Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> NO MATTER HOW HARD ANYONE TRIES TO FRIGHTEN US, WHOEVER TRYING TO IS UP PRESS US, OUR WILL, OUR CONSCIOUSNESS, NO ONE HAS DONE A THING IN HISTORY.

>> IT WAS NEVER IN DOUBT, STILL, HE DECLARES A LANDSLIDE VICTORY.

WHAT SHOULD THE WORLD EXPECT FROM SIX MORE YEARS OF PUTIN?

AND ISRAELI FORCES RAID GAZA'S AL SHIFA'S HOSPITAL AGAIN.

DOES THIS PIT NETANYAHU FURTHER AGAINST THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

I ASK RICHARD HAASS.

>>> THEN, DELAY, DELAY, DELAY.

DONALD TRUMP'S LEGAL STRATEGY APPEARS TO BE WORKING, BUT WE GET A REALITY CHECK FROM FORMER TRUMP PROSECUTOR ANDREW WEISSMANN.

PLUS -- >> THAT CRISIS OF 2020, WE'RE STILL LIVING INSIDE OF IT IN 2024.

>> THE YEAR EVERYTHING CHANGED.

HARI LOOKS AT THE ENDURING LEGACY OF THE COVID PANDEMIC, WITH SOCIOLOGIST ERIC KLINENBERG.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

TONIGHT, WE FOLLOW TWO MAJOR STORIES, AND THEIR GLOBAL IMPACT.

IN RUSSIA, VLADIMIR PUTIN IS ON A VICTORY LAP AFTER CLAIMING A LANDSLIDE ELECTION WIN.

THE OUTCOME, OF COURSE, WAS NEVER IN DOUBT, BUT WHAT'S REALLY NOTABLE ARE THE LONG LINES OF PEOPLE WHO JOINED THE NOON AGAINST PUTIN PROTEST, WHICH HAVE BEEN CALLED BY ALEXEI NAVALNY BEFORE HIS DEATH.

>>> MEANWHILE, IN GAZA, FULL-FLEDGED FAMINE IS NOW IMMINENT.

THAT'S THE WORD USED BY THE U.N.

WHILE THE EU FOREIGN POLICY CHIEF ACCUSES ISRAEL OF USING STARVATION AS A WEAPON OF WAR.

THE IDF HAS RAIDED AL SHIFA HOSPITAL AGAIN, WITH CASUALTIES REPORTED.

ALL OF THIS AS PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES WORSENS.

HE SAID U.S. SENATE MAJORITY LEADER CHUCK SCHUMER'S CALL FOR NEW ISRAELI ELECTIONS ARE, QUOTE, TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.

IN A MOMENT, I'LL SPEAK WHO RICHARD HAASS, FORMER U.S.

DIPLOMAT IN MULTIPLE ADMINISTRATIONS, BUT FIRST, FRED PLEITGEN LOOKS AT PUTIN'S ELECTION, AND WHAT SIX MORE YEARS OF PUTIN MEANS FOR RUSSIA AND THE REST OF THE WORLD.

>> Reporter: A LANDSLIDE VICTORY FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN THAT WAS NEVER IN DOUBT.

SECURING THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT A FIFTH TERM IN OFFICE AND SOLIDIFYING HIS GRIP ON POWER WITH A RECORD 87% OF THE VOTE.

>> Translator: WHEN WE ARE CONSOLIDATED, AND I THINK NOW IT IS UNDERSTOOD TO EVERYONE, NO MATTER HOW HARD ANYONE TRIES TO FRIGHTEN US, WHOEVER TRIES TO SUPPRESS US, OUR WILL, OUR CONSCIOUSNESS, NO ONE HAS EVER MANAGED TO HAVE DONE SUCH A THING IN HISTORY.

>> Reporter: BOTH THE U.S. AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE CONDEMNING THE ELECTION.

ANY SERIOUS OPPOSITION CANDIDATES WERE BANNED IN ADVANCE, AND DISSENT EFFECTIVELY OUTLAWED.

AND YET, A SURPRISING SHOW OF DEFIANCE, WITH PROTESTERS TARGETING DOZENS OF POLLING STATIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

SETTING FIRE TO BALLOT BOXES, POURING DYE INTO OTHERS.

WHILE IN BERLIN, GERMANY, THOUSANDS TURNED UP AT THE RUSSIAN EMBASSY FOLLOWING CALLS FROM THE OPPOSITION TO WARM POLLING STATIONS.

INCLUDING THE WIDOW OF THE LATE OPPOSITION LEADER ALEXEI NAVALNY WHO DIED SUDDENLY IN AN ARCTIC PENAL COLONY LAST MONTH.

SHE SAID SHE WROTE HER HUSBAND'S NAME ON THE ELECTION BALLOT AND HAS VOWED TO CONTINUE HIS WORK.

AND IN HIS POST-ELECTION ADDRESS, PUTIN UTTERED NAVALNY'S NAME FOR THE FIRST TIME, CLAIMING HE WOULD HAVE AGREED TO RELEASE HIM IN A PRISONER SWAP.

>> Translator: A FEW DAYS BEFORE MR. NAVALNY PASSED AWAY, SOME COLLEAGUED ASKED ME IF THERE IS AN IDEA TO EXCHANGE MR. NAVALNY.

THE PERSON WHO SPOKE TO ME HAD NOT FINISHED HIS SENTENCE YET WHEN I SAY I AGREE, BUT WHAT HAPPENED HAPPENED.

BUT THERE WAS ONLY ONE CONDITION, AND THAT'S NOT TO COME BACK.

>> Reporter: BACKLASH NOT JUST FROM THE U.S. AND ITS ALLIES.

UKRAIIAN VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY DESCRIBING THE ELECTION AS, QUOTE, A SHAM.

>> Translator: THESE DAYS, THE RUSSIAN DICTATOR IS SIMULATING ANOTHER ELECTION.

EVERYONE IN THE WORLD UNDERSTANDS THAT THIS FIGURE, AS HAS OFTEN HAPPENED IN HISTORY, HAS SIMPLY BECOME ADDICTED TO POWER, AND IS DOING EVERYTHING HE CAN TO RULE FOREVER.

THERE IS NO EVIL HE WILL NOT COMMIT TO PROLONG HIS PERSONAL POWER.

AND THERE IS NO ONE IN THE WORLD WHO IS SAFE FROM THIS.

>> Reporter: RUSSIA'S ALLY, CHINA, THOUGH, WAS QUICK TO CONGRATULATE PUTIN, SAYING IT FULLY REFLECTS THE SUPPORT OF THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.

WITH NO ONE STANDING IN HIS WAY, PUTIN IS NOW ON COURSE TO RULE FOR AS LONG AS SOVIET DICTATOR JOSEPH STALIN.

>> FRED PLEITGEN REPORTING THERE.

LET'S BRING IN RICHARD HAASS, THE LONGTIME PRESIDENT ON THE COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATIONS AND JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> NO MYSTERY IN THE RUSSIAN ELECTIONS, BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THOSE WHO ARE AGAINST HIM?

LET'S FACE IT, ON MATTERS OF GREAT GLOBAL SIGNIFICANCE, THE UNITED STATES, EUROPE, THE OTHERS WHO BELIEVE IN THE RIGHT OF THE INTERNATIONAL RULES OF THE ROAD, LET'S SAY?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN GOING FORWARD FOR ANOTHER SIX YEARS?

>> THERE'S NOTHING GOOD IN THIS.

THERE'S NO SILVER LINING FOR THE NEXT SIX YEARS YOU ASSUMING PUTIN LASTS FOR SIX YEARS, AND I THINK HE'LL LAST POLITICALLY.

THE ONLY THING AT THE MOMENT THAT LIMITS HIM POTENTIALLY WOULD BE MATTERS OF HEALTH.

BUT THIS MEANS HE PROSECUTES THE WAR, HE SEEMS TO HAVE RECOVERED ANY POLITICAL POSITION AT HOME, HE CONTROLS THE NARRATIVE, THE SANCTIONS AREN'T BITING.

SO, VLADIMIR PUTIN IS PROBABLY FEELING PRETTY GOOD.

HE'S GOT A LITTLE BIT OF WIND AT HIS BACK, EVEN ON THE BATTLEFIELD AGAINST UKRAINE.

HE SEES WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES, THE FALLING OFF OF SUPPORT.

I THINK HE'S VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT HAPPENS HERE IN NOVEMBER.

THE ONE THING, THOUGH, THAT I TAKE SOME POSITIVE FEELING FROM, CHRISTIANE, IS WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THAT STORY, SOME OF THE RESISTANCE.

CIVIL SOCIETY CONTINUES TO LIVE.

THERE'S A LOT OF COURAGEOUS PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL WILLING TO ACT.

WHAT THAT SUGGESTS TO ME, IT MAY NOT EFFECT PUTIN, IT MAY NOT EVEN INFLUENCE HIS SUCCESSOR, BUT SOMEWHERE DOWN THE ROAD, THE IDEA THAT RUSSIA IS PERMANENTLY THIS WAY, I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK THAT THIS SHOWS TO ME THE POTENTIAL FOR POLITICAL EVOLUTION IN RUSSIA.

