Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AS GAZA'S DEATH TOLL CONTINUES TO CLIMB, WILL THE WAR EXPAND?

I ASK ISRAELI PARLIAMENT GIDEON LEVI.

THEN I DISCUSS THE THREAT OF A REGIONAL CONFLICT WITH THE DIRECTOR OF CHATHAM'S HOUSE THINK TANK.

>>> ALSO AHEAD IS ISRAEL ACTUALLY LISTENING TO ITS STRONGEST ALLIES?

FORMER BRITISH CABINET MINISTER TURNED PODCAST HOST RORY JOINS ME ON THAT AND UKRAINE'S CHANGING POLITICAL LANDSCAPE.

>>> PLUS THE UP CYCLED SELF.

A NEW MEMOIR FROM A GRAMMY WINNING ARTIST.

HE SPEAKS ABOUT MUSIC AND HIS CHILDHOOD DREAM.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

1 IN EVERY 100, THAT IS THE STAGGERING NUMBER OF PEOPLE KILLED IN GAZA OVER THE PAST THREE MONTHS ACCORDING TO PALESTINIAN AUTHORITIES.

THAT'S MORE THAN 23,000 PEOPLE, AND NEARLY TWO-THIRDS OF THEM ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

THAT HUMAN TOLL IS FRONT AND CENTER AS WESTERN OFFICIALS VISIT THE REGION EXPRESSING INCREASING CONCERN ABOUT THE SITUATION.

U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN TODAY HAS BEEN MEETING TOP OFFICIALS IN ISRAEL TO GET THEM TO DO MORE TO PROTECT CIVILIANS, ALLOW HUMANITARIAN AID IN AND TRY TO PREVENT A WIDER WAR THAT MIGHT SPREAD INTO LEBANON, FOR INSTANCE.

GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER HAS VIZZED THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK WHERE SHE CONDEMNED ISRAELI SETTLERS VIOLENCE TOWARDS PALESTINIANS, AND TODAY SHE SPOKE IN CAIRO, EGYPT.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PERMANENT PEACE, THEN IT MUST ABOVE ALL BE ENSURED THROUGH SECURITY.

WE ALWAYS SPOKE ABOUT THAT IN THE PAST.

MY COUNTRY KNOWS WHAT THAT MEANS.

SECURITY GUARANTEES SO THAT VIOLENCE AND TERROR AND IN GERMANY FASCISM CAN NEVER AGAIN BECOME STRONG.

THAT REQUIRES INTERNATIONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

>> BUT IS THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT LISTENING TO ITS STRONGEST ALLIES?

AND WHAT ARE THE LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES OF SUCH DESTRUCTION?

MY FIRST GUEST SAYS THERE IS NO WAY TO EXPLAIN ISRAEL'S CONDUCT IN GAZA.

HE IS GIDEON LEVI, WAS AN ADVISOR TO THE LATE PRIME MINISTER SHIMON PEREZ, THEN LEADER OF ISRAEL'S LABOR PARTY IS NOW A COLUMNIST AND HE'S JOINING US FROM TEL AVIV.

GIDEON LEVI, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

CAN I JUST ASK YOU, YOU KNOW, TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU SAID YOURSELF, THERE IS NO ANSWER FOR THIS CONDUCT.

WHAT DO YOU EXACTLY MEAN BY THAT?

>> LOOK, BY THE TIME WE WILL FINISH THIS INTERVIEW ANOTHER BABY WILL BE KILLED IN GAZA.

BY THE TIME THAT YOU WILL FINISH YOUR SHOW, THERE WILL BE ANOTHER TWO WOMEN KILLED IN GAZA.

HOW LONG CAN THIS LAST?

ISRAEL HAD THE FULL RIGHT TO GO FOR THIS CAMPAIGN, FOR THIS WAR, BUT THERE MUST BE LIMITS.

AND WE CROSSED THEM SO LONG TIME AGO.

BUT ABOVE ALL, ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION WHERE DO WE AIM TO -- WHAT WILL -- WILL IT BE ANY BETTER FOR ISRAEL'S SECURITY IF ANOTHER 20,000 PALESTINIANS WILL BE KILLED IN GAZA, IF ANOTHER HALF A MILLION PEOPLE WILL LOSE THEIR HOMES?

WHAT DOES THIS CONTRIBUTE FOR THE SECURITY OF ISRAEL?

WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THE GOALS ISRAEL HAD DECLAREDRED UNACHIEVABLE OR AT LEAST PARTLY UNACHIEVABLE, AND WE SHOULD CONCENTRATE NOW ABOUT CREATING A NEW REALITY AND NOT KILLING AND KILLING FOR THE PURPOSE OF KILLING.

>> GIDEON, I WANT TO GET INTO THAT IN A MOMENT.

BUT TO ANSWER TO ILLUSTRATE WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOUT MORE BABIES, MORE WOMEN BEING KILLED, THERE IS THE LATEST AND WE HAVE TO SAY GRAPHIC VIDEO THAT'S COMING IN FROM GAZA TODAY RUTTING FROM AIR STRIKES LAST NIGHT.

THE HOSPITAL AT ALOXA THERE IN GAZA SAYS 57 PEOPLE WERE KILLED, NEARLY 70 INJURED, NEARLY TEN OF THOSE WERE CHILDREN THE HOSPITAL SAID.

THE GOVERNMENT KEEPS SAYING THEY'RE DOING THEIR BEST TO AVOID CIVILIAN DEATH.

THE U.S.

KEEPS DOING A SHUTTLE DIPLOMACY WHICH SEEMS PRINCIPALLY AIMED AT MINIMIZING CIVILIAN DEATHS.

NOT ONLY THAT BUT ALSO TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF AN EXPