Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> WITH CEASE-FIRE TALKS IN GAZA DEADLOCKED, THERE IS NO END IN SIGHT FOR THE DESPERATE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

I ASKED AID WORKER GAVIN WHAT HE IS SEEING ON THE GROUND IN GAZA CITY.

>>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> ALLEGATIONS OF ETHNIC CLEANSING IN SYRIA.

OUR SPECIAL INVESTIGATION INTO VIOLENCE IN ONE SEASIDE VILLAGE.

>>> THAT'S AN INVASION.

HE INVADED OUR COUNTRY, SO IN THAT SENSE, THIS IS WAR.

>> IS THE WHITE HOUSE DEFYING A JUDGES ORDER?

WE LOOK INTO THE SUDDEN DEPORTATION OF HUNDREDS OF VENEZUELAN IMMIGRANTS.

>>> AND HARI SREENIVASAN TAKES A WIDER VIEW WITH SECURITY LAW >>> ALSO, A BREAKTHROUGH IN PEACE TALKS FOR ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN, BUT STILL, ARMENIAN LEADER RUBEN VARDANYAN REMAINS IN PRISON.

HIS FRIEND, NOUBAR AFEYAN, CALLS FOR HIS RELEASE.

>>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WE'RE, SYLVIA AND SIMON PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK LECHNER, THE PETER PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ PATRICIA U.N., COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> AND A WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE DEVASTATION IN GAZA SHOWS NO SIGN OF EASING.

AT LEAST NINE PEOPLE WERE KILLED AND MANY MORE INJURED IN AN ISRAELI ATTACK IN THE NORTH THIS WEEKEND.

GAZA'S MINISTRY OF HEALTH CALLS IT THE DEADLIEST INCIDENT FROM --SINCE THE ISRAEL-HAMAS CEASE- FIRE WENT INTO EFFECT IN JANUARY.

THEY CLAIM THE IDF STRUCK A STAGING SITE THAT POSED A THREAT TO ISRAELI TROOPS.

THE ATTACK COMES AS PROGRESS IN TALKS TO EXTEND THE CEASE-FIRE ARE NOW DEADLOCKED.

U.S.

NEGOTIATOR STEVE WITKOFF LAID OUT A BRIDGE TO EXTEND THE DEAL, BECAUSE THE HAMAS RESPONSE A NONSTARTER.

>> AFTER WAITING TWO OR THREE DAYS FROM HAMAS, WHICH IS THEIR USUAL MODE, WE GOT AN UNACCEPTABLE RESPONSE.

I'M NOT GOING TO GO INTO THE SPECIFIC DETAILS OF WHAT MADE IT UNACCEPTABLE, BUT IT WAS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

>> IN THE MEANTIME, AS PEACE TALKS DRAG ON, THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN GAZA JUST GETS WORSE AND WORSE.

IT IS NOW TWO WEEKS SINCE ISRAEL SHUT OFF ELECTRICITY, FOOD, FUEL, AND MEDICAL SUPPLIES IN A BID TO PRESSURE HAMAS TO ACCEPT AN EXTENSION OF THAT PRELIMINARY CEASE-FIRE.

FOR NOW, THE ONE FOCUS IS REALLY ON THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND.

GAVIN IS A HUMANITARIAN ACCESS MANAGER IN GAZA FOR THE NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL.

I SPOKE TO HIM FROM GAZA CITY.

GAVIN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE, ESPECIALLY AS YOU ARE THERE IN GAZA.

CAN YOU REALLY JUST GIVE US AN THE GROUND RIGHT NOW?

ISRAEL HAS CLEARLY CUT THE FLOWS OF ALL KINDS OF AID, FOOD, MEDICINE, FUEL.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING ON THE GROUND?

>> THERE IS A MOUNTING SENSE OF FEAR HERE NOW AS THE SIEGE OF GAZA ENTERS ITS 15th DAY.

WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BRING IN NO HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES, NO FOOD, NO COMMERCIAL SUPPLIES, AND NO FUEL ARE ALLOWED INTO THE GAZA STRIP.

AND WHAT IS PLAYING OUT IN THE MARKETPLACE IS IS THE COST OF FRESH FRUITS AND VEGETABLES INITIALLY TRIPLING IN PRICE.

IT NOW STARTED TO DISAPPEAR ALTOGETHER.

THE COST OF BASIC GOODS AND SUPPLIES IS ALSO ROCKETING, THE COMING UNATTAINABLE TO MANY PEOPLE HERE.

THE IMPACT OF HAVING NO FUEL IS PARTICULARLY CONCERNING FOR US, AS WE HAVE ALREADY GOT AMBULANCES THAT HAVE STOPPED RUNNING SERVICES BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE PETROL THAT THEY NEED.

IF WE DON'T GET A REFILL OF DIESEL AND OTHER FUEL IN THE COMING WEEKS, WE ARE GOING TO COLLAPSING, HOSPITAL GENERATORS CUTTING OFF, AND THAT IS NOT EVEN TO SAY ABOUT THE FOOD DISTRIBUTIONS, WE HAVE EMPTY WAREHOUSES AS HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS, SOME OF OUR BIGGEST FOOD PARTNERS WILL HAVE TO SUSPEND DISTRIBUTIONS OF FOOD IN THE NEXT 10 DAYS OR SO IF ISRAEL DOES NOT LIFT THIS SIEGE IMMEDIATELY.

>> THE PICTURE YOU JUST PAINT IT IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING, AND THIS IS GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT THE PEOPLE IN GAZA HAVE ALREADY BEEN THROUGH.

THE U.N. SAYS WE COULD BE ON THE BRINK OF YET ANOTHER HUNGER CRISIS IN GAZA, DO YOU AGREE?

AND HOW LONG DO YOU BELIEVE IT WILL TAKE IF THIS BLOCKADE CONTINUES?

>> ABSOLUTELY, THE VIEW FROM THE GROUND HERE IS YET AGAIN, [ INAUDIBLE ] ON THE BRINK OF TOTAL SOCIETAL COLLAPSE.

WHEN YOU DENY THE POPULATION TO FOOD, YOU ATTACK THE SYSTEMS THAT HAVE BEEN DECIMATED OVER THE LAST 17 MONTHS, YOU ATTACK MORE THAN 90% OF PEOPLE'S HOMES, DAMAGED OR DESTROYED, THE WHOLE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE GAZA STRIP HAS BEEN DECIMATED.

NOW WE ARE CUTTING OFF FOOD, WE ARE CUTTING OFF WATER SUPPLIES, OF COURSE SOCIETY IS GOING TO STRUGGLE TO FUNCTION.

IN TERMS OF FOOD, WE ANTICIPATE IN THE NEXT 10 DAYS, WHEN THE DISTRIBUTIONS STOP TAKING PLACE ALTOGETHER, THAT COULD BE A TRIGGER FOR A VERY SERIOUS COLLAPSE IN TERMS OF ACCESS FOR FOOD FOR THE POPULATION, BUT THE SAME FOR WATER SUPPLIES AS WELL.

WE MIGHT HAVE SLIGHTLY LONGER, [ INAUDIBLE ], BUT THE CUTTING OF THE ELECTRICITY LINE BY ISRAEL TO THE PLANTS IN GAZA IS ALREADY HAVING MAJOR IMPLICATIONS.

THEY HAD A DIRECT ELECTRICAL LINE THAT ALLOWED THAT WATER DESALINATION PLANT THAT TAKES WATER FROM THE SEA AND TURNS IT INTO DRINKING WATER FOR MORE THAN 600,000 PEOPLE, AND THAT LINE WAS CUT BY ISRAEL ON THE NINTH OF MARCH, AND NOW THAT PLANT IS OPERATING ON GENERATORS, ON THIS DWINDLING SUPPLY OF FUEL STOP, AND JUST A FRACTION OF THE WATER IT WAS ABLE TO MAKE PREVIOUSLY PAID AND ALREADY, DISTRIBUTIONS OF CHALLENGED ACROSS GAZA IN A SITUATION WHERE MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE BASIC AMOUNT OF WATER THAT THEY NEED A DAY.

>> SO, GAVIN, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

IF YOU ARE A FAMILY, YOU HAVE FOUR CHILDREN, AND YOUR FIRST AND FOREMOST TRYING TO DEAL WITH GETTING THE WATER, NOT TO MENTION SOME SUSTENANCE THROUGHOUT THE DAY, WHAT DOES LIFE LOOK LIKE FOR EVERYONE RIGHT NOW?

>> I WAS TALKING TO A COLLEAGUE SHORTLY BEFORE I BEGAN SPEAKING TO YOU, AND SHE WAS IN NORTHERN GAZA FOR THE ENTIRETY OF THE LAST 17 MONTHS.

I ASKED HER WHAT THE SITUATION WAS LIKE PREVIOUSLY, AND SHE RECOUNTED HORRIBLE STORIES OF EATING ESSENTIALLY GRASS AND WEEDS, AND DRINKING DIRECTLY SEAWATER WHEN THERE WAS NO CLEAN WATER AVAILABLE.

