'S HANDLING OF THE EPSTEIN FILES.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, SYLVIA A AND SIMON B POYNTER PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SHELDON WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA EWING, COMMITTED TO REACHING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

WAR IS SPREADING RIGHT ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST AS HOUR BY HOUR MORE COUNTRIES ARE FEELING THE IMPACT OF A CONFLICT LAUNCHED BY THE U.S.

AND ISRAEL AGAINST IRAN.

EARLIER PRESIDENT TRUMP GAVE HIS FIRST LIVE REMARKS SINCE THE START OF THE WAR, TALKING ABOUT WHY HE CHOSE TO LAUNCH IT AND HOW LONG IT MIGHT TAKE.

>> THIS WAS OUR LAST BEST CHANCE TO STRIKE, WHAT WE'RE DOING RIGHT NOW, AND ELIMINATE THE INTOLERABLE THREATS POSED BY THIS SICK AND SINISTER REGIME.

WE ARE ALREADY SUBSTANTIALLY AHEAD OF OUR TIME PROJECTIONS, BUT WHATEVER THE TIME IS, IT'S OKAY.

WHATEVER IT TAKES, WE WILL ALWAYS --AND WE HAVE RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING, WE PROJECTED 4 TO 5 WEEKS BUT WE HAVE CAPABILITY TO GO FAR LONGER THAN THAT.

>> THOSE COMMENTS COME AS THE U.S.

AND ISRAEL HAVE BEEN HITTING IRAN WITH WAVES OF STRIKES FOR A THIRD STRAIGHT DAY NOW.

TEHRAN IS RETALIATING, WARNING IT IS READY FOR A LONG WAR, AND LAUNCHING ATTACKS AGAINST NEIGHBORS WITH U.S.

BASES.

IN A PENTAGON BRIEFING, THE U.S.

DEFENSE SECRETARY AND THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF BOTH DENIED THAT REGIME CHANGE WAS WASHINGTON'S GOAL, WHILE ALSO CALLING ON IRANIANS TO RISE UP AGAINST THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

>> THIS IS NOT A SO-CALLED REGIME CHANGE WAR BUT THE REGIME SURE DID CHANGE AND THE WORLD IS BETTER OFF FOR IT.

WE DIDN'T START THIS WAR, BUT UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP, WE ARE FINISHING IT.

>> SO THAT, AS THE FOG OF WAR IS ALREADY STARTING TO SHOW.

EARLIER, THREE U.S.

FIGHTER JETS WERE SHOT DOWN BY KUWAIT IN AN APPARENT FRIENDLY FIRE U.S.

CENTRAL COMMAND SAYS IT IS INVESTIGATING AND THAT ALL SIX AIRCREWS SUCCESSFULLY EJECTED AND ARE NOW IN STABLE CONDITION.

IN TOTAL, THE U.S.

MILITARY HAS CONFIRMED THAT FOUR AMERICAN SERVICE MEMBERS HAVE DIED SINCE THE CONFLICT BEGAN.

IN IRAN, MEANTIME, THE DEATH TOLL IS CLIMBING.

THE RED CRESCENT'S IS MORE THAN 500 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE THE INITIAL ATTACKS OVER THE WEEKEND.

IRANIAN STATE MEDIA REPORTS MORE THAN 100 OF THOSE WERE SCHOOLCHILDREN WHO WERE KILLED IN AN ISRAELI STRIKE ON A GIRLS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

ISRAEL SAYS IT IS CHECKING REPORTS AND IS NOT AWARE OF ANY ISRAELI OR AMERICAN STRIKES IN THAT AREA.

SO NOW WITH NO SIDE SHOWING SIGNS OF BACKING DOWN, IS THERE A PATH TO DE-ESCALATION HERE OR HAS DIPLOMACY BETWEEN THE U.S.

AND IRAN BEEN KILLED FOR GOOD?

JOHN FEINER WAS DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HE JOINS US NOW.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAM.

AS WE CONTINUE TO PARSE THE SIX ORDINARY EVENTS, WE HAVE HEARD FROM SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH SAYING THIS IS NOT A SO-CALLED REGIME CHANGE WAR BUT THE REGIME SURE DID CHANGE.

IT IS A PITHY COMMENT.

IS THAT TRUE, THOUGH, EVEN WITH THE SEISMIC EVENTS OF THE LAST TWO DAYS?

>> NO I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.

I THINK THE IRANIAN REGIME TODAY REMAINS MAYBE IN A DIFFERENT FORM BUT STILL INTACT AND TAKING A STEP BACK, I THINK THE BIGGER CONCERN IS THE UNITED STATES HAS ENTERED INTO A WAR THAT IS NOT NECESSARY, THAT IS PROBABLY NOT LEGAL, AND THAT HAS NO CLEAR OBJECTIVES, EITHER MILITARY OR POLITICAL, AND EVERY TIME YOU ASK SOMEBODY IN THE ADMINISTRATION, OR EVEN THE SAME PERSON SPEAKING MULTIPLE TIMES, YOU GET A DIFFERENT ANSWER TO THOSE QUESTIONS.

INSPIRING, TO SAY THE LEAST.

IT SHOULD BE CONCERNING NOT JUST TO AMERICANS BUT TO OTHERS AROUND THE WORLD.

AND TO YOUR POINT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT DIPLOMACY IS STILL POSSIBLE, THE UNITED STATES HAS TWICE BEEN NEGOTIATING WITH IRAN IN THIS ADMINISTRATION AND CURTAILED AS ADMINISTRATIONS BY TAKING FORCE WHILE TALKS WERE STILL GOING ON.

THAT RAISES THE BAR AND MAKES DIPLOMACY SIGNIFICANTLY HARDER GOING FORWARD.

>> THE ADMINISTRATION HAS HAD A COUNTERPOINT IN THE LAST 24 TO 48 HOURS AND I WANTED TO LISTEN NOW TO U.S.

DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH WHO SAYS WE DIDN'T START THIS WAR BUT HERE IS HIS JUSTIFICATION.

>> IRAN WAS BUILDING POWERFUL MISSILES AND THROWN DRONES TO CREATE A CONVENTIONAL SHIELD FOR THEIR NUCLEAR BLACKMAIL AMBITIONS.

LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN.

A CONVENTIONAL FIELD FOR THEIR NUCLEAR BLACKMAIL AMBITIONS.

OUR BASES, OUR PEOPLE, OUR ALLIES ALL IN THEIR CROSSHAIRS.

IRAN HAD A CONVENTIONAL GUN TO OUR HEAD AS THEY TRIED TO LIE THEIR WAY TO A NUCLEAR BOMB.

>> WHAT ABOUT THOSE ARGUMENTS?

COULD THAT PROVED TO BE JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS PREEMPTIVE ATTACK?

>> WELL I SUPPOSE ANYTHING OVER THE BROAD SWATH OF TIME THAT WE WERE TOLD BY THIS ADMINISTRATION THAT THEY OBLITERATED, TOTALLY OBLITERATED, I UNDERSOLD, IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM LAST SUMMER.

IT IS, ACCORDING TO THE PUBLIC RECORD, IRAN IS NOT ENRICHING URANIUM TODAY SO THE IDEA OF AN IMMINENT THREAT POSED BY IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM IS BELIED BY THE BASIC FACTS OF THE STATE OF THAT NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

DOES IRAN HAVE CONVENTIONAL CAPABILITIES?

IT DOES.

IT HAS A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF BALLISTIC MISSILES.

IT HAS AN EVEN MORE SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF DRONES THAT CAN MINUTES COUNTRIES IN THE REGION.

NONE OF THOSE CAPABILITIES CAN REACH OR HIT THE UNITED STATES, AND BY THE WAY, THOSE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION INCLUDING CLOSE ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES MAINTAIN BOTH DEFENSIVE AND OFFENSIVE CAPABILITIES AIMED AT IRAN AND SO NOBODY SHOULD BE SURPRISED.

THIS IS A REGION OF THE WORLD IN WHICH THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF CONFLICTS IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES HAS TOO OFTEN BECOME EMBROILED IN THEM, NOTHING THAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION'S JESTS AN IMMINENT THREAT TO US OR CANDIDLY, THAT IRAN WAS ON THE VERGE OF ATTACKING ANY OF OUR PARTNERS OR ALLIES IN THE REGION IN THE NEAR-TERM.

SO AGAIN, IT'S A CONVENIENT TALKING POINT.

IT'S AN ARTFUL TURN OF PHRASE BUT THERE IS NO NUCLEAR THREAT TO SPEAK OF TODAY FOR IRAN AND THE CONVENTIONAL THREAT [ INAUDIBLE ] >> JOHN, YOU'RE COMFORTABLE WITH THAT?

THE AP, ASSOCIATED PRESS WAS REPORTING AT THE END OF FEBRUARY THAT A REPORT FROM THE IAEA INDICATED THAT IT BACK THEY COULDN'T VERIFY THAT ABOUT ANY KIND OF NUCLEAR RESTORATION, SHALL WE SAY, OF THOSE CAPABILITIES IN IRAN.

SO YOU'RE COMFORTABLE WITH THAT?

>> I MEAN I GUESS --HERE'S THE THING --WE WERE TOLD BY THE ADMINISTRATION, U.S.

