Amanpour and Company

>>> IMMIGRATION PLAGUES EVERY WORLD LEADER AND PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP WAS NO EXCEPTION. FOLLOWING PRESIDENT OBAMA WHO WAS KNOWN AS DEPORTER IN CHIEF FOR AWHILE, TRUMP ACTUALLY CAMPAIGNED ON HOSTILITY TOWARDS MIGRANTS. TO UNDERSTAND THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S MOTIVATIONS, POLITZER PRIZE WINNING JOURNALIST MAGGIE HABERMAN CHRONICLES TRUMP'S LIFE IN HER NEW BOOK "CONFIDENCE MAN" AND DISCUSSES HER LIFE AND LIFE POST PRESIDENCY. >> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AND MAGGIE HABERMAN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. >> CONGRATULATIONS. YOUR BOOK COMES OUT THIS WEEK AND IT'S ALREADY MAKING A BIG SPLASH. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT INTERESTS ME IS YOUR LONG STANDING RELATIONSHIP WITH DONALD TRUMP. "THE NEW YORK POST" COVERING THINGS IN THE 1990s HE ONCE CALLED YOU HIS PSYCHIATRIST. TELL ME ABOUT WHY HE GIVES YOU SO MANY INTERVIEWS WHEN YOU'VE BEEN SUCH A STRONG AND TOUGH REPORTER ABOUT HIM. >> DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T EXPERIENCE PRESS COVERAGE LIKE OTHER PRESS OR HUMAN DOES. I COVER HIM AS I HAVE ANY OTHER SUBJECT OVER A VERY LONG PERIOD OF TIME AND YES, HE DID HAVE THIS LINE IN OUR THIRD INTERVIEW FOR THIS BOOK I'M LIKE HIS PSYCHIATRIST. HE TREATS EVERYONE LIKE THEIR HIS PSYCHIATRIST. I DOESN'T THINK THIS IS SPECIFIC TO ME AND MEANT TO FLATTER. HE'S SO CRAVING ATTENTION AND SO DESIRING OF MEDIA COVERAGE AND HOLDING THE MEDIA'S GAZE THAT HE DOES NOT EXPERIENCE COVERAGE OTHER POLITICIANS WOULD CONSIDER NEGATIVE OR UNFLATTERING. IT DOESN'T AFFECT HIM LIKE IT WOULD SOMEBODY ELSE. HE KEEPS COMING BACK TO PEOPLE. PART OF HIS FASCINATION, WITH ME, MOST OF IT IS ABOUT "THE NEW YORK TIMES". HE'S OBSESSED WITH THE PAPER. >> YOU WENT DOWN TO MAR-A-LAGO, BEDMINSTER. WHAT'S IT LIKE WHEN YOU GO INTO HIS PRESENCE AND HAVE TO INTERVIEW HIM? >> THE FIRST TIME I SAW HIM WAS IN MARCH OF 2021 AND HE WAS IN SALES MODE. HE WAS CHARMING. HE WAS ENGAGING. REMEMBER, WALTER THIS WAS JUST OTHER TWO MONTHS AFTER THE JANUARY 6th RIOT AT THE CAPITOL AND HE WAS TRYING TO UNDO THAT STAIN ON HIS LEGACY AND UNDER PINNINGS OF DEMOCRACY IN THIS COUNTRY. WHEN I SAW HIM AGAIN A FEW WEEKS LATER, HE WAS NOT IN A GOOD MOOD FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR SBE VIEW BUT IT CAME OUT. HE WAS CRANKY AND COMPLAINING AGAIN ABOUT 2020 IN A WAY HE HADN'T BEEN IN THE PREVIOUS INTERVIEW AND HE WAS CLEARLY GOING BACKWARDS IN HIS FIXATION. BY THE THIRD TIME I SAW HIM, HE SEEMED HAPPY TO BE ENGAGING WITH A JOURNALIST FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME. I FELT LIKE IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANYBODY AND HE WAS HAPPY TO BE TALKING. >> YOU ASK HIM ALMOST OUT OF THE BLUE, DID YOU TAKE DOCUMENTS? THIS IS BEFORE THE BIG REVELATIONS HE HAD DOCUMENTS STASHED. WHAT WAS HE THINKING? >> IT WAS AN INTERESTING MOMENT. I ASKED ON A LARK