Amanpour and Company

>>> GOOD EVENING, EVERYONE.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

I AM JOINED BY COLUMBIA IS FORMER PRISON NEGOTIATOR THAT WAS IN THE RESTAURANT STRUCK BY MOSCOW.

VIOLENT PROTESTS SWEEP THROUGH FRANCE AFTER POLICE SHOOT AND KILL A 17-YEAR-OLD.

THE LATEST FROM PARIS.

>>> FROM RADICAL TO UNIFIER.

THE FORGOTTEN LEGACY OF AMERICA'S 200 DAY PRESIDENT, JAMES GARFIELD.

>>> AFTER A LIFETIME OF GUARDING AMERICA'S SECRETS, BEHIND THE SCENES OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

>>> THEY TOLD ME WHEN I WENT TO CAMBRIDGE TO GET A DEGREE.

ONLY HUMANS ARE CAPABLE OF PROBLEM SOLVING, ONLY HUMANS HAVE EMOTIONS.

>> THE DISCOVERIES OF JANE GOODALL.

>> MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND., SUE AND EDWARD WALKING CHAIM THE THIRD.

JIM OUTWARD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

BERNHARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT AND NOT MISS WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AND MUTUAL OF AMERICA WE BELIEVE THAT TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

ARE WE SEEING THE BEGINNINGS OF A RUSSIAN PURGE?

ONE WEEK AFTER THE FAILED REBELLION, UKRAINIANS OFFICIALS SAY THAT THEY WERE GOING TO ASSASSINATE THE GROUP'S LEADER.

RUMORS ARE SWIRLING ABOUT THE LOCATION OF THE MOSCOW GENERAL AS DOCUMENTS SHOW THAT HE WAS A VIP MEMBER.

A BREAK IN RUSSIAN UNITY.

IT HAS NOT SLOWED THE WAR MACHINE.

TODAY THE REGION SUFFERED RUSSIAN SHELLING.

THE COUNTRY MOURNS THOSE LOST AFTER A BLAST AT A PIZZA RESTAURANT THAT KILLED 12 PEOPLE INCLUDING THREE TEENAGE GIRLS.

JOINED NOW BY SOMEONE WHO WAS AT THAT RESTAURANT.

HE WAS IN UKRAINE AS PART OF HIS CAMPAIGN TO STRENGTHEN LATIN AMERICAN SOLIDARITY.

HE JOINS ME NOW FROM BRUSSELS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

FIRST OF ALL, HOW ARE YOU FEELING PHYSICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY FOLLOWING TUESDAY'S HORRIFIC BLAST?

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THIS INVITATION.

I AM PHYSICALLY FINE.

I WAS HIT HARD ON MY RIGHT SIDE BY A FALLING BEAM.

I HAVE SOME TROUBLE WALKING.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMPARISON WITH WHAT SOME PEOPLE AROUND ME SUFFERED WHEN WE ARE GETTING THE MOUNTING DEATH TOLL.

TWO TWINS DIED.

IMAGINE THE SUFFERING OF THE MOTHER.

IT IS UNBELIEVABLE THE RUSSIAN BRUTALITY.

>> IT IS HORRIBLE.

WE HAVE BEEN COVERING THE HUMAN COST OF THIS WAR SINCE IT BEGAN.

WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THOSE TWINS AND THEIR FAMILY.

GRIEVING AS THEY TRY TO BURY THEM AMIDST THE WAR.

YOU WERE THERE WITH TWO COLLEAGUES AND A UKRAINIAN WRITER WHO WAS IN CRITICAL CONDITION.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HOW SHE IS DOING?

>> VICTORIA IS THE ONLY THING I THINK ABOUT.

SHE WAS SITTING RIGHT DIRECTLY TO MY LEFT.

WHEN THE MISSILE STRUCK, I HAD LOWERED MY HEAD BY COINCIDENCE.

SHE WAS SITTING UPRIGHT.

SHE GOT HIT, I DID NOT.

I SPENT ALL OF MY TIME TRYING TO HELP LOOK AFTER HER WITH PARAMEDICS WAITING FOR THE AMBULANCE TO COME.

OUT OF RESPECT FOR THE FAMILY, WE NEED TO WAIT.

THEY WILL INFORM THE PUBLIC HOW SHE IS.

>> EVERYONE ON SOCIAL MEDIA HAS BEEN SENDING HER AND HER FAMILY THEIR DEEPEST WELL WISHES AND THOUGHTS AS SHE CONTINUES TO BE IN CRITICAL CONDITION.

WE SAW PICTURES THERE RECENTLY.

COLUMBIA'S PRESIDENT IN RESPONSE TO THIS HORRIFIC ATTACK AND STRIKE SAID THIS OVER THE WEEKEND.

RUSSIA HAS ATTACKED THREE DEFENSELESS COLUMBIA CITIZENS.

COLUMBIA'S AMBASSADOR WAS INVITED FOR A MEETING WITH THE FOREIGN MINISTRY TO DISCUSS THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE WAR.

I WANT TO READ TO YOU A BIT OF WHAT THE READOUT WAS FROM THE RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY.

WE DREW THE AMBASSADORS ATTENTION TO THE URGENT NEED THAT COLOMBIAN CITIZENS REFRAIN FROM VISITING TERRITORIES IN THE WAR ZONE.

THIS WAS A STRIKE THAT THEY VIEWED WAS LEGAL AND FOLLOWED THEIR PROTOCOLS OF WAR.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> BY COINCIDENCE I KNOW A BIT ABOUT THIS.

15 YEARS AGO I WAS THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE IN COLUMBIA.

ONE OF MY MAIN RESPONSIBILITIES WAS INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW.

I HELPED COWRITE THE ON FORCE IS HAMBURG.

I KNOW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS.

WHAT THE RUSSIANS ARE DOING IS NOT JUST BREAKING THE RULES OF WAR.

THEY ARE CONDUCTING A POLICY OF TERROR AGAINST CIVILIANS THAT THE WORLD HAS NOT SEEN FOR A LONG TIME.

IT IS NOT A MILITARY OPERATION.

IT IS THE TARGETED USE OF MILITARY MIGHT BUY ONE OF THE LARGEST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.

ON TOP OF THAT, A COUNTRY THAT IS A MEMBER OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL AND AS SUCH SHOULD BE SAFEGUARDING INTERNATIONAL PEACE AND SECURITY.

THAT COUNTRY IS TARGETING CIVILIANS.

DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

THIS IS WHAT WE WAKE UP TO.

THESE ARE NOT PEOPLE WHO DIED INCIDENTALLY.

THEY ARE TARGETED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

NEAR THE FRONT, FAR FROM THE FRONT.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY SCANDALOUS.

THE WORLD, SOCIETIES ARE LARGE NEED TO RAISE THEIR VOICE IN PROTEST.

>> WE HAVE IMAGES OF THE CIVILIANS THAT WERE MURDERED AND INJURED HERE.

AS FAMILY AND FRIENDS WERE ENJOYING A NIGHT OUT AT A BUSY PIZZA RESTAURANT IN A VERY COMMERCIAL AREA THERE.

THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS IN RUSSIA SAYING BASICALLY, YOU WERE AT THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME.

HOW IS THE WORLD -- I WILL GET TO THIS IN A MOMENT.