ADMINISTRATION, THAT IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM HAD BEEN SET BACK FOR, AT A MINIMUM, SEVERAL YEARS, CALLING THREE YEARS, THAT THE PROGRAM HAD BEEN TOTALLY OBLITERATED.

IN JUST THE LAST FEW DAYS THAT IRAN IS NOT ENRICHING URANIUM TODAY.

IRAN MAINTAINS A SUPPLY SOMEWHERE, MAYBE UNDERNEATH A BUNCH OF RUBBLE, OF HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM THAT THEY ENRICHED OVER THE COURSE OF PREVIOUS YEARS, BUT THEY ARE NOT CURRENTLY PROCESSING THAT SERIAL.

IF THEY'RE NOT ENRICHING URANIUM THEY CAN'T BRING THAT MATERIAL TO WEAPONS GRADE OR PURSUE A WEAPON, AND BY THE WAY, IF THE PROGRAM WAS NOT TOTALLY OBLITERATED, IF THERE WAS STILL A MEANINGFUL THREAT, THAT SUGGESTS THAT THIS MILITARY OPTION FOR GOING AFTER THE PROGRAM MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THE BEST HORSE OF ACTION IN THE FIRST PLACE AND MAYBE THEY SHOULD'VE PURSUED A DIPLOMATIC DEAL LIKE THE ONE THAT THEY WITHDREW FROM IN 2018, THAT IRAN WAS ADHERING TO AT THE TIME .

>> NOW I WANT TO ASK YOU, JUST TO DEAL WITH THE HERE AND NOW, ESPECIALLY GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

MALIK, DONALD TRUMP TOLD CNN'S JAKE TAPPER JUST EARLIER THAT THE SO-CALLED BIG WAVE, IN HIS WORDS, WAS YET TO COME.

GIVEN THE FACT THAT YOU'VE SEEN, YOU'VE PLAYED THIS OUT, YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MIGHT LOOK LIKE, WHAT CAN HE BE GETTING AT HERE IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE U.S.

STRATEGIC CAPABILITY IS RIGHT NOW?

>> THE UNITED STATES HAS A FORMIDABLE MILITARY.

WE HAVE AN INCREDIBLY CAPABLE MILITARY.

WE HAVE THE STRONGEST MILITARY IN THE WORLD.

IF THE UNITED STATES WANTS TO DO MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE TO IRAN, PARTICULARLY IN IRAN'S WEAKENED STATE, WE CAN DO THAT, AND IT SEEMS LIKE THAT IS THE COURSE THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SEEMS TO BE ON.

SO I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THIS CAN BE A SUCCESSFUL MILITARY OPERATION.

WHAT I HAVE A LOT OF DOUBT ABOUT IS WHETHER THAT LEAVES US IN A BETTER PLACE IN THE AFTERMATH OF THIS, WHETHER THAT WILL ACTUALLY LEAD TO A DIFFERENT, MORE HOSPITABLE TO US AND OUR ALLIES REGIME IN IRAN.

SO FAR THAT HAS NOT BEEN THE CASE, AND NOTHING THAT I'VE SEEN THE UNITED STATES TO LITERALLY UP UNTIL NOW SUGGESTS THAT IRAN IS CHANGING ITS CALCULUS, STOPPING TAKING SHOTS AT OUR PARTNERS AND ALLIES, STOPPING TAKING SHOTS AT US.

WE'VE HAD U.S.

CASUALTIES NOW IN A WAR THAT WE CANNOT JUSTIFY IN TERMS OF BASIC NECESSITY.

SO WILL THIS LEAVE US BETTER OFF?

I DON'T SEE THE ARGUMENT HOW IT >> YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT MAKES AMERICAN SAFER.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU, GIVEN HOW WELL YOU KNOW THIS, HOW FORMAL IS IRAN EVEN IN THIS CURRENT STATE?

HOW LONG DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN KEEP THIS UP?

BECAUSE IRAN'S NATIONAL SECURITY CHIEF, HE SAYS LOOK, IRAN WILL DEFEND ITSELF REGARDLESS OF THE COSTS AND THEY ARE PREPARED FOR A LONG WAR.

THOSE ARE WORDS BUT SPEAK A BIT TO THEIR CAPACITY, AS YOU THINK ABOUT HER STANDING ARMY, THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD IN THE STOCKPILE OF MISSILES AND DRONES THAT THEY HAVE.

>> THE CONCERN I HAVE IS NOT THAT IRAN CAN SOMEHOW WIN A CONFLICT AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

THAT'S FAR-FETCHED AND ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

THE CONCERN I HAVE IS THAT IRAN CAN INFLICT SIGNIFICANT CASUALTIES IN PARTNER COUNTRIES, TO CIVILIANS, TO OUR MILITARY FORCES.

WE'VE ALREADY HAD AT LEAST THREE U.S.

SERVICE MEMBERS KILLED IN THIS CONFLICT AND I HOPE THERE AREN'T MORE BECAUSE IT IS HARD TO JUSTIFY THE LOSS OF ANY OF THOSE LIVES GIVEN THE ABLE TO EXPLAIN AT THIS POINT.

SO CAN IRAN GET OFF MORE SHOTS THAT CAUSE MORE HARM AND MORE DAMAGE?

THEY CAN.

CAN THEY BEAT THE UNITED STATES MILITARILY?

OF COURSE THEY CAN'T AND THAT IS A CREDIT TO FIRST AND FOREMOST OUR SERVICEMEMBERS, OUR MILITARY CAPABILITIES.

YOU SHOULD GO TO WAR WHEN IT'S NECESSARY AND YOU SHOULD RISK AMERICAN LIVES ONLY AT THE LAST RESORT.

THAT'S NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THIS CASE.

>> GIVEN THAT YOU ALLUDED TO THIS EARLIER, CONGRESS DID NOT AUTHORIZE THE ATTACKS.

WHAT YOU BELIEVE ?

IS THERE ANY CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS FOR WAR WITH IRAN?

YOU DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS, BUT AGAIN, GIVEN YOU'VE BEEN IN THE ROOM, THERE ARE WAR POWERS HERE, AND WHAT ABOUT CONGRESS?

THEY KEEP SAYING, SOME OF THE REPUBLICANS I'VE HEARD, THEY'LL SAY IF THIS GOES ON FOR MORE THAN 30 DAYS THEN DONALD TRUMP SHOULD GO TO CONGRESS.

>> I WON'T GET INTO ALL THE TECHNICALITIES.

THAT'S NOT AT ALL HOW IT WORKS.

LOOK, I THINK AS A BASIC MATTER, MOST AMERICANS WILL PROBABLY AGREE THAT IT YOU ARE GOING TO LAUNCH A SIGNIFICANT TO CHANGE, TRY TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT OF A HOSTILE COUNTRY, CONGRESS SHOULD HAVE SOME SAY IN WHETHER OR NOT THAT CONFLICT IS AUTHORIZED.

EVEN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, WHEN THEY WENT TO WAR IN IRAQ, WHICH WAS A MASSIVE MISTAKE, WENT TO CONGRESS IN ADVANCE OF THAT AND GOT AN AUTHORIZATION FOR THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE.

THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT A GOOD JUDGMENT TO HAVE GONE TO WAR BUT AT LEAST THEY WENT TO THE EXERCISE OF MAKING SURE THIS WAS BROADLY ENDORSED BY THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT.

THAT DIDN'T TAKE PLACE HERE TO BE HONEST, MY BIGGER CONCERN IS THAT THIS IS A VERY UNWISE DECISION THAT HAS BEEN MADE, BECAUSE THE RISKS DON'T JUSTIFY WHAT SO FAR HAS BEEN JUST A MODEST BENEFIT.

THE IRANIAN REGIME THAT ALL OF US LOATHE, AND I'M IN THAT CATEGORY OF PEOPLE WHO LOATHE THIS REGIME, IS STILL AS OF RIGHT NOW IN PLACE.

>> AND GIVEN HOW YOU FEEL, WE HAVE SEEN THE ATTACK ON ALLIES IN THE REGION.

I'M NOT SURE HOW READY THE UNITED STATES WANTS FOR THAT OR THE ALLIES THEMSELVES.

WHAT DO YOU SEE THE RISKS OF AM WONDERING, DID THAT SURPRISE YOU AS WELL, THE SCALE OF IT?

>> I THINK WE'VE BEEN LULLED INTO A BIT OF A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY AGAIN, AS OF THE EXTRAORDINARY CAPABILITIES OF OUR ARMED FORCES.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS ORDERED A NUMBER OF MILITARY ACTIONS DURING JUST MORE THAN A YEAR IN OFFICE.

OBVIOUSLY WAS PART OF THE 12 DAY WAR ALONGSIDE ISRAEL THAT TOOK PLACE WITH IRAN LAST SUMMER AND CONDUCTED, FROM A MILITARY PERSPECTIVE, VIRTUALLY FLAWLESS OPERATIONS.

THEN THERE'S THE VENEZUELA OPERATION, WHICH THE PRESIDENT ORDERED AN EXTREMELY HIGH RISK RAID, SENDING U.S.

SPECIAL FORCES ON THE GROUND INTO A HOSTILE, DENSELY POPULATED FOREIGN CAPITAL, TO EXTRACT THE HEAD OF STATE OF THAT COUNTRY.