AND THAT, TO ME, IS THE MESSAGE TO THE WEST, IS, DON'T GIVE UP ON RUSSIA, DON'T THINK OF IT AS PERMANENTLY PUTIN'S RUSSIA, BUT RATHER, THIS IS A LONG SWING OF THE CYCLE, AND AT SOME POINT, I THINK THE CHANCE OF REINTEGRATING RUSSIA SHOULD NOT BE DISMISSED.

>> I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT.

I THINK EVERYBODY, ESPECIALLY IN THE TWO YEARS SINCE THE WAR, THOUGHT THAT THERE WAS NO OPPOSITION, THAT THEY WERE EITHER AFRAID OR THEY HAD LEFT OR WHATEVER, BUT THIS REALLY DID SHOW, IF YOU LIKE, A PROTEST VOTE, SO, I THINK THAT IS A STORY PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT.

BUT YOU HEARD PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAY THIS IS ANOTHER SIMULATED ELECTION, IT'S -- HE'S IN POWER FOR LIFE, AND WE KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

SO, IF PUTIN HAS THE WIND AT HIS BACK, WHAT MUST THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES DO TO FULFILL THEIR PROMISE TO UKRAINE AND ITS SOVEREIGNTY?

>> WELL, IT COMES DOWN MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE TO THE UNITED STATES AND THE REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

I DON'T SEE THEM AT THE MOMENT A WAY THAT ALL $60 BILLION OF THE PROMISED MONEY FOR UKRAINE THAT'S IN THIS STALLED LEGISLATION GETS APPROVED, BUT I HAVEN'T GIVEN UP THAT A POSSIBILITY THAT A PIECE OF THAT, A LARGE PIECE OF THAT, COULD BE APPROVED, MAYBE AS SOME SORT OF A COMPROMISE.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE -- THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO HOPE FOR, THAT THE UNITED STATES OPENS UP ENOUGH SO THAT UKRAINE CAN HOLD ITS OWN, NOT RECOVER TERRITORY, BUT AVOID LOSING TERRITORY OVER THE NEXT SIX TO EIGHT MONTHS, AND THEN AFTER NOVEMBER, WE'LL SEE WHAT THE POLITICAL CONSTELLATION IS IN THE UNITED STATES, IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IN THE SENATE, IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, AND I CAN SEE OUTCOMES THAT ARE VERY GOOD FOR UKRAINE, A JOE BIDEN, A REPUBLICAN SENATE, A DEMOCRATIC HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, AND I CAN SEE OUTCOMES THAT ARE VERY BAD FOR UKRAINE.

SO, I THINK WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO SEE WHAT THE AMERICAN VOTERS, IRONICALLY ENOUGH, THESE VOTERS ARE NOT GOING TO BE VOTING ON THE BASIS OF UKRAINE, CHRISTIANE, BUT HOWEVER IT IS THEY VOTE, WHATEVER MOTIVATES THEM TO VOTE, THE BORDER OR OTHER ISSUES, THIS WILL HAVE ENORMOUS CONSEQUENCES FOR UKRAINE, FOR SECURITY AND STABILITY IN EUROPE, AND POTENTIALLY EVEN GLOBAL STABILITY, PEOPLE LIKE CHINA, IRAN, AND OTHERS, ARE GOING TO BE LOOKING ABOUT WHAT THIS SAYS ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

>> AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IF THERE WAS A TEMPTATION AMONG CERTAIN QUARTERS IN THE UNITED STATES POLITICAL SPHERE, TO JUST SAY, OKAY, WE'VE DONE IT FOR -- HAVE TO SUE FOR THE BEST PIECE IT CAN, WHAT WOULD THAT DO TO THE U.S. AND TO THE U.S.-LED ORDER?

>> WELL, IT WOULD RAISE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS ABOUT U.S.

RELIABILITY, PREDICTABILITY, STAYING POWER.

LOOK, THERE'S THIS RECESSSIVE GENE IN THE U.S.

BODY POLITIC CALLED ISOLATIONISM, AND THE IDEA IT MAY BE RESURFACING HAS TO BE DISQUIETED FOR ANY AMERICAN FRIEND.

AMERICA'S FRIENDS AND ALLIES PUT THEIR EGGS, WHATEVER METAPHOR, YOU WANT, IN OUR SECURITY BASKET.

AND IF WE SHOW THAT WE ARE NO LONGER RELIABLE, WE ARE NO LONGER SOMEONE THEY CAN SAFELY DEPEND ON, THEY'VE ONLY GOT THREE CHOICES.

THEY EITHER HAVE TO APPEASE OR ASAGE A POWERFUL NEIGHBOR, THEY CAN TRY TO BECOME MORE SELF-RELIANT, OR THEY CAN LOOK FOR NEW SECURITY PARTNERS, IF THEY CAN FIND THEM.

BUT NONE OF THESE IS A RECIPE FOR A MORE STABLE WORLD.

NONE OF THESE IS A RECIPE FOR A MORE DEMOCRATIC OR PEACEFUL WORLD, SO, AGAIN, I AM WORRIED ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT COULD BE EMANATING FROM THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO, HERE'S AN ADVERSARY CHALLENGING AMERICAN AND THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD ORDER.

HOW ABOUT AN ALLY CHALLENGING AMERICAN -- WHATEVER, INFLUENCE IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

AS YOU SEE WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU OF ISRAEL.

THINGS ARE REALLY BAD BETWEEN HIM AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, APPARENTLY THEY'RE BOTH TALKING TODAY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MANY, MANY WEEKS, AT A TIME OF REALLY HEIGHTENED FRUSTRATION IN THE UNITED STATES.

THIS IS ANOTHER HUGE AREA OF CONCERN FOR THE UNITED STATES, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD THOUGHT THAT THEY COULD PULL BACK FROM THE MIDDLE EAST BEFORE THE LATEST CRISIS.

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THE HOPE WAS THE UNITED STATES COULD SAFELY PULL BACK, FOCUS MAINLY ON CHINA, ON THE SO-CALLED INDO-PACIFIC REGION, AND THEN AFTER TWO YEARS AGO, AFTER THE SECOND RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE, THEN WE COULD ALSO FOCUS THERE, SO, THIS IS AN UNWELCOME RETURN TO THE -- TO THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT U.S. -- AMERICA'S REPUTATION IS TAKING A MAJOR HIT, BECAUSE OF WHAT IS GOING ON.

I ALSO WORRY HERE DOMESTICALLY THAT ISRAEL'S POLICY IN MANY WAYS IS ALIENATING A LARGE SWATH OF AMERICANS, PARTICULARLY YOUNG AMERICANS, AND I WORRY ABOUT THE LONG-TERM IMPLICATIONS OF THAT, BUT I THINK RIGHT NOW, FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THEY HAVE GOT TO MAKE SOME VERY TOUGH DECISIONS ABOUT WHETHER TO TAKE THE RHETORICAL AND POLICY DIFFERENCES WITH ISRAEL AND WHETHER TO GIVE THEM REAL SUBSTANCE.

WHETHER WE BEGIN TO HOLD BACK ON CERTAIN WEAPONS OR CONDITION THEIR AVAILABILITY ON HOW THEY'RE USED.

WHETHER THE UNITED STATES LAYS OUT A POLITICAL TRACK THAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE REFUSED TO LAY OUT.

WHETHER WE TAKE THOSE IDEAS AND CIRCULATE THEM AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL.

AND BASICALLY PRODUCE A NEW RESOLUTION THAT WOULD BUILD UPON RESOLUTION 242, WHICH CAME AFTER THE 1967 WAR.

WHETHER WE MAYBE CONVENE SOME TYPE OF A POLITICAL CONFERENCE LIKE THE UNITED STATES DID IN 1991, AFTER THE GULF WAR.

SO, I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION IS REACHING A POINT WHERE THE FACT THAT IT AND ISRAEL ARE NOT ON THE SAME PAGE, THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU CLEARLY DISAGREE.

IF WE LEAVE IT AT THAT OR BEGIN TO ADVANCE IT.

>> BECAUSE YOU SAID, IN YOUR RECENT ARTICLE, THAT CRISES CAN SOMETIMES BE SORT OF A MIDWIFE FOR WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, IN TERMS OF PROGRESS, AND IN THIS CASE, SOLIDIFYING THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION OPTION, WHICH THE U.S.

BACKS, OR DOUBLING DOWN ON THE -- ON THE CRISIS ITSELF.

AND IT LOOKS LIKE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS DEFINITELY DOUBLING DOWN.

HE'S JUST NOT LISTENING, IT SEEMS, TO THE WORRIES OF THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION.

LET'S JUST SAY ABOUT RAFAH, AND NOT INCURRING INTO RAFAH, IT'S NOT HAPPENED, BUT THEY APPEAR TO BE SAYING THAT IT WILL.

ALSO, 31,000 PEOPLE PLUS DEAD, CIVILIANS AND -- MOSTLY CIVILIANS, ACCORDING TO THE FIGURES.

STARVATION, AS I QUOTED, THE UNITED NATIONS, THE BRINK OF FAMINE.

WHAT SHOULD -- I MEAN, YOU'VE WRITTEN THAT, YES, THEY HAD THE OBVIOUS RIGHT TO AVENGE AND DEFEND THEMSELVES FOR WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, BUT THE TACTICS HAVE BEEN CATASTROPHIC FOR EVERYBODY.

>> THEY CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, I WOULD ARGUE, FOR ISRAEL.

HAMAS, IF ANYTHING, IS NOW EVEN MORE FRONT AND CENTER IN THE PALESTINIAN WORLD.

THE ARAB WORLD IS MORE ALIENATED FROM ISRAEL THAN IT WAS SIX MONTHS AGO.

AMERICAN SUPPORT IS MUCH MORE CONTROVERSIAL HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO, IT'S HARD FOR ME TO SEE HOW ISRAEL IS BETTER OFF.

ITS ECONOMY HAS BEEN DOWNGRADED BY MOODY'S.

IT'S A LONG LIST OF WAYS IN WHICH I THINK THE ISRAELI RESPONSE, HOWEVER UNDERSTANDABLE MAY BE, HAS BEEN COUNTERPRODUCTIVE FROM ISRAEL'S POINT OF VIEW.

AND AGAIN, THE REAL QUESTION IS WHETHER THE UNITED STATES CAN TRIGGER IN SOME WAYS A POLITICAL DEBATE IN ISRAEL THAT WOULD BEGIN TO -- TO MOVE THAT, AND WE'VE GOT -- WE'VE GOT TOOLS WE CAN USE TO INFLUENCE THEM.

BUT RIGHT NOW, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, I THINK PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS -- BASICALLY SAID, OR DECIDED, HE CAN ACT WITH A DEGREE OF IMPUNITY.

THAT HE CAN REPRESENT HIMSELF TO THE ISRAELI PEOPLE AS THE ONLY PERSON WHO STANDS BETWEEN THEM AND AMERICAN PRESSURE.

THEY MAY NOT LIKE HIM, I CAN IMAGINE HIM SAYING, BUT YOU NEED SOMEBODY LIKE ME RIGHT NOW.

AND HE MAY THINK THAT WITH REPUBLICAN SUPPORT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES HE CAN WEATHER THE POLITICAL STORM.

AND AGAIN, IT'S -- I THINK PRIME MINISTER -- PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS TO DECIDE WHAT HE'S PREPARED TO DO AT THIS POINT.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS HE PREPARED TO CONFRONT THIS HEAD-ON?

>> DO YOU THINK, LIKE OTHERS ARE SUGGESTING, INCLUDING INSIDE THE UNITED STATES, THAT HE SHOULD BE TOUGH ON CONDITIONS FOR SUPPLYING WEAPONS TO ISRAEL?

UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> IN A WORD, YES.

WE SHOULD -- WE SHOULD MAKE IT CLEAR THAT U.S.-PROVIDED ORDNANCE, THESE LARGE BOMBS, SHOULD NOT BE DROPPED IN ANY SITUATION THAT WOULD CAUSE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

ISRAEL HAS EVERY RIGHT TO GO AFTER HAMAS, BUT THEY SHOULD DO IT WITH SMALL UNIT MILITARY TACTICS.

NOT WITH THESE LARGE BOMBS THAT INEVITABLY CAUSE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

WHAT'S SOMETIMES CALLED COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

SO, YES, WE OUGHT TO PUT CONSTRAINTS ON U.S. WEAPONRY, JUST LIKE IN THE PAST, WE'VE PUT CONSTRAINTS, SAY, ON DIPLOMATIC SUPPORT OR ECONOMIC SUPPORT.

I WORKED FOR PRESIDENT BUSH THE FATHER AND WE WERE NOT GOING TO ALLOW U.S. LOAN GUARANTEES TO USE TO SUBSIDIZE PEOPLE MOVING INTO THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

THE UNITED STATES HAS INSTRUMENTS IT SHOULD USE, AND NOT TO USE THEM IS EVERY BIT AS MUCH OF A POLICY DECISION.

>> AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S NOT HAPPENING?

IN OTHER WORDS, COULD PRESIDENT BIDEN MAYBE SAY THAT IN HIS CONVERSATION TODAY?

SHOULD PRESIDENT BIDEN ADDRESS THE ISRAELI PEOPLE, WHO SEEM TO BE VERY FOND OF HIM, BECAUSE OF HIS, YOU KNOW, EMBRACE, OBVIOUSLY, THAT HE GAVE THE ISRAELI PEOPLE AFTER OCTOBER 7th?

>> I THINK HE SHOULD.

I THINK HE SHOULD DO IT MORE IN SORROW THAN IN ANGER.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS STRONG LEGITIMACY.

HE'S MUCH MORE POPULAR IN ISRAEL THAN IS PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

SO, IT'S MORE IN SORROW THAN IN ANGER.

HE CAN SHOW SYMPATHY AND EMPATHY FOR ISRAEL, BUT HE CAN PIVOT, AND SAY, WHAT YOU'RE DOING, I DO NOT BELIEVE IS IN YOUR OWN LONG-TERM INTEREST.

HERE ARE ALTERNATIVE POLICIES THAT I BELIEVE WOULD BE BETTER FOR YOU AND WOULD ENJOY MUCH GREATER SUPPORT IN THE UNITED STATES, IN THE ARAB WORLD, AND THE WORLD AT LARGE, AND IT WOULD BE IN ISRAEL'S LONG-TERM INTEREST TO FOLLOW THAT.

AND WE'LL HAVE YOUR BACK.

EVERY INCH OF THE WAY, IF YOU INTRODUCE A CREDIBLE POLITICAL TRACK FOR PALESTINIANS.

IF YOU OPEN UP MORE LAND RUPTS FOR AID, AND SO FORTH.

I THINK WE CAN INCENTIVIZE ISRAEL TO DO WHAT WE SEE IS THE RIGHT THING, AS WELL AS INTRODUCE SANCTIONS OR DISINCENTIVES IF THEY CONTINUE TO DO THINGS WE BELIEVE ARE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

>> AND, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW THIS, MOST PEOPLE HAVE SEEN IT, BUT IT'S WORTH PLAYING AGAIN, BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT THE ACTUAL INTERVENTION BY A SENIOR AMERICAN POLITICIAN INTO ISRAELI DOMESTIC POLITICS, FRANKLY.

THIS IS THE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER CHUCK SCHUMER RECENTLY.

>> NETANYAHU COALITION NO LONGER FITS THE NEEDS OF ISRAEL AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

I BELIEVE THAT HOLDING A NEW ELECTION, ONCE THE WAR STARTS TO WIND DOWN, WOULD GIVE ISRAELIS AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPRESS THEIR VISION FOR THE POST-WAR FUTURE.

>> SO, THERE'S SO MUCH, YOU MENTIONED THE FIRST PRESIDENT BUSH, I DON'T THINK ANY AMERICAN LEADER OF ANY STRIPE HAS BEEN SO ON-POINT IN THAT WAY SINCE GEORGE BUSH AND JAMES BAKER.

AND PRESIDENT BIDEN CALLED IT A GOOD SPEECH, THE OPPOSITION LEADER IN ISRAEL SAID NETANYAHU IS LOSING SUPPORT IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO, WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT SHAME ER SCHUMER WENT THERE?

AND WHAT IS YOUR REACTION?

NETANYAHU THIS WEEKEND SAID IT WAS INAPPROPRIATE, NO SYSTEM OF DEMOCRACY SHOULD INTERFERE, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

>> FIRST, I WAS SURPRISED THAT SOMEONE LIKE SENATOR SCHUMER, WHO IS A STALWART, STAUNCH SUPPORTER OF ISRAEL FOR DECADES, WOULD DO THIS.

I THINK THE OPPOSITION IS RIGHT.

THIS IS A REAL SIGNAL TO ISRAEL THAT IT IGNORES AT ITS PERIL.

IF YOU LOSE THE CHUCK SCHUMERS OF THE UNITED STATES, THEN ISRAEL HAS REAL PROBLEMS HERE.

THIS IS NOT A BUNCH OF YOUNG KIDS WHO AREN'T SCHOOLED IN THE HISTORY.

THIS IS SOMEONE WHO STOOD BY ISRAEL FOR DECADES, SO, I YOU THIS IT'S A REAL SIGNAL.

THAT SAID, I THINK THE SENATOR WENT TOO FAR.

I DON'T THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA TO GET TO -- SO IMMERSE YOURSELF IN ANOTHER COUNTRY'S POLITICS, CALLING FOR POLITICAL CHANGE OR ELECTIONS.

WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS FRAME THIS ABOUT POLICY.

FRAME THIS ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS.

AND THEN LET ISRAELIS CONNECT THE DOTS.

LET THEM DECIDE THEY NEED NEW ELECTIONS.

LET THEM DECIDE THEY NEED NEW LEADERSHIP.

I DON'T THINK AMERICANS SHOULD -- SHOULD GET INVOLVED IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT CONVERSATION, BECAUSE IT ALLOWS BIBI NETANYAHU THE OPPORTUNITY TO PUSH BACK AGAINST AMERICAN POLITICAL INTERFERENCE.

I DON'T WANT TO GIVE HIM THAT ARGUMENT.

>> WELL, HE'S DONE IT BEFORE, HASN'T HE?

SOME MIGHT SAY IT'S A TASTE OF HIS OWN MEDICINE.

HE CAME TO THE CONGRESS, INVITED BY ONE PARTY, TO SPEAK AGAINST THE PRESIDENT OF ANOTHER PARTY, OBAMA.

I MEAN, THAT WAS UNPRECEDENTED.

>> 100%.

AND THAT'S WHY I HAVE BEEN ADVOCATING FOR SEVERAL MONTHS NOW THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN TAKE A PAGE OUT OF HIS BOOK AND GO TO THE FLOOR OF THE KNESSET AND TALK OVER HIS HEAD TO THE ISRAELI PEOPLE.

I HAVE NO IDEA IF THE PRESIDENT WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE ISRAELI PEOPLE.

WE CANNOT ALLOW BIBI NETANYAHU TO BE THE SOLE VOICE.

TO BE THE FILTER THROUGH WHICH THIS RELATIONSHIP RUNS.

MY ONLY QUESTION ABOUT WHAT SENATOR SCHUMER DID WAS JUST TACTICALLY.

I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD MAKE IT AD HOME ANYMORE.

WE SHOULD MAKE IT ABOUT WHAT IT'S NOT DOING DIPLOMATICALLY, WHY WE DO NOT THINK THAT IS IN THE INTEREST OF ISRAEL.

THAT'S THE ARGUMENT AMERICANS OUGHT TO BE MAKING.

THAT, TO ME, CHRISTIANE, IS THE REAL PRO-ISRAEL ARGUMENT TO MAKE, TO BASICALLY SAY, WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING IN MANY WAYS, IS NOT SERVING ITS OWN INTERESTS, IT'S CERTAINLY NOT SERVING OURS.

>> RICHARD HAASS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>>> AND NEXT, DONALD TRUMP.

HE CONTINUES FLINGING AROUND HEATED WORDS AND VILE DESCRIPTIONS IN HIS CAMPAIGN FOR PRESIDENT.

FOR INSTANCE, SAYING SOME MIGRANTS ARE NOT PEOPLE, AND LATER CALLING THEM ANIMALS.

THAT WAS AT A RALLY IN OHIO OVER THE WEEKEND WHERE HE AGAIN THANKED THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTIONISTS WHILE SALUTING THEIR JAILHOUSE RENDITION OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM.

TRUMP IS ALSO SEEKING TO DELAY HIS OWN JUDICIAL RECKONING, WHICH NOW APPEARS TO BE PAYING OFF.

IT'S UNCLEAR EXACTLY WHEN ANY OF THE MAJOR TRIALS AGAINST HIM WILL EVEN START, BUT HE IS SPENDING A HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME IN COURT AMID SOME SETBACKS.

HIS LAWYERS, FOR INSTANCE, CLAIM THAT HE IS RIGHT NOW UNABLE TO RAISE 4 THE MONEY AGAINST HIM IN NEW YORK.

MY NEXT GUEST IS ANDREW WEISSMANN, LAW PROFESSOR AT NEW YORK UNIVERSITY AND THE FORMER LEAD PROSECUTOR IN ROBERT MUELLER'S INVESTIGATION OF TRUMP.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> NICE TO BE HERE.

>> SO, ARE YOU SURPRISED, OR DO YOU KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT TRUMP AND HIS TACTICS TO SEE THESE VERY MAJOR CASES, WHICH, EVERYBODY EXPECTED TO COME, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST TO START RIGHT NOW, ACTUALLY IN PERIL?

>> I AM SOMEWHAT SURPRISED.

I'M NOT SURPRISED BY A DEFENDANT IN A CRIMINAL CASE SEEKING TO AVOID HIS DAY IN COURT.

THAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

TO HAVE A TRIAL, SO, THERE, DONALD TRUMP'S DOING SOMETHING THAT IS QUITE TYPICAL OF DEFENDANTS, ALTHOUGH, TO BE FAIR, IT IS VERY ATYPICAL TO HAVE SOMEBODY FACING THIS MANY CRIMINAL CASES.

I THINK WHAT IS SURPRISING TO ME IS THAT THE FINAL SORT OF CHECK AND BALANCE IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS THE JUDICIARY, BECAUSE WE HAVE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, WE HAVE CONGRESS YOU WE HAVE THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, AND WE HAVE THE COURTS, IS THAT THE COURTS -- I THINK HERE TO FOR HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB, BUT WE'RE SEEING THE EROSION OF THE COURT SYSTEM UNDER CONSTANT ATTACK, AND SO, THE TWO MAIN FEDERAL CASES, THE ONE IN FLORIDA FOR THE RETENTION OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, AND THE BIGGEST ONE, THE JANUARY 6th SO-CALLED INSURRECTION CASE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., THOSE CASES ARE VERY MUCH ON HOLD, AND THAT IS BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS OF THE EITHER SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES THAT HAS STAYED THE D.C. CASE, OR THE JUDGE IN FLORIDA, WHO SEEMS TO BE IN NO HURRY AT ALL TO HAVE A CASE GO TO TRIAL.

AND SO, THAT, I THINK, IS A REAL ISSUE, IN TERMS OF HOW THE UNITED STATES DEALS WITH THIS PROBLEM THAT OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE FACED, WHICH IS, HOW DO YOU HOLD POLITICAL LEADERS AND FORMER POLITICAL LEADERS TO ACCOUNT WHEN THEY HAVE ENGAGED IN ALLEGED CRIMINAL CONDUCT?

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU MENTIONED THE JUDGE IN FLORIDA, WHO APPEARS TO BE JUST, YOU KNOW, THROUGH READING ABOUT HE -- WHAT'S THE RIGHT WORD, SYMPATHETICALLY DISPOSED TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

SO, DO YOU THINK THE SUPREME COURT AND IN THIS CASE THE JUDGE IN FLORIDA IS THROWING OUT LIFELINES TO HIM ON ISSUES THAT GO BEYOND THE LETTER OF THE LAW?

>> WELL, THERE IS A TRACK RECORD, SO, I THINK YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE TO WITH RESPECT TO THE FLORIDA JUDGE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE IT FROM A LAW PROFESSOR.

IF YOU RECALL IN THIS -- THE PREINDICTMENT PHASE, SHE OVERSAW THE SEARCH WARRANT AND LITIGATION AROUND THE SEARCH WARRANT OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S HOME AND BEACH CLUB RESORT IN MAR-A-LAGO, AND NOT ONCE, BUT TWICE, SHE WAS REVERSED BY THE APPELLATE COURT IN VERY SCATHING LANGUAGE, AND I THINK PROBABLY THE MOST NOTABLE FOR YOUR VIEWERS IS THE APPELLATE COURT SAYING THAT DONALD TRUMP, BECAUSE SHE A FORM FORMER PRESIDENT, IS NOT ENTITLED TO EXTRA SYMPATHY TO EXTRA BENEFITS, HE SHOULD BE TREATED NO BETTER AND NO WORSE THAN ANYONE ELSE.

AND THE COURTS THAT REVERSED THE FLORIDA JUDGE ARE VERY CONSERVATIVE APPELLATE JUDGES.

AND THAT'S A GOOD SIGN THAT, YOU KNOW, REGARDLESS OF SORT OF WHO APPOINTED THEM, THOSE JUDGES WERE WILLING TO FOLLOW THE LAW, BUT IT'S A BAD SIGN IN THE SENSE OF THE DISTRICT JUDGE REALLY DOES HAVE THIS TRACK RECORD OF REALLY VIEWING THE LAW THROUGH A PARTISAN LENS, AND I'M REALLY SORRY TO HAVE TO SAY THAT.

>> YEAH, WELL, IT'S WORRYING, BECAUSE NOBODY SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW, OBVIOUSLY, BUT LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT JANUARY 6th.

I INTRODUCED YOU BY SPEAKING ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO CONSTANTLY ATTENDS EVERY SINGLE CAMPAIGN APPEARANCE AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL, TO THE TUNES OF AN INSURRECTIONIST PRISON SONG WHO HAVE SUNG THE NATIONAL ANTHEM.

THAT HE DOES.

AND HE ABSOLUTES.

AND HE PRAISES THEM.

AND WHAT WE HAVE IS "THE NEW YORK TIMES" -- SORRY, THE SUPREME COURT, WHO WON'T HEAR THE ARGUMENTS UNTIL LATE APRIL, MEANING THEY MAY NOT EVEN GET A RULING UNTIL JUNE.

THIS IS "THE NEW YORK TIMES," WITH EACH DELAY, THE ODDS INCREASE THAT VOTERS WILL NOT GET A CHANCE TO HEAR THE EVIDENCE THAT MR. TRUMP SOUGHT TO SUBVERT THE LAST ELECTION BEFORE THEY DECIDE WHETHER TO BACK HIM IN THE CURRENT ONE.

SO, THAT'S THEIR VIEW.

WHAT, AS A LAWYER AND A PROSECUTOR, DO YOU THINK VOTERS MISS OUT ON, PEOPLE MISS OUT ON, IF THIS IS DELAYED AND DELAYED AND DELAYED BEFORE THE ELECTION?

>> WELL, THIS, I THINK, CHRISTIANE, RELATES VERY MUCH TO THE CONVERSATION THAT YOU WERE JUST HAVING WITH MR. HAASS ABOUT THE SO-CALLED ELECTION IN RUSSIA.