SPECIFICALLY LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, COUNTRIES IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH, COLUMBIA, WHERE BEEN ARGUING SINCE THIS WAR BEGAN THAT THE BEST WAY TO END IT IS TO GO TO THE TABLE FOR PEACE NEGOTIATION AS OPPOSED TO PROVIDING ANY SORT OF AID.

THAT HAS NOT GOTTEN ANYONE CLOSER TO THE WAR ENDING.

WHAT IS THE MESSAGE THAT THIS RECENT ATTACK SENDS TO THOSE COUNTRIES?

>> LET ME JUST SAY ONE WORD ABOUT WHAT YOU MENTIONED IN THE BEGINNING.

THE RUSSIAN STATEMENT IS OUTRAGEOUS.

A PIZZERIA IS A PROTECTED CIVILIAN OBJECT.

THERE WERE FAMILIES AND PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF HAVING DINNER THERE.

THIS IS THE PLACE WHERE EVERYONE GOES.

CALLING THAT A MILITARY OBJECTIVE IS COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS.

AS FAR AS LATIN AMERICA IS CONCERNED, THERE IS NOT A VIEW ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

DIFFERENT VIEWS IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT WHAT WE SEE WITH OUR CAMPAIGN THAT HAS MOBILIZED SOME OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS IN LATIN AMERICA WITH MUSICIANS WHO HAVE RAISED THEIR VOICE WHEN IT COMES TO THIS INVASION.

MOST LATIN AMERICANS HAVE COMMON SENSE AND UNDERSTAND THAT TO INVADE YOUR NEIGHBOR IS THAT, AND INVASION.

LATIN AMERICA IS STRONGLY AGAINST THIS.

SOME GOVERNMENTS THAT MIGHT HAVE SEEMED A LUKE WARM I COME AROUND TO A MORE REALISTIC VIEW OF WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON.

INCLUDING MY OWN GOVERNMENT.

I VALUE THE WORDS OF OUR PRESIDENT WHEN HE CAME OUT CONDEMNING WHAT THEY DID TO US.

THEY VIOLATED THE PROTOCOLS OF WAR.

THAT IS WHAT COLUMBIA NEEDS TO DO.

I THANK THEM FOR THAT.

>> IT IS INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE EXAMPLES AND WILL LEAD TO LATIN AMERICAN GOVERNMENTS TURNING AROUND IN THEIR VIEWS ON THE WAR.

I WANT TO PLAY WHAT YOUR FORMER PRESIDENT, OLD BOSS SAID WHEN ASKED RECENTLY ON CNN ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

TO END THIS WAR AND THE ROLE THAT COUNTRIES LIKE COLUMBIA CAN PLAY.

>> WHY AM I PAYING MORE FOR FOOD AND ELECTRICITY FOR A WAR THAT IS NOT MY WAR.

WE TELL THEM, LISTEN, WE HAVE TO ESTABLISH A PRECEDENT.

WE CANNOT ALLOW ANY COUNTRY TO INVADE ANOTHER COUNTRY.

WHAT HAPPENS IF BRAZIL INVADES COLOMBIA?

THEY LAUGHED.

>> IS NOT AN ACCURATE CHARACTERIZATION THAT YOU'VE UNC AROUND YOU AMONG THE POPULATION IN COLUMBIA AND NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES?

>> NO, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT.

I THINK ON THIS ONE, MY FORMER BOSS IS WRONG.

I WILL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

VERY RECENTLY FOR OUR CAMPAIGN, WE WERE INTERVIEWING THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF URUGUAY.

A VERY DISTINGUISHED FIGURE AND A REAL DEMOCRAT.

HE WAS MAKING A VERY SIMPLE AND FUNDAMENTAL POINT.

FOR TWO CENTURIES, MY COUNTRY URUGUAY HAS BEEN ALMOST DEFENSELESS NEXT TO BRAZIL AND ARGENTINA.

IS THAT PIECE.

WHY IS THAT?

WE ALL RESPECT INTERNATIONAL LAW.

WE RESPECT EACH OTHER'S SOVEREIGNTY.

THIS PROBLEM IN UKRAINE THAT IS VERY FAR AWAY IS ACTUALLY VERY CLOSE TO US.

IT IS OUR PROTECTION THAT IS AT STAKE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT THIS, IF RUSSIA GETS ITS WAY, WE ARE DOWN TO THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE.

THE WEEK HAVE TO LOOK FOR SHELTER UNDER THE MIGHTY.

THAT IS A WORLD WE DO NOT WANT TO LIVE IN.

>> IT IS A FULL GLOBAL DISRUPTION.

YOU WERE THERE FOR YOUR INITIATIVE WHICH MEANS HANG IN THERE, UKRAINE.

HE WILL CONTINUE TO PURSUE THIS MISSION ALONG WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES.

IN THE MEANTIME, I HOPE FOR A SPEEDY RECOVERY FOR YOUR COLLEAGUES.

THANK YOU FOR THE EFFORTS THAT YOU ARE MAKING TO BRING THIS WAR TO AN END.

BE SAFE, BE WELL.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR LET ME ENCOURAGE YOU ALL, THE AUDIENCE, RAISE YOUR VOICE TO THE UKRAINIANS TO TELL THE RUSSIANS THEY MUST STOP KILLING CIVILIANS.

YOU CAN DO IT THROUGH OUR ACCOUNT ON INSTAGRAM.

OR ANY MEDIA.

WE NEED TO UNITE WITH ONE SINGLE VOICE.

RUSSIA, YOU MUST STOP THIS NOW.

>> SERGIO, THANK YOU.

>>> FROM RUSSIA WE TURN TO FRANCE.

CRISIS TALKS AND CALLING FOR CALM.

LARGE-SCALE EVENTS HAVE BEEN POSTPONED.

THIS AFTER THE POLICE KILLING OF A TEENAGE BOY AT A TRAFFIC STOP IN THE OUTSKIRTS OF PARIS.

A QUESTION ABOUT RACISM AND POLICE BRUTALITY.

HUNDREDS HAVE BEEN INJURED AS DEMONSTRATORS CLASH WITH POLICE.

WE HAVE MORE ON THIS.

>> THURSDAY NIGHT THE UNDERPRIVILEGED SUBURBS ARE IN FLAMES.

ELITE COPS IN THE EPICENTER OF THE VIOLENCE AND ANGER OVER THE KILLING OF A YOUNG TEEN GOING THROUGH BARRICADES OF BURNING VEHICLES.

THE RING OF FIRE ENGULFING A BUS STATION.

12 BUSES ON FIRE.

WITH DAYBREAK, THE EXTENT OF THE LOSS IS BECOMING CLEARER.

26 BUSES AND A TRAM DESTROYED IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD ALONE ACCORDING TO A LOCAL OFFICIAL.

TOTAL COST, $11.7 MILLION.

THE TRANSPORT MINISTER CAME TO SEE THE DAMAGE FOR HIMSELF.

>> WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO END THE VIOLENCE?

>> WE CANNOT ALLOW FOR ANY AMBIGUITY.

WE NEED TO PROTECT OUR PUBLIC SERVANTS.

IT IS IN THE INTEREST OF THOSE THAT ARE EXPRESSING IT TODAY TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC SERVANT.

>> LOCAL RESIDENTS ARE WORRIED ABOUT AN ESCALATION.

I HAVE HEARD THAT SATURDAY WILL BE WORSE.

THE BUSES THAT ARE BURNED THERE AND THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE HERE USE THEM.

THAT DOES NO FAVORS FOR ANYONE AND IT IS NOT JUST HERE IN PARIS.

THE PROTESTS ARE SPREADING.

IN THE NORTH, THE WEST, IN THE SOUTHWEST AND IN THE SOUTH.

THE CONTAGION OF THE ANGER IS RIPPLING OUT.

BY LATE MORNING OFFICIALS SAY THAT 1900 CARS ARE SET ON FIRE.

OVER 500 BUILDINGS BURNED.

34 TOWN HALLS AND 24 SCHOOLS.

IN THE PAST 24 HOURS.

GOVERNMENT OFFICES TORCHED.

ABOVE THE MEDITERRANEAN PORT CITY HUGE PLUMES OF SMOKE RISING.

THE OLD HISTORIC LIBRARY IS SET ON FIRE.

FRANCE'S PRESIDENT CUT SHORT A TRIP TO BELGIUM CALLING FOR A CRISIS CABINET MEETING.

LARGE PUBLIC GATHERINGS ARE BANNED.

THE VIOLENCE MUST STOP.

>> WE ALL CONDEMN THIS UNJUSTIFIABLE VIOLENCE THAT HAS NO LONGER ANY LEGITIMACY.

ONE THIRD OF THOSE DETAINED ARE YOUNG, VERY YOUNG.

IT IS A RESPONSIBILITY OF THEIR PARENTS TO KEEP THEM AT HOME.

>> HIS MOTHER THAT LED THE PEACEFUL PROTEST ON THURSDAY SAID THAT SHE IS NOT ANGRY AT ALL POLICE.

ONLY THE ONE WHO SHOT HER SON.

HER SON'S FUNERAL IS PLANNED FOR SATURDAY.

EXPECTED TO FUEL THE ONGOING BACKLASH.

>> JOINING US FROM THE SUBURB OUTSIDE OF PARIS.

WE SAW WHAT IS TRANCE BEARING THE LAST 24 HOURS.

HOW IS LAW ENFORCEMENT PREPARING FOR WHAT IS HAPPENING THIS WEEKEND?

>> THERE ARE A COUPLE THINGS THEY ARE DOING.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE BUSES BEHIND ME, IT SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO THAT.

THE BUSES AND TRAMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE SHUTDOWN AT 9:00 P.M.

THIS EVENING.

THE POLICE ARE GOING TO STEP UP THE LEVEL OF ARMORED VEHICLES THEY WILL BRING INTO PLAY TO TRY AND CONTROL THE SITUATION.

IN PART, THE POLICE WILL HAVE HEAVIER AND STRONGER TOOLS THAT THERE DOES ALSO.

THOSE AT THE OFFICE WERE ASKED WHY DO NOT GO TO A STATE OF EMERGENCY LIKE YOU DID BACK IN 2005?

WHEN THERE WAS A BIG OUTBREAK OF VIOLENCE THEN.

THE TROUBLES RAN FOR NINE DAYS BEFORE WE DECLARED THE STATE OF EMERGENCY.

WHAT WE WANT TO DO RIGHT NOW IS SET THINGS UP SLOWLY IF WE NEED TO.

NOT RAMP THEM UP TOO FAST.

JUST TAKE A GRADUATED APPROACH AND HOPE THAT THEY CAN TAPER OFF.

I THINK THIS IS AN IDEA TO TRY AND NOT ANGER PEOPLE FURTHER.

IT IS NOT CLEAR IF THAT WILL WORK RIGHT NOW.

>> WE WILL BE WATCHING CLOSELY.

THANK YOU FOR THAT REPORTING.

>>> WE TURN TO THE POLARIZATION THAT SENDS PEOPLE TO THE STREETS.

WE LIVE IN A TIME WHEN THE POLITICAL DIVIDE IS SO STARK IT IS NOT DIVIDING THE LEFT FROM THE RIGHT, PEOPLE WITHIN THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

IT IS PARTICULARLY ACUTE IN THE TWO-PARTY SYSTEM IN THE UNITED STATES.

PRESIDENT JAMES GARFIELD FACED AMERICA AND EVEN THOUGH FACTIONALISM TOOK HIS LIFE, HE MANAGED TO LEAVE BEHIND KOLMAR POLITICS.

AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY TOLD IN A NEW BOOK.

IT'S AUTHOR CW GOODYEAR JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

JAMES GARFIELD HAD ONE OF THE SHORTEST TENURES IN U.S. HISTORY.

THE FOUR LOST PRESIDENTS THAT SERVED UNEVENTFULLY AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO WRITE ABOUT HIM?

>> I ENDED UP FINDING HIM INDIRECTLY.

I WAS VERY INTERESTED ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO IN FINDING A PERIOD OF AMERICAN HISTORY WHEN THE CONDITIONS WERE NOT EXACTLY LIKE OUR OWN, SOMEWHAT MOLAR.

IN TERMS OF POLITICAL, SOCIAL POLARIZATION.

I WAS DRAWN TO RECONSTRUCTION IN THE GILDED AGE.

AND THROUGHOUT THAT TIME IN MY RESEARCH I FOUND THE SAME PERSON LURKING IN THE BACKGROUND OF EVERY MAJOR EVENT.

FROM 1863 UNTIL 1881.

WHAT WAS MORE INTERESTING WAS THAT EVERYONE IN HIS TIME WAS SAYING NICE THINGS ABOUT HIM DESPITE THEIR OWN POLITICS.

THAT STRUCK ME AS A VERY INTERESTING COMBINATION.

THE DEEPER I DUG INTO HIS LIFE, THE MORE COMPELLED I WAS TO MAKE THE MOST OF THIS BIOGRAPHICAL SUBJECT.

>> IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY SHORT LIFE THAT HE DID LIVE IN A LOG CABIN.

ALL THE WAY TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

HE WAS THE YOUNGEST APPOINTED GENERAL IN THE U.S. ARMY AT THE TIME AND SERVED IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

AS YOU SAID, HE WAS LIKED BY EVERYONE UNIVERSALLY.

HE WAS A DECENT MAN.

TELL US MORE ABOUT HIS INCREDIBLE JOURNEY.

>> HE WAS DESCRIBED BEFORE HE WON THE PRESIDENCY, ONE OF THE MOST IMPRESSIVE AMERICANS OF ALL TIME.

RANKING GARFIELD ABOVE ABRAHAM LINCOLN AS ONE OF THE MOST ACCOMPLISHED AMERICANS IN OUR NATION.

LAST PRESIDENT BART BORN IN A LOG CABIN.

IN BETWEEN, YOU HAVE THIS REMARKABLE AMERICAN DREAM STYLE OF A LIFE.

RAISED BY A SINGLE MOTHER IN TOUGH POVERTY ON THE OHIO FRONTIER.

BETWEEN THEN AND HIS WHITE HOUSE ASCENSION HE WAS A COLLEGE PRESIDENT, STATE SENATOR, ABOLITIONIST PREACHER, THE YOUNGEST BRIGADIER IN THE ARMY LIKE YOU DESCRIBED, THE SECOND YOUNGEST CONGRESSMAN IN THE COUNTRY.

HE BECAME THAT AS WELL.

HE FOUNDED THE FIRST FEDERAL DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

A RADICAL REPUBLICAN AND WAS MORE PROGRESSIVE THAN LINCOLN ON THE SOCIAL AND RACIAL ISSUES OF THE TIME.

HE WAS A PHENOMENAL INTELLECT WHICH MAKES HIM VERY FUN TO WRITE ABOUT.

A SUPREME COURT ATTORNEY.

HE AUTHORED THE ORIGINAL -- THIS WAS ALL BEFORE HE WAS ASSASSINATED.

>> I WAS GOING TO ADD THAT HE WAS ALSO A MATHEMATICIAN AS WELL.

FROM HIS WRITINGS AND FROM YOUR RESEARCH, HE WAS RELUCTANT FOR THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND.

WHY?

>> I'M SO GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP.

BY 1880 HE HAD ENDURED FOUR ADMINISTRATIONS WHICH HAD ENDED QUITE POORLY.

HE SAW NOTHING IN THE PRESIDENCY THAT WOULD ALLOW HIM TO BE A PRODUCTIVE STATE MEN.

HE HAD A HERE BE DRAGONS VIEW OF WHAT IT MEANT FOR HIM PERSONALLY.

HE WAS AFRAID OF DARING TO THINK HE COULD BE PRESIDENT ONE DAY.

HE HAD SEEN IN HIS CONGRESSIONAL CAREER AROUND WASHINGTON THE IDEA THAT IF A POLITICIAN GETS THE IDEA IN THEIR HEAD THAT THEY MIGHT BE PRESIDENT ONE DAY, IT WOULD LEAD THEM INTO BEHAVIOR THAT WOULD RUIN THEIR POLITICAL CAREER.

MANY MENTORS AND FRIENDS SUCCUMBED TO THE PRESIDENTIAL FEVER IN WASHINGTON.

IT WAS THE DEATH OF THEM.

HE VOWED THAT HE WOULD NEVER SUCCUMB TO THE PRESIDENTIAL FEVER.

HE WOULD NEVER DARE THINK THAT THE PRESIDENCY WAS AHEAD OF HIM.

THIS ENSURED THAT HE WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT.

>> WE ARE LOOKING AT IMAGES OF HIM AND HIS WIFE.

ONE OF THE FEW RELATIONSHIPS THAT I WOULD SAY HE STRUGGLED WITH.

DESPITE HIS TRAJECTORY AND POLITICS.

YOU GO TO GREAT LENGTH IN THE BOOK TO TALK ABOUT THE DYNAMICS OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS WIFE.

TALK ABOUT THE SUBTITLE HERE FROM RADICAL TO UNIFIER.

HE WAS AN ABOLITIONIST, HE QUESTIONS LINCOLN'S ULTIMATE INTENT AND VIEW.

WHEN HE GOT INTO HIGHER OFFICE, COMPROMISE WAS THE NAME OF THE GAME.

IT WAS ALL ABOUT UNIFYING.

WAS THAT A DIFFICULT JOURNEY FOR HIM TO MAKE PERSONALLY?

>> WAS DIFFICULT IN THE SENSE THAT HE FOUND IT AGONIZING TO WATCH HIS IDEOLOGY AND PRINCIPLES TAKE ROOT IN REALITY.

HE JOINED THE UNION ARMY BECAUSE HE WANTED TO BE PART OF THE LIBERATING FORCE GOING INTO THE SOUTH TO FREE THE SLAVES AND IS STILL ON THEM EQUAL RIGHTS.

BELIEVING IN EQUALITY BETWEEN THE RACES BUT THE REDISTRIBUTION OF PLANTATION LAND IN THE SOUTH.

THE EXECUTION OF CONFEDERATES, YOU FAST FORWARD 17 YEARS AND HE IS WATCHED FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

THE FAILURE OF A LOT OF THOSE POLICIES AND HIS ATTITUDE HAD SHIFTED FROM THIS RADICAL VIEW TO BUILD A RIGHTEOUS REPUBLIC.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT RACIAL RELATIONS IN AMERICA THAT TIME IS THE SOLUTION OF EVERYTHING.

WITH WISDOM AND JUSTICE AT WORK.

THAT IS NOT AN ENTIRELY POSITIVE MESSAGE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS COMPELLING ABOUT THE STORY TO ME, IT ILLUSTRATES THE POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES OF HAVING A PERSON IN POWER IN WASHINGTON.

IT IS NOT ALWAYS SUNSHINE.

>> MIGHT'VE BEEN A PRACTICAL DECISION YOU MADE IN TERMS OF COMPROMISE.

IT WAS STINGING FOR HIM TO HEAR PEOPLE LIKE FRENCH LICK DOUGLAS THAT HE LACKED A MORAL BACKBONE.

HE IS ELECTED PRESIDENT AND 200 DAYS LATER HE IS FATALLY SHOT BY ANOTHER REPUBLICAN.

EXPLAIN THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THAT.

>> HE WAS SHOT HERE IN WASHINGTON NOT FAR FROM WHERE I AM SPEAKING TO YOU NOW.

NOMINATED FOR THE PRESIDENCY DESPITE NOT WANTING TO.

PICKED OFF THE CONVENTION FLOOR BECAUSE HIS PARTY WAS SO BADLY FACTIONALIZED WHO WERE SEEN AS NOT REAL REPUBLICANS.

AND THE INDEPENDENT PERFORMANCE LAST.

ALL THE CONDIT CANDIDATES COULD NOT GET A MAJORITY SUPPORT.

HE WAS ELECTED TO BE THE UNIFIER.

HE ENDED UP FAILING AND HE AGGRAVATED ONE OF THE FACTIONS OF HIS PARTY.

A SUPPORTER OF THE PARTY THAT WAS EDUCATED DECIDED TO STOCK AND SHOOT HIM HERE IN D.C.

HE DID NOT DIE IMMEDIATELY, HE DIED OF INFECTION.

HIS AGONY WAS PROLONGED OVER MONTHS.

>> AS SO MANY DID BEING LOCKED LOOKED AFTER BY DOCTORS THAT DO NOT FOLLOW THE STANDARD PROTOCOLS THAT WE USE FOR HYGIENE TODAY.

>> IT IS A GOOD STORY ABOUT WHY WE SHOULD WASH OUR HANDS.

>> IT IS ALL ABOUT WASHING YOUR HANDS.

HERE IS A LIFE CUT SHORT.

A LEGACY CUT SHORT AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS WE MAY NEVER KNOW.

WHAT YOU THINK, FROM YOUR RESEARCH, COULD'VE BEEN SOME OF IT IS HIS LONGER-LASTING LEGACIES IF HE HAD SERVED A FULL TERM, EVEN TWO.

>> HE WOULD OF ACCOMPLISHED MORE GOALS ON HIS AGENDA.

HE NEEDED TO CORRECT RACIAL INJUSTICES AND ENDORSED THE IDEA OF UNIVERSAL PUBLIC EDUCATION IN AMERICA AND THE IMPORTANCE TO ENSURING WE HAVE A HEALTHY AND SAFE FUTURE REPUBLIC.

HE WANTED TO CLEAN UP GOVERNMENT AND INSTITUTE REFORMS ON HOW THEY CAN HOLD OFFICE AND OTHER THINGS THAT ARE RELATIVE TODAY.