AND AGAIN, OUR MILITARY PERFORM VIRTUALLY FLAWLESSLY IN CONDUCTING THOSE OPERATIONS.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE THESE SORTS OF OPERATIONS LOW-RISK, AND I WORRY THAT THE ADMINISTRATION BELIEVES IT HAS LEARNED A LESSON THAT IT CAN DO THESE SORTS OF THINGS WITHOUT ARE LEARNING WITH THE CASUALTIES THAT HAVE ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, AND WITH THE RELATIVELY MODEST ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THIS OPERATION UP UNTIL NOW, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED IN TAKING OUT SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF LEADERSHIP, THAT THIS IS NOT AS EASY AS WE SOMETIMES MADE IT LOOK .

>> ESPECIALLY AS THEY HAVE ALREADY COME IN WITH REPLACEMENTS FOR THAT LEADERSHIP AND THERE IS A LEADERSHIP COUNCIL IN PLACE RIGHT NOW.

JOHN FEINER FOR US, REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHTS.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> A TOP IRANIAN OFFICIAL SAYS TEHRAN WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH THE UNITED STATES AND IS VOWING REVENGE AFTER THE KILLING OF AYATOLLAH ALI HUM IN A. IRAN'S RETALIATION HAS BEEN FIERCE AND WIDESPREAD, STRIKING MANY OF ITS GULF NEIGHBORS OVER THE PAST TWO DAYS.

INSIDE IRAN, MORE THAN 500 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED AND MANY MORE INJURED.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE RED CRESCENT.

THIS WAS THE SCENE OUTSIDE TEHRAN'S GANDHI HOSPITAL BADLY DAMAGED OVER THE WEEKEND, FORCING PATIENTS TO EVACUATE.

EUROPE HAS BEEN A KEY INTERLOCUTOR WITH THE IRANIAN REGIME BUT HARDENED ITS STANCE AFTER TEHRAN'S BLOODY, BRUTAL CRACKDOWN ON ITS OWN PEOPLE.

ELLIE IS A SENIOR POLICY FELLOW AT THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS AND WORKED CLOSELY ON THE DIPLOMACY LEADING TO THE 2015 NUCLEAR DEAL AND SHE JOINS US NOW FROM LONDON.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

AS WE WATCH RECENT EVENTS, IT IS TRULY UNPRECEDENTED, THE KILLING OF IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER AND OF COURSE THE AFTERMATH HAS IT NOW PLAYS OUT ON THE GROUND.

CELEBRATIONS IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

THEN WE HAD MORNING AND OTHER, EVEN AS THESE AIRSTRIKES CONTINUE AT THIS HOUR.

WE'VE SEEN STRIKES ON CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE.

WE JUST TALK ABOUT WILL.

HOW DO YOU PUT ALL OF THIS TOGETHER IN TERMS OF DESCRIBING THE MOOD IN IRAN RIGHT NOW?

>> IT'S A COUNTRY OF OVER 90 MILLION PEOPLE, SO JUST LIKE IN THE UNITED STATES, YOU HAVE A REAL RANGE OF OPINIONS ABOUT EVENTS.

IT'S THE SAME IN IRAN AND I THINK THAT DESCRIPTION YOU LAID DOWN OF BOTH MOURNING AND CELEBRATION, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THIS IS A DIVERSE COUNTRY, THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN, WE SAW IN JANUARY, HAS LOST AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF ITS BASE LEGITIMACY WITH ITS OWN PEOPLE AND WAS WILLING TO USE UNPRECEDENTED FORCE TO KILL THOUSANDS OF ITS OWN CITIZENS.

AND YET, IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER, AFTER HIS DEATH, IT WAS ALSO CLEAR THAT HE ALSO HAS HIS SUPPORT BASE, PRIMARILY THOSE WHO ARE VERY IDEOLOGICAL TO THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN, AND SEEMED WILLING TO BASICALLY TAKE ON THIS FIGHT WITH TWO NUCLEAR ARMED STATES, ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES, BEFORE THEY SURRENDER.

AND WE MAY BE LOOKING AT A CASE WHERE THEY ARE NOW WILLING TO THIS FIGHT BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER OFF-RAMP FOR THEM.

>> WHAT YOU DESCRIBED SEEMS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS, ESPECIALLY FOR THE PEOPLE OF IRAN.

WE SAW THE CIVILIAN CONSEQUENCES ALREADY, A STRIKE ON THAT GIRL'S SCHOOL.

REPORTEDLY MORE THAN 150 WERE KILLED AT THAT SITE.

APPARENTLY IT WAS PART OF A MILITARY BASE OR PERHAPS CLOSE TO.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT AN EVENT LIKE THAT AND IRANIANS SEEING THAT ON TV, WHAT DOES IT TELL THEM IN TERMS OF SHAPING THEIR PERCEPTION ABOUT WHAT IS TO COME HERE?

>> UNFORTUNATELY WE SAW SIMILAR SCENES IN THE JUNE WAR THAT ISRAEL BEGAN AGAINST IRAN, WHERE CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE WAS HIT.

WE'VE SEEN, FRANKLY, ISRAEL CONDUCT HITS AGAINST HOSPITALS AND SCHOOLS IN PLACES LIKE GAZA, AS WELL.

SO I THINK THE PUBLIC IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND IRAN UNDERSTANDS THE HIGH COST OF WAR.

COSTS OF WAR, I THINK FOR THE ISRAELI PUBLIC, UNFORTUNATELY, IN THIS COUNTER ESCALATION BY IRAN.

AND I THINK IT'S A REFLECTION THAT THE BONDS BEING DROPPED FROM THE SKIES AND BEING LAUNCHED THROUGH THE MISSILES WILL CARRY A HIGH CIVILIAN COST FOR NOT JUST IRAN AND ISRAEL BUT ALSO THE UNITED STATES AND THE REST OF THE REGION, AS WE'VE SEEN THE LAST 48 HOURS.

>> THE REGIME APPEARS TO BE, AS YOU INDICATED EARLIER, TRYING TO STABILIZE ITSELF THROUGH AN INTERIM LEADERSHIP COUNCIL.

HOW MUCH POWER DO YOU BELIEVE THAT COUNSEL HAS RIGHT NOW?

AND I AM CURIOUS YOUR THOUGHTS ON ALI LARIJANI AND HOW DOES HE FIT IN TO THIS MOMENT?

BECAUSE IF YOU BELIEVE HIS MESSAGES AND HOW HE STEPPED FORWARD, HE REALLY IS EMERGING AS A POWERFUL FIGURE.

>> IT'S TRUE AND IN THE LAST EIGHT MONTHS, REALLY, HE HAS BEEN A FIGURE THAT WAS PUSHING THE DECISION-MAKING FROM THE SHADOWS AND TRYING TO CREATE CONSENSUS AMONGST THE DIFFERENT RANKS OF THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT, BUT ALSO THE SECURITY FORCES IN THE COUNTRY.

NOW HE IS EMERGING AS ONE OF THE THREE FIGURES, IN MY VIEW, THAT ONE SHOULD WATCH, BESIDES FROM THIS RACE NOW FOR THE SUCCESSION OF IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER, AND THIS INCLUDES FORMER PRESIDENT ROMANI, WHO'S IN THE BACKDROP, BUT HE'S STILL QUITE INFLUENTIAL, AND THE SPEAKER OF IRAN'S PARLIAMENT.

NOW THIS TROIKA SEEM TO BE TRYING TO PUSH THE DECISION- MAKING IN THE SYSTEM TOWARDS FINDING A SOLUTION IN WHICH THE REGIME SURVIVES BUT ALSO SHOWS THAT IT DOES NOT SURRENDER TO U.S.

MAXIMUM PRESSURE IN THIS WAR.

SO UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE CIVILIANS INVOLVED, I DO THINK THAT WE ARE IN THIS WAR CONDITION FOR SOME DAYS OR POTENTIALLY WEEKS, GIVEN THE TEMPO WE ARE SEEING AND THE RHETORIC WE ARE SEEING FROM BOTH TEHRAN AND WASHINGTON AT THE MOMENT, AND THE NEED FOR TRUMP TO SAY THAT HE'S HAD VICTORY AND FOR THE IRANIAN REGIME TO SAY IT HAS VICTORY BEFORE THEY ACCEPT ANY SORT OF CEASE-FIRE CONDITIONS.

>> YOU KNOW WE SPEAK OF WHAT THIS WILL MEAN IN TERMS OF THAT HARD-LINE POSTURE FOR IRANIANS THEMSELVES.

IT IS POSSIBLE, IN FACT, THAT TENS OF THOUSANDS WERE BRUTALLY MASSACRED JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, TRYING TO STAND UP TO THE REGIME.

I ALWAYS THINK ABOUT THEM, THINKING THAT THEY ARE STILL GRIEVING.

THEY ARE STILL TRAUMATIZED AND YET WE HAVE SECRETARY HEGSETH SAYING WE HOPE THE IRANIAN PEOPLE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP OVER THE WEEKEND TOLD IRANIANS, TAKE OVER YOUR GOVERNMENT.

IT WILL NOW BE YOURS TO TAKE.