THE FEAR CANNOT BE DESCRIBED THAT PEOPLE HAVE HERE, NOT JUST FOR THEMSELVES, BUT FOR THEIR CHILDREN, FOR THE ELDERLY, AND FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE.

IT IS THE AGENCY ON THE DIGNITY OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IS REALLY BEING CHALLENGED YET AGAIN, AND THERE IS NO ASSURANCES THAT WE CAN GIVE THEM AS A HUMANITARIAN IN ANY POSITION TO HELP THEM IF THE SIEGE IS NOT LIFTED.

>> ESPECIALLY ARDUOUS GIVEN THE FACT THAT THEY HAD HAD THIS REPRIEVE, THEY BELIEVED THAT PERHAPS THINGS WOULD GO IN A LINEAR DIRECTION IN TERMS OF GETTING BETTER.

YOU KNOW, GAVIN, AS WE SPEAK TO YOU, WE CAN HEAR CERTAINLY THE BUZZING SOUND, THOSE ARE SURVEILLANCE DRONES OVERHEAD, BUT THAT SPEAKS TO THE MENACING ATMOSPHERE RIGHT NOW IN GAZA.

WHAT KIND OF VIOLENCE HAVE YOU SEEN?

IS THERE STILL FIGHTING?

WE HAVE SEEN REPORTS OF EVEN FISHERMEN BEING TARGETED.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO, IN THE INITIAL WEEKS OF THE CEASE-FIRE, THERE WAS A MAJOR REDUCTION IN MILITARY VIOLENCE ACROSS GAZA.

WE DID CONTINUE TO SEE, HOWEVER, ATTACKS BY THE ISRAELI FORCES , CLOSE TO THE RAFAH CROSSING AND THE RAFAH BORDER, AND THEY CONTINUE TO CARRY OUT ATTACKS ON FISHERMEN THROUGHOUT.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN, MORE COUPLE OF WEEKS, IS AN ESCALATION IN THE AMOUNT OF MILITARY FORCE BEING USED ACROSS GAZA.

WE ARE NOW IN A SITUATION WHERE YET AGAIN, YOU SEEING DAILY AIR STRIKES TAKING PLACE , NOT JUST IN BUFFER ZONES, BUT TARGETING DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS , AND PALESTINIAN CASUALTIES ON A DAILY BASIS.

WHILE THE CEASE-FIRE REMAINS IN EFFECT ON A POLITICAL LEVEL, WE'RE SEEING AN INCREASE IN MILITARY VIOLENCE ALREADY, AND THAT HAS ESCALATED NOTABLY IN THE LAST FEW DAYS ALONE.

>> YEAH, IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, AS WE HAVE HAD APPARENTLY REPORTS OF AID WORKERS KILLED.

WE HAVE REALLY BEEN A BIT CLINICAL IN THE LAST FEW MINUTES IN TERMS OF ARTICULATING EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON, BUT THIS OBVIOUSLY IS IN A VERY TRAUMATIC CONTEXT FOR PEOPLE IN GAZA.

FOR THE BETTER PART OF A YEAR, YOU HAVE BEEN IN AND OUT OF GAZA.

CAN YOU SPEAK TO PEOPLE'S MENTAL HEALTH AT THIS POINT IN TIME?

IT SEEMS PREPOSTEROUS TO EVEN THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE ANY MENTAL HEALTH AT THIS POINT IN TIME, BUT GIVEN THE FACT THAT THEY WERE SO CLOSE TO PERHAPS THINGS, AS I SAID, GETTING BETTER, AND NOW THEY SEEM TO BE TAKING A STEP BACK, HOW ARE PEOPLE COPING?

>> PREPOSTEROUS IS PROBABLY A GOOD WORD TO USE IN THIS SITUATION.

THERE WAS A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF HOPE AS THE CEASE-FIRE CAME INTO EFFECT, THAT IS NOT DISSIPATED AS WE REACH THIS STALEMATE AND AS WE ARE SEEING ALL OF THE CHALLENGES THAT PLAYED OUT OVER THE LAST 17 MONTHS START TO INCREASE AGAIN.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE DISENGAGED ALTOGETHER, THEY'RE NOT LISTENING TO THE NEWS, THE MEDIA, THERE SEEING THESE RESTRICT -- RIDICULOUS STATEMENTS ABOUT THE TOTAL DISPLACEMENT OF GAZANS, THE FACT THAT THEY COULD BE SET AND TO SUDAN OR INDONESIA [ INAUDIBLE ], THEY FEEL HELPLESS.

LET'S NOT FORGET THAT NOW FOR ALMOST A YEAR, NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN ABLE TO LEAVE.

MANY PALESTINIANS HAVE ALREADY SENT PART OF THEIR FAMILIES ABROAD, OUT OF GAZA, AND THEY ARE SEPARATED FROM THEIR HUSBANDS, WIVES, CHILDREN, PARENTS, AND THEY HAVE NO OPPORTUNITY TO RECONCILE WITH THEM, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE ARE MANY PALESTINIANS WHO ARE STEADFAST BUT THEY WILL WHAT HAPPENS NEXT, THAT THEY WILL DIE RATHER THAN BE DISPLACED AGAIN OUT OF GAZA CITY.

AND THEY LACK ANY REASSURANCE THAT THEY WILL HAVE THAT RIGHT TO REMAIN BUT WE HAVE THESE CAVALIER STATEMENTS COMING OUT FROM POLITICAL STATEMENTS OR THE MEDIA, GLOBALLY, THE ANNOUNCEMENTS WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

>> IN FACT, TO YOUR POINT, AP DID REPORT THAT THE U.S. AND ISRAEL WERE CONSIDERING RESETTLING -- YOU MENTIONED SUDAN, SOMALIA, AND I REMIND OUR VIEWERS THAT SUDAN ITSELF HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS ONE OF THE GREATEST HUMANITARIAN SITUATIONS IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, CLEARLY NOT ENCOMPASSING THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, BUT MOST OF IT.

WHEN PEOPLE IN GAZA HERE THESE THINGS, HOW HELPLESS DO THEY FEEL IN TERMS OF WE HAD ARAB ALLIES PUT ON THE TABLE SOME TYPE OF PLAN FOR RECONSTRUCTION, FOR REHABILITATION, WHERE ARE THEY LOOKING TO FOR HOPE RIGHT NOW, FOR GUIDANCE?

>> I THINK THE PLANS THAT HAVE BEEN TABLED, ARAB LED PLANS GAZA IS ONE OF THE LAST HOPES THAT PALESTINIANS HAVE LEFT, [ INAUDIBLE ] FROM THE WIDER INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, [ INAUDIBLE ] BUT IS IT THAT HELPLESSNESS THAT PEOPLE ARE FEELING HERE, IT SPEAKS TO THE COMPLETE DISREGARD OF PALESTINIAN LIVES AND PALESTINIAN SUFFERING THAT WE HAVE SEEN EVERY DAY FOR THE LAST 17 MONTHS.

MANY PEOPLE HERE HAVE STARTED TO ACCEPT THAT, THAT THERE IS NO HELP COMING, AND THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING TO DEAL WITH, IT IS A HORRIBLE THING TO ACCEPT, AND IT BECOMES MORE DIFFICULT EVERY DAY TO LOOK MY COLLEAGUES IN THE EYES AND TELL THEM THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO FOR THEM EXCEPT TRY TO CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE AND CAMPAIGN FOR THE RIGHTS TO BE RESPECTED.

>> AND I BET YOU MAKE IT CLEAR TO THEM THAT YOU MUST BE TRANSPARENT AND HONEST.

YOU YOURSELVES ARE HELPLESS.

I MEAN, DO YOU FEEL THAT THE LEVEL OF MISERY YOU ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW, THAT THE WORLD IS SEEN, IS MATCHED BY THE LEVEL OF COMPASSION AND CARE AROUND THE WORLD?

THERE IS SO MUCH --SO IF YOU CAN KEEP UP, THAT EVEN IF WE TALK ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN UKRAINE RIGHT NOW, DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH GLOBAL FATIGUE AND GLOBAL CAPACITY TO KEEP UP WITH THINGS LIKE THIS, AND GAZANS ARE CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE?

>> I THINK THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

AND WHAT WE ARE IN DANGER OF IS THE NORMALIZATION OF [ INAUDIBLE ], AND THEY HAVE SEEN THIS BECAUSE THE ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS AND THE VIOLENCE IN GAZA DID NOT START ON OCTOBER 7th, IT HAS BECOME A PART OF HISTORY, THAT WE EXPECT A CERTAIN DEGREE OF VIOLENCE, EVEN IN THE SITUATION OF THE CEASE-FIRE, WHEN ATTACKS WERE STILL BEING PERPETRATED FROM THE PERIMETERS.

ANY PALESTINIANS ARE SAYING THIS IS NORMAL, THIS WAS WHAT WAS HAPPENING EVEN BEFORE THE ESCALATION.

THE DANGER IS THAT WE ACCEPT THIS.

WE ACCEPTED THAT PALESTINIANS IN GAZA ARE SUPPOSED TO SUFFER TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

WHICH OF COURSE IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE, THEY HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS EVERY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

[ INAUDIBLE ] FROM THE WIDER INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, IS MAINTAINED NOW ESPECIALLY, AS WE ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE WE ARE UNDER COMPLETE SIEGE AND THERE IS NO HOPE IN SIGHT.