HE WOULD'VE ACCOMPLISHED MINOR VICTORIES.

THIS URGE TO NOT REMEMBER THE REALITY OF HIS POLITICS AT THAT TIME.

THE REACTION TO HIS DEATH WAS NOT UNLIKE THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION.

BUILT INTO THIS MAN THAT HE WAS NOT IN AMERICAN POPULAR MEMORY.

THEY LOOK AT HIS POSITIONS AND IMAGINE THAT HE IS THIS LOST PROGRESSIVE CHAMPION.

BY THAT POINT IN HIS LIFE HE HAD DECIDED THAT POLITICS WAS THE ART OF THE POSSIBLE IN AMERICA.

>> THE FINAL FEW SECONDS THAT WE HAVE HERE, A THROUGH LINE FROM HIS LEGACY AND HIS VIEWS ON THE COUNTRY AND THE REFORMS THAT NEEDED TO BE MADE, HIS CONCERNS ABOUT THE CIVIL WAR BUT THE AFTERMATH AND HOW AFRICAN-AMERICANS WOULD CONTINUE TO BE TREATED HERE IN THIS COUNTRY, WITH WHERE WE ARE TODAY, A DAY AFTER THE SIGNIFICANT DECISION REGARDING THE SUPREME COURT DECISION ON EDUCATION.

>> HE BELIEVED IN PROGRESSIVE POLITICS AND THE NEED FOR PRAGMATISM IN POLITICS.

HE BELIEVED IN THE STRENGTH OF THE INSTITUTION.

THE SUPREME COURT WAS A MAJOR OBSTACLE.

THIS SITUATION, YOU WOULD SEE PARALLELS WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY, HE MAINTAINED A GREAT OPTIMISM.

WHAT IS VERY INTERESTING AND ENCOURAGING TO ME, DESPITE BEING THIS VERY NITTY-GRITTY AND COMPLEX OPERATOR IN POLITICS DURING THE GILDED AGE.

HE HAD A BELIEF THAT ONE DAY AMERICAN WOULD BE A TRUE JOST SOCIETY FOR ALL AMERICANS.

HIS ROLE IN ENSURING AND DID NOT MAKE THAT STAGE DURING HIS LIFE.

>> WE ARE LOOKING AT THIS IMAGE AS WE CLOSE OUT THIS CONVERSATION, HIS LOG CABIN WHERE HE WAS BORN IN HIS EARLY YEARS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

>> MY PLEASURE, GLAD YOU ARE ENJOYING IT.

>>> OUR NEXT GUEST IS SHOWING HIS LIFE OF SECRETS.

SERVED AS THE UNDERSECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

WRITTEN A MEMOIR GOING BEHIND THE SCENES OF SOME OF THE MOST COVERT OPERATIONS.

JOINING TO DISCUSS HIS CAREER.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> A PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.

>> EXACTLY 50 YEARS AGO THIS MONTH YOU ENLISTED IN THE SPECIAL FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES.

HE ROSE UP THROUGH THE RANKS OF THE CIA TO BECOME THE TOP CIVILIAN DEFENSE OFFICER.

AFTER 50 YEARS OF KEEPING SECRETS DID YOU DECIDE TO WRITE A BOOK?

>> THAT IS A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

ENOUGH HAD BECOME PUBLICLY AVAILABLE THAT I THOUGHT I COULD TELL THE STORY.

WITH THE HELP OF REVIEWERS FROM THE CIA AND OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, I WAS ABLE TO DO THAT.

THERE WERE THREE REASONS, PRINCIPALLY.

A DUTY TO HISTORY THAT I PARTICIPATED IN SOME PRETTY HISTORIC EVENTS.

IT WAS THE LARGEST AND MOST SUCCESSFUL COVERT ACTION IN CIA HISTORY.

CAMPAIGNS AGAINST AL QAEDA TO DISRUPT, DISMANTLE AND ULTIMATELY DEFEAT THEM.

PRIMARILY IN THE AFGHANISTAN BORDER REGION.

AND THE RAID THAT BROUGHT JUSTICE TO OSAMA BIN LADEN.

THE SECOND REASON WAS REALLY TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THE WORK THAT CIA OFFICERS AND SPECIAL OPERATORS DO ON THEIR BEHALF AND THE THIRD WAS MY DUTY TO FUTURE OPERATORS AND STRATEGISTS TO PASS ON LESSONS AND HELP THEM PREVAIL.

>> I WAS STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT YOU JOINED THE SPECIAL FORCES THE SUMMER OF 1973 WHICH WAS EXACTLY WHEN THE U.S. IS WITHDRAWING IN A MESSY WAY FROM VIETNAM AND THE WHOLE COUNTRY HAS BEEN TORN APART BY VIETNAM.

WHAT CAUSED YOU TO WANT TO DO THAT.

WHAT LESSONS DID YOU TAKE FROM VIETNAM?

>> EARLIER ON I WANTED TO BE A PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL OR FOOTBALL PLAYER, IF THAT IS NOT IN THE CARDS, WHAT WILL I DO IN MY LIFE?

I SAW TOO MANY JAMES BOND MOVIES.

I SETTLED ON BECOMING A CIA OFFICER.

THE SPECIAL FORCES WAS SOMETHING I COULD GO INTO RIGHT AWAY, COMPLETE MY COLLEGE DEGREE, BECOME AN OFFICER AND THEN A CIA OFFICER.

IT ALL WORKED OUT THAT WAY.

YOU KNOW, I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING FOR MY COUNTRY WHERE INDIVIDUALS COULD REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

THE SPECIAL FORCES AND THE CIA.

SEE GREAT ADVENTURES.

I HAD READ -- AND OTHERS, THAT IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO.

A HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER PROVIDED A COPY OF THE NEW YORK TIMES IN FRONT OF ME MY SENIOR YEAR OF HIGH SCHOOL AND IT HAD A STORY ON THE MILITARY OPERATIONS DURING THE VIETNAM WAR.

I HAD NO IDEA WHY HE THOUGHT THAT.

I WAS DAYDREAMING ABOUT THROWING TOUCHDOWN PASSES, THIS IS SOMETHING I WANT TO DO.

THEN WHEN I WENT INTO THE SPECIAL FORCES, I WAS BLESSED BY HAVING ALL OF THESE VIETNAM VETERANS AS MENTORS TEACHING ME COMBAT TACTICS AND A RANGE OF THINGS THAT HELPED ME HAD BEEN ADVANCING UP THE RANKS.

THOSE WHO HAD ROSE TO FORD'S STAR RANKS, ERIC OLSON, STAN McCHRYSTAL, ET CETERA.

IT PRODUCED A PRETTY GOOD GROUP OF FOLKS.

>> ONE OF THE GREAT SUCCESSES IS THE AFGHAN OPERATION THAT DRIVES THE RUSSIANS OUT.

IT CAUSES SOME PROBLEMS.

HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THE STRATEGY AND WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENTLY?

>> THE STRATEGY WAS PARTIALLY A RESULT OF EVENTS.

CONGRESSMAN CHARLIE WILSON HAD INCREASED THE BUDGET RIGHT AS I TOOK THE JOB.

WE COULD DO MORE THAN IMPOSE COSTS ON THE SOVIETS.

WE GOT TO WORK ON WHAT WE MIGHT DO.