WHETHER HE TOOK DOCUMENTS BECAUSE HE WAS OBSESSED WITH THINGS LIKE LETTERS FROM KIM JONG-UN AND OTHER WORLD LEADERS. HIS FIRST ANSWER TO MY QUESTION, WHICH WAS DID YOU TAKE MOMENTO DOCUMENTS, HE SAID NOTHING OF GREAT URGENCY NO. THEN HE SEEMED TO WANT TO BRAG AND LEANED IN AND SAID, YOU KNOW, WE HAD THE LETTERS, THE KJU LETTERS. I SAID YOU GOT TO TAKE THOSE WITH YOU? HE KEPT TALKING AND I SAID WOW AND HE CLEARLY REGISTERED MY SURPRISE AND SAID NO, NO, THOSE ARE IN THE ARCHIVES BUT WE HAVE GREAT THINGS. SO HE WENT FROM QUICK DENIAL IMMEDIATELY TO SEEMINGLY WANT TO BRAG AND WHEN HE SAW MY REACTION PULLING BACK. >> ONE OF THE RULES FROM BIOGRAPHERS OF STRONG MEN IS THAT IT'S ALL ABOUT DAD. TO WHAT EXTENT IS THAT TRUE OF DONALD TRUMP? >> DONALD TRUMP IS NO EXCEPTION TO THAT BIOGRAPHY RULE. SO MUCH OF HIS PROBLEMS AND ISSUES BEGIN AND END WITH HIS FATHER FRED TRUMP WHO HE ADMIRED AND RESENTED AND FEARED AND APPRECIATED. ALL OF THOSE EMOTIONS BUT FRED TRUMP WAS KNOWN AS A PARTICULARLY AGGRESSIVE UNDERMINING FATHER. IVANA TRUMP ONCE DESCRIBED HIM AS BRUTAL AND SHE HAD TO TAKE A STAND AGAINST THAT FATHER IN THAT MARRIAGE AND FAMILY AND I THINK THAT UNDERMINING TRUMP WAS, HOW TOUGH HE WAS ON HIM IN PART HAS DRIVEN THIS LIFELONG NEED OR DONALD TRUMP TO HAVE A PROTECTOR. HE'S SINGULARLY FOCUSED ON PEOPLE PROTECTING HIM AND FIGHTING FOR HIM. HE SPENT THE ENTIRE PRESIDENCY LOOKING FOR ANOTHER ROY CONE. >> YOU TALK ABOUT THE FUNERAL IN THE BOOK. THE FUNERAL OF FRED TRUMP AND IT'S SO ODD BECAUSE TRUMP CAN'T HELP TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF AND RELATING TO HIMSELF. EVEN GIULIANI SITTING THERE IS SAYING HOW WEIRD THIS IS. TELL ME ABOUT THAT. >> >> THERE IS IN DONALD TRUMP LURE FOR PEOPLE AROUND HIM OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME PEOPLE WHO ATTEND THAT FUNERAL OR PEOPLE THAT HEARD ABOUT IT LATER, THE FUNERAL WAS A SEMINOLE MOMENT BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP GOT UP AND TALKED ABOUT HIMSELF. HE TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW THINGS HAVE BEEN GOING SO WELL FOR HIM AND HE HAD BEEN READING A STORY HOW WELL HE WAS DOING OR SOMETHING POSITIVE ABOUT HIMSELF WHEN HE LEARNED HIS FATHER PASSED AND HOW TOUGH THIS WAS ON HIM. IT WAS JUST NOT JUST THAT HE WAS IN COMPETITION WITH HIS FATHER BUT HIS FATHER'S PASSING WAS ONLY THROUGH THE LENS OF HIMSELF AND IT WAS SO DISTORTIVE PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH WERE STUNNED AND GIULIANI COULD BE HEARD UTTERING AN EXPLETIVE IN SHOCK BY PEOPLE IN NEARBY PEWS. >> TELL ME ABOUT IVANKA AND JARED. FIRST OF ALL, WHAT WAS TRUMP'S OPINION OF THEM IN THE WHITE HOUSE? THERE WAS SOMETHING I READ IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT HIM WANTING TO GET RID OF THEM, HIS OWN DAUGHTER. >> PART OF THE CONCERN TRUMP HAD WAS IN 2017 WHEN THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION, THE SPECIAL COUNSEL INVESTIGATION INTO POSSIBLE CONSPIRACY BETWEEN RUSSIANS AND THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN WAS REALLY HEATING UP. JARED KUSHNER WAS GETTING A LOT OF UNFAVORABLE ATTENTION. GETS NEGATIVE HEADLINES AND THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT HAVING JARED LEAVE. THERE WAS NO CHANCE JARED WAS GOING TO LEAVE AND IVANKA TRUMP WOULD STAY SO THIS BECAME A DISCUSSION HOW THEY WOULD GO AND TRUMP WOULD COMPLAIN TO OTHER PEOPLE PRIVATELY SHE HAD TAKEN ON A LOT OF NEGATIVE ATTENTION FOR IT. HE EVENTUALLY CAME TO SEE JOHN KELLY, THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF AND DON McGAHN HAS VEHICLES TO DO WHAT HE DIDN'T WANT TO DO, WHICH WAS TO GET RID OF THEM. AND AT ONE POINT THERE WAS A TWEET DRAFTED AND JOHN KELLY STOPPED IT SAYING YOU CAN'T DO THIS THIS WAY. YOU HAVE TO TALK TO THEM. AND THAT CONVERSATION DOESN'T APPEAR TO HAVE HAPPENED. >> IN OUR BOOK IS IVANKA TRUMP A GOOD LOOKING BIBLE. TRUMP DIDN'T SEEM TO HAVE A BIBLE AND WHEN HE WALKS ACROSS THE SQUARE TO ST. JOHN'S CHURCH DURING THAT PERIOD HE'S HOLDING THE BIBLE, HE CAN'T CITE IT CORRECTLY. TELL ME ABOUT THAT GENERAL MILLEY AND OTHERS IN THAT INCIDENT. >> THAT INCIDENT WAS JUNE 1st, 2020 BECAME A SEMINOLE MOMENT IN THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY IN THAT FINAL YEAR. IT REALLY HELPED DEFINE MUCH OF WHAT HAPPENED AFTER IN TERMS OF TRUMP'S RELATIONSHIP TO THE MILITARY AND RELATIONSHIP TO THE MILITARY LEADERS AND THE WAY THAT HE WAS PERCEIVED BY THE ELECTRET AND HIS RELATIONSHIP TO FORCE SO THAT WAS THE DAY THERE WAS PROTESTS THAT HAD BECOME AWARE, THE FRIDAY NIGHT BEFORE THAT AND THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE POLICE MURDER OF AN UNARMED BLACK MAN NAMED GEORGE FLOYD IN MINNESOTA. THERE WAS A DECISION MADE, A SUGGEST BY IVANKA THAT TRUMP SHOULD WALK ACROSS LAFAYETTE SQUARE TO ST. JOHN'S CHURCH WHERE THE BASEMENT HAD BEEN SET ON FIRE THE NIGHT BEFORE. IT NOT CLEAR WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO BUT SHE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD VISUAL. SOMEONE SUGGESTED TO TAKE A BIBLE AND READ FROM SOME SCRIPT TOUR SO A HUNT WAS PUT ON FOR A BIBLE. SOMEONE SAID IT SHOULD BE A PRETTY BIBLE. LOOK WAS IMPORTANT AND TRUMP CORRALLED OFFICIALS. MANY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING UNTIL IT WAS TOO LATE, PARTICULARLY MARK MILLEY AND MARK ESPE THE DEFENSE SECRETARY AND MILLEY RECOGNIZING THIS IS GOING SOUTH UTTERS A CURSE WORD TO AN AIDE AND DEPORTS BUT EVERYBODY ELSE IS CAUGHT UP IN THE WARM AND TRUMP HAS THEM POSE FOR A PHOTO OP AND HOLDS IT UP LIKE A TROPHY. AND I THINK UPSIDE DOWN AND IN ORDER FOR THAT PHOTO OP TO TAKE PLACE AND OFFICIALS HAVE INSISTED THERE WAS NO CAUSATION TO THIS BUT PRIOR TO TRUMP WALKING ACROSS THE PARK, PROTESTERS WERE PUSHED BACK VERY AGGRESSIVELY AND THE IMAGES ON TV WERE VERY DISSTRESSING. >> YOU SPOKE WITH MORE THAN 250 AIDES AND ADVISORS OF TRUMP. WHAT PORTRAIT DO THEY PAINT OF HIM? I THINK YOU REPORT SOME CALLOPHISTICATED PARROT. HIS CHIEF