HOW REALISTIC IS ANY OF THIS WHEN I'M SURE THAT THESE MENACING SECURITY SERVICES INSIDE IRAN ARE STILL TRYING TO IN IMITATE IRANIANS AND REALLY HAVING SUCCESS AT DOING SO?

>> LOOK, I THINK THAT FOR THOSE PEOPLE ON THE STREETS, NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY DESPISE AND ARE OPPOSED TO THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN, IT'S UNLIKELY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO STORM THE STREETS WHEN NOT ONLY THEY HAVE THEIR OWN IMPRESSIVE SECURITY FORCES STILL MAINTAINING COMMAND AND CONTROL OF THE STREETS, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE SHRAPNEL OF BOMBS DROPPING THROUGH THE SKIES.

SO IT REALLY DOESN'T SEEM REALISTIC TO ME THAT IN WARTIME CONDITIONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S MESSAGE --WHICH BY THE WAY, WAS ALSO A MESSAGE DELIVERED IN JUNE WHEN BOTH ISRAEL AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WERE ENCOURAGING THIS SORT OF TOPPLING FROM WITHIN BY ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO RISE UP ON THE STREETS.

IT FAILED THEN AND IS LIKELY TO FAIL NOW.

NOW THERE IS A THEORY, PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF HAS ALLUDED TO IT, THAT RIGHT NOW IT'S NOT SAFE FOR PEOPLE TO COME OUT, BUT THAT THEY ARE FORCE TO TIP THE BALANCE OF POWER IN TERMS OF THE USE OF VIOLENCE ON THE STREET, TO FAVOR PROTESTERS TO COME OUT AGAIN AND BASICALLY STORM A VERY WEAK SECURITY APPARATUS ON THE GROUND.

THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN IF IT'S TRUE BUT WHAT IS, I THINK, QUITE CERTAIN IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS GAME OF POTENTIAL REGIME CHANGE, THERE IS A HARD-CORE IDEOLOGICAL BASE FOR THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN.

MY CONCERN IS THAT WE MAY GET SORT OF IRAQ 2.0 WHERE YOU HAVE A SUCCESSFUL TOPPLING POTENTIALLY OF A REGIME BUT THE AFTERMATH OF INSURGENCY WARFARE IS WHERE THE BLOODY AND VERY CHAOTIC START PART OF IT STARTS.

>> IT COULD GET QUITE UGLY WITH THE EXAMPLE YOU POINT OUT.

SOME SAY WHAT'S MISSING HERE IS IN OPPOSITION FIGURE TO UNITE PEOPLE.

THE EXILED SON OF THE SHAH, KEY HERE.

I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO HIM RECENTLY.

>> THEY TRUST ME AS A TRANSITIONAL LEADER, NOT AS THE FUTURE KING OR FUTURE PRESIDENT OR FUTURE WHATEVER .

I'M TOTALLY FOCUSED ON MY MISSION IN LIFE, WHICH IS LET ME BRING THE COUNTRY TO A POINT THAT THEY CAN MAKE THAT FREE CHOICE.

THAT WILL BE ENOUGH FOR ME HAVING SAID MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

>> CREDIBLE, ESPECIALLY GIVEN WHAT YOU DESCRIBED AS QUITE GRIM, THE PROSPECTS OF HAVING SOME KIND OF CIVIL WAR WITHIN IRAN.

IS HE THE FIGURE?

IS HE THE PERSON TO COME FORWARD HERE?

>> LOOK, I THINK MANY IRANIANS INSIDE THE COUNTRY, JUST LIKE ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, WANT TO HAVE THE CHOICE OF SELF DETERMINATION, WANT THEIR VOTE TO COUNT, WANT TO HAVE AN ECONOMY THAT DELIVERS FOR THEM.

BUT I THINK WE ARE FAR FROM THIS POTENTIAL TRANSITION PHASE OF GOVERNMENT.

WE ARE SEEING ON THE GROUND THAT THE REGIME HAS HELD A UNIFIED POSITION.

THE SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT IS NOT CRACKING FROM WITHIN AND THEY STILL RETAIN A STRONG MONOPOLY, IF NOT FULL MONOPOLY OVER THE USE OF VIOLENCE, SO WHILE THE OPPOSITION ABROAD AND INSIDE THE COUNTRY ARE PREPARING FOR THE DAY AFTER AND THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SMART STRATEGY FOR ALL POSITIONS, I THINK IT IS A LONG WAY TO GET THERE AND I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT THERE ARE MANY FIGURES, CIVIL SOCIETY FIGURES, ACTIVISTS, POLITICAL PRISONERS INSIDE IRAN THAT HAVE PAID A VERY HEAVY COST OVER THE LAST FOUR DECADES, BASICALLY FIGHTING THE SYSTEM AND OPPOSING THIS SYSTEM FROM INSIDE THE COUNTRY, AND WE SHOULDN'T FORGET THEIR VOICES AND THE FACT THAT THEY ALSO HAVE A BASE IN THE COUNTRY FOR POSITIONS.

SO I THINK THE KEY WILL BE TO SEE IF THERE IS A LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE WITHIN THE OPPOSITION THAT PROVIDES A BIG TENT FOR >> CHALLENGING, WHAT YOU POINT OUT THERE, TO BE SURE.

SPEAKING OF CHALLENGING, IT SEEMS THE UK AND EUROPE ARE SOMEWHAT FLAT-FOOTED YOU.

PRIME MR.

KEIR STARMER SHIFTED HIS POSITION.

HE'S NOW ALLOWING THE U.S.

TO USE BRITISH BASES.

HOW DO YOU SEE EUROPE'S ROLE, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT WE SAW A SUSPECTED DRONE STRIKE AT THAT RITTICH BASE IN CYPRUS.

>> I THINK THAT FOR THOSE OF US LIKE MYSELF WHO WARNED AGAINST THE START OF SUCH A WAR, UNFORTUNATELY WE'VE PROVEN VERY CORRECT IN SAYING THAT WHAT HAPPENS IN IRAN WILL NOT STAY IN IRAN AND YOU WILL HAVE --WE GOT RELATIONS NOT JUST IN THE MIDDLE EAST BUT NOW POTENTIALLY ON EUROPEAN TERRITORY FOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND MY CONCERN IS THAT THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT, IN TERMS OF TRYING TO STAY IN THE GOOD BOOKS OF WASHINGTON, POTENTIALLY FOR REASONS THAT ARE BILATERAL TO THEIR RELATIONSHIP OR RELATED TO THE FIGHT IN UKRAINE, BELIEVE THAT BY SUPPORTING THE U.S.

ON THIS FIGHT, THEY CAN PROP UP SOME POINTS ON OTHER ISSUES.

MISSION CREEP ALREADY HAPPENING.

YOU HAVE PRESIDENT TRUMP NOW NOT DISCOUNTING THE POSSIBILITY OF HAVING GROUND TROOPS.

DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE EUROPEANS ARE GOING TO SUPPORT THIS GROUND TROOP OFFENSIVE, OFFENSIVE OPERATIONS INSIDE IRANIAN TERRITORY?

SO I THINK THE EUROPEAN PUBLIC NEEDS TO HAVE A REAL DEBATE ON THIS BEFORE THEIR GOVERNMENTS GO IN ON THIS FIGHT.

>> INDEED.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>>> NOW THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF, GENERAL DANIEL PAYNE SAYS THAT AFTER DAYS OF STRIKES THE U.S.

HAS NOW GAINED AIR SUPERIORITY OVER IRAN.

CAME WARNED, HOWEVER, THAT THE U.S.

MISSION WILL NOT BE A SINGLE OVERNIGHT OPERATION AND THAT MORE U.S.

LOSSES ARE EXPECTED.

HE ALSO ANNOUNCED THE DEPLOYMENT OF ADDITIONAL U.S.

FORCES AS WE WERE DISCUSSING, TO THE REGION, WHICH ARE EXPECTED TO ARRIVE ON MONDAY.

FOR MORE NOW I WANT TO BRING IN RETIRED U.S.

AIR FORCE COLONEL CEDRIC CLAYTON, AND HE JOINS US WE HEARD FROM DAN KANE, GIVING US THAT MORE FULSOME BRIEFING.

I JUST WANT TO LISTEN TO HIM FOR A MOMENT.

>> THIS IS NOT A SINGLE OVERNIGHT OPERATION.

THE MILITARY OBJECTIVES AT CENTCOM IN THE JOINT FORCE HAVE BEEN TASKED WITH WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ACHIEVE AND IN SOME CASES WILL BE DIFFICULT AND GRITTY WORK.

WE EXPECT TO TAKE ADDITIONAL LOSSES AND AS ALWAYS WE WILL WORK TO MINIMIZE U.S.

LOSSES.

>> IS LAYING THE TABLE THERE, ISN'T HE, COLONEL LAYTON?

IS WARNING AMERICANS THERE'S MORE TO COME HERE.

>> HE SURE IS, PAULA.