AS I WAS WORKING ON MY PLANS AND THINKING WE COULD USE EVEN MORE RESOURCES WHICH CONGRESS PROVIDED, PRESIDENT REAGAN SIGNED THE NATIONAL SECURITY DECISION ELECTIVE WHICH CHANGED THE OBJECTIVE TO DRIVING THEM OUT.

THAT GAVE MY NEW STRATEGY A LOT OF LEEWAY.

I HAVE THIS WORD OF MY SENIORS AT THE CIA AND SECRETARY OF STATES AND DEFENSE, AND PRESIDENT REAGAN.

WHAT I WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY, IF I COULD, WE DISENGAGE FROM AFGHANISTAN AFTER THE SOVIETS WITHDREW AND THE COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT COLLAPSED, WE ALSO WITHDREW FROM THE REGION IN 1990.

THAT CAUSED A NUMBER OF PROBLEMS.

AFGHANISTAN WENT INTO A CIVIL WAR, THE TALIBAN AND WENT INTO POWER.

THE FIRST THING WOULD BE NOT TO DISENGAGE FROM THE REGION.

THAT WAS TOUGH FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, WE HAD A LOT OF SUCCESS IN EUROPE.

>> IF WE HAD NOT HAVE DISENGAGE, WHAT WOULD WE HAVE DONE TO MAKE THINGS DIFFERENT?

WE SPENT $2.3 TRILLION TRYING TO DO IT.

AND WE WERE NOT ABLE TO.

>> WE MIGHT'VE PREVENTED IF WE HAD NOT DISENGAGED THE TALIBAN FROM TAKING OVER.

WHAT ARE AMBITION SHOULD'VE BEEN, I TAKE YOUR POINT ON NATIONBUILDING AND MAYBE THAT WAS A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

AFGHANISTAN REALLY DESCENDED INTO -- AND THAT CREATED THE PATH FOR THE TALIBAN.

>> LET ME GO ON THAT NATIONBUILDING THING.

I DO NOT WANT TO PUSH ON ANY ANSWERS HERE.

IS THIS SOMETHING THAT THE COVERT ACTION LEADERS LIKE YOURSELF, THE CIA AND THE U.S.

CANNOT DO, SHOULD WE TRY TO DO NATIONBUILDING?

>> SOME OF IT, WE CAN TRY.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE IN MY LINE OF WORK NECESSARILY DO, IT IS A JOB FOR THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND OTHER ELEMENTS OF GOVERNMENT.

IT HAS ITS ROLES, WHEN YOU SET YOUR OBJECTIVES TOO HIGH.

WHEN WE ARE NARROWING ON THE COUNTERTERRORISM INTEREST, WHAT WE LEARNED AFTER 9/11 WAS TO NOT GIVE PROOF LIKE AL QAEDA ANY SANCTUARY.

IF I COULD JUST WIND THE CLOCK BACK TO 1998 AFTER THE EMBASSY BOMBINGS KNOWING WHAT HAPPENED ON 9/11, I WOULD'VE RECOMMENDED MORE DECISIVE ACTION THEN WE TOOK.

SOME MISSILE STRIKES AGAINST AL QAEDA AND SOME BACKING OF LOCAL ELEMENTS, THAT IS IT.

WE WOULD'VE DONE SOMETHING MORE MUSCULAR AFTER 9/11 AS WE DID.

>> WHAT LESSONS COMING OUT OF AFGHANISTAN APPLY TO THE RUSSIANS TRYING TO BE IN UKRAINE IN US TRYING TO HELP THE UKRAINIANS?

>> ONE, WHEN YOU TRY AND OCCUPY A BIG COUNTRY AS THE RUSSIANS DID IN AFGHANISTAN AND UKRAINE AND THE POPULATION IS AGAINST YOU, YOU HAVE YOUR HANDS FULL WHEN YOU HAVE A SMALL HORSE WHICH THE RUSSIANS DID IN BOTH CASES RELATIVE TO THE SIZE OF THE PROBLEM.

IN AFGHANISTAN, THEY WOULD'VE NEEDED FOUR TIMES THE FORCE TO EVEN HAVE A CHANCE OF PACIFYING THE COUNTRY, THEY WOULD'VE TAKEN A LOT OF CASUALTIES.

SAME WITH UKRAINE.

THAT IS WHY THEY ARE HUNKERED DOWN IN SOME REGIONS THEY ARE TRYING TO HOLD.

FOR THE U.S., THE ANSWER IS SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT, WE ARE VERY SUCCESSFUL IN TOPPLING THE GOVERNMENT, NOT VERY SUCCESSFUL WITH WHAT COMES AFTER.

WE DID TRANSITION SECURITY RESPONSIBILITY TO THE AFGHANS.

WE PROVIDED ASSISTANCE THE LAST COUPLE YEARS, ADVISE, AID, AND BACKED UP BY AIRPOWER.

THE QUESTION IS, DO YOU HAVE THE STRATEGIC PATIENTS TO STAY THAT COURSE.

YOU TRANSITION SOON ENOUGH SO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DO NOT GET TIRED OF WAR.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE WILD THING THAT IS HAPPENING IN UKRAINE WITH A MERCENARY ARMY.

IT SEEMS LIKE HE WAS PARTLY AFFILIATED WITH PUTIN FOR A LONG TIME.

THIS DOES NOT RING TRUE TO ME.

WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT?

>> HE WAS CLOSE TO PUTIN FOR A LONG TIME.

SEVERAL COUNTRIES IN AFRICA PROVIDING SECURITY IN EXCHANGE FOR CRITICAL MINERALS, GOLD, AND OTHER THINGS.

IN SYRIA, AND UKRAINE IS ACTUALLY THE SHOCK TROOPS.

HE HAD BEEN PROGRESSIVELY CRITICIZING RUSSIAN MILITARY LEADERSHIP.

THAT THEY WERE NOT DOING ENOUGH.

THERE WAS ALSO THIS REGULATION COMING UP ONE JULY THAT REQUIRED HIS GROUP TO BE TRANSFERRED TO THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE.

HE HAD BEEN MAKING $1 BILLION IN THE LAST YEAR IN THIS OPERATION.

THIS WAS A THREAT TO HIS BUSINESS INTERESTS AND WHATEVER ELSE HE THOUGHT.

SINCE HE HAD GOTTEN AWAY WITH THINGS FOR MONTHS, THIS PROGRESSIVE RHETORIC.

HE THOUGHT HE COULD DO THIS MARCH AND GET THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS REMOVED AND IT DID NOT TURN OUT THAT WAY.

HE TURNED OUT TO BE A LOSER IN THIS.

IT IS ALL TO THE GOOD OF UKRAINIANS, EUROPEANS, AND THE UNITED STATES.

>> HOW DO YOU SEE THE UKRAINIAN SITUATION RESOLVING ITSELF?

>> IT COULD END LIKE KOREA AND OTHER RUSSIAN CONFLICTS WHERE THEY TRY TO HAVE A FROZEN CONFLICT.

THAT IS WHY I THINK WE NEED TO THINK THROUGH GIVING UKRAINIANS WHAT THEY NEED TO WIN AND TAKE BACK MOST IF NOT ALL OF THEIR TERRITORY.

>> YOU MEAN -- AS WELL?

>> THAT IS THE INSTANCE WE NEED TO LOOK AT.