OF STAFF CALLED HIM AS A FACTIOUS RIGHT? >> ONE THING THAT IS DIFFICULT ABOUT DONALD TRUMP IS HOW HE COMPARTMENTALIZES DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS. THE PUBLIC PERSONA IS THERE BUT THOSE WHO FEEL INVESTED CHOOSE ONLY TO SEE THE POSITIVE. THE PARROT LINE IS WHAT THEY USED IN THE CAMPAIGN BECAUSE HE WOULD TAKE SOMETHING HE HEARD AND HE WOULD ADD A LITTLE GLOSS TO IT OR A LITTLE SOMETHING ELSE AND REPACKAGE IT AS IF IT WAS HIS OWN BUT WITHOUT CHECKING, WITHOUT DOING ANY SORT OF STRESS TESTING OF IT. IN TERMS OF KELLY, TRUMP TOLD STAFF KELLY WAS HAVING A STAFF ISSUE. HE SAID TRUMP WOULD CALL AND ASK OPINIONS. I THINK KELLY BELIEVED AND KELLY DEEPLY CARES ABOUT PUBLIC SERVICE, BELIEVED THIS WAS GOING TO BE A MANAGEABLE SITUATION WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE AND HE CLEARLY CAME TO SEE BY THE END OF 2019 SUCH A THING DID NOT EXIST. >> YOU COVERED TRUMP FOR A LONG TIME. WHAT SURPRISED YOU MOST THAT'S IN THIS BOOK THAT COMES OUT THIS WEEK? >> I STILL COME BACK TO THE FACT, WALTER, WHEN I TURNED MY ATTENTION TO THE BOOK IN A REAL WAY AFTER HIS SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL THAT ENDED IN EARLY 2021 I THINK FEBRUARY THAT I LEARNED HE WAS TELLING PEOPLE HE WASN'T GOING TO LEAVE. >> HE WASN'T GOING TO LEAVE THE WHITE HOUSE EVEN ON INAUGURATION DAY. >> I WONDER HAD THE RIOT AT THE CAPITOL NOT HAPPENED, WHAT THE FOLLOWING TWO WEEKS WOULD HAVE LOOKED LIKE. IT REMAINS TO ME THE PEACE I CAN'T LEAVE BECAUSE IT WAS CLEAR HE WAS TAKING IT IN IN A VERY DANGEROUS WAY AND WHAT SO HAPPENED WITH HIS AIDES, A BUNCH OF THEM TRIED TO IGNORE HIS COMMENTS HOPING HE WOULD DROP IT, HOPING HE WOULDN'T PULL THEM IN FURTHER BUT IT WAS CLEAR EARLY ON THIS WOULD SPIRAL TO A BAD PLACE FAST AND IT DID. >> ONE THING ABOUT YOUR BOOK WHEN WOODWARD AND BERNSTEIN DID BOOKS LIKE THIS, WHY DO YOU HOLD THINGS FROM THE BOOK WHEN YOU SHOULD HAVE PRINTED IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES"? >> BOOKS TAKE TIME. I WANTED THIS TO BE A COMPLETE PICTURE, A MORE COPLICATED PICTURE AND THAT REQUIRES REVISITING EVENTS THAT HAPPENED AND REQUIRES TALKING TO SOURCES AGAIN. THERE ARE ALSO PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY DIFFERENT THINGS FOR A BOOK THAN A DAILY NEWS STORY. I REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY ASKING AWHILE AGO BEFORE MY BOOK, ASKING AN OFFICIAL WHO I KNEW SPOKE FOR BOOKS, WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS? YOU WOULDN'T TELL ME THIS. WHY WOULD YOU SAY IT FOR A BOOK AND NOT A NEWS STORY? THE PERSON SAID BECAUSE THERE IS NO IMMEDIATE TO IT. IT'S COMING OUT IN THE DISTANCE. I DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT. I FOUND THAT TO BE VERY TRUE HOW A LOT OF PEOPLE VIEW THIS. IF I HAVE INFORMATION THAT IS CONFIRMED AND REPORTABLE, MY GOAL IS TO GET IT IN PRINT AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE. BUT BOOKS TAKE TIME. >> MITCH McCONNELL IS SOMEBODY IN THE