AND I'M NOT TRYING TO EQUATE THE TWO, BUT THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PURPOSE OF A CRIMINAL CASE IS THAT IT AFFORDS THE DEFENDANT, BUT ALSO EVERYONE WHO IS SEEING THAT PUBLIC TRIAL, A FORUM WHERE FACTS AND LAW MATTER, AND, BY THE WAY, THE OUTCOME COULD BE THAT HE IS ACQUITTED, THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT PROVE THE CASE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, BUT THE OUTCOME COULD ALSO BE THAT THE FACTS AND LAW ARE QUITE DISADVANTAGEOUS TO DONALD TRUMP IN TERMS OF HIS ELECTION, BECAUSE IT WILL SHOW WHAT HE DID ON JANUARY 6th AND LEADING UP TO JANUARY 6th.

SO, I THINK THE FACT THAT WE ARE LEFT WITHOUT THAT FORUM THAT -- WHICH IS HOW THINGS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DECIDED WHEN THERE'S A DISPUTE IN THIS COUNTRY, WITH ALL OF THE PROTECTIONS AFFORDED TO A DEFENDANT, THAT THE CASE HAS TO BE PROVED BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, THE HIGHEST STANDARD THAT WE HAVE IN THE LAW, AND IT HAS TO BE FOUND BY A JURY OF 12 PEOPLE UNANIMOUSLY, IS -- IT'S NOT JUST A SHAME, BUT IT MEANS THAT WHAT THE ELECTORATE IS LEFT WITH IS UNTESTED ADJECTIVES AND ADVERBS AND A SORT OF COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, BUT IT'S NOT ACTUALLY SUBJECT TO THE RULES OF EVIDENCE COURT OF LAW.

>> SO, WE'VE DISCUSSED TWO VERY IMPORTANT SERIOUS CASES, ONE IS THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS CASE, THE OTHER IS THE INSURRECTION CASE.

AND THEN, THE GEORGIA CASE, ESSENTIALLY TRYING TO GET GEORGIAN OFFICIALS.

WE KNOW IT'S BEEN COMPROMISED OF ALLEGATIONS OF IMPROPER BEHAVIOR BETWEEN THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND THE LEAD PROSECUTOR.

NOW, THE RULING IS, THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY CAN STAY ON, BUT THE PROSECUTOR HAS TO RESIGN.

COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED DIFFERENTLY?

SHOULD THERE HAVE BEEN ACTION BY THE D.A.

OR WHATEVER BEFORE?

DO YOU THINK THAT NO MATTER WHAT, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY, OH, WELL, YOU KNOW, THIS IS -- THIS DISTRICT ATTORNEY?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE'S -- THERE'S NO ONE WHO THINKS THAT THIS SHOWED GOOD JUDGMENT, IN THAT IT LEADS TO PRECISELY THE CONVERSATION THAT WE'RE HAVING NOW, AND PEOPLE WHO WILL USE THE POOR JUDGMENT TO TRY TO DELEGITIMIZE THE CRIMINAL CASE.

BUT I WOULD POINT OUT THAT THE JUDGE WHO OVERSAW THE CONFLICT MATTER, WITH RESPECT TO THE D.A., WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO MAKE IT ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT WHATEVER THE ISSUES ARE WITH RESPECT TO THE D.A.

AND THE LEAD PROSECUTOR, THERE IS NONE, ZERO, PREJUDICE TO THE DEFENDANTS.

IN OTHER WORDS, IT REALLY IS TWO SEPARATE THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON.

AND YOU MIGHT SAY, YOU KNOW, SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD A RELATIONSHIP, AND IT LEADS TO THESE CONVERSATIONS, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EVIDENCE AND WHAT HAPPENED.

SO, IT IS, TO SAY THE LEAST, UNFORTUNATE, BECAUSE THE GEORGIA CASE IS A STATE VERSION OF THE WASHINGTON, D.C. FEDERAL CASE THAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT, IT JUST SORT OF FOCUSES MORE NARROWLY ON EXACTLY WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN GEORGIA, AND SO, OF COURSE, IT'S ALSO EXTREMELY IMPORTANT ALLEGATIONS THAT ALSO SHOULD SEE A COURTROOM AND SHOULD BE TESTED IN A COURTROOM BY A, YOU KNOW, THE PROSECUTION, AND THE DEFENSE WILL BE ENTITLED TO CHALLENGE THAT.

BUT IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT THIS IS -- THIS HAS DELAYED THAT CASE, AS WELL.

>> AND, OF COURSE, THAT CASE WAS ALL ABOUT ACTUAL ELECTION INTERFERENCE, THERE'S THE FAMOUS TAPE OF -- OF THEN-PRESIDENT TRUMP TRYING TO GET THE OFFICIAL TO GIVE HIM JUST, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS, 11,000 MORE VOTES.

I MEAN, THAT IS AN ACTUAL PIECE OF TAPE THAT WENT WITH IT, AND I THINK IT WAS REALLY AN INTERESTING CASE TO HAVE SEEN TAKEN TO COURT.

ANYWAY, THAT'S DELAYED, TOO.

NOW, YOU HAVE WRITTEN -- YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE IDEA OF TRUMP, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO DELEGITIMIZE THE DOJ, USING THINGS HE SAID ABOUT WHAT HE MIGHT DO IN A SECOND TERM IF HE GOT IT.

"WASHINGTON POST" SAYS IN PRIVATE, TRUMP HAS TOLD ADVISERS AND FRIENDS IN RECENT MONTHS THAT HE WANTS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO INVESTIGATE ONE-TIME OFFICIALS AND ALLIES WHO HAVE BECOME CRITICAL OF HIS TIME IN OFFICE.

KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW, FROM THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE INVOLVED IN THE PROSECUTION, WHAT COULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

DO YOU THINK THAT'S JUST ASPIRATIONAL?

OR DO YOU THINK THAT'S A PLAN THAT COULD BE EXECUTED?

>> WELL, I THINK IT IS A PLAN THAT COULD BE EXECUTED, AND I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE TO, AGAIN, LOOK VERY FAR, BECAUSE, OF COURSE, DONALD TRUMP WAS THE PRESIDENT, AND UNDER HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR, THAT KIND OF REGIME EXISTED, IN OTHER WORDS, NORMALLY, THERE IS A REAL WALL BETWEEN THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

AND THE DECISIONS ABOUT WHO TO PROSECUTE AND WHO NOT TO PROSECUTE IS LEFT TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, THE HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, BUT IS NOT A POLITICAL MATTER THAT GOES TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

THAT OBVIOUSLY IS CRITICAL TO BEING A NATION OF LAWS, AND NOT OF MEN AND WOMEN.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT, WHEN YOU SEE IT OVERSEAS AND YOU TRY AND FIGURE OUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, AND YOU COMPARE IT TO COUNTRIES THAT HAVE STOOD UP TO -- AND HELD THE RULE OF LAW, SUCH AS ENGLAND OR ARGENTINA, AND HELD PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT, THAT IS A CRITICAL DIFFERENCE.

SO, I THINK THAT WHEN DONALD TRUMP SAYS THAT THAT IS WHAT HE WOULD DO, HE'S REALLY TALKING ABOUT REINSTATING SOMETHING THAT HE HAS DONE.

OBVIOUSLY, WE STILL HAVE THE COURT SYSTEM, WE STILL HAVE A JURY SYSTEM, WE STILL HAVE, SO FAR, WE HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTIONS SO THAT EVEN IF A PRESIDENT WERE TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD, THERE WOULD BE ADDITIONAL HURDLES THAT WOULD NOT BE SOLELY WITHIN THE PROVINCE OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> HOW DO YOU MAKE THE CASE, ESPECIALLY TO SUPPORTERS, THAT ACTUALLY THESE KINDS OF INDICTMENTS ARE NOT POLITICAL, THEY HAPPEN ALL OVER THE WORLD.

TRUMP HAS BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL WITH HIS OWN SUPPORTERS AS PORTRAYING HIMSELF AS AN UNPRECEDENTED VICTIM, POLITICAL WITCH HUNT, AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

BUT HERE IS JUST A LIST OF RECENT INDICTMENTS AROUND THE WORLD.

IT'S JUST NOT RARE, IN FRANCE, PRESIDENT SARKOZY, IN ISRAEL, LIKELY PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ACCORDING TO WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE, IN ARGENTINA, THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

HOW DO YOU MAKE THE CASE TO NOT JUST HIS SUPPORTERS, BUT TO THE AMERICANS AT LARGE, THAT THIS IS -- THIS IS NORMAL PRACTICE, IF THERE IS A CASE TO BE ALLEGED?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE TAKE A LOT OF TIME IN OUR INTRODUCTION, TALKING ABOUT HOW TO SEE THESE FOUR INDICTMENTS, BOTH GLOBALLY AND ALSO IN TERMS OF THE HISTORY OF SIMILAR CHARGES BEING BROUGHT AGAINST PEOPLE WHO ARE FAR LESS CULPABLE.

SO, GLOBALLY, YOU ARE COMPLETELY RIGHT.

THERE'S AN ENDLESS LIST OF COUNTRIES THAT HAVE DONE THIS AND BROUGHT RIGHTEOUS CASES AGAINST POLITICAL LEADERS.

INDEED, TO NOT DO IT, WE ARGUE, IS A FORM OF BECOMING A SO-CALLED BANANA REPUBLIC, WHERE YOU BECOME, YOU KNOW, A RUSSIA, OR UKRAINE UNDER PRESIDENT YAN COE VICH.