IT IS GOING TO NEED TO BE THE VOICE OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONVINCES ISRAEL TO LIFT THE SIEGE ON GAZA AND ALLOW THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE HERE TO BE RESPECTED AND ALLOW US TO DELIVER ASSISTANCE TO THEM.

>> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S MIDDLE EAST ENVOY TOLD CNN OVER THE WEEKEND THAT THIS WAS HAMAS'S PROBLEM.

THAT ANYTHING THEY HAD PUT ON THE TABLE WAS, IN HIS WORDS, MR. STEVE WITKOFF'S WORDS, A NONSTARTER.

DO PEOPLE IN GAZA SEE IT THIS WAY, THAT HAMAS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM?

>> I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO SEPARATE OUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN TERMS OF HUMANITARIAN NEEDS OR THE DENIAL OF HUMAN NATURE AND ASSISTANCE, WHICH IS COMPLETELY COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT, AND THE NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN PARTIES [ INAUDIBLE ] THOSE TWO THINGS CANNOT BE CONFLATED, YOU CANNOT CUT OFF WATER, CUT OFF FOOD TO A POPULATION OF 2.1 MILLION PEOPLE BECAUSE [ INAUDIBLE ] TAKING PART IN NEGOTIATIONS WITH EACH OTHER.

THOSE TWO THINGS NEED TO BE SEPARATED OUT VERY CLEARLY, AND THAT IS THE EXPECTATION THAT WE HAVE, [ INAUDIBLE ] INTERNATIONAL MILITARY LAW.

>> BUT WHY IS THERE NO SHIELD WITH HUMANITARIAN LAW?

WE HAVE SEEN LOTS OF HAPPENED REALLY.

>> THE LACK OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN [ INAUDIBLE ] INTO TANGIBLE CHANGES IS SOMETHING THAT HAS MAJOR RAMIFICATIONS, NOT JUST ON THE CONTEXT HERE IN GAZA, BUT ALSO ON NORMS AND STANDARDS GLOBALLY, WE CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE FOR ACCOUNTABILITY UNDER INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, AND WE CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE FOR THE RIGHTS OF PALESTINIANS TO BE RESPECTED.

IS THAT WHAT WE ARE SEEING, ARE WE SAYING THAT TRANSLATING INTO THINGS GETTING BETTER?

WELL, NO, LOOK AT THE SITUATION THAT IS HAPPENING AROUND ME IN THE GAZA STRIP RIGHT NOW, IT'S TERRIBLE.

BUT WE CONTINUE TO CALL FOR RESPECT BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY OPPORTUNITY AVAILABLE TO US.

>> GAVIN, WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE, WE WISH YOU SAFETY AND FORTITUDE AS YOU CONTINUE YOUR WORK THERE IN GAZA, APPRECIATE IT.

THE WAR IN GAZA IS ONE FRONT AND WHAT IS BECOMING AN INCREASINGLY UNSTABLE REGION.

IN YEMEN, DOZENS OF PEOPLE WERE KILLED WHEN DONALD TRUMP ORDERED MILITARY ACTION AGAINST AS FOR SYRIA, THERE ARE NOW SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LEADERSHIP OF INTERIM PRESIDENT AFTER ARMED MEN LOYAL TO HIS GOVERNMENT ATTACKED MEMBERS OF THE MINORITY COMMUNITY.

A SPECIAL INVESTIGATION, WE LOOK INTO EVIDENCE OF VIOLENCE IN ONE COASTAL VILLAGE.

WE DO WANT TO WARN YOU, THIS REPORT CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES THAT MAY BE HARD TO WATCH.

>> IT IS A SUNNY DAY IN THE SYRIAN COASTAL VILLAGE NAMED AFTER ITS PINE GROVE'S.

IT SEEMS TO BE A CHEERFUL TUNE.

>> [ SINGING ] >> BUT THIS IS A SONG THAT CELEBRATES DEATH.

BEHIND HIM, DEAD PEOPLE ARE STRUNG ALONG THE SIDES OF THE STREET.

HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN SCENES LIKE THIS IN COASTAL SYRIA THIS MONTH.

LOYALISTS OF THE RECENTLY DICTATOR BASHAR AL-ASSAD, AT AND POST THE SECURITY FORCES AND WHAT APPEARED TO BE A COORDINATED ATTACK.

THIS TRIGGERED THE KILLING SPREE AGAINST THE ISLE AWAITS, A MINORITY SECT.

[ INAUDIBLE ] BLAMED THE MASS KILLINGS ON ROGUE ELEMENTS, CALLING THE INCIDENTS VIOLATIONS.

ACCORDING TO RIGHTS GROUPS, THE CARNAGE PLAYED OUT ACROSS 25 AREAS, AND IN THE PINE VILLAGE, CNN FOUND EVIDENCE OF A MASSACRE.

HERE, FACTIONS LOYAL TO SYRIA'S NEW GOVERNMENT WENT HOUSE TO HOUSE, DRAGGING MEN OUT TO BE EXECUTED.

>> [ SOUND OF GUNFIRE ] >> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: HOMES WERE TORCHED, FIGHTERS SCREAMED SLURS.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: SURVIVORS SPOKE TO US ABOUT THEIR STILL FRESH MEMORIES.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: OUR VISUAL INVESTIGATION REVEALS THE SCALE OF THE HORROR.

WE COUNTED OVER 80 BODIES IN VERIFIED VIDEOS STREWN ALONG THE MAIN STREET.

LYING IN SHALLOW GRAVES, WRECKED IN SHROUDS.

SATELLITE IMAGES SHOWED MOUNDS OF DIRT AND SOIL DISTURBANCES CONSISTENT WITH MASS GRAVES IN THE AREA.

LOCALS SAY THEY COUNTED OVER 200 BODIES.

AND ARMED MEN PUBLISHED EVIDENCE OF THE ATROCITIES.

LIKE THIS VIDEO , FILMED AT THE ENTRANCE OF THE PINE VILLAGE.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: ETHNIC CLEANSING, ETHNIC CLEANSING, HE CHEERS.

WE SEE HIM AND THE RANSACKED HOME OF A FAMILY, THE COURTS OF AN ELDERLY RELATIVE SPLAYED OUT ON THE SOFA.

FATHER AND SON DEAD AT THE FIGHTER'S FEET.

WE TRACED THE VIDEO BACK TO THE PAGE.

IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, THE APPARENT OWNER OF THE PROFILE IS WEARING WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE INSIGNIA OF HTS.

THAT IS THE NEWLY DISSOLVED ISLAMIST MILITANT GROUP, LED UNTIL RECENTLY BY SYRIA'S INTERIM PRESIDENT, AHMAD AL- SHARAA.

WHETHER INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED IN THE MASSACRE HAVE BEEN HELD TO ACCOUNT IS UNCLEAR.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS SET UP A COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE KILLINGS.

BUT ACROSS COASTAL SYRIA, PEOPLE SAY THEY CAN'T FEEL SAFE UNTIL JUSTICE IS SERVED.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: IN WASHINGTON, THE WHITE HOUSE DENIES THAT IT VIOLATED A JUDGE'S ORDER SATURDAY TO HOLD THE DEPORTATIONS OF ALLEGED VENEZUELAN GANG MEMBERS TO EL SALVADOR, BUT GIVEN SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT ADMINISTRATION ACTIONS IN THIS CASE, THE CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS MAY NOW BE PLAYING OUT.

THE ADMINISTRATION RELIED ON A 200-YEAR-OLD LAW ENTITLED THE ALIEN ENEMIES ACT IN EXPELLING THOSE MIGRANTS.

A FEDERAL JUDGE TEMPORARILY BLOCKED THE DEPORTATIONS IN ORDER TO REVIEW THE GOVERNMENT ACTION, AND THE ADMINISTRATION ANNOUNCED SUNDAY THAT THE DEPORTEES ARE ALREADY OUT OF THE UNITED STATES AND SALVADORAN CUSTODY.

ELIZABETH IS A NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED EXPERT ON PRESIDENTIAL POWERS AT THE BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE.

AND I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE JOINING FROM WASHINGTON, AS WE CONTINUE TO TRY AND REALLY FIGURE OUT THE TIMELINE OF THESE EVENTS.

THE WHITE HOUSE SAYS THEY DO NOT VIOLATE THE JUDGE'S ORDER, BECAUSE THE MIGRANTS HAVE ALREADY BEEN REMOVED.

PRESS SECRETARY KAROLINE LEAVITT IN FACT SAYS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION DID NOT REFUSE TO COMPLY WITH A COURT ORDER, THE ORDER, WHICH HAD NO LAWFUL TERRORIST ALIENS AT ALREADY BEEN REMOVED FROM U.S.

TERRITORY.

A SINGLE JUDGE IN A SINGLE CITY CANNOT DIRECT THE MOVEMENTS OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER FULL OF FOREIGN ALIEN TERRORISTS, WHO WERE PHYSICALLY EXPELLED FROM U.S.