NEWS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE TRUMP JUST THIS VERY WEEK HAS DONE A SCATHING ATTACK ON MITCH McCONNELL. PUT THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE MITCH McCONNELL RELATIONSHIP YOU HAVE IN THE BOOK AND WHAT IS GOING ON THIS WEEK. >> A RELATIONSHIP THAT'S A MARRIAGE OF CONVENIENCE FOR A LONG TIME THAT ENDED WHEN DONALD TRUMP REFUSED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR JANUARY 6th AND McCONNELL DELIVERED A SPEECH AFTER THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL WHICH McCONNELL DID NOT VOTE IN SUPPORT OF CONVICTING HIM BUT DID EXCORIATE HIM FOR HELPING TO CREATE THE EVENTS THAT HATCHENED AT THE CAPITOL THAT RESULTED IN DEATHS, THE RELATIONSHIP HAS BEEN OVER SINCE THEN. McCONNELL IS A USEFUL FOIL FOR TRUMP. HE THINKS IT EXCITES HIS BASE. HE KNOWS IT WILL GET ATTENTION, WALTER, IF HE WRITES RACIST THINGS ON HIS SOCIAL MEDIA WEBSITE AND IT HAS AND EXPERIENCES THINGS THE WAY OTHER PEOPLE DO SO HE HAS NO PROBLEM SAYING SOMETHING ABOUT THE CONDEMNATION. HE CARES ABOUT GETTING IN THE HEADLINES. >> WELL LET ME READ WHAT TRUMP PUT ON SOCIAL MEDIA, HIS OWN SOCIAL MEDIA SITE THIS WEEK ABOUT MITCH McCONNELL BECAUSE IF YOU UNPACK IT AS I'M SURE YOU'RE BETTER ABLE TO DO THAN ANYBODY, IT IS SO REVEALING OF DONALD TRUMP WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT HOW IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM. HE SAID IS McCONNELL APPROVING OF THE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DEMOCRAT SPONSORED BILLS WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF NEGOTIATION BECAUSE McCONNELL HATES DONALD J. TRUMP? THAT'S TRUMP REFERRING TO HIMSELF IN THE THIRD PERSON AND SAYING IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM. >> YES, AND IN HIS MIND IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM AND EVERYTHING IS UP OR DOWN ON HIMSELF AND MATTERS OF TERMS HOW IT RELATES TO HIM. I DON'T TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK BUT ONE OF MY MEMORIES OF COVERING HIM THAT WAS SO VIVID AND THIS RELATES TO KUSHNER AND CHRIS CHRISTIE IS I WAS INTERVIEWING TRUMP IN THE OVAL OFFICE WITH COLLEAGUES IN 2019 AND CHRIS CHRISTIE WAS VERY CRITICAL OF JARED KUSHNER AND I ASKED TRUMP ABOUT IT AND YOUR SON-IN-LAW GOT REALLY ATTACKED IN THIS BOOK. HE ESSENTIALLY SAID CHRISTIE SAID NICE THINGS ABOUT ME. I SAID NOT ABOUT YOUR FAMILY. DID YOU SEE WHAT HE SAID ABOUT ME? THAT'S ULTIMATELY ALL IT COMES BACK TO. >> WELL, I KNOW IT HARD TO TELL BUT GO THROUGH TRUMP'S MIND ON WHETHER HE MIGHT RUN AGAIN. >> I THINK HE HAS BACKED HIMSELF INTO A CORNER WHERE HE HAS TO RUN AGAIN. I THINK THAT GIVEN ALL THE INVESTIGATIONS HE'S FACING, GIVEN THE FACT HE LOSES THE ABILITY TO FUND RAISE, TO INSTANTLY BE IN THE NEWS THE WAY HE IS NOW, AND LOSE ATTENTION HE DOESN'T HAVE TO RUN. I THINK HIS HEARD IS IN IT. MAYBE THAT WILL CHANGE BUT HE'S NOT ENTRANCED. >> MAGGIE HABERMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> THANK YOU.