IT IS A LITTLE BIT OF A DIFFERENT KETTLE OF FISH.

AND THEN AFTERWORDS RUSSIA WOULD TRY TO COME BACK AT SOME POINT.

THINGS THEY DO NOT NEED NOW, THEY WILL CERTAINLY NEED TO DETER IN THE FUTURE.

THEY DO ACTUALLY NEED THEM NOW.

IT WOULD HELP.

THEN THERE IS THE REBUILDING ASPECT TO THIS.

IT WILL BE A STAGGERING RECONSTRUCTION EFFORT.

>> WHEN I LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN UKRAINE, PART OF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS THE EARLY 20th CENTURY.

WORLD WAR I ERA TRENCH WARFARE.

IT LOOKS LIKE 21ST-CENTURY WARFARE WITH A LOT OF DRONES, A LOT OF CYBER THINGS LIKE USING SATELLITES IN ORDER TO ASSESS AND SEND MISSILES.

HOW IS WARFARE CHANGING?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE TYPE OF SPECIAL OPERATIONS YOU DID?

>> YOU CAPTURED IT VERY WELL.

IT IS A COMBINATION OF WARFARE OVER THE LAST 100 YEARS.

IT DOES LOOK LIKE WORLD WAR I, THE NEED TO PROVIDE SOCIETAL ORDER AND LEVEL OF HUMAN MISSIONS.

HAVING THE CAPACITY TO PRODUCE THAT.

ONE OF THE FACTORS THAT DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF WORLD WAR I AND WORLD WAR II.

YOU HAVE ALL OF THESE NEW TECHNOLOGIES.

IT IS A LAND WAR.

THERE ARE LOTS OF LESSONS ON LAND COMBAT ABOUT ARTILLERY AND COMBINED ARMS.

THE USE OF DRONES WHICH HAS CHANGED THE BATTLEFIELD.

THE ATTACKS ON THESE POPULATION CENTERS.

ALL CONFLICTS ARE DIFFERENT, DIFFERENT POLITICS, TECHNIQUES, IF WERE WERE A WAR OVER TAIWAN, IT WOULD LOOK VERY DIFFERENT LIKELY.

IT WOULD HAVE SOME ELEMENTS IN COMMON WITH UKRAINE.

POPULAR RESISTANCE TO ANY INVASION.

IT WOULD LIKELY BE MORE MARITIME AND BASE AND CYBER AND MORE HIGH-TECH THAN YOU SEE IN UKRAINE.

YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE LESSONS YOU DRAW.

>> YOU GUARDED AMERICA'S MOST GROSSLY HELD SECRETS ALL THE WAY UP THE RANKS.

WHEN YOU ARE WATCHING WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH DONALD TRUMP IN THOSE DOCUMENTS, YOU HAVE A BETTER SENSE THAN ANYBODY ABOUT WHAT MIGHT BE IN THOSE DOCUMENTS AND WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP THEM SAFE.

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE DAMAGE COULD BE?

>> IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THE DOCUMENTS ARE.

I WAS THE SENIOR INTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL WHEN EDWARD SNOW DID HIS LEAKS.

AND TOOK THINGS WITH HIM AND ENDED UP IN RUSSIA.

WE HAD TO DO A SERIES OF DAMAGE ASSESSMENTS ABOUT THAT AND WHAT WE KNEW HE TOOK AND WHAT THE DAMAGE WAS, WHEN HE MIGHT HAVE TAKEN AND WHAT HE LOOKED AT.

WE COULD NOT BE SURE IF HE TOOK IT OR NOT.

SOME OF IT POSED GRAVE DAMAGE TO THE UNITED STATES.

WITHOUT GETTING INTO THE DETAILS, THE WORST IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

LOTS OF BAD THINGS WERE COMPROMISED BY THAT.

THE TRUMP CASE, WHO SAW THESE DOCUMENTS I SHOULD NOT HAVE SEEN THEM, THAT IS A TARGET FOR THE FOREIGN ESPIONAGE SERVICES, THEY WERE UNGUARDED AND MOVED AROUND A LOT.

I'M SURE THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IS WORKING DILIGENTLY ON ASSESSING THE DAMAGE.

CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES ARE INTERESTED IN HEARING THAT.

IT IS A CONCERN WHENEVER SECRETS ARE SPILLED WITH THE AIRMAN IN MASSACHUSETTS.

>> LET ME READ SOMETHING IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT THE EFFECTIVENESS IN INTELLIGENCE.

WHERE WE MOST MISS THE MARK WAS IN THE ASSESSMENT THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD -- CIA HAD ALSO FAILED TO ASSESS THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE JIHADIST GROUPS THAT CAME FROM IT.

THEY FAILED TO ANTICIPATE THE AGGRESSIVE ACTIONS BETWEEN 2014 AND 2016.

IF I WANT TO ADD TO THAT, THE BROAD SENSE THEY MISSED EVERYTHING IN THE LATE 1980S THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION AND HOW WEAK IT WAS.

AND NOW HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIGURE OUT THE COUNTER CONSENSUS ON IF COVID LEAD FROM A LAB.

HAVING READ YOUR BOOK I WAS IMPRESSED BY ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU DID.

I WORRY ABOUT THE INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENT CAPABILITIES.

>> OUR INTELLIGENCE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD BY FAR IN TERMS OF COLLECTION.

AND IN THE HONESTY OF OUR ANALYSIS.

THEY DO NOT GET IT RIGHT ALL THE TIME.

THEY GET IT RIGHT 70% OF THE TIME, THEY ARE DOING PRETTY WELL.

IT HAS BEEN SAID THAT YOU CAN DIVIDE THE INTELLIGENCE WORLD INTO SECRETS AND MINISTRIES.

THE MORE COMPLICATED THE PROBLEM WHERE THERE IS NOT A SECRET YOU CAN STEAL.

IT BECOMES, NOT A GUESSING GAME, BUT A TOUGHER JUDGMENT.

SOME OF THOSE CASES CERTAINLY FIT INTO THAT.

THE RECENT RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE.

THEY THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE UKRAINE QUICKLY.

THAT IS BASED ON THE ASSESSMENT OF THE CAPABILITIES OF THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES.

YOU CAN BE WRONG ABOUT THAT.

THEY WERE WRONG.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CASES LIKE THAT.

IT IS A TOUGH JOB.

I WAS MORE ON THE COLLECTIONS SIDE.

I AM A LITTLE MORE RELUCTANT TO THROW STONES AT ANALYSTS.

IT IS NOT PROTECTION.

YOU TRY TO TELL IT AS ACCURATELY AS YOU CAN AND YOUR POLICYMAKERS OR COMMANDERS DO WHAT THEY WILL WITH THE INTELLIGENCE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> WALTER, PLEASURE TALKING TO YOU.

>>> FINALLY WE DID GET TO THE ARCHIVES.

JANE GOODALL JOINED BACK IN 2017 TO DISCUSS HER BROWN GROUNDBREAKING WORK THAT CAPTURED IT ALL.

>> IT TAKES ME BACK TO THOSE DAYS MORE THAN ANY OTHER DOCUMENTARY I HAVE SEEN.

I AM RELIVING THOSE DAYS.

THE BEST DAYS OF MY LIFE.

IT IS BECAUSE IT IS NOT CENSORED.