SOIL.

THOSE ARE THE [ INAUDIBLE ] FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

COULD YOU LET US IN ON THE FACT THAT SHE MAY BE WRONG ABOUT THE TIMELINE, BUT MAY ALSO BE WRONG LEGALLY.

>> I THINK THE MAIN POINT HERE IS THAT SHE IS SAYING THAT THE ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T REFUSE TO COMPLY WITH THE ORDER, BUT IN THE WAY SHE DESCRIBES IT, THEY ABSOLUTELY DID REFUSE TO COMPLY, THEY JUST TAKE THE POSITION THAT THE ORDER WAS UNLAWFUL OR THAT THE JUDGE DIDN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO ISSUE THE ORDER, AND THOSE ARE TWO VERY, VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

IF THE PRESIDENT THINKS THAT A JUDGE'S ORDER WAS UNLAWFUL FOR WHATEVER REASON, SUCH AS THE COURT DIDN'T HAVE JURISDICTION, THE PRESIDENTS REMEDY IS TO APPEAL.

PERHAPS FILE AN EMERGENCY APPEAL WITH THE APPELLATE ORDER.

THAT'S WHY CHECKS AND BALANCES MEAN, THAT MEANS THAT THE PRESIDENT CANNOT SIT AS THE JUDGE OF HIS OWN ACTIONS, WHICH IS WHAT YOU SEEMED TO BE TRYING TO DO IN THIS CASE.

X NOT TRYING TO DO, HE HAS ACTUALLY APPARENTLY DONE IT IN THIS CASE.

AS MENTIONED, THE ACT USED TO DEPORT THESE MIGRANTS IS THE ALIEN ENEMIES ACT OF 1798.

IT HAS ONLY BEEN INVOKED THREE TIMES, ALL DURING WARTIME, AND AGAINST ENEMY NATIONS.

RIGHTS GROUPS ARE NOW ARGUING IT IS BEING INAPPROPRIATELY IMPLEMENTED.

I WANT YOU TO LISTEN OUT TO THE PRESIDENT AND HIS TAKE ON THIS.

>> THEY INVADED OUR COUNTRY, SO IN THAT SENSE, THIS IS WAR.

THIS MAKES IT MORE DANGEROUS THAN WORK, BECAUSE IN WAR, THEY HAVE UNIFORMS, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE SHOOTING AT, YOU KNOW WHO YOU'RE GOING AFTER.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAME OUT, THEY ARE WALKING ON STREETS.

>> AND WE WANT TO GET YOUR POINT OF VIEW ON ALL THIS.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN A PIECE CALLED TRUMP'S FLAWED INVASION THEORY.

YOU WANT TO TALK US THROUGH THAT THEORY?

TRUMP USES IN ORDER TO IMPLEMENT THESE LAWS.

>> THE ALIEN ENEMIES ACT, AS YOU POINTED OUT, IS AN ANTIQUATED WARTIME AUTHORITY THE ONLY APPLIES DURING A DECLARED WAR, DECLARED BY CONGRESS, OR AN INVASION BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT OR NATION.

AND IN THIS CASE, IT IS AN ABSOLUTELY ILLEGAL POWER GRAB TO TRY TO USE THIS WARTIME AUTHORITY FOR PEACETIME IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT.

WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH VENEZUELA.

[ INAUDIBLE ] IS NOT THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT, AND WE ARE NOT UNDER ARMED ATTACK, WHICH IS WHAT THE TERM INVASION MEANS IN THE LAW.

SO, THIS IS NOT A LEGAL USE OF THIS AUTHORITY.

>> AND YET, THEY CONTINUE TO USE IT.

YOU WRITE THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION USING THIS INVASION THEORY --AND THIS IS INTERESTING, YOUR WORDS HERE, TO LAY CLAIM TO VAST PRESIDENTIAL POWER THAT JUST DOESN'T EXIST, YOU SAY, WHETHER IT IS PEACETIME OR WARTIME.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN?

THAT'S RIGHT.

IN ADDITION TO INVOKING THE ALIEN ENEMIES ACT, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER UNDER WHICH HE CLAIMS THAT THE EXISTENCE OF AN INVASION OF THE UNITED STATES MEANS THAT HE CAN SIMPLY SUSPEND ASYLUM LAW OR OTHER LEGAL PROTECTIONS THAT ARE AFFORDED UNDER IMMIGRATION LAW TO MIGRANTS.

AND AGAIN, THAT IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE AS A MATTER OF LAW, BECAUSE EVEN IF WE WERE IN AN INVASION, WHICH WE ARE NOT, THE PRESIDENT WOULD NOT GET TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH LAWS HE FOLLOWS.

THE SUPREME COURT HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT THE PRESIDENT MAY IGNORE A LAW PASSED BY CONGRESS ONLY IF CONGRESS ACTED OUTSIDE OF ITS OWN AUTHORITY IN PASSING THAT LAW, AND THERE IS SIMPLY NO QUESTION THAT CONGRESS HAS THE AUTHORITY TO PASS IMMIGRATION LAW.

THAT MEANS THE PRESIDENT HAS TO FOLLOW IT, INVASION OR NO INVASION, AND AGAIN, IN THIS CASE, THERE IS NO INVASION.

>> I THINK AN IMPORTANT IT SEEMS TO MANY AMERICANS NOW THAT THE JUDICIAL BRANCH IS NOT CURRENTLY UP TO THE TASK WITH DEALING WITH THIS EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY THAT SEEMS TO BE EXERCISED AT EVERY TURN.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE ABOUT THAT?

>> I WOULDN'T SAY THAT, I THINK THE COURTS HAVE BEEN REVIEWING THESE CASES QUITE DILIGENTLY, THEY HAVE ISSUED MANY TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDERS -- >> BUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ISN'T FOLLOWING THEM.

>> THE RIGHT, AND THAT IS AN UNPRECEDENTED SITUATION.

SO, I THINK IT IS GOING TO TAKE THE COURT SOMETIME TO WORK FOR THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO ENSURE THAT THE ORDERS ARE RESPECTED.

>> BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ABOUT REMEDY HERE, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, IF WE TAKE ANY INDIVIDUAL SITUATION, IT SEEMS THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL, EVEN BEFORE ANY KIND OF JUDICIAL, YOU KNOW, OPPORTUNITY THAT ANYONE WOULD HAVE TO TRY AND COUNTER IT.

>> THAT IS THE TRAGEDY, BECAUSE WE NOW HAVE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DEPORTED TO EL SALVADOR AND HONDURAS, WHO IT IS GOING TO BE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO REVERSE THAT, AND WHEN YOU DO AWAY WITH HEARINGS AND DUE PROCESS, WHICH IS WHAT THE ALIEN ENEMIES ACT ON ITS FACE ALLOWS THE PRESIDENT TO DO, THAT VIRTUALLY ENSURES THAT INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SWEPT UP IN THIS NET WITHOUT EVER HAVING A CHANCE TO PROVE THEIR INNOCENCE, AND THAT COULD INCLUDE U.S. CITIZENS.

THEY MAY FIND THEMSELVES IN HORRIBLE CONDITIONS IN A PRISON IN EL SALVADOR, WITHOUT ANY REALISTIC, PERCEIVABLE CHANCE OF GETTING OUT.

>> AND CNN HAS DONE REPORTING FROM THE PRISON, AND CERTAINLY THEY MAKE NO APOLOGIES FOR THE CONDITIONS IN WHICH MANY OF THOSE PRISONERS ARE KEPT.

AGAIN, I WANT TO GO BACK TO YOUR WORK ON PRESIDENTIAL POWER, BECAUSE PERHAPS PEOPLE ARE MISSING THE POINT.

WE HEAR MANY TIMES THAT THIS IS WHAT AMERICAN VOTERS VOTED FOR, THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT, AND THEY DO WANT TO BE TOUGH ON IMMIGRATION.

BUT DO YOU FEEL THAT THERE IS A DANGER HERE OF CHANGING THE SCOPE OF PRESIDENTIAL POWER?

IT IS A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW, ALSO A DEMOCRATIC IF THEY DON'T FIGHT IT ON THOSE GROUNDS.

>> I DON'T THINK THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY VOTED TO HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO ACTED LIKE A KING.

NOW, IF IT IS A QUESTION OF DEPORTING PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY MEMBERS OF THE GANG, THE PRESIDENT HAS AMPLE AUTHORITY UNDER IMMIGRATION LAW TO DEPORT MEMBERS OF VIOLENT CRIMINAL GANGS.

INSTEAD, THE PRESIDENT IS ABUSING AN INAPPLICABLE WARTIME POWER AND HE IS DOING SO IN A WAY THAT ENSURES THAT PEOPLE WILL BE DEPORTED BASED SIMPLY ON THE FACT THAT THEY ARE VENEZUELANS, AND NOT BASED ON ANY SORT OF GANG AFFILIATION OR GANG ACTIVITY THAT COULD BE PROVEN IN IMMIGRATION PROCEEDINGS, AND I DON'T THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE VOTED FOR THAT.

>> AND WE WILL LEAVE AT THEIR FOR NOW, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, APPRECIATE IT.

>> MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN ARE SAID TO HAVE REACHED A PEACE AGREEMENT TO END NEARLY FOUR DECADES NOW OF CONFLICT.

NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES OF A LONG THOUGHT BREAKAWAY REGION OF AZERBAIJAN, BUT FOR YEARS, IT WAS UNDER THE CONTROL OF ARMENIAN SEPARATISTS.

THEIR FORMER LEADER, RUBEN VARDANYAN, REMAINS IN PRISON AT THIS HOUR AFTER AZERBAIJAN TOOK CONTROL OF THE ENCLAVE IN 2023.

VARDANYAN IS STANDING TRIAL ON DOZENS OF CHARGES, 15 OTHERS ARE ON TRIAL WITH HIM.

VARDANYAN'S FRIEND, NOUBAR AFEYAN, IS SPEAKING OUT AGAINST HIS DETENTION.

HE IS ALSO THE CHAIR OF MODERNA, AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM AGAIN, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> NOW, THE CHARGES, WE DO WANT TO GET TO THIS PEACE AGREEMENT, BUT THE CHARGES ARE OBVIOUSLY SERIOUS.

YOUR FRIEND, RUBEN, WHO SERVED AS THE NUMBER TWO POSITION, HE WAS ARRESTED, AS WE WERE SAYING, BY FORCES IN SEPTEMBER 2023.

HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO CROSS INTO ARMENIA.

AZERBAIJAN HAS BROUGHT MORE THAN 40 CHARGES AGAINST HIM.

HE ACTUALLY FACES LIFE IN WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND HE IS BEING ACCUSED OF?

>> WELL, APOLLO, THE SITUATION, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR YOUR LISTENERS TO UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT THIS HAPPENED AS PART OF A MILITARY OFFENSIVE BY AZERBAIJAN INTO WHAT HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY FOR 30 YEARS A REPUBLIC, ENTIRELY ARMENIANS THAT HAVE LIVED THERE ON HISTORICAL LAND THAT HAS BEEN WITH ARMENIAN INHABITANTS FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, AND FOLLOWING A BLOCKADE OF THE YEAR, THEY PACKED AND ESSENTIALLY DROVE OUT IN WHAT HAS BEEN DEEMED ETHNIC CLEANSING BY MANY SCHOLARS.

THEY DROVE AT 120,000 ARMENIANS, INCLUDING RUBEN VARDANYAN, MY CLOSE FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE, WHO WAS THERE CARRYING OUT HUMANITARIAN PROJECTS.

HE WAS INDEED A PERIOD OF THREE MONTHS, THE STATE MINISTER OF THAT REPUBLIC, AND THE CHARGES THAT HAVE BEEN THROWN AT HIM AFTER ONE YEAR OF DELAYS AND DELAYS AND IN DETENTION, ARE ESSENTIALLY ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING.

IN FACT, THERE ARE 42 CHARGES, MANY OF WHICH PREDATE HIS PRESIDENCY, GOING BACK TO THE 1980s WHEN HE WAS A COLLEGE STUDENT IN MOSCOW.

SO, THIS IS KIND OF A COMPREHENSIVE EFFORT TO CONDUCT A SHAM TRIAL AND THROW EVERYTHING POSSIBLE .

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT NONE OF THESE CHARGES WERE PRESENTED TO HIM .

[ INAUDIBLE ] SOME 250,000 PAGES, WRITTEN IN A LANGUAGE HE DOESN'T SPEAK, WITH NO TRANSLATION.

SO, ESSENTIALLY, HE IS BEING CHARGED WITH THINGS THAT HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND, AND WITH EVIDENCE THAT IS COMPLETELY CONTROLLED BY [ INAUDIBLE ].

>> IN PROTEST, HE DID GO INTO A HUNGER STRIKE, ACCORDING TO ARMENIAN MEDIA .

LAST WEEK, HE ENDED THAT HUNGER STRIKE.

IT BEGAN ON FEBRUARY 19th.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF HIS CONDITION?

HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH HIM?

HAS ANYONE BEEN ABLE TO VISIT HIM, INCLUDING HIS FAMILY?

>> WELL, A COUPLE OF THINGS, THERE HAS BEEN LIMITED ACCESS FOR BRIEF PHONE CALLS THAT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED DURING PERIODS OF HIS ARBITRARY DETENTION, AND ESSENTIALLY FROM THOSE, I HAVE UNDERSTOOD FROM HIS FAMILY IN HIS CONDITION.

IN FACT, HIS MOST RECENT HUNGER STRIKE WAS THE SECOND TIME THAT HE DID THAT.

BACK IN APRIL A YEAR AGO, HE DID THE SAME FOR SOME 20 DAYS.

AND ESSENTIALLY, THE MOST RECENT ONE WHICH JUST ENDED, WAS TO BRING THE ATTENTION OF PEOPLE TO THE SHAM TRIAL.

ULTIMATELY, IF THIS WAS AN OPEN JUDICIAL PROCESS, I THINK HE WOULD BE GLAD TO PARTICIPATE AND DEFEND HIS CASE.

THE REALITY IS , THE ONLY PHYSICAL VISITS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE HAS BEEN WITH THE ICRC, THE RED CROSS, WHICH WAS ESSENTIALLY [ INAUDIBLE ] LAST WEEK, SO THE ICRC WAS KICKED OUT, OUT OF AZERBAIJAN ESSENTIALLY, YOU HAVE A CLOSED, OPAQUE JUDICIAL PROCESS, AND WHAT I KNOW ABOUT HIS CONDITION, HE IS WITHSTANDING THE VARIOUS TREATMENTS THAT HE HAS HAD, THE VARIOUS TIMES HE HAS BEEN SUBJECT FOR TORTURE, THAT HAS BEEN REPORTED BY THE PEOPLE WHO VISITED, BUT ESSENTIALLY, THIS IS A VERY DIFFICULT PROCESS, BUT ONE THAT UNFORTUNATELY IS NOT UNCOMMON IN STATES THAT ARE OPERATED IN THIS WAY.

>> I DO WANT TO GET TO THIS PEACE DEAL, WHICH IS FAR FROM FINALIZED, BUT ARMENIAN AND AZERBAIJANI OFFICIALS SAY BOTH COUNTRIES HAD AGREED TO THIS PEACE AGREEMENT, WHICH COULD END THIS CONFLICT, BUT THERE ARE STILL OBVIOUSLY MAJOR STICKING POINTS HERE.

IT IS UNCLEAR IF IT WILL ACTUALLY EVER BE SIGNED, AND I WANT TO HEAR AS WELL FROM YOU WHAT YOU BELIEVE THAT MEANS FOR THE FATE OF YOUR FRIEND, VARDANYAN, BUT I DO WANT TO QUOTE MARCO RUBIO HERE, THE UNITED STATES.

HE SAYS THE UNITED STATES COMMANDS ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN.

THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO TURN THE PAGE ON A DECADES-OLD CONFLICT AND ALIGN WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VISION FOR A MORE PEACEFUL WORLD.

NOW IS THE TIME TO COMMIT TO PEACE, SIGN AND RATIFY THE TREATY AND USHER IN A NEW ERA OF PROSPERITY FOR PEOPLE OF THE SOUTH CAUCASUS.

I MEAN, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS WILL SEE THE FINALIZATION OF THIS KIND OF A PEACE DEAL, AND WHAT WILL IT MEAN FOR THE RELEASE OF PRISONERS?

HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ABOUT THIS?

>> WELL, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE TWO OFFICIAL STATEMENTS, ONE WHICH WAS MADE LAST FALL BY PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF ON SOCIAL MEDIA, WHICH DEMANDED THE RELEASE OF THE ARMENIAN CHRISTIAN PRISONERS, AND THE SECOND THAT OCCURRED JUST YESTERDAY BY NSA HEAD MARK WATTS, WHO ESSENTIALLY ASKED FOR THE SAME THING, [ INAUDIBLE ] TO BE SIGNED, BUT IMPORTANTLY, EITHER BEFORE OR PART OF THE PEACE DEAL FOR THE CHRISTIAN , NOT TO MENTION, RUBEN IS JUST ONE OF [ INAUDIBLE ] AND ONE OF 23 PRISONERS THAT HAVE BEEN KEPT ILLEGALLY DETAINED BY AZERBAIJAN, SO, THERE HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR, DIRECT MESSAGES FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND IT IS CLEAR TO ME AND TO MANY THAT ANY PEACE AGREEMENT THAT DOES NOT INCORPORATE EITHER BEFORE OR DURING ITS EXECUTION THE RELEASE OF ITS PRISONERS, THAT THAT IS IN COMPLETE DEFIANCE OF THE CHALLENGE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS PLACED, AND HAS VERY DIRECTLY LOCATED TO THE OFFICIALS IN AZERBAIJAN.

LOOK, THERE IS [ INAUDIBLE ] OF FORCED PEACE AGREEMENTS THAT FOLLOW MILITARY AGGRESSION AND ETHNIC CLEANSING, AND THOSE PEACE AGREEMENTS UNFORTUNATELY DON'T LAST.