AND SO, THERE IS A WAY TO DO THIS, WHERE YOU UPHOLD THE RULE OF LAW.

THERE ALSO IS A WAY TO LOOK AT PRIOR CASES IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, PRIOR FEDERAL CASES, AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT?

OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ALLEGED TO HAVE DONE FAR LESS HAVE BEEN PROSECUTED, SO THIS IS NOT UNUSUAL.

FINALLY, WHAT I WOULD SAY TO PEOPLE, THE PROSECUTORS HERE, WHETHER FEDERAL OR STATE, ARE SEEKING TO HAVE THEIR DAY IN COURT.

THAT MEANS THAT THEY ARE SIMULTANEOUSLY SAYING THAT THEY ARE, OF COURSE, GOING TO GIVE DONALD TRUMP HIS DAY IN COURT.

IN OTHER WORDS, NO ONE IS TRYING TO DENY HIS ABILITY TO DEFEND HIMSELF, BUT IN A COURT OF LAW.

SO, IF YOU THINK THESE ARE TRUMPED UP CHARGES, NO PUN INTENDED, THERE IS A FORUM FOR THAT TO BE TESTED.

AND MANY, MANY DEFENDANTS GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS, SOME ARE ACQUITTED, SOME ARE CONVICTED, AND THAT IS WHAT IS BEING DONE HERE.

TO SAY THAT THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY TRIAL TAKES INTO A WORLD OF AUTOCRACY AND AWAY FROM A DEMOCRATIC RULE OF LAW NATION.

>> ANDREW WEISSMANN, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

>>> NOW, THIS TIME FOUR YEARS AGO, SCHOOLS WERE ONLY BEGINNING TO SHUT DOWN AS COVID CHANGED LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, ERIC KLINENBERG EXAMINES 2020 AND HE'S JOINING HARI TO TALK ABOUT THE YEAR AND WHY WE MUSTN'T FORGET ITS IMPACT.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

ERIC, YOUR BOOK, "2020: ONE CITY, SEVEN PEOPLE, AND THE YEAR THAT EVERYTHING CHANGED," THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF DIFFERENT BOOKS LOOKING AT COVID FROM THIS LARGE SCALE POLICY PERSPECTIVE.

YOU CHOSE TO PERSONALIZE IT IN THE LIVES OF THESE SEVEN DIFFERENT PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN NEW YORK.

FIRST, I GUESS, WHAT DO THESE PEOPLE HAVE IN COMMON?

>> WELL, WHAT THEY SHARED IS THIS EXPERIENCE OF HAVING REALLY GONE THROUGH ONE OF THE MOST CHALLENGING TIMES OF THEIR LIVES.

THEY COME FROM DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE.

THERE'S A PERSON FROM EVERY BOROUGH IN NEW YORK CITY WHOSE STORY I TELL, AND THE STORY OF AN MTA WORKER, AND AN ACTIVIST THAT GOT INVOLVED IN THE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS.

AND, I GUESS THE THROUGH LINE IS, EACH OF THEM FELT THE SENSE OF BEING ON THEIR OWN WITH TOO MANY PROBLEMS TO SOLVE, AND NOT ENOUGH HELP FROM THE CORE INSTITUTIONS THAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR.

AND THEY RECOGNIZED THAT THERE WAS SOME GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE AVAILABLE, A LOT OF THEM USED IT, BUT THEY FELT OVERWHELMED AND THEY FELT LIKE THEY HAD TO SOLVE THEIR OWN PROBLEMS.

AND I ACTUALLY THINK NOW WE ARE STILL SUFFERING FROM THIS KIND OF LONG COVID AS A SOCIAL DISEASE, WHERE PEOPLE FEEL LIKE SOMETHING'S OFF, AND THEY'RE DISAPPOINTED ABOUT THE WAY IN WHICH THEY'RE BEING TREATED BY THE INSTITUTIONS THAT MATTER, WHETHER THAT'S THE GOVERNMENT OR THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE CHARACTERS YOU JUST BROUGHT UP.

THE BARKEEPER IN STATEN ISLAND.

IN THE BEGINNING OF YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM, YOU KNOW, HE SAYS, I'M NOT REALLY A POLITICAL GUY.

AND BY THE END OF THIS ARC, YOU'RE NOT EVEN ABLE TO GET IN TOUCH WITH HIM.

>> NO.

I CAME TO LIKE HIM QUITE A LOT IN OUR CONVERSATIONS.

HE STARTED A BAR WITH HIS BUDDY BECAUSE THEY JUST WANTED A PLACE IN THE COMMUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO HANG OUT.

HE WAS ADAMANT THAT HE'S NOT A POLITICAL GUY.

AND I REALLY BELIEVED HIM AT THE TIME.

HE -- HE KNEW THAT PEOPLE LIKED TO SOCIALIZE.

AND YOU REMEMBER, IN 2020, WE WERE TOLD, WE NEEDED TO SOCIALLY DISTANCE, AND THAT WAS VERY HARD FOR A LOT OF US, IN FACT, YOU KNOW, I GOT INTO THIS PROJECT BY WRITING AN ESSAY IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" SAYING, WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS KIND OF PHYSICAL DISTANCE AND SOCIAL SOLIDARITY, RIGHT?

NOT SOCIAL DISTANCE, IT'S HARD.

AND HIS BUSINESS WAS ORGANIZED ON BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

IT TOOK NINE MONTHS TO GET A LIQUOR LICENSE IN 2019.

WHEN THEY FINALLY OPENED, COVID HIT, THEY WERE CLOSED.

HE WAS SO FRUSTRATED WITH THE SITUATION THAT HE DECIDED TO DECLARE THAT HIS BAR WAS AN AUTONOMOUS ZONE.

HE'D BEEN LISTENING TO A LOT OF RIGHT WING CABLE TV PERSONALITIES.

HE WAS PERSUADED THAT THE LOCKDOWNS WERE EXCESSIVE, HE WANTED FREEDOM, HE WANTED SMALL BUSINESSES TO DO WHAT THEY WANTED TO DO, AND HE JUST ANNOUNCED HE WAS NOT GOING TO FOLLOW THE LAW ANYMORE.

THEY MADE POSTER BOARDS, THEY TAPED OFF THE SIDEWALK.

AND THE SHERIFFS CAME PRETTY QUICKLY AND ARRESTED HIM AND THE OTHER THING THAT HAPPENED IS, HUNDREDS, MAYBE MORE THAN 1,000 FAR-RIGHT AGITATORS CAME TO STATEN ISLAND, AND THEY PROTESTED, INCLUDING THE PROUD BOYS.

AND BY THE END OF THE YEAR, HE WENT FROM BEING, YOU KNOW, PRETTY NEUTRAL NONPOLITICAL GUY TO A GUY WHO IS POSTING ON THE INTERNET THAT HE'S A FREEDOM FIGHTER, HE IS GOING TO ANTI-VACCINE RALLIES, HE IS PROTESTING MASK MANDATES, HE'S QUESTIONING EVERYTHING ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT, AND I THINK HIS STORY IS IMPORTANT, BECAUSE FOR MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, 2020 WAS A YEAR IN WHICH THEY GOT RADICALIZED.

>> YOU KNOW, ON THE OTHER END OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, YOU ALSO SORT OUT A CHARACTER.

WHAT DID THEY HAVE IN COMMON WITH THE GENTLEMAN IN STATEN ISLAND, AND WHAT DID SHE END UP DOING?

>> WELL, THE STORY WAS, HER COMMUNITY WASN'T BEING TAKEN CARE OF, SHE LIVES IN JACKSON HEIGHTS, QUEENS, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE NEIGHBORHOODS ON EARTH.

SOMETHING LIKE 160 LANGUAGES SPOKEN IN JACKSON HEIGHTS.

A LOT OF IMMIGRANTS, CROWDED CONDITIONS, DENSITY, PEOPLE LIVE AND WORK IN THE CASH ECONOMY, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW THAT THEY WERE ELIGIBLE FOR BENEFITS OR WEREN'T ELIGIBLE FOR STATE BENEFITS.

SHE KNEW VERY EARLY IN THE PANDEMIC THAT PEOPLE WERE GOING TO BE IN TROUBLE.

AND SHE PUT UP A SIGN SAYING, YOU KNOW, IF YOU NEED HELP, CALL ME, AND SHE -- AND SHE USED HER REAL PHONE NUMBER.

WITHIN A COUPLE DAYS, HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WERE CALLING HER.

SHE WAS OVERWHELMED.

SO, SHE PUT UP ANOTHER SIGN THAT SAID, IF YOU CAN GIVE HELP, CALL ME.

AND THEN DOZENS AND EVENTUALLY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE DID.

SO, SHE SET UP IN HER BASEMENT OF HER PERSONAL HOME, WHICH SHE CALLED THE COVID CARE NEIGHBORHOOD NETWORK, AND IT'S ONE OF THESE AMAZING EXAMPLES OF A MUTUAL AID NETWORK, WHERE AMERICANS GOT TOGETHER, OUR PARTICIPATORY ASSOCIATION, YOU KNOW, VOLUNTEER SIDE.

THEY EXPANDED OUT AND OUT UNTIL THEY REALLY HAD THIS AMAZING OPERATION GOING.

AND IT EVOLVED OVER THE COURSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

34th AVENUE, THEY TURNED INTO AN OPEN STREET SO PEOPLE COULD HAVE BETTER ACCESS TO THE OUTDOORS IN THIS CROWDED PLACE.

AND, YOU KNOW, A FEW WEEKS AGO, I CHECKED IN WITH HER, AND IT TURNS OUT, THAT SAME BASEMENT THAT WAS A MUTUAL AID NETWORK IN COVID IS NOW CALLED THE JACKSON HEIGHTS IMMIGRATION CENTER, AND SHE AND THE SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE HELPING EACH OTHER IN COVID ARE WORKING TO GET THOUSANDS OF ASYLUM SEEKERS BETTER INTEGRATED INTO NEW YORK CITY, GET THEIR PAPERWORK FILED SO THEY CAN BECOME CITIZENS OR GET SOCIAL SECURITY CARDS.

SHE'S REALLY BUILT A KIND OF INVISIBLE CIVIC INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND AT FIRST BLUSH, I THINK SHE FEELS REALLY DIFFERENT FROM DANNY, THEY CLEARLY ACTED IN VERY DIFFERENT WAYS, BUT BOTH OF THEM SHARED THE SENSE THAT NO ONE HERE IS REALLY TAKING CARE OF ME AND MY COMMUNITY'S PROBLEMS, AND THEY TOOK THINGS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS.

THE OTHER IN A WAY OF BANDING PEOPLE TOGETHER TO HELP EACH OTHER OUT.

>> YOU PROFILE A TEACHER IN CHINATOWN, WHAT WERE SOME OF THE STRUGGLES THAT WERE UNIQUE TO HER, BUT KIND OF DRIJ UP WHAT WAS FAILING IN THE EDUCATION INFRASTRUCTURE?

>> YEAH.

SHE'S AN AMAZING WOMAN.

SHE GREW UP IN MANHATTAN'S CHINATOWN.

SHE ACTUALLY IS NOW THE PRINCIPAL, AND SHE'S TAUGHT AT THE SAME SCHOOL WHERE SHE ATTENDED AS A KID.

HER HUSBAND WENT THERE, AS WELL.

ONE OF HER CHILDREN WENT THERE, SO, SHE'S PART OF THE SCHOOL, BUT SHE IS ALSO DEEPLY CONNECTED TO PEOPLE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, AND SHE HAS THIS MISSION, WHICH IS TO MAKE SURE THAT HER COMMUNITY IS TAKEN CARE OF.

THE FIRST BIG PROBLEM SHE HAD IS, THE PRESIDENT, YOU'LL RECALL, IN EARLY 2020, WAS TALKING ABOUT THE CHINA VIRUS.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT KUNG-FLU.

HE WAS WHIPPING UP THIS ANTI-ASIAN, PRETTY RACIST HYSTERIA, AND PEOPLE WERE FOLLOWING HIM INTO IT.

SO, EVEN THOUGH SHE'S IN CHINATOWN, WHERE YOU KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO FIND ASIAN AMERICAN PEOPLE, SHE WAS GETTING A LOT OF HARASSMENT HERSELF.

SHE WAS HEARING IT IN THE STREETS.

SHE REALIZED, SHE HAD TO PROTECT THE CHILDREN IN HER COMMUNITY.

SO, SHE STOPPED KIDS FROM GOING ON FIELD TRIPS, JANUARY AND FEBRUARY, AND THEN, OF COURSE, SCHOOLS GOT SHUT DOWN, AND SHE REALIZED, LOOK, A SCHOOL IS NOT JUST A PLACE WHERE KIDS LEARN, IT'S ALSO A PLACE WHERE COMMUNITIES FORM.

IT'S A PLACE WHERE CHILDREN IN NEW YORK CITY GET 2 1/2 MEALS A DAY.

IT'S A VITAL HUB OF ACTIVITY.

AND CONNECTION.

AND SO, SHE AND HER STAFF AND HER OWN KIDS DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO MAKE SURE THEY COULD HOLD THINGS TOGETHER.

ABOUT 80% TO 85% OF HER STUDENTS ARE ASIAN AMERICAN, MANY ARE IMMIGRANTS, MANY LIVE IN CROWDED APARTMENTS.

AND SHE REALIZED, MAYBE IT WOULD HELP TO DO REMOTE EDUCATION.

THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION IN NEW YORK WAS NOT REALLY SET UP TO PROVIDE THE SUPPORT THEY NEEDED.

EVENTUALLY, THEY SAID, WELL, WE'LL SEND TABLETS TO STUDENTS SO THEY CAN WORK REMOTELY, TO DO SCHOOL REMOTELY, BUT NOBODY HAS A DOORMAN, YOU CAN'T LEAVE FANCY COMPUTER EQUIPMENT ON THE STREETS OF MANHATTAN, SO, SHE AND HER KIDS WENT DOOR-TO-DOOR, RINGING BELLS, MAKING PHONE CALLS, UNTIL THEY MADE SURE EVERY SINGLE KID AND EVERY FAMILY WAS EQUIPPED TO CONNECT ONLINE.

THEN, THEY FOUGHT THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, WHICH WANTED TO CLOSE THE SCHOOL DOWN, SAID, WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO SERVE MEALS, EVEN IF WE DO IT OUTSIDE, AND THEY WERE ABLE TO MAINTAIN THEIR ROLE AS A MEAL PROVIDER.

>> YOU WROTE IN A RECENT OP-ED IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES," WHEN EVERYONE'S FUTURE WAS ON THE LINE, WE WALKED UP TO THE PRECIPICE OF A MORAL BREAKTHROUGH, AND THEN WE TURNED BACK.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> MANY VIEWERS WILL REMEMBER THAT IN 2020, THERE WAS A LOT OF TOUGH TIMES, BUT THERE WERE THESE MOMENTS WHERE YOU COULD SEE THE POSSIBILITY OF PROGRESS AND CHANGE.

MAYBE WE'D BE BETTER WHEN WE GOT THROUGH THIS.

ONE EXAMPLE I LIKE TO GIVE HERE IS, REMEMBER ESSENTIAL WORKERS?

WHEN EVERYTHING HAD FALLEN APART, WHEN THE ECONOMY WAS COLLAPSING AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE COULDN'T GO TO WORK AND LOST THEIR JOBS, THE GOVERNMENT SAID, SOME PEOPLE ARE SO IMPORTANT TO THE ECONOMY AND SOCIETY THAT WE'RE GOING TO CALL THEM ESSENTIAL WORKERS.

RIGHT?

AND BY THE WAY, THOSE WERE NOT THE BANKERS AND THE LAWYERS, EVEN THE NBA PLAYERS, RIGHT?

WE CANCELED THE NBA SEASON.

THEY WERE THE DOCTORS AND THE NURSES, FOR SURE, BUT ALSO FOR THE MOST PART, WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, RIGHT?

CLERKS, PEOPLE WORKING IN MEAT PACKING INDUSTRIES, POULTRY PLANTS, PEOPLE WORKING IN INFRASTRUCTURE, OUR PUBLIC TRANSIT DRIVERS, DELIVERY PEOPLE, CUSTODIANS.

AND IN THE U.S., YOU COULD IMAGINE THAT CALLING THEM ESSENTIAL WORKERS WOULD MEAN, WE'RE HONORING THEM, WE ARE GOING TO COMPENSATE THEM WELL, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE PPE, LIKE MASKS, OR, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE GREAT ACCESS TO THE BEST HEALTH CARE.

BUT OF COURSE, IN THE U.S., WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IS THAT, TO BE CALLED ESSENTIAL WAS TO BE DEEMED EXPENDABLE.

AND SO, ALL OF THESE WORKERS, THEY HAD FAR MORE EXPOSURE TO COVID.

THOSE WHO WORKED IN CROWDED PLACES, THEN CAME HOME TO CROWDED RESIDENTIAL ENVIRONMENTS PASSED THE DISEASE ONTO PEOPLE THEY LIVED WITH AND LOVED.

AND SO, THEY HAD MUCH HIGHER RATES OF DEATH AND DISEASE, AND THESE PEOPLE ARE DISPROIMPORTANCE NATTILY BLACK AND LATINO.

WHEN I SAY WE WALKED TO THE EDGE OF A MORAL PRECIPICE, YOU COULD IMAGINE THAT ONCE THIS COUNTRY SAID, THESE WORKERS, THESE LABORERS ARE ESSENTIAL, THAT WE WOULD THEN FOLLOW UP ON THE MORAL COMMITMENT THAT COMES WITH THAT, TO REALLY MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE OKAY.

AND INSTEAD, WE DID THE OPPOSITE.

WHEN THINGS CALMED DOWN, WE WALKED AWAY AND PRETENDED LIKE THAT NEVER EVEN HAPPENED.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO DO FOR OUR AUDIENCE IS LOOK AT YOUR BOOK AND THINK ABOUT IT AS SOMETHING COMPLETELY IN THE PAST, BECAUSE THERE ARE STILL THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE LONG COVID, AND THEY ARE LIVING WITH THIS NOW, BUT OUR ATTENTION TO COVID INFECTION RATES, REPORTED CASES, ALL OF THAT HAS WANED SO MUCH, AND I WONDER, HAS OUR COLLECTIVE KIND OF ATTENTION FADED, EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE STILL ACTUALLY MORE PEOPLE DYING FROM COVID TODAY THAN WOULD BE FROM INFLUENZA?