IT IS AS IT WAS.

IT SHOWS THE CONTACT WITH THE CHURCH WHICH TODAY WE KNOW IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD NOT BE DONE.

CHIMPANZEES CAN CATCH OUR DISEASES.

BACK THEN, WE DID NOT KNOW THAT.

I RELIVE THAT MAGIC TIME WHEN CHIMPS HAD BEEN RUNNING AWAY FROM ME, NOT ALLOWING ME TO ACTUALLY PLAY WITH THEM.

>> WE HAVE TO BRING IN THE SINGULAR ACHIEVEMENT OF YOUR DISCOVERY, HOW CLOSE YOU GOT TO THEM.

FOR HOW LONG YOU OBSERVED THEM AND YOU DISCOVERED THAT WE HUMANS WERE NOT UNIQUE IN A CERTAIN ASPECT WHICH IS ABOUT TOOLS.

LET'S LISTEN TO THAT.

>> IT HAD LONG BEEN THOUGHT THAT WE WERE THE ONLY CREATURES ON EARTH THAT USED AND MADE TOOLS.

MAN, THE TOOLMAKER, THAT IS HOW WE WERE DEFINED.

HERE WAS DAVID USING A TOOL.

>> IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE WHAT I HAD SEEN.

A FEW DAYS LATER I WATCHED AS CHIMPS WERE TURNED SLOWLY AND THEY STRIPPED IT OF ITS LEAVES.

THAT WAS THE CRUDE BEGINNING OF TOOLMAKING.

IT HAD NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE.

>> IT IS EXTRAORDINARY WHAT YOU SEE AT THE END THERE.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO DISCOVERED THIS.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT NOW, ALL THESE DECADES LATER, HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL?

>> IT MAKES ME FEEL HOW ARROGANT SCIENCE WAS TO MAINTAIN THAT WE WERE THE ONLY -- THEY TOLD ME WHEN I WENT TO CAMBRIDGE THAT ONLY HUMANS HAD PERSONALITY.

ONLY HUMANS WERE CAPABLE OF PROBLEM SOLVING AND ONLY HUMANS HAD EMOTIONS.

HOW ARROGANT OF US.

>> A VERY YOUNG GIRL THAT CAME IN WAS GIVEN THIS TASK OF OBSERVING THE CHIMPS.

YOU WERE NOT A UNIVERSITY GRADUATE AND YOU COME BACK WITH THIS REVELATION.

HOW DID YOU STICK TO YOUR GUNS.

EXCUSE ME, WERE YOU?

>> THE SCIENTISTS DID.

IN MY LIFE I HAD A VERY SUPPORTIVE MOTHER.

AND I HAD A GREAT TEACHER WHEN I WAS A CHILD WHO TAUGHT ME ABSOLUTELY DONE THESE PROFESSORS AT CAMBRIDGE MIGHT BE VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE BUT THIS TEACHER TAUGHT ME THAT WHEN IT COMES TO PERSONALITY, MIND, AND EMOTION, THEY ARE WRONG.

>> THERE IS A SEGMENT IN THIS FILM THAT WILL MAKE THE HARDEST HEART LEAP.

THE ELDERLY FEMALE DIES EVENTUALLY AND HER SON CANNOT ACCEPT THAT.

TAKE THE STORY FURTHER.

>> HE WAS TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON HER.

EVEN THOUGH HE WAS SIX OR SEVEN YEARS OLD, STILL RIDING ON HER BACK AND SLEEPING IN HER NEST AT NIGHT.

STILL TRYING TO SUCKLE EVEN THOUGH THE MILK HAD DRIED UP.

WHEN SHE DIED, HE COULD NOT COPE.

HE WAS LIKE A CHILD FLOATING INTO A DEEP DEPRESSION HE DID NOT EAT.

HE GOT SICK AND HE DIED.

IT WAS ONE OF THE SADDEST TIMES WATCHING HIM.

I HAD KNOWN HIM SINCE A TINY BABY.

>> IN THIS ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS THE EPA ADMINISTRATOR WHO IS LOOKING TO TURN THE CLOCK BACK.

SCIENTISTS WHO DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE THAT ARE NOT LOOKING TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT THAT YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE PROTECTED.

HOW MUCH OF A MORTAL THREAT OR PLANETARY THREAT WE ARE UNDER RIGHT NOW?

>> A HUGE THREAT.

THE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND CHIMPANZEES IS THAT THE EXPLOSIVE DEVELOPMENT OF OUR INTELLECT.

THE MOST INTELLECTUAL BEING TO EVER WALK THE PLANET IS DESTROYING IT'S ONLY HOME.

>> I WANT TO REWIND THE CLOCK BACK TO THE LATE 50s WHERE YOU WENT TO AFRICA.

TO WALK FOR THE GREAT ANTHROPOLOGIST LOUIS LEAKEY.

HOW DID THAT EVEN HAPPEN?

HOW WERE YOU EMPLOYED WITHOUT A SCIENCE BACKGROUND?

>> WHEN I WAS 10 I READ TARZAN AND FELL IN LOVE.

WRETCHED TARZAN, HE MARRIED JANE.

I WAS REALLY JEALOUS.

THAT IS WHEN I DECIDED I WILL GROW UP AND I WILL LIVE WITH ANIMALS AND I WILL WRITE BOOKS ABOUT THEM.

>> YOU ARE A YOUNG GIRL.

THERE IS AN AMAZING FEATURE WE ARE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW, BEFORE WE WENT ON, YOU SAID THERE YOU HAVE MY LEGS.

YOUR COVER GIRL LEGS.

THERE ARE MY COVER GIRL LEGS.

DID YOU GET A LOT OF THAT FOR YOUR LOOKS AND YOUR LEGS?

>> I.D.'d.

PEOPLE SAY SHE IS ONLY FAMOUS BECAUSE OF HER LEGS.

WE DO NOT NEED TO TAKE ANYTHING SERIOUSLY.

GEOGRAPHIC SENT HIM OUT TO TAKE THE FILM.

IT WAS PROOF THAT I WAS NOT TELLING LIES.

THEY WERE USING TOOLS AND THEY WERE MAKING TOOLS.

THEY WERE DOING ALL THE THINGS THAT I HAD DESCRIBED.

>> HUGO WAS THE WILDLIFE PHOTOGRAPHER AT THE TIME.

YOU FELL IN LOVE.

>> WE FELL IN LOVE.

IT WAS NOT SURPRISING.

HE WAS A GENTLE PERSON.

HE LOVED ANIMALS AND ALWAYS WANTED TO FILM IN THE NATURAL WORLD.

THERE WE WERE TOGETHER.

HE WAS A PERFECTIONIST.

HUGO, LOOK, NO ONE BELIEVES THAT THEY DO THIS.

I CANNOT FILL ME BECAUSE THE EXPOSURE WILL NOT BE RIGHT.

>> WHAT DO YOU HOPE THAT THIS FILM DOES?

>> I HOPE IT WILL INSPIRE A NEW GENERATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND HOW BEAUTIFUL THE NATURAL WORLD IS AND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO SAVE IT.

IF IT IS NECESSARY, LEARN THE SCIENCE.

SO THAT YOU CAN FIGHT THE CLIMATE DENIERS.

>> ON THAT NOTE, JANE GOODALL, KEEP UP THE GOOD FIGHT.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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