AS A DIASPORA IN ARMENIA, WHO WAS DOING A LOT OF WORK FOR 25 YEARS IN HELPING ARMENIA DEVELOP AND ACHIEVE A LEVEL OF SECURITY AND PROSPERITY, I MUST SAY, WHILE I VERY MUCH WOULD LIKE TO SEE A PEACE AGREEMENT PEACE AGREEMENT.

AND THERE ARE QUESTIONS RAISED ABOUT WHETHER THIS WILL EVER GET SIGNED, BECAUSE IT IS PRETTY CLEAR THAT THE STATE OF AZERBAIJAN IS USING THIS WAR OR THIS CONFLICT ARE DOMESTIC REASONS, WHILE SUPPRESSING A LOT OF FREE EXPRESSION THERE.

THE REALITY IS THAT THIS AGREEMENT MAY NOT GET SIGNED, AND IF IT DOES, IF IT EXCLUDES THE RELEASE OF THE PRISONERS, I DON'T THINK [ INAUDIBLE ].

>> WE ONLY HAVE LESS THAN A MINUTE LEFT AND IT IS GOING TO BE A HARD TURN HERE, BUT GIVEN YOUR POSITION AT MODERNA, I WANT TO ASK HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND ITS ATTITUDE TOWARD VACCINES.

IS IT TRUE THAT THEY ARE PULLING SOME FUNDING FROM MODERNA, REGARDING PERHAPS EVEN THE BIRD FLU VACCINE THAT YOU HAVE IN DEVELOPMENT?

>> YOU KNOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CLEARLY IS A TOTALLY NEW SET OF APPROACHES AND MIND-SETS, AND WE, LIKE MANY OTHER COMPANIES, ARE VERY MUCH LOOKING TO WORK, TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT EVERYONE SHOULD DO TO BE ABLE TO ADVANCE THE PUBLIC HEALTH OF AMERICANS, AND FOR THAT MATTER, THE WHOLE WORLD.

MODERNA PLAYS A VERY CRITICAL ROLE WITH ITS VACCINE TECHNOLOGY.

IT CERTAINLY HAD A BIG ROLE IN SAVING MILLIONS OF LIVES, AND WE PLAN TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT, AND WE ARE ACTUALLY QUITE CONFIDENT AND OPTIMISTIC THAT WE WILL BE ABLE TO WORK THROUGH ANY CHANGES THAT NEED TO BE MADE IN TERMS OF THE REGULATORY REGIME OR OTHER ASPECTS, AND I THINK WE JUST NEED TO GET THROUGH IT.

IT'S CLEAR THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE BEING QUESTIONED IN ALL ASPECTS OF THE ECONOMY, AND ALL REGULATION, AND WE, LIKE OTHER COMPANIES, WILL WORK WITH THEM TO DO THAT.

THE CONVERSATIONS ARE ONGOING, AND I CAN'T SAY ANYTHING [ INAUDIBLE ] , WE BELIEVE THIS IS SOMETHING WE WILL WORK THROUGH >> UNDERSTOOD, AND 23, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM, WE APPRECIATE IT.

NOW TO ANOTHER ONE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S EXECUTIVE ORDERS, AND IT IS UNDER SCRUTINY.

HIS TERMINATION OF SECURITY CLEARANCES FOR TWO PROMINENT LAW FIRMS, BOTH OF WHICH HAS AS THE 2016 DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE HILLARY CLINTON, AND JACK SMITH, THE SPECIAL COUNSEL APPOINTED BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THAT BROUGHT CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST THE CURRENT PRESIDENT.

FORMER ACTING ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE DOJ, MARY McCORD, SPEAKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE CHILLING EFFECT OF THESE ATTACKS ON THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

>> PAULA, THANKS.

MARY McCORD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

ON FRIDAY, THE PRESIDENT WENT AND ADDRESSED THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, HE WANTED TO LAY OUT HIS CASE FOR ABOUT AN HOUR ON LAW AND ORDER, BUT INSTEAD, THERE WERE A LOT OF TIMES WHERE HE SPENT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ENERGY ATTACKING HIS ADVERSARIES, HIS ENEMIES, PERCEIVED OR REAL, BUT WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT SPEECH?

IT'S FIRST OF ALL, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS SAT THROUGH NUMEROUS SPEECHES IN THE GREAT HALL OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, BECAUSE I WAS IN THE DEPARTMENT FOR ALMOST 25 YEARS, IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY SPEECH, IT WAS A POLITICAL RALLY, AND IT WAS A REAL PROMISE OF VENGEANCE.

THOUGH WE COULDN'T SEE THE AUDIENCE, THAT THAT WAS NOT AN AUDIENCE MADE UP OF CAREER AND LONG-TERM DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE LAWYERS AND STAFF, IT SEEMED TO BE A HAND-PICKED AUDIENCE OF POLITICAL APPOINTEES AND ALLIES , AND HE SPOKE TO THEM DIRECTLY.

AND YOU KNOW, NORMALLY --FIRST OF ALL, IT IS RARE FOR THE PRESIDENT TO COME SPEAK TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AT ALL.

IN PART, THAT IS BECAUSE EVERYONE USUALLY IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE DEPARTMENT WANTS TO MAINTAIN THAT SORT OF INDEPENDENCE AND THE PERCEPTION OF INDEPENDENCE.

BUT IF A PRESIDENT DOES COME, IT IS TO TALK ABOUT A NEW INITIATIVE, AND I THINK THE THOUGHT HERE WAS MAYBE HE WAS GOING TO BE TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE FENTANYL CRISIS OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE, BUT NO, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN DURING HIS CAMPAIGN AT A RALLY, YOU KNOW, ANYWHERE ACROSS AMERICA, SPEAKING TO HIS SUPPORTERS.

>> WHAT HAVE YOU NOTICED IN BOTH THE TENOR, TONE, AND ACTUALLY EVEN THE SUBSTANCE OF WHAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE LAWYERS ARE TAKING TO COURT, JUST IN THESE PAST TWO MONTHS?

>> WELL, HE TRIED TO MAKE -- I THINK YOU SAID AT ONE POINT, WE WERE GOING FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF INJUSTICE TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

AND HE SUGGESTED THAT WHAT THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE DEPARTMENT WERE GOING TO BE DOING WAS TO HOLD ACCOUNTABLE GOVERNMENT ATTORNEYS AND OTHERS WITHIN GOVERNMENT FROM THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN, BUT OF COURSE, PART OF HIS NARRATIVE IS THAT THE DEPARTMENT HAD BEEN WEAPONIZED AGAINST HIM, HAD PROSECUTED HIM FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES, AND HE MADE CLEAR, I THINK HIS WORDS WERE SOMETHING THAT WE WILL ROOT OUT THE ROAD ACTORS WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, AND HE SPECIFICALLY POINTED TO ATTORNEYS THAT HE HAD PUT INTO THE DEPARTMENT LEADERSHIP, WHICH, REMEMBER, ARE BASICALLY HIS PERSONAL CRIMINAL DEFENSE TEAM.

HE HAS TODD BLANCHE AND EMIL BOVE UP AS HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL ON PRINCIPLE ATTORNEY GENERAL, THEY WERE OF COURSE HIS PRIMARY CRIMINAL DEFENSE COUNCIL.

PAM BONDI AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WAS HIS FIRST IMPEACHMENT DEFENSE COUNCIL, AND EVEN JOHN SAUER AS HIS SOLICITOR GENERAL, WAS HIS DEFENSE COUNCIL IN THE JANUARY 6 CASE THAT ARGUED IN THE SUPREME COURT, RESULTING IN THE IMMUNITY DECISION.

SO, HE WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO THEM, AS WELL AS TO THE NEW FBI DIRECTOR, KASH PATEL, ABOUT WHAT HE EXPECTED THEM TO DO.

IN TERMS OF THE OTHER ATTORNEYS AND STAFF IN THE DEPARTMENT, I DON'T THINK HE GAVE THEM REALLY ANY CREDIT FOR THE GOOD WORK THE DEPARTMENT JUGS OVER THE YEARS, BECAUSE IF YOU WERE SITTING THERE LISTENING, YOU WOULD THINK THAT EVERYTHING UP UNTIL THAT MOMENT WHEN HE IS SPEAKING TO YOU AND SAYING WE ARE BASICALLY TURNING THE PAGE, THAT EVERYTHING UP TO THAT MOMENT HAD BEEN CORRUPT, WHEN OF COURSE, THOSE WHO HAVE WORKED THERE FOR DECADES, KNOW THAT THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

YOU KNOW WHAT, THE PRESIDENT IS REWARDING PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LOYAL TO HIM, WHO HE THINKS UNDERSTANDS HIS WORLDVIEW, AND THINKS THEY WILL CARRY OUT SORT OF HIS INTEREST.

NOW, WHY IS THAT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT ANY OTHER PRESIDENT DOES?