ONE OF THE THINGS WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT GENERAL CAINE WAS ACTUALLY SAYING, THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG-TERM PROPOSITION, AND AS ELLIE MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY IN HER SEGMENT WITH YOU, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE LEGISLATED OR EVEN COERCED FROM THE AIR.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE DONE ON THE GROUND AND WHEN GENERAL KANE TALKS ABOUT DIFFICULT, GRITTY WORK THAT LIES AHEAD OF US, THAT IS GOING TO REALLY MEAN EITHER SOME INTRICATE SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES GOING IN THERE OR POTENTIALLY INTELLIGENCE OPERATIVES GOING IN THERE, ALL LAW THE CIA OR SOMETHING SIMILAR TO THAT.

SO THIS IS A VERY DIFFICULT ISSUE BECAUSE IRAN, BEING A VAST COUNTRY THAT IT IS, WITH OVER 90 MILLION PEOPLE, IS NOT GOING TO BE AN EASY AREA TO PACIFY, IF THAT IS ACTUALLY THE GOAL.

AND IT'S ALSO NOT GOING TO BE AN AREA WHERE YOU CAN GO IN THERE AND WITH IMPUNITY GET RID OF WEAPONS OF WHATEVER TYPE, WHETHER IT'S THE MISSILES, THE BALLISTIC MISSILES THAT ARE PART OF THE EFFORT RIGHT NOW, THE MISSION RIGHT NOW , OR EVEN THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

>> GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE, OBVIOUSLY AS A FORMER AIR FORCE COLONEL, LOCAL AIR SUPERIORITY, HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THAT AND HOW MUCH YOU BELIEVE IT WILL BLUNT IRAN'S ABILITY TO COUNTERSTRIKE HERE?

>> SO IT WILL HAVE AN EFFECT.

LOCAL AIR SUPERIORITY BASICALLY MEANS THAT YOU'RE IN CONTROL OF THE AIRSPACE OVER A CERTAIN SPECIFIC AREA.

THE GENERAL DIDN'T DEFINE SPECIFICALLY WHAT HE MEANT BY LOCAL AIR SUPERIORITY, IF HE MEANT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF IRAN OR HE MEANT CERTAIN DISCRETE AREAS.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT THE IRANIANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO LAUNCH A FEW AIRCRAFT BUT THOSE AIRCRAFT WERE SHOT DOWN NEAR QATAR, THE QATARI AIR FORCE REPORTS SHOOTING THEM DOWN WITH BRITISH HELP AND SO THAT WAS ONE ASPECT OF THIS PARTICULAR OPERATION.

AND THEN YOU ALSO HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THERE WERE SEVERAL AIRCRAFT THAT THE ISRAELIS CLAIMED TO HAVE TAKEN OUT WHILE ON THE TARMAC IN WESTERN IRAN, SO THESE WERE AN F4 AND F5.

THESE ARE OLDER MODEL U.S.

AIRCRAFT.

SO THAT IS INDICATIVE OF AT LEAST LOCALIZED AIR SUPERIORITY SO IT MEANS THAT THE IRANIANS, WHO ARE AT THE VERY LEAST GOING TO HAVE AN ALMOST --WILL HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT TIME, MAYBE EVEN IMPOSSIBLE TIME IN THOSE AREAS OF LAUNCHING AIRCRAFT AGAINST ANY U.S.

OR ISRAELI AIR ASSETS.

IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO STOP ALL THE MISSILE LAUNCHES SO THAT'S BASICALLY THE DIFFERENCE THERE .

>> AND IT'S A SIGNIFICANT ONE.

WE DID SEE UNFORTUNATELY THAT CHAOS AND THE SKIES IN KUWAIT.

I'M WONDERING WHEN YOU GOT THAT NEWS, WHAT YOU WERE THINKING.

THEIR AIR DEFENSES ACCIDENTALLY SHOT DOWN THREE U.S.

FIGHTER JETS.

THANKFULLY ALL THE CREWMEMBERS EJECTED AND ARE RECOVERING.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WHEN YOU HEARD THAT?

>> I THOUGHT RIGHT AWAY THAT THIS WAS A TRAINING ISSUE.

BASICALLY A TRAINING AND AN INTEROPERABILITY ISSUE.

SO WHAT'S ESSENTIAL WHEN IT COMES TO OPERATIONS OF THIS TYPE IS FROM A MILITARY PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO BE CONFLICT AND PRESUMABLY THE KUWAITI OPERATORS OF THE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM SAUDIS, WHAT THEY CALL TARGETS ON THEIR RADAR SCOPES AND THOUGHT THAT WERE TARGETS THAT WERE COMING AFTER KUWAIT.

NOW WHAT THEY SHOULD'VE REALIZED IS THAT IT WAS A HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT IRANIAN AIR ASSETS WOULD BE GOING INTO KUWAIT AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME, AND THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE TYPE OF AIRCRAFT.

SINCE THAT APPARENTLY DID NOT HAPPEN AND THEY IN ESSENCE SAID --I DON'T WANT TO SAY PANICKED EXACTLY BUT WERE AT LEAST PRETTY TRICKY TRIGGER-HAPPY IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE AND WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING IS THEY SHOOT DOWN THREE AIRCRAFT WHERE THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN ABLE TO SEE WHERE THEY WERE TAKING OFF FROM, WHAT THEIR FLIGHT PATH WAS, AND OF COURSE IF THERE IS AN ISSUE FROM THE U.S.

SIDE, IF THEY DIDN'T PASS THAT INFORMATION ON TO THE KUWAITIS, THAT WOULD ALSO BE AN ISSUE, WHETHER IT'S ONE OR THE OTHER OR BOTH, IT CLEARLY MEANS THAT INTEROPERABILITY IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE WORKED AT, HAS TO BE TRAINED FOR.

THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE EXERCISES, MULTINATIONAL EXERCISES BETWEEN COUNTRIES LIKE THIS AND THAT'S A KEY THING .

>> INCREDIBLY BUSY SKIES GIVEN THE FACT THAT THESE COUNTERSTRIKE'S ARE STILL ONGOING.

THERE ARE TWO SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT HERE, COLONEL.

ONE IS THAT IRAN HAS BEEN CRIPPLED AND WE HAVE SEEN SOME COUNTERSTRIKE'S BUT WE ARE UNLIKELY TO SEE MORE.

THE OTHER, THOUGH, IS THAT THEY ARE PACING THEMSELVES.

I'M WONDERING WHAT SCHOOL OF THOUGHT YOU'RE IN THERE.

WHICH CAMP ARE YOU IN?

>> RIGHT NOW I'M IN THE CAMP OF THEY ARE PACING THEMSELVES, AND I SAY THAT BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN PICTURES FROM IRAN SHOWING ACTUALLY TWO ROWS OF DRONES LINED UP VERY NEATLY IN SOME UNDERGROUND BUNKER.

THAT IS A CRITICAL ELEMENT RIGHT THERE, ASSUMING THE PICTURES ARE REAL, WHICH I THINK THEY ARE.

THAT INDICATES THAT THEY HAVE CERTAIN CAPABILITIES.

SO THEY'VE GOT A DOCTRINE ON THE IRANIAN SIDE THAT BASICALLY INVOLVES THE USE OF SWARM TECHNIQUES, AND THEY DO THIS IN THERE IS THE AERIAL COMPONENT WHERE DRONES, LIKELY A SERIES OF DRONES WILL BE USED TO OVERWHELM THE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS AND THOSE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS WOULD BE EITHER THE ISRAELI AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS OR THE GULF STATE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS, OR OF COURSE THE U.S.

AIR DEFENSES THAT ARE SUPPORTING BOTH OF THOSE OTHER ENTITIES.

SO THAT'S ONE ASPECT.

THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS IS THE SWARM TECHNIQUES ARE ALSO USED IN THE PERSIAN GULF ITSELF AND THAT'S WHERE THE IRANIANS HAVE OFTEN USED FAST BOATS TO COME AFTER LARGER VESSELS, TO INCLUDE AIRCRAFT CARRIER, AND WHEN THEY DO THAT KIND OF THING, WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO IS USE THEIR ASYMMETRIC ADVANTAGES, THEIR LOCAL KNOWLEDGE PLUS THE AGILITY OF THESE PLATFORMS, TO GO AFTER LARGER VESSELS THAT HAVE A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME OF MANEUVERING.

>> IT IS THAT AGILITY THAT YOU DANGEROUS IN TERMS OF TRYING TO FIGHT THIS.

I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME LEFT BUT I AM CURIOUS.

THERE IS A DEBATE RIGHT NOW ABOUT HOW LONG THE U.S.

CAN KEEP THIS UP.

THERE ARE DWINDLING STOCKPILES OF MUNITIONS.

HOW SERIOUSLY DO YOU TAKE THAT RISK OR DO YOU BELIEVE IT'S OVERBLOWN?

>> I THINK I TAKE THAT RISK VERY SERIOUSLY, PAULA, AND THE REASON I TAKE IT SERIOUSLY IS BECAUSE FOR A LONG TIME WE TALKED ABOUT THE DEFENSE INDUSTRIAL BASE HERE IN THE U.S.

AND IN THE LARGER WESTERN WORLD.

NOT BEING ABLE TO REPLENISH THOSE STOCKS WHEN IT COMES TO UKRAINE, WHEN IT COMES TO DEFENDING ISRAEL IN JUNE AND IN OTHER PREVIOUS ENGAGEMENTS.

WE HAVE THE CAPABILITY RIGHT NOW BUT WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THOSE MISSILE STOCKS LIKE FOR THE PATRIOT MISSILE BATTERIES, FOR EXAMPLE.

