Amanpour and Company

EARLIER WE HEARD ABOUT HOW FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS IN LEGAL WOES AND IF HE TRIES TO MOUNT A COMEBACK IN 2024, THE DIVIDED STATE OF THE GOP WILL LOOM LARGE. OUR NEXT GUEST, NEW YORK TIMES CORRESPONDENT JEREMY PETERS EXPLORES THIS, INSURGENCY, HOW REPUBLICANS GOT EVERYTHING THEY EVER WANTED. >> JEREMY PETERS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. "INSURGENCY" WITH THE MOB ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th. WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO START THERE? >> BECAUSE INSURGENCY APPLIES TO THE GALVANIZED EMOTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN DRIVING THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE MODERN REPUBLICAN PARTY. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PARTY DEFINED BY INSURGENCY FROM PAT BUCHANON TO SARAH PALIN TO THE TEA PARTY AND FINALLY TO DONALD TRUMP, WHAT I DON'T THINK I FORE SAW IS THAT THE INSURGENCY WOULD TURN AS VIOLENT AS IT DID THAT DAY, BUT IT SEEMED TO ME THAT THE EVENTS OF JANUARY 6th AND A VERY REVEALING MANIFESTATION OF WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAD DONE BY EMBOLDENING THESE INSURGENT ELEMENTS THAT HAVE ALWAYS DESTABILIZED REPUBLICAN POLITICS. >> EVEN NOW. EVEN AS PEOPLE ARE STILL BEING CHARGED AND PROSECUTED FOR WHAT THEY DID THAT DAY, EVEN AS SO MANY OF THE OFFICERS WHO WERE HURT AND NEARLY KILLED THAT DAY ARE STILL RECOVERING FROM THEIR INJURIES, THERE ARE PEOPLE MINIMIZING IT, SO I'LL ASK YOU NOW, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? WHAT IS THE PHENOMENON THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING HERE BECAUSE YOU TRACE THE ORIGINS OF THIS. YOU TRACED IT THROUGH KEY EPISODES IN WHAT RESULTED IN THAT IN YOUR ANALYSIS, BUT WHAT IS THE PROBLEM THAT YOU WERE -- THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING HERE. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT? >> SO I THINK A LOT OF IT STARTS WITH THE MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION THAT WE'VE SEEN BECOME A COMMON AND ACCEPTED FORM OF THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE ON THE RIGHT, AND YOU KNOW, THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, AND I START TELLING THAT STORY WITH THE OBAMA BIRTHER CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND HOW THAT TRAVELED FROM THE FRINGES OF THE BLOGOSPHERE AND UP THROUGH PEOPLE LIKE JEROME CORSI WHO WROTE BOOKS ABOUT THIS AND SOMEHOW THAT OBAMA WASN'T BORN IN THE UNITED STATES AND HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE WAS A FAKE WAS A CONVERSATION ON THE RIGHT. WHEN FOX NEWS PICKS IT UP, THEN IT'S NOT SOME FRINGY IDEA. IT HAS LEGS, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE CONSPIRACY THEORISTS PUSHING THIS WANTED. THEY WANTED MAINSTREAM CREDIBILITY. SO I DON'T THINK IT'S FAR OUT OF THE REALM OF THEIR REALITY TO THEN START PUTTING OUT UNTRUTHS ABOUT EVERYDAY FACTS, RIGHT? THE WHITEWASHING OF THE HISTORY OF WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th IS ENTIRELY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT THE DIALOGUE ON THE RIGHT HAS BEEN ABOUT VOTER FRAUD, ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT THE COUNTRY IS SLIPPING AWAY FROM CONSERVATIVES FRR FROM WHITE, CHRISTIAN AMERICANS BECAUSE IT'S NO LONGER THE COUNTRY THEY GREW UP IN. THIS NOTION OF TACK OUR COUNTRY BACK STEMMED FROM THE GOLDWATER DAYS, REALLY. THIS WAS A SENTIMENT THAT YOU HEARD AND YOU SAW PRINTED ON BANNERS DURING THE TEA PARTY AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT DONALD TRUMP SAID IN HIS CAMPAIGN SPEECHES AND CONTINUES TO SAY. SO I THINK IT'S THE DENIAL OF REALITY. THE MISINFORMATION COUPLED WITH THIS SENSE THAT THEIR COUNTRY ISN'T THEIRS ANYMORE AND THEY HAVE TO FIGHT TO HOLD ONTO IT, AND THE PEOPLE I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK ARE VERY MUCH FOLKS WE'VE SEEN CONSISTENTLY THROUGHOUT THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY ALWAYS FELT LIKE THEY WERE ONE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AWAY FROM LOSING THEIR PURCHASE ON SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND CULTURAL POWER IN THIS COUNTRY. >> WHAT I HEAR YOU SAYING IS THE REAL ISSUE IS YOU HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE AND DON'T LIKE THE THINGS THAT ARE TRUE. SO IT REALLY HAS TO DO WITH WHAT? WITH IDEAS? WITH IDENTITY? WITH WHAT? I GUESS, WHAT'S YOUR THEORY OF EVERYTHING HERE? IT'S THAT SENTIMENT THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED HAS NEVER HAD A PROMINENT A VOICE AS IT HAS NOW IN DONALD TRUMP. WHEN I INTERVIEWED TRUMP FOR THIS BOOK, ONE OF THE THINGS HE SAID TO ME THAT I THOUGHT WAS FASCINATING IN TERMS OF HIS WORLD VIEW AND HOW HE SEES MEDIA WAS HE SAID -- I BROUGHT UP FOX NEWS AND THEIR CALLING ON ELECTION NIGHT OF ARIZONA WHICH BASICALLY MEANT THAT THE ELECTION WAS OVER FOR DONALD TRUMP, AND HE SAID, WELL, IT TURNS OUT A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO HEAR NEGATIVITY TOWARD ME, AND THEN HE KIND OF DELIGHTED IN THE FACT THAT FOX NEWS HAD TAKEN A REAL HIT IN ITS RATINGS AFTER THE ELECTION BECAUSE WHAT DID IT DO? IT TOLD ITS VIEWERS THE TRUTH. WELL, ITS VIEWERS DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR THAT TRUTH AND TRUMP UNDERSTANDS THAT HE -- IT'S HIS POLITICAL BRAND AND HIS POLITICAL SURVIVAL, HIS STRENGTH AS A LEADER DEPENDS ON NOT JUST PEOPLE BELIEVING THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE, BUT ALSO ON HIS ABILITY TO COMPLETELY BLOCK OUT ANY BAD INFORMATION ABOVE HEM. HE REALLY IS AN ENFORCER OF HIS OWN MESSAGE AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM FROM SEAN HANNITY ON DOWN REALLY ATTACK ANYBODY WHO GOES AGAINST THAT NARRATIVE AND YOU SAW THE CIVIL WAR HAPPENING WITHIN FOX NEWS THAT WAS EMBLEMATIC OF THE STRUGGLE THAT A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES HAD WHO MAYBE THOUGHT TO THEMSELVES, WELL, HE DID LOSE. WE SHOULD MOVE ON, BUT WE'RE UNABLE TO BECAUSE THE POLITICAL COST OF THAT WAS SO STEEP BECAUSE OF TRUMP'S INSISTENCE THAT THEY ACCEPT HIS LIES. >> SO, IN YOUR TELLING OF THE KIND OF THIS MODERN INSURGENCY, WHEN DID IT START? >> I THINK AN INTERESTING WAY TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION IS TO LOOK AT KIND OF THE PSYCHE OF THE MODERN REPUBLICAN VOTER AND GOING BACK TO BARRY GOLDWATER IN 1964, WAS THERE ALWAYS A SENSE THAT WHEN THEY LOST ELECTIONS, SOMETHING WAS OFF. IT WASN'T BECAUSE VOTERS HAD REJECTED THEIR IDEAS OR THEIR LEADERS. IT WAS BECAUSE THE OTHER SIDE HAD DONE SOMETHING THAT WAS NEFARIOUS TO WIN. WHEN GELDWATER LOST AND CONSERVATIVE SOCIETY PRINTED UP BUMPER STICKERS THAT SAID 24 MILLION AMERICANS CAN'T BE WRONG, SO IT WAS ASSERTING THEMSELVES WITH THIS NOTION THAT THEY HAD A LOT OF COMPANY, AND THAT SENTIMENT CARRIES THROUGH TO RICHARD NIXON'S SILENCE MAJORITY AND RONALD REAGAN AND JERRY FALLWELL'S MORAL MAJORITY AND THIS IDEA THAT THEY REPRESENTED THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE. IT WAS ALWAYS CENTRAL TO THE IDENTITY OF THE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE AND THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S BEEN SO HARD FOR THEM TO ACCEPT LOSS AND DEFEAT AND WHY THEY RE-WRITE THAT HISTORY AND CONSISTENTLY HAVE DONE SO. >> I HAVE TO SAY THAT ONE OF THE MOST FASCINATING PEOPLE THAT YOU REPORT ON IS SARAH PALIN. SOMEBODY WHO I -- FROM READING YOUR BOOK HAS NOT GOTTEN NEARLY THE ATTENTION SHE DESERVES BOTH AS A KIND OF AN OBJECT OF THIS INSURGENCY AND AS A PLAYER IN THIS INSURGENCY, AND OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, THE FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE IS IN THE NEWS AT THE MOMENT AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW BECAUSE SHE RECENTLY LOST A LIBEL SUIT AGAINST "THE NEW YORK TIMES." TELL ME ABOUT SARAH PALIN AND WHY SHE IS SUCH A PIVOTAL FIGURE WHO THINK OF HER AS A MOMENTARY CHARACTER ON THE SCENE. >> YES, WE REMEMBER SARAH PALIN FOR THE MORE PROVOCATIVE AND NASTY THINGS THAT SHE SAID ABOUT OBAMA AND SOME OF THE FALSE INFORMATION SHE PUT OUT THERE, REMEMBER THE DEATH PANELS WHICH CLAIMED WERE GOING TO RATION CARE THROUGH THESE BOARDS OF GOVERNMENT PROTOCOLS, AND THIS IS WHAT MADE HER A PRO-TRUMP FIGURE, SOMEONE WHO FELT DISRESPECTED BY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND BY CULTURAL POLITICAL ELITES IN GENERAL. SHE WORE THAT DISDAIN FROM ABOVE ON HER SLEEVE AS A BADGE OF HONOR AND A PROMINENT REPUBLICAN REFERRED TO THE PEOPLE IN HER AREA NEAR WASILLA AS VALLEY TRASH. THIS WAS A NICKNAME GIVEN TO PEOPLE WHEN LIVED WHERE SHE DID IN THE MATSU VALLEY THAT WASN'T AS PROSPEROUS AS OTHER PARTS LIKE ANCHORAGE AND THEY RESENTED IT AND THEY ALSO TURNED IT AROUND TO THE PEOPLE THAT WERE CONDESCENDING TO THEM AND THAT BECAME A PART OF HER POLITICAL BRAND AND THAT BECAME A HUGE PART OF DONALD TRUMP'S BRAND AND THE SAME PEOPLE WHO HATED HIM, WHETHER IT WAS THE LEADERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND CULTURAL ELITES ALSO HATED HIS FOLLOWERS AND HIS FOLLOWERS REALLY IDENTIFIED WITH THAT THINKING, LIKE, LOOK, IF DONALD TRUMP, THIS POWERFUL, RICH DEVELOPER AND TELEVISION STAR CAN BE ATTACKED AND SUBJECT TO THESE SAME FORCES OF DISDAIN, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO US? IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR TRUMP AND SARAH PALIN TO BE HATED BY CERTAIN PEOPLE AS IT WAS TO BE LIKED BY CERTAIN PEOPLE AND SO WHAT YOU END UP WITH IS THESE OUTSIDER FIGURES EVENTUALLY TAKING POWER IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. >> ONE OF THE FASCINATING DETAILS IN YOUR BOOK IS A LOT OF THE LIES IN THE 2008 CAMPAIGN FOR WHICH SARAH PALIN IS, SHE DIDN'T WRITE AND THE McCAIN CAMPAIGN, WHICH IS FASCINATING BECAUSE THEN THE NOMINEE, JOHN McKAINE, THE LATE ARIZONA SENATOR JUST SEEMED SO UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT. HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? >> RIGHT. IT'S DEFINITELY A COMPLICATING ASPECT TO McCAIN'S LEGACY. ULTIMATELY, AS PEOPLE WHO WORKED FOR HIM WHOM I INTERVIEWED FOR THIS BOOK SAID HE BEARS RESPONSIBILITY. HE'S THE ONE WHO CHOSE HER IN A RATHER CAVALIER FASHION AS I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK WITH LANGUAGE THAT I WON'T USE ON THIS PROGRAM, BUT BASICALLY HE SAID, SCREW IT. LET'S GO FOR IT. I LIKE TO ROLL THE DICE. I'M A GAMBLER. SHE'S A GAMBLE. LET'S DO IT. FROM THERE, THOUGH YOU BEGIN TO SEE AS THE TITLE OF THE BOOK IMPLIES, THE INSURGENCY REALLY IS STARTING TO BUBBLE UP AND EVENTUALLY BOIL OVER AND THIS IS THE STORY OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, OF ESTABLISHMENT INSURGENT ELEMENTS, GIVING THEM A SEAT AT THE TABLE AND BRINGING THEM INSIDE THE TENT, IF YOU WILL, INSIDE THE BIG REPUBLICAN TENTS AND ULTIMATELY NOT WANTING TO SHARE POWER WITH THEM AND MAKE THEM PARTNERS, BUT IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT THE INSURGENT ELEMENTS FROM PAT BUCHANON TO SARAH PALIN DIDN'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN BEING FAITHFUL PARTNERS THEMSELVES. THEY THOUGHT, RIGHTFULLY WE BRING THE VOTES AND WE'RE BRINGING YOU FOLKS ELECTED AND WHY AREN'T WE BEING GIVEN A BIGGER ROLE AND THAT WAS SARAH PALIN. THE MISUNDERSTANDING BY JOHN McCAIN'S ADVISERS OF THE POWER SHE HAD OF THE APPEAL THAT SHE HAD WITH HIS VOTERS, SO PEOPLE WHO WOULD BECOME HIS VOTERS AND THEY KNEW THEY WEAPONIZED IT IN A WAY THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD CONTROL BY WRITING THEM THE SPEECHES AND OBAMA IS PALLING AROUND WITH TERRORISTS AND WE DON'T LIKE LEADERS WHO TALK DIFFERENTLY ABOUT FOLKS IN SAN FRANCISCO AS THEY DO IN SCRANTON AND THAT -- THOSE ARE NOT HER WORDS. THEY WERE WORDS WRITTEN BY VERY CLEVER STRATEGISTS WHO KNEW HOW TO ACTIVATE THOSE EMOTIONS OF RESENTMENT IN THE KINDS OF VOTERS THEY KNEW THEY NEEDED TO WIN. >> WHY DO YOU THINK THAT SO MANY PEOPLE WHO SEE THEMSELVES AS KIND OF CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVES WERE WILLING TO TOLERATE THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S BEHAVIOR. LET'S SAY THIS IS TRANSACTIONAL. LET'S SAY THE CONSERVATIVE, THE WHITE CONSERVATIVES GOT THERE AND SUPREME COURT JUSTICES AND THEY GOT THEIR TAX CUTS. WHAT MORE DO THEY NEED? WHY CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THEM OR DO THEY? >> BECAUSE THEIR VOTERS AND DONORS DO. >> I THINK THERE'S AN ELEMENT HERE