>> SO, AS A MATTER OF POLICY, THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, AND AS SOMEONE WHO WORKED IN THE DEPARTMENT THROUGH MULTIPLE ADMINISTRATIONS, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS, I CAN SAY THAT THE POLICIES DID CHANGE.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE FOCUS ON IMMIGRATION AS PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL AND DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE LEADERSHIP WANT TO DO, THAT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE SEEN BEFORE, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT CAREER DEPARTMENT ATTORNEYS AND ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S FOR DIFFERENT ATTORNEYS OFFICES AROUND THE COUNTRY, THAT IS SOMETHING THEY ARE YOU STUPID WE ARE GOING TO PRIORITIZE ONE THING, THIS ADMINISTRATION, MAYBE OVER ANYTHING ELSE.

THAT'S A DIFFERENT THING THAN USING THE MECHANISMS AND INTELLIGENCE COLLECTION AND PROSECUTION TO ACTUALLY GO AFTER ENEMIES.

THERE IS NOTHING HE WAS SAYING THAT SUGGESTED THOSE IN THE DEPARTMENT PREVIOUSLY OR JACK SMITH'S TEAM, JACK SMITH BEING THE SPECIAL COUNSEL, OF COURSE WHO INVESTIGATED BOTH THE MAR-A- LAGO MATTER AND THE JANUARY 6th MATTER INVOLVING DONALD TRUMP, AS WELL AS THE PROSECUTORS WHO PROSECUTED THE ATTACKERS, THOSE WHO ATTACKED THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th.

THERE IS NOTHING HE SAYS, OTHER THAN JUST LABELING WITH ADJECTIVES THAT THESE ARE HORRIBLE PEOPLE, NOTHING THAT SUPPORTS THAT THEY DID ANYTHING IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW, IN VIOLATION OF ETHICAL CODES, OR ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE PURSUIT OF JUSTICE, AND RECALL THAT DURING THE LAST ADMINISTRATION, IT WAS NOT ONLY DONALD TRUMP WHO WAS INVESTIGATED AND PROSECUTED, BUT ALSO JOE BIDEN HIMSELF, WHILE A SITTING PRESIDENT.

NOT PROSECUTED, BUT INVESTIGATED WITH RESPECT TO WHETHER ANY MISHANDLED.

JOE BIDEN'S SON, HUNTER BIDEN, INVESTIGATED AND PROSECUTED.

WHAT THE ATTORNEYS IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DO IS THEY FOLLOW THE FACTS WHERE THEY LEAD AND THEY APPLY THE LAW TO THOSE FACTS.

AND WHAT WE ARE HEARING NOW IS SORT OF THE SAME ALTERNATE REALITY THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS PREACHING RELATED TO HIS BASE THROUGHOUT THE CAMPAIGN, WHICH IS THAT SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN WHAT ALL OF US COULD SEE WITH OUR OWN EYES AND HEAR WITH OUR OWN EARS, SOMETHING DIFFERENT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6, AND THAT THOSE WHO WERE PROSECUTED WERE POLITICAL PRISONERS AND HOSTAGES, SO HE CONTINUES ESSENTIALLY THAT FALSE NARRATIVE, AND CONTINUED THAT IN THE GREAT HALL OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ON FRIDAY.

LAST WEEK, THERE WAS ONE LAW FIRM , PERKINS, WHICH HAS A COUPLE THOUSAND LAWYERS, IT IS NATIONALLY KNOWN, IT FACED OFF AGAINST THE ADMINISTRATION IN COURT.

THEY WERE FIGHTING AGAINST AN EXECUTIVE ORDER WRITTEN BY THE WHITE HOUSE THAT SAID THAT ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, THIS LAW TO DEAL WITH THE GOVERNMENT.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, THAT REALLY CLIENTS OF THE LAW FIRM THAT HAVE ANY CONTRACTS WITH THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE SCRUTINIZED.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT MANDATE?

>> THIS IS A PRETTY EXTRAORDINARY EXECUTIVE ACTION, AND CLEARLY THE JUDGE THOUGHT SO AS WELL.

JUDGE HOLLAND OF THE D.C. FEDERAL DISTRICT COURT, SHE DID ISSUE AN INJUNCTION, A RESTRAINING ORDER AGAINST PROVISIONS OF THAT EXECUTIVE ORDER.

THIS WAS REALLY AN OUTRIGHT ATTACK ON THE LEGAL PROFESSION, AND IT WAS FOLLOWED ON FRIDAY BY A SIMILAR EXECUTIVE ORDER AGAINST ANOTHER MAJOR INTERNATIONAL LAW FIRM, PAUL WEISS.

VERY SIMILARLY, STARTING OUT TALKING ABOUT WHAT A DANGER LARGE LAW FIRMS ARE TO SORT OF THE COUNTRY, AND BLACKLISTING PAUL WEISS MUCH IN THE SAME WAY THAT THE EXECUTIVE ORDER ABOUT PERKINS BLACKLISTED PERKINS.

TO YOUR POINT, DID THINGS STRIP SECURITY CLEARANCES OF ATTORNEYS THERE, RESTRICTED -- SAID ANY TYPE OF GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS WITH THESE LAW FIRMS SHOULD BE TERMINATED, EVEN SOUGHT IN BOTH OF THESE ORDERS TO LIMIT ACCESS BY THE ATTORNEYS AT THESE MAJOR FIRMS INTO GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS OR TO MEETING WITH GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

SO, IMAGINE A FIRM THAT DOES GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS WORK THAT IS INVOLVED IN LITIGATION BEFORE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, IS INVOLVED IN REPRESENTING REGULATED ENTITIES , YOU KNOW, WITH THEIR REGULATIONS THAT ARE ADMINISTERED BY THE DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES.

IT MEANS ESSENTIALLY, THEY CANNOT DO THEIR WORK.

AND THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE A VERY POINTED EFFORT, BECAUSE THE REASON --THE STATED REASON IN THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS IN BOTH CASES --AND I WILL ALSO MENTION A THIRD ONE, WHICH IS DIRECTED AT THE LAWYERS AT COVINGTON AND BURLINGTON, WHO ARE REPRESENTING JACK SMITH, IT IS DIRECTED PERSONALLY OUT OF VENGEANCE.

IN THE CASE OF PERKINS, THIS IS STATED IN THE EXECUTIVE ORDER, I'M NOT JUST SPECULATING ABOUT THIS, IT IS BECAUSE THE FIRM HAD REPRESENTED HILLARY CLINTON'S CAMPAIGN BACK IN 2016.

IT IS BECAUSE IT HAD FILED LITIGATION ON VOTING RIGHTS, THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DISFAVORS.

AND IT IS BECAUSE THEY ASSERTED THAT PERKINS ENGAGED IN DIFFERENT TYPES OF PROGRAMS TO INCREASE THE MINORITY REPRESENTATION WITHIN ITS LAWYERS AND ITS STAFF.

AND SIMILARLY, AS DIRECTED AT PAUL WEISS, IT IS BASED ON THE ACTIONS OF AN ATTORNEY THAT USED TO WORK THERE, THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DOESN'T LIKE.

AND THEIR OWN DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUSION POLICIES.

SO, THESE ARE TARGETED BECAUSE OF PERSONAL VENGEANCE IS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, BUT THEY ARE ALSO SHOT ACROSS, THEY ARE MEANT TO INTIMIDATE OTHER BIG LAW FIRMS INTO NOT FILING LITIGATION AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT, INTO NOT COMING TO MIGHT BE TARGETED BY THE GOVERNMENT, REALLY TO TRY TO GET THE LAWYERS OUT OF THE WAY.

>> IN THE PRESIDENTS RATIONALE, IN WRITING, AS YOU SAY, HE HAS GONE AND SAID I WAS THE TARGET OF CORRUPT POLITICIANS FOR FOUR YEARS, AND THEN FOUR YEARS AFTER THAT, SO DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT TARGETING.

HE FEELS THAT THESE LEGAL TEAMS AND THESE ACTIONS AGAINST HIM WERE PART OF AN ATTACK.

AND HE, IN HIS MIND, AND IN WRITING, HE IS SAYING I AM TRYING TO WRITE THESE WRONGS.

WHERE IS SORT OF HIS LOGIC WILL [ INAUDIBLE ] >> WELL, BECAUSE YOU DON'T USE -- [ INAUDIBLE ] IN THE CASES WHERE IT IS CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, OR EVEN A CIVIL CASE, PEOPLE ARE ENTITLED TO ATTORNEYS TO DEFEND THEIR POSITION, AND HE HAS WELL TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THIS MOST RECENTLY, OF COURSE, AND THE PROSECUTIONS HE IS TALKING ABOUT, HE HAS HAD A LEGAL TEAM WORKING REALLY 24/7, DEFENDING HIM IN CRIMINAL CASES BROUGHT AGAINST HIM, NOT ONLY FEDERAL CRIMINAL CASES, BUT STATE CRIMINAL CASES, CIVIL CASES BROUGHT AGAINST HIM, THE E. JEAN CARROLL MATTER FOR EXAMPLE, THE CASE BROUGHT BY THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING CORPORATE BUSINESS FRAUD.

HE HAS BENEFITED THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE FROM DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DOING THEIR JOBS.

SIMILARLY, HE HAS USED ATTORNEYS TO BRING CASES, MANY, MANY, MANY CASES OVER THE COURSE OF HIS CAREER, PARTICULARLY IN HIS BUSINESS ENDEAVORS, SO HE WELL UNDERSTANDS THAT THIS IS THE JOB OF LAWYERS, NOT TO BREAK THE LAW.

AND NO ONE HAS ACCUSED HIS LAWYERS ARE BREAKING THE LAW, BUT TO PROVIDE REPRESENTATION CONSISTENT WITH CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, INCLUDING PARTICULARLY IN CRIMINAL CASES, THE RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS OF LAW AND THE RIGHT TO CANCEL.

AND SO, WHERE HE BREAKS HERE IS IN TRYING TO PUNISH THOSE LAW FIRMS WHO ARE DOING THE VERY THING THAT OUR ENTIRE SYSTEM DEPENDS ON, WHICH IS LAWYERS PROVIDING LEGAL COUNCIL TO CLIENTS, WHETHER IN CRIMINAL MATTERS OR CIVIL MATTERS, TO ENSURE THAT THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT OF COUNCIL, THAT THEY HAVE DUE PROCESS, AND THAT ANY PROCEEDINGS AGAINST THEM ARE DONE FAIRLY, AND CONSISTENT WITH CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

AGAIN, IT IS THE POINTING FINGERS AND SUGGESTING CRIMINAL MISFEASANCE --CRIMINAL MALFEASANCE OF ANYONE WHO HAS EVER CHALLENGED HIM, THAT'S WHERE I THINK HE GOES REALLY ALL RIGHT.

WHAT IS REALLY OUR --IRONIC ABOUT THIS IS DAY ONE IN HIS EXECUTIVE ORDER, ABOUT ENDING THE WEAPONIZATION OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND IN SUBSEQUENT STATEMENTS HE HAS MADE ABOUT ENDING THE WEAPONIZATION OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, HIS IMPLEMENTATION PLAN SEEMS TO BE WEAPONIZING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND PARTICULARLY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

I THINK THAT IS A VERY DANGEROUS THING.

>> THE AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION PUT OUT A STATEMENT IN RESPONSE TO THE FIRMS THAT ARE BEING TARGETED.

I WANT TO READ A PART OF IT.

IT'S AS IF A COURT ISSUES A DECISION THIS ADMINISTRATION DOES NOT AGREE WITH, THE JUDGE IS TARGETED.

IF A LAWYER REPRESENTS PARTIES IN A DISPUTE WITH THE ADMINISTRATION OR IF A LAWYER REPRESENTS PARTIES THE ADMINISTRATION DOES NOT LIKE, LAWYERS ARE TARGETED THESE ACTS HIGHLIGHT GOVERNMENT EFFORTS TO INTERFERE WITH FAIR AND IMPARTIAL COURTS, THE RIGHT TO CANCEL AND DUE PROCESS, AND THE FREEDOMS OF SPEECH AND ASSOCIATION IN OUR COUNTRY.

THIS IS THE AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION RESPONDING NOW.

BUT I WONDER, IS THE DAMAGE ALREADY DONE?

IS THE CHILLING EFFECT KIND OF UNDERWAY?

RIGHT?

I MEAN, WHILE A SPECIFIC LAW FIRM, LIKE ANY BUSINESS, AND SAY, LISTEN, YOU ARE IMPEDING MY ABILITY TO MAKE MONEY AND HAVE CLIENTS, BUT THIS OTHER NOTION , AS SOON AS YOU PICK OFF TWO OR THREE MAJOR FIRMS AND EFFECT KIND OF THROUGH WASHINGTON AND OTHER PLACES THAT FOR BUSINESS REASONS, OR FOR HEADACHE REASONS, OR WHATEVER REASONS, OTHER FIRMS MIGHT JUST CHOOSE TO SAY, I AM JUST GOING TO STEER CLEAR OF THIS?

>> THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT IT IS ALREADY HAVING THAT CHILLING EFFECT.

I WILL NOT SAY THE DAMAGE IS DONE AND CAN'T BE REPAIRED, BUT IT IS CLEARLY HAVING THE EFFECT IT WAS TENDED TO.

WE ARE SEEING SOME MAJOR LAW FIRMS THAT ARE LITIGATING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW OR PARTICIPATING IN CASES BEING BROUGHT, CHALLENGING VARIOUS EXECUTIVE ACTIONS, THERE ARE CERTAINLY LAW FIRMS WHO ARE STEPPING UP TO DEFEND SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN TARGETED BY DONALD TRUMP OR BY HIS DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

AND THERE ARE MANY, MANY NONPROFITS THAT ARE DOING THAT TYPE OF WORK , THOSE THAT DO PUBLIC INTEREST WORK, INCLUDING MY OWN ORGANIZATION AT GEORGETOWN LAW, WHICH HAS LITIGATED CHALLENGING THE BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP THINGS, FOR EXAMPLE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF LAWYERS THAT ARE NOT BEING CHILLED, BUT THE IMPACT IS CLEAR WHEN YOU ARE IN THE LEGAL FIELD, PARTICULARLY HERE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., WE CAN NOTICE WHICH FIRMS ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THE CASES.

WE KNOW FROM TALK AMONGST OURSELVES THAT IN CERTAIN FIRMS, THE DIRECTION HAS BEEN, NO, WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET INVOLVED IN THAT.

WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME SORT OF ATTORNEYS WITHIN FIRMS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN DOING SOMETHINGS PRO BONO, FINE SCENES, SO THEY CAN SUPPORT CHALLENGES TO OVERREACHING EXECUTIVE ACTION, BUT IT CAN'T HAVE THE NAME OF THE MAJOR LAW FIRM IN WHICH THEY WORK.

SO, THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING, BUT THE CHILLING EFFECT IS REAL, AND THAT IS WHAT WAS INTENDED.

BUT IF PEOPLE DON'T STAND UP FOR THEIR RIGHTS, IF THEY DON'T CHALLENGE OVERREACHING AND UNLAWFUL --AND IN MANY CASES UNCONSTITUTIONAL CONDUCT BY THIS ADMINISTRATION, THAT ALLOWS THE ADMINISTRATION TO JUST KEEP ON DOING IT.

>> PAM BONDI, THE NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL, SAID RECENTLY, "THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE FBI AND ALSO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WHO DESPISE DONALD TRUMP, DESPISE US, DON'T WANT TO BE THERE.

WE WILL FIND THEM, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY, YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN HONESTY, YOU HAVE TO DO THE RIGHT THING, AND RIGHT NOW, WE'RE GOING TO ROOT THEM OUT.

WE WILL FIND THEM AND THEY WILL NO LONGER BE EMPLOYED."

AND YOU WORKED IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, AND THE NATIONAL SECURITY REALM.

TELL US KIND OF YOUR REACTION TO HEARING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL SAY THAT ABOUT, WELL TECHNICALLY, HER COLLEAGUES.

>> SO, NOTABLY, THERE WAS NOTHING THERE SUGGESTING THAT ATTORNEYS OR EMPLOYEES AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WERE NOT FILLING THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES, THEIR DUTIES, THEIR OBLIGATION, THE OATH THAT THEY TOOK TO THE CONSTITUTION, THAT THEY WERE DOING ANYTHING UNETHICAL OR IMMORAL OR ILLEGAL, NOT EVEN THAT THEY WERE NOT FURTHERING LEGAL ARGUMENTS OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

SIMPLY, HER WORDS WERE THEY DESPISE DONALD TRUMP, AND WE WILL ROOT THEM OUT AND WE WILL FIND THEM AND THEY WILL NOT HAVE A JOB.

THIS IS --I HATE TO OVERUSE THE WORD EXTRAORDINARY, BUT IT IS EXTRAORDINARY.

IT IS BASICALLY SAYING IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRESIDENT PERSONALLY OR YOU DON'T AGREE WITH HIS VIEWS, YOU NEED TO BE ROOTED OUT AND FIRED.

AND YOU KNOW, THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DEPARTMENT IS BUILT ON.

SO, HERE IS SOMEBODY SAYING IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS PRESIDENT, SHE USED A STRONGER WORD, DESPISE, WHICH I'M NOT SURE WHAT SHE BASED THAT ON, THIS WAS A COMPLETELY BASELESS STATEMENT, BUT IF YOU DESPISE US, YOU NEED TO BE OUT.

THAT IS A LOYALTY TEST, HARI.

>> MAYOR McCORD, THE FORMER ACTING GENERAL AT THE DIRECTOR OF THE INSTITUTE FOR CONSTITUTIONAL ADVOCACY AND DETECTION UNDER GEORGETOWN LAW, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> AND FINALLY, EVERY MARCH A BIT GREENER AS PEOPLE DON THE COLOR TO CELEBRATE ST. PATRICK'S DAY.

ST. PATRICK IS OF COURSE THE PATRON SAINT OF IRELAND, WHERE THE EARLIEST PARADE THERE HAPPENED AT 6:00 A.M.

IN THE TOWN.

THE DRUM BAND LEADS THE PARADE.

THIS PREDAWN TRADITION DATES BACK TO THE LAND OF WAR OF THE 1870S, WHEN BRITISH AUTHORITIES BANNED GATHERINGS DURING THE DAY.

>>> AND THAT DOES IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

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