IF THOSE STOCKS ARE REPLENISHED AND REPLENISHED QUICKLY.

SO THE DEFENSE INDUSTRY REALLY NEEDS TO STEP IT UP, OR IT'S THE U.S.

DEFENSE INDUSTRY OR THE EUROPEAN DEFENSE INDUSTRIES.

THIS IS ESSENTIAL.

THIS IS ESSENTIAL FOR OUR SECURITY AND FOR POSSIBLE FUTURE CONFLICT, NOT ONLY WITH IRAN, AS WE ARE EXPERIENCING NOW, BUT ALSO WITH POTENTIAL FOLKS LIKE RUSSIA AND CHINA.

>> AND COLONEL LAYTON , JUST TO PUT A QUICK BUTTON ON THAT, GIVEN WHAT YOU JUST SAID, HOW MUCH LONGER DO YOU THINK THIS CAN GO ON?

ARE WE TALKING 4 TO 6 WEEKS OR DO WE THINK?

TO 3 MONTHS THIS COULD GO ON?

>> I THINK IT COULD GO ON FOR A LONGER TIME THAN 4 TO 6 WEEKS.

2 TO 3 MONTHS IS A REASONABLE TIME BUT ALSO WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THE U.S.-MADE THING.

THEY THINK THEY'RE DONE WITH EVERYTHING AND THEN THINGS WILL UNRAVELING IRAN EVEN FURTHER THAN THEY'VE ALREADY UNRAVELED.

WE MAY HAVE A REAL MESS ON OUR HANDS IF WE ARE NOT CAREFUL.

>> SOME SOBERING INSIGHTS THERE, COLONEL LAYTON, WE THANK YOU ESPECIALLY FOR YOUR EXPERTISE WHEN IT COMES TO THE U.S.

AIR FORCE.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> IN THE U.S., THE COUNTRY IS STILL REELING FROM THE FALLOUT OF THE EPSTEIN FILES, WHICH ENSNARED THE WORLD'S ELITE INCLUDING CEOS, A FORMER PRINCE AND EVEN PRESIDENT TRUMP.

BUT DESPITE MILLIONS OF PAGES BEING RELEASED, AN NPR INVESTIGATION REVEALS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WITHHELD OR REMOVED A NUMBER OF PAGES INVOLVING THE PRESIDENT.

STEPHEN FOWLER IS THE REPORTER WHO BROKE THAT STORY AND HE TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN HOW HE UNCOVERED THE DISCREPANCIES AND WHAT THIS SUGGESTS ABOUT THE DOJ'S HANDLING OF THE FILES.

>> STEPHEN FOWLER, FAX SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU'RE NPR'S LEAD ON THE EPSTEIN FILES.

YOU BEEN COMBING THROUGH WHAT, LIKE 3 MILLION DIFFERENT FILES, 3 MILLION PAGES.

THERE WAS NO TABLE OF CONTENTS.

THERE'S NO SORT OF ORDER TO IT BUT THERE'S SOMETHING THAT MADE YOU THINK THERE WAS SOMETHING MISSING THAT YOU COULDN'T JUST ATTRIBUTE TO OVER REDUCTION OR CONFUSION OR DISARRAY.

SO WHAT WAS IT?

>> THERE WAS THIS POWERPOINT THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PUT TOGETHER IN LATE JULY AND AUGUST OF LAST YEAR ABOUT THE MAXWELL AND EPSTEIN CASES AND IN THAT POWERPOINT WAS A SLIDE THAT TALKED ABOUT PROMINENT NAMES.

ATOP THE PROMINENT NAMES WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP AND UNDER HIS NAME THERE WERE TWO DIFFERENT WOMEN THAT HAD ALLEGATIONS OR HIM.

THERE WAS ONE THAT HAD A VERY SALACIOUS CLAIM THAT SAID FOUR DECADES AGO HE SEXUALLY ABUSED HER WHEN SHE WAS A MINOR.

THERE WAS THIS SECOND ALLEGATION FROM A WOMAN WHO SAID WHEN SHE WAS A TEENAGER AND ACCOMPANIED EPSTEIN ON TRAVEL, SHE MET TRUMP AT HIS MAR-A-LAGO CLUB AND THERE WERE SOME REMARKS MADE ABOUT ISN'T THIS A GOOD ONE.

AND WHAT STOOD OUT WAS THAT FOR THE FIRST CLAIM , THE CLAIM THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SEXUALLY ABUSED A MINOR, THERE WAS ONLY ONE OTHER MENTION OF THAT CLAIM IN ALL OF THE MILLIONS OF EPSTEIN FILES THAT WE WERE ABLE TO LOOK AT.

AND IT WAS PART OF A LIST OF CLAIMS AGAINST THE PRESIDENT THAT THE FBI COLLECTED.

THEY LOOKED THROUGH THESE CLAIMS.

MANY OF THEM WERE MARKED AS UNVERIFIABLE OR NOT CREDIBLE, OR COULDN'T BE TRACKED DOWN BUT THIS CLAIM SAID THAT IT WAS ENOUGH TO BE SENT TO A FIELD OFFICE FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

AND DOING A LITTLE BIT MORE DIGGING, WE FOUND THAT INTERVIEW THAT TOOK PLACE BUT THERE WAS NO INFORMATION ABOUT THAT CLAIM AGAINST TRUMP SO THERE WERE A LOT OF MISSING PIECES.

>> ULTIMATELY FIGURED OUT THAT THE FBI HAD INTERVIEWED ONE OF THE COMPLAINANTS SEVERAL TIMES.

HOW DID YOU FIGURE THAT OUT?

BECAUSE THOSE INTERVIEWS ARE NOT IN THE FILE.

>> THERE ARE SEVERAL SETS OF STAMPS ON THE BOTTOM OF ALL OF THESE DOCUMENTS IN THE EPSTEIN FILES.

THE MOST COMMON IS THE EFTA AND THEN A MULTIPLE DIGIT NUMBER.

THAT'S THE EPSTEIN FILES TRANSPARENCY ACT, WHICH IS THE LAW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SIGNED TO RELEASE THE FILES.

THIS TRACKING NUMBER IS A SUBSTANTIAL SEQUENTIAL NUMBER OF DOCUMENTS THAT ARE RELEASED.

THIS FBI INTERVIEW WITH THIS WOMAN WHO MADE THIS ACCUSATION HAD THREE STAMPS.

THERE WAS ANOTHER SET OF STAMPS THAT HAD A TRACKING NUMBER FOR NONTESTIFYING WITNESS DOCUMENTS THAT WERE HANDED OVER IN THE CRIMINAL CASE FOR GHISLAINE MAXWELL AND THEN THERE WAS A SECOND SET OF STAMPS IN THE MIDDLE AND LOOKING AT THOSE NUMBERS IN ORDER YOU FOUND, AS THE BOTTOM STEP INCREASED BY ONE, TO GO TO THE NEXT FILE, THE TOP STAMP INCREASED BY SIX, SUGGESTING THAT THERE WERE OTHER DOCUMENTS THERE, AND THAT MIDDLE STAMP WENT UP BY 53.

SO YOU HAVE THESE NUMBERS THAT SUGGEST THERE WERE MULTIPLE DOCUMENTS OF MULTIPLE DOZENS OF PAGES IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S POSSESSION THAT WERE NOT MADE AVAILABLE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

>> AND THE LAW REQUIRES WHAT?

DOES THE LAW REQUIRE THAT THESE DOCUMENTS BE MADE AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC?

>> THERE ARE A FEW EXCEPTIONS.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT CAN BE REDACTED AND WITHHELD TO PROTECT VICTIMS PERSONAL INFORMATION AND THE REDACTIONS HAVE BEEN A LITTLE HIT OR MISS THAT WE FOUND.

WE'VE FOUND VICTIMS NAME HAVE BEEN INCLUDED AND OTHER INFORMATION.

THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS ALSO TAKEN DOWN AND REPUBLISHED THINGS THAT FIT THAT BILL.

AT THE SAME TIME, THERE ARE A FEW WAYS THE DOCUMENTS CAN BE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S AS IF IT'S A DUPLICATE FILE THROUGHOUT THESE CASES, IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS A PRIVILEGED DOCUMENT OF INFORMATION DEALING WITH THEIR DELIBERATIVE PROCESS AND THINGS OR IF IT'S PART OF AN ONGOING FEDERAL INVESTIGATION, AND IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT ANY ONE OF THOSE THREE WITHHOLDING PRINCIPLES APPLY TO ANY OF THESE DOCUMENTS.

WE ASK THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, THEY DID NOT ANSWER SPECIFICS ABOUT THESE DOCUMENTS OR SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT WE FOUND.

SO LIKE MANY THINGS WITH THE EPSTEIN FILES, MICHELLE, WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT BEING MENTIONED IN THESE FILES DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ENGAGED IN WRONGDOING OR SOME CRIMINAL ACTIVITY BUT THE FACT THAT THE FBI INTERVIEWED THIS WITNESS MULTIPLE TIMES SUGGESTS THAT THEY FELT THERE WAS A REASON TO INTERVIEW THIS WITNESS MULTIPLE TIMES.

DO YOU HAVE ACCESS TO, OR DID YOU SEE ANY OF THOSE >> THE ONLY INTERVIEW THAT'S IN THE FILES THE FIRST OF FOUR INTERVIEWS, AND WE KNOW BECAUSE THERE IS AN FBI CASE LAW CALLED THE SERIAL REPORT AND THIS WITNESS TESTIMONY DOCUMENT LOG THAT WAS HANDED OVER IN THE MAXWELL CASE.

WE KNOW THAT THERE WERE FOUR CONVERSATIONS.

WE KNOW THAT THEY TOOK PLACE OVER A SEVERAL MONTH SPAN.

WE KNOW THAT THE FIRST ONE DOES NOT MENTION THE SPECIFIC SALACIOUS ALLEGATION AGAINST DONALD TRUMP, AND WE KNOW THAT THE OTHER THREE ARE NOT THERE.

WE HAVE THE BEGINNINGS OF THIS STORY IN THE INITIAL CONVERSATION AND THE TIP THAT WAS CALLED IN.

WE HAVE SOME SEMBLANCE OF THE END OF THIS STORY IN THAT IT MADE IT INTO A JUSTICE DEPARTMENT POWERPOINT ABOUT THE CASE, BUT THERE'S SO MUCH MISSING IN BETWEEN THAT WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

AND TO YOUR POINT ABOUT BEING MENTIONED IN THE FILES, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF INCREDIBLY SALACIOUS AND AUDIBLY UNTRUE THINGS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND OTHERS THAT ARE IN THE FILES BUT THEY ARE IN THE FILES.

THEY ARE RELEASED IN THEIR ENTIRETY AND YOU CAN READ THEM AND EVALUATE THEM, AND SEE THAT INVESTIGATORS DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING THERE.

THIS IS THE EXCEPTION.

>> NEEDLESS TO SAY, YOU ASKED THE WHITE HOUSE ABOUT THIS, AND WHEN YOU DID, WHAT DID THEY SAY?

>> THE WHITE HOUSE HAS BEEN PRETTY CONSISTENT IN DEFENDING HOW THEY HAVE HANDLED THE EPSTEIN FILES AND THE CALLS TO RELEASE THE FILES, AND THE LAW.

A WHITE HOUSE SPOKESWOMAN SAID THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN TOTALLY EXONERATED BY THE FILES AND SAID THAT HE HAS DONE MORE FOR EPSTEIN SURVIVORS THAN ANYONE EVER BEFORE HIM, POINTING TO THE SIGNING OF THIS LAW THAT WILL MAKE THINGS PUBLIC, AMONG OTHER THINGS, AND SO THEY ARE CONFIDENT THAT HOW THESE FILES HAVE BEEN RELEASED AND WHAT THEY SAY IS NO SIGN OF WRONGDOING.

>> OKAY, BUT WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE FILES?

WHAT ARE THEY SAYING ABOUT THOSE SPECIFIC FILES?

>> THE WHITE HOUSE ANSWER.

THE WHITE HOUSE HAS DIRECTIVES TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS NOT ANSWERED US, TO NOT ANSWER OTHER MEDIA OUTLETS THAT HAVE ASKED AND THEY HAVEN'T ANSWERED MEMBERS OF CONGRESS THAT ARE ASKING.

THE RANKING MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE, ROBERT GARCIA, SENT A LETTER TO ATTORNEY GENERAL PAM BONDI ASKING FOR MORE ANSWERS BECAUSE HE PICKED THROUGH THOSE EXCEPTIONS FOR THE FILES BEING MADE PUBLIC AND HE SAID IT DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE A DUPLICATE BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DUPLICATE ZERO.

HE SAID IT DOESN'T SEEM THAT THERE IS ANYTHING PRIVILEGED IN THESE DOCUMENTS SO HE ASKED THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO ANSWER POINT-BLANK IF THERE IS AN ONGOING FEDERAL INVESTIGATION INTO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, AND WE DON'T HAVE THOSE ANSWERS BUT WE ALSO HAVE HIS REPUBLICAN HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE MEMBER JAMES COMBER TOLD REPORTERS LAST WEEK THAT HE WAS LOOKING INTO THE REPORTING THAT NPR DID AND HE WAS STILL TRYING TO GET ANSWERS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE AND JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, TOO.

>> WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO TO FOLLOW UP ON THIS?

DO THEY DISCREDIT YOUR REPORTING THAT SAYS THAT THESE THEY ARE NOWHERE ELSE TO BE FOUND?

DO THEY AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THAT IS TRUE?

>> I HAVE SPOKEN WITH MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, WHO HAVE SENT A LETTER AND ASKED ALL THE QUESTIONS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

OUTSIDE OF THE CLINTONS DEPOSITION TESTIMONY, THERE WAS QUESTION AND ANSWER FROM REPORTERS.

SOMEBODY ASKED ABOUT THE FBI FILES AND IF THEY WERE CONCERNED THERE IS A COVER-UP, AND THAT IS WHERE CHAIRMAN COMBER SAID THAT HE SAW THE REPORT AND WAS LOOKING INTO IT.

BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER FOR THIS THAT IN MANY WAYS, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE JUST AS IN THE DARK ABOUT WHAT IS IN THESE FILES AND WHAT'S HAPPENING, AS THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

THEY HAVE DONE THEIR OWN SEPARATE INVESTIGATION.

THAT'S HOW WE WERE ABLE TO HAVE EMAILS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS FROM EPSTEIN'S ESTATE IN PREVIOUS MONTHS.

THEY ARE RUNNING A PARALLEL INVESTIGATION TO ANYTHING THAT HAPPENED WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

HAS ALLOWED MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO GO IN AND LOOK AT THE UNREDACTED FILES, WE HAVE SEEN LAWMAKERS FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE SAY THERE'S INFORMATION THAT'S STILL REDACTED, EVEN FOR US.

THERE'S QUESTIONS EVEN FOR US.

AND SO THE VENN DIAGRAM OVERLAP OF WHAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT KNOWS, WHAT LAWMAKERS KNOW , AND WHAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC KNOWS IS SMALLER THAN YOU WOULD THINK.

>> BUT YOU KNOW WHAT'S INTERESTING IS YOU TALK ABOUT REDACTIONS.

THIS DOESN'T SEEM LIKE REDACTIONS.

THIS SEEMS LIKE ENTIRE DOCUMENTS WERE REMOVED.

THAT'S WHAT I'M HEARING YOU SAY, WHICH MEANS, IF THAT'S THE CASE, THAT IF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS GO BACK INTO THESE SECURE AREAS AND TRY TO LOOK AT THESE DOCUMENTS, IT DOESN'T SEEM AS THOUGH THEY WILL BE THERE.

>> NO, AND THAT'S WHAT WE FOUND WHEN THIS REPORTING CAME OUT.

YOU HAVE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS SAY WE WERE LOOKING INTO THIS.

WE WERE LOOKING INTO THESE ALLEGATIONS.

THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTS FOR US TO LOOK AT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE FILES.

SO YOU HAVE TWO THINGS GOING ON HERE.

YOU HAVE THE WITHHOLDING OF PUBLIC AND THERE'S THE PRESSURE TO PUSH TO HAVE THESE MADE PUBLIC.

AND THEN YOU HAVE SEPARATELY OTHER MENTIONS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP FROM THIS SECOND ACCUSER SAID SHE MET TRUMP AT MAR-A- LAGO WENT SHE WAS A TEENAGER, BEING ABUSED, THAT WERE UP AND THEN DOWN AND THEN PUT BACK UP AGAIN, IN SOME CASES HAVEN'T BEEN PUT BACK UP AGAIN.

SO THE PUBLIC RECORD ABOUT THESE TWO SPECIFIC CLAIMS IS MUCH LESS THAN WHAT IT SHOULD BE UNDER THE LAW AND WHAT LAWMAKERS SAY IT SHOULD BE AND WHAT , DEPENDING ON THE DAY AND TIME YOU LOOK AT THE FILES, IT'S A DIFFERENT STORY.

>> JUST TO MAKE CLEAR, THE WHITE HOUSE HAS RESPONDED TO THIS SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCE BY SAYING , AS THEY HAVE DONE BEFORE, THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DONE MORE FOR EPSTEIN'S VICTIMS THAN ANYBODY BEFORE HIM BY SIGNING THE LAW, WHICH HE DIDN'T WANT TO SIGN, IT HAS TO BE SAID.

AT THIS POINT I HEAR YOU SAYING THEY'RE GOING BACK AND FORTH JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN NONRESPONSIVE, IS THAT ACCURATE?

>> RIGHT.

THIS IS A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION THAT HAS TURNED INTO A POLITICAL PROBLEM.

ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, WHEN I WAS FOLLOWING PRESIDENT TRUMP ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, RELEASING THE EPSTEIN FILES WAS PART OF A MESSAGE THAT THERE WAS A GROUP OF POWERFUL PEOPLE IN CONTROL, HIDING THE TRUTH ABOUT THE EPSTEIN FILES OR OTHER THINGS, AND THAT IF YOU BROUGHT HIM INTO OFFICE, HE WAS GOING TO UNVEIL THE TRUTH AND FIGURE OUT, AND RELEASE THE FILES, AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST YEAR OR SO IS AN EVER- CHANGING STORY FROM TRUMP AND FROM THE FBI, AND FROM OTHERS WHO MADE THOSE CLAIMS, AND IT'S BECOME A POLITICAL PROBLEM NOT JUST WITH DEMOCRATS OR INDEPENDENTS OR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY BE PREDISPOSED TO LIKE THE PRESIDENT'S POLICIES, WE HAVE SEEN MAJOR CRACK UPS IN THE MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MOVEMENT AND MENTALITY BECAUSE NOW I HAVE TALKED TO MANY REPUBLICANS AND FROM SUPPORTERS WHO FEEL THAT THE PRESIDENT IS THE POWERFUL PERSON WHO IS HOLDING THE TRUTH FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THAT, WHEN YOU TAKE THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST EPSTEIN AND MAXWELL AND OTHERS MENTIONED IN THERE, IT JUST A COMBINATION WHERE NOBODY IS GOING TO BE SATISFIED BECAUSE IT'S A POLITICAL PROBLEM OF A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION WITH REAL PEOPLE'S STORIES POST BY THE WAYSIDE.

>> YOU JUST TOLD US THAT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS HAVE NOW OPENED INQUIRIES INTO HOW THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS HANDLED THE RELEASE BUT REALISTICALLY, REALISTICALLY, WHAT LEVER DO THEY HAVE TO COMPEL THE RELEASE OF THESE DOCUMENTS?

>> PREVIOUSLY THERE HAVE BEEN THE IDEA OF FLOATING CONTEMPT AGAINST THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, OR OPENING UP OTHER THINGS.

THE DEMOCRATS ON THE HOUSE COMMITTEE SAY THAT THEY HAVE A STANDING SUBPOENA FOR INFORMATION AND THAT THIS MIGHT VIOLATE THE SUBPOENA, IT MIGHT VIOLATE THEIR OVERSIGHT POWERS, BUT REALLY WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THERE IS A PUBLIC PRESSURE CAMPAIGN THAT HAS EMERGED FROM THIS, FROM THE REPORTING OF PEOPLE LIKE ROGER SULLENBERGER, THE INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST WHO FIRST FOUND A DISCREPANCY, TO NPR'S REPORTING, TWO OTHER STORIES GETTING PICKED UP ON BY THE NEW YORK TIMES AND THE WALL STREET JOURNAL AND OTHERS, IS THAT THIS IS ENTERED THE PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS AND PUBLIC CONVERSATION.

YOU HAD EPSTEIN SURVIVORS AT THE STATE OF THE UNION HIGHLIGHTING THIS, SO IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT'S IN THE FILES THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN.

IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT'S IN THE 3 MILLION FILES THAT DO EXIST OUT THERE.

BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY BECAUSE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES AROUND WHAT WAS PROMISED AND HOW THOSE PROMISES MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN KEPT.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, IN ADDITION TO THE STORY, YOU HAVE REPORTED ON THE FBI'S SEIZURE OF 2020 ELECTION MATERIALS IN GEORGIA, WHERE AFFIDAVITS RELIED ON CLAIMS THAT STATE INVESTIGATORS HAD ALREADY EXAMINED.

AND SO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE STORIES, WHICH SORT OF TOUCH ON HOW LAW ENFORCEMENT IS PROCEEDING, UNDER WHAT PROMPTS, AND WITH WHAT DEGREE OF THOROUGHNESS, DO YOU SEE A SORT OF A PATTERN HERE OR DO ANY THROUGH LINE AND HOW LAW ENFORCEMENT IS RESPONDING TO THESE PROMPTS AND HOW THE PUBLIC IS RESPONDING TO THAT?

>> THERE'S CERTAINLY A THROUGH LINE OVER THE LAST DECADE OR SO OF THIS TRUST IN PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS AND SORT OF THIS SHIFTING OF THE OVERTON WINDOW OF WHAT AN INVESTIGATION IS AND HOW IT SHOULD BE CONDUCTED BASED ON THE PERSON WIELDING THE POWER.

IN 2020 AND IN 2021, AS THE ELECTION RESULTS WERE DONE AND AS THE CHALLENGES TO THE ELECTION TO PLACE, I DID A LOT OF REPORTING IN GEORGIA, WHERE I'M BASED, ABOUT THE EFFORTS TO CHALLENGE THE RESULTS OR THE FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT VOTE COUNTING AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND THERE WAS HARD DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE OF WHAT THE WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO KNEW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT SAID, AND THEN THERE WAS THE COUNTER NARRATIVE THAT TRIED TO OVERRIDE THAT AND I THINK YOU'RE SEEING SOME OF THE SAME THINGS HERE, ONE, WITH THE 2020 ELECTION BEING LITIGATED FOR THE SIXTH YEAR IN A ROW BUT TWO, WITH THE EPSTEIN FILES WHERE THERE ARE THE DOCUMENTS, THERE ARE THE HARD EVIDENCE AND THE CONNECTING OF THE DOTS AND SHOWING OF THE WORK THAT IS BUTTING UP AGAINST A NARRATIVE OF POWER AND CONTROL AND WHAT A CONCLUSION TO AN INVESTIGATION MIGHT LOOK LIKE BEFORE THE INVESTIGATION EVEN STARTS.

>> WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME IS THAT WHEN IT COMES TO LOOKING AT, AS YOU POINTED OUT, RELITIGATING THE 2020 ELECTION FOR THE SIXTH YEAR IN A ROW, WHEN IT COMES TO THAT IT SEEMS LIKE PEOPLE WANT TO STICK WITH THEIR SIDE.

IT'S LIKE YOU'RE FOR TRUMP SO THEREFORE YOU THINK THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

IF YOU'RE NOT FOR TRUMP YOU THINK WILL KNOW IT WASN'T.

IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THIS EPSTEIN STORY IS DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO BREAK WITH THEIR TRIBE, AS IT WERE, AND I'M JUST CURIOUS WHY YOU THINK THAT IS.

>> I THINK THE THING THAT MAKES THE EPSTEIN FILES CHALLENGING, MICHELLE, IS THAT MOST OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN OR WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC WERE IT NOT FOR THIS LAW.

YOU DON'T PUT IN THE RAW INGREDIENTS OF AN INVESTIGATION AND ALL THE UNVERIFIED AND UNVESTED THINGS.

YOU SEE THE FINAL PRODUCT, WHICH IS CHARGES WERE NOT CHARGES, AND THE EVIDENCE IN THE EXHIBITS AND EVERYTHING LIKE THAT.

BUT KIND OF OPENING UP 3 MILLION PAGES TO THE PUBLIC TO SEE, YOU DO SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE CRAFTING THEIR OWN NARRATIVE AND FINDING WHAT THEY WANT TO IN THERE.

BUT BEING ABLE TO SEE EVERYTHING THAT WENT INTO THEIR AND THE THINGS THAT AREN'T IN THERE I THINK HAVE ALLOWED MORE PEOPLE TO TRUST THE DOCUMENTS THAT THEY DO SEE AND TRUST THE DOCUMENTS AND EVIDENCE THAT DID GO IN THERE, AND KIND OF HEARING FROM PEOPLE IN POSITIONS OF POWER.

AND SO, WITH THE 2020 ELECTION AND THE EPSTEIN FILES, WE HAVE FOUND POWER SHOWING OUR WORK IN WHAT WE DO, AND DOCUMENTING THE DOCUMENTS AND HOW WE FOUND THINGS, AND HOW WE GOT IT.

AND THAT'S ONE THING WHY I THINK MY STORY HAS RESONATED SO MUCH ON BOTH OF THOSE TOPICS BUT I THINK IT'S SOMETHING WITH THE PUBLIC, TOO, IS IT IS NO LONGER TRYING TO TAKE THE WORDS OF INSTITUTIONS, WHETHER IT BE THE GOVERNMENT OR THE MEDIA THAT PEOPLE DON'T TRUST, THEY CAN ALSO EVALUATE FOR THEMSELVES AND REGAIN TRUST IN THOSE INSTITUTIONS AS WELL.

>> STEVE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> FINALLY FOR US, RETURNING TO OUR TOP STORY, THE DOCTOR OF IMPRISONED NOBEL PEACE LAUREATE NARCOS MOHAMED THE IS CALLING FOR THE RELEASE OF ALL POLITICAL PRISONERS INSIDE IRAN.

WITH HER MOTHER BEHIND BARS, SHE SAYS HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO ENTER ITS PRISONS.

SHARED THIS POIGNANT REFLECTION ON X. MY HEART IS BREAKING FOR MY MOM AND HELD BEHIND THE PRISON WALLS, NOW MORE THAN EVER.

THEY ARE TRAPPED BETWEEN THE CRUELTY OF A BRUTAL REGIME AND TERRIFYING THUNDER OF EXPLOSIONS OUTSIDE.

WE CANNOT ALLOW POLITICAL PRISONERS, ESPECIALLY THOSE IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AND THOSE UNDER EXECUTION SENTENCES TO BE FORGOTTEN.

THE MESSAGE THAT FEELS ESPECIALLY PERTINENT FOLLOWING THE MASS ARRESTS DURING RECENT PROTESTS IN IRAN WHICH HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH REPORTS TO BE IN THE TENS OF THOUSANDS.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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