>> YEAH, I'VE BEEN SAYING, I THINK OUR RESPONSE TO COVID IS MARKED BY THE WILL NOT TO KNOW.

IT'S LIKE WE WERE SO TRAUMATIZED BY WHAT WE EXPERIENCED IN 2020 THAT WE TRIED TO KIND OF BOX IT UP, TUCK IT UNDER THE BED OR THROW IT INTO THE CLOSET AND ACT LIKE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

AND THE REALITY, AS YOU SAY, IS, COVID IS STILL OUT THERE.

IT'S STILL A VERY DANGEROUS CONDITION, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE OLDER.

ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE AN UNDERLYING MEDICAL CONDITION.

AND WE HAVEN'T BEATEN IT YET.

BUT WHAT'S MORE, AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO IMPORTANT, IS TO THINK ABOUT THE -- THE SOCIAL PART OF LONG COVID, RIGHT?

THE FACT THAT WHAT WE EXPERIENCED IN 2020 HAS THROWN US OFF.

SO, I'M THE PARENT OF TEENAGERS, AND, YOUTRUANCY IS AS HUGH AS IT'S EVER BEEN.

DOWNTOWNS ARE EMPTY.

WE TREAT EACH OTHER WITH A LEVEL OF SKEPTICISM AND DISDAIN THAT I THINK IS UNWARRANTED.

THE IMAGE THAT COMES TO MIND THAT I WE ARE ABOUT IN THE BOOK ARE THE VIRAL VIDEOS WE SAW OF AMERICANS FIGHTING IN THE AISLES OF WALMARTS AND ON AIRPLANES OVER WHETHER WE WERE WEARING A MASK?

THERE'S THIS WHOLE GENRE OF VIRAL MASK VIDEOS.

NO OTHER COUNTRY REALLY HAD THIS KIND OF ANGER AND VIOLENCE THAT GOT EXPRESSED IN PUBLIC SPACES OVER THIS, YOU KNOW, THIN LITTLE PIECE OF FABRIC.

AND I FEAR THAT THAT SOCIAL LONG COVID REMAINS WITH US IN A POWERFUL WAY.

IT SHAPES OUR POLITICS TODAY, IT SHAPES OUR SENSE THAT PEOPLE WE DISAGREE WITH ARE OUR ENEMIES, NOT JUST PEOPLE WE HAVE A POLITICAL DIFFERENCE WITH, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW A HEALTHY SOCIETY CAN CONTINUE IF WE CAN'T RESOLVE THOSE THINGS, AND SO, MY BOOK IS REALLY AN INVITATION FOR US TO TAKE A SECOND LOOK AND THINK ABOUT THE COLLECTIVE SOCIAL EXPERIENCE OF THIS IMPORTANT YEAR, A YEAR THAT WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES, EVEN IF IT'S HARD TO TALK ABOUT NOW, AND WE'RE NOT HEARING MUCH ABOUT IT IN THIS ELECTION.

>> I WONDER IF THIS POLITICIZATION OF HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT COVID PROHIBITS US FROM CRAFTING POLICY THAT MIGHT BE UP DEEM LOGICALLY SOUND, BUT POLITICALLY FRAUGHT.

>> EVERY HEALTH EXPERT I KNOW IS CONCERNED THAT WE ARE ACTUALLY PULLING RESOURCES AWAY FROM OUR PUBLIC HEALTH INFRASTRUCTURE AT THE END OF THIS PANDEMIC.

VACCINES HAVE BECOME MORE CONTROVERSIAL, RIGHT?

IT'S NOT JUST THE COVID VACCINE.

>> YEAH.

>> THERE'S A MEASLES OUTBREAK IN FLORIDA.

PEOPLE ARE WALKING AWAY FROM VACCINES AT A LEVEL THEY HAVEN'T BEFORE.

WE HAVE A REPUBLICAN MEDICATION THAT YOU TAKE IF YOU HAVE COVID, A DEMOCRATIC MEDICATION YOU TAKE IF YOU HAVE COVID.

WE HAVE POLITICIZED THE REALM OF PUBLIC HEALTH IN A WAY THAT IS CLEARLY DANGEROUS FOR ALL AMERICANS.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF A TRACK RECORD ON THIS IN THIS COUNTRY.

AT THE END OF THE GREAT INFLUENZA PANDEMIC OF 1918 TO 1920, THERE WAS A RUSH FROM THE U.S. TO KIND OF FORGET ABOUT THIS EXPERIENCE, ONE OF THE GREAT BOOKS OF HISTORY ABOUT THIS TIME IS CALLED "AMERICA'S FORGOTTEN PANDEMIC."

FORTUNATELY, AT THAT TIME, THE PUBLIC HEALTH LEADERS OF THE COUNTRY BANDED TOGETHER AND WERE ABLE TO DEVELOP BETTER POLICIES.

AND BY THE WAY, MANY OF THE COUNTRIES THAT DID THE BEST IN COVID IN 2020 WERE COUNTRIES THAT HAD LEARNED POWERFUL LESSONS FROM SARS IN 2003.

AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, CHINA, JAPAN, SINGAPORE, TAIWAN.

THE SCARE OF SARS GOT THEM THINKING ABOUT THE USE OF MASKS AND HOW TO PRODUCE THEM, HOW TO DISTRIBUTE THEM.

THE POWER OF TRACKING AND TRACING.

THE IMPORTANCE OF CLOSING BORDERS AND HAVING TEMPORARY SHUTDOWNS.

THOSE ARE PLACES THAT HAD SO MUCH MORE SUCCESS MANAGING COVID THAN THE UNITED STATES DID.

MY CONCERN, AND I THINK THE CONCERN OF EVERY PERSON WHO CARES ABOUT PUBLIC HEALTH IN AMERICA, IS THAT THE IDEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN CAMPAIGN TO DISCREDIT ALL PUBLIC HEALTH AT THE END OF COVID COULD MAKE THIS COUNTRY FAR WORSE WHEN THE NEXT VIRUS HITS.

>> WE FORGET THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PANDEMIC, WE ALSO HAD A MASSIVE CONVERSATION IN AMERICA ABOUT RACE AND EQUALITY IN THE WAKE OF THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

AND YOU ALSO COVER THE RISE OF SOME OF THESE -- I MEAN, HOW DID THAT KIND OF INTERFACE WITH WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN SOCIETY?

>> CRISES HELP US SEE OURSELVES AND HELP US SEE WHOSE LIVES MATTER.

AMERICANS WERE WATCHING THIS, AND THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER MADE IT TOO MUCH.

SO, I THINK THE FACT THAT SO MANY PEOPLES OF PEOPLE POURED OUT INTO THE STREETS AND DEMANDED SOMETHING DIFFERENT IS DEEPLY RELATED TO THE FACT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE WERE WATCHING THE INEQUALITIES OF COVID PLAY OUT ON A DAILY BASIS.

AND HERE AGAIN, WE HAVE ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS, A FLASHPOINT, WHERE IT LOOKED FOR SOME TIME LIKE THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER SOCIETIES MIGHT REALLY DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT ON RACIAL JUSTICE, LIKE, THERE MIGHT BE A RECKONING ABOUT OUR LEGACY OF RACIAL INEQUALITY, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF ENERGY TO PUSH FOR THAT RECKONING, BUT THEN, THE BACKLASH HIT HARD, RIGHT?

AND THE SAME GOVERNORS WHO WERE TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THE -- THEIR STATES COULD LET IT RIP AND THEY GOT RID OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH MANDATES, THEY STARTED TO ATTACK, YOU KNOW, DEI PROGRAMS AND TO BLOCK THE CONVERSATION ABOUT RACIAL INEQUALITY, RIGHT?

WE SAW IN FLORIDA, GOVERNOR DeSANTIS TAKE BLACK STUDIES, AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDIES OUT OF THE AP OFFERINGS FOR THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.

TRY TO TAKE BOOKS OUT OF THE LIBRARY, IF THEY DEALT WITH RACIAL INEQUALITY.

AND SO, HERE WAS A MOMENT WHERE IT LOOKED LIKE THERE WAS GOING TO BE A TREMENDOUS OPENING AND ADVANCE ON RACIAL JUSTICE, AND THE BACKLASH SHUT IT DOWN.

AND WE'RE STILL STUCK IN THIS PROBLEM.

I GUESS WHAT I'D SAY, THAT CRISIS OF 2020, WE'RE STILL LIVING INSIDE OF IT IN 2024.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "2020: ONE CITY, SEVEN PEOPLE, AND THE YEAR EVERYTHING CHANGED."

AUTHOR ERIC KLINENBERG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WITH RAMADAN UNDER WAY, PASSOVER NEXT MONTH, EASTER IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER.

AND THIS WEEKEND SAW THE ANNUAL CARNIVAL KICK OFF IN MACEDONIA, MARKING THE START WHERE DANCING RITUALS ARE DONE TO WARD OFF EVIL SPIRITS.

THERE ARE GIANT FEATHERED HEADPIECES TO MULTICOLORS WIGS.

AND AS YOU CAN SEE, MASKS, AND DISGUISES ARE A BIG THEME OF THIS CENTURIES-OLD FESTIVITY.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.