THAT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH UP FRONT AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I ACTUALLY HEARD FROM EVANGELICAL REPUBLICANS WHO WERE VERY DISILLUSIONED WITH TRUMP, THEY BEGAN TO LIKE HIM AND THE MEANNESS. THE ONE PERSON I INTERVIEWED THE LEADER OF AN EVANGELICAL WOMEN'S GROUP SHE TOLD ME, HE'S A BULLY. WE KNOW THAT, BUT HE'S OUR BULLY, AND I THINK THAT A LOT OF THEM LIKED THE MEAN SPIRITEDNESS OF IT. I DON'T THINK ALL OF THEM DID. I THINK IT MADE A LOT OF THEM CRINGE, BUT THEY WERE WILLING TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY BECAUSE OF THE POLICIES AND THE JUDGES THEY WERE GETTING, BUT A LOT OF THEM DIDN'T MIND LOOKING THE OTHER WAY OR RATHER, DIDN'T NEED TO. THEY LOVED IT, AND THE PEOPLE FORGET, AS I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK THAT THE MOMENT AT FIRST WHEN EVERYBODY DECLARED TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN DEAD AS A DOOR NAIL IN 2015 WHEN HE ATTACKED JOHN McCAIN AS A FAILED WAR HERO OR A PHONY WAR HERO, DONALD TRUMP DID THAT AT AN EVANGELICAL CONFERENCE AND MANY IN THE AUDIENCE LAUGHED. SO THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN AN ELEMENT THAT WANTED -- AN ELEMENT OF THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT THAT REALLY WANTED THEIR OWN, YOU KNOW, MEAN SPIRITED CULTURE WARRIOR AS A LEADER. >> WHERE DOES THE COUNTRY GO FROM HERE? THERE'S A POPULAR SIGN THAT PROGRESSIVES SOMETIMES PUT ON THEIR LAWNS AND THERE'S NO PLANET B, RIGHT? IT'S A REFERENCE TO CLIMATE CHANGE SAYING, LOOK, YOU CAN TRASH THE ENVIRONMENT AND HAVE THE WATER IN THE AIR. WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GO? WHERE IS THE PLANET B WHEN IT COMES TO A POLITICAL SYSTEM AND IT WON'T ACCEPT THE SAME FACTS AND WON'T AGREE ON A CERTAIN SET OF RULES AND WON'T EMBRACE REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRAT SEE AND BELIEVES THAT EVERYTHING IS A FRAUD. WHERE DOES THIS GO? >> AS LONG AS DONALD TRUMP IS THE LEADER OF THE PARTY SHOUTING, NO, DON'T BELIEVE THE RESULTS OF THE LAST ELECTION. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THIS COUNTRY BACK. I DON'T SEE A PEACEFUL RESOLUTION TO ANY OF THIS. I THINK THAT THE LIKELIHOOD OF AN INCREDIBLY NASTY 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN THAT COULD MAKE 2020 LOOK LIKE A DRESS REHEARSAL IS VERY REAL BECAUSE TRUMP IS SO FAR DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE WITH HIS DENIAL AND REALITY OF WHAT REALLY HAS HAPPENED POLITICALLY TO HIM AND HE SEES THIS ABOUT HIM AND HE'S MANAGED TO TRANSFER SOME OF THAT OVER TO HIS VOTERS WHO WOULD THEN SEE HIM AS FIGHTING FOR THEM BECAUSE HE'S GOING TO HELP THEM QUOTE, UNQUOTE, TAKE THEIR COUNTRY BACK, BUT ULTIMATELY BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP SEES HIMSELF AS A VICTIM OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT HE DIDN'T CREATE, I DON'T SEE HOW HE APPROACHES THIS WITH ANY SENSE OF RATIONAL THINKING OR REASON. I THINK IT'S ALL GOING TO BE ABOUT HIS OWN PERSONAL DELUSIONS AND GRIEVANCES. >> JEREMY PETERS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US. >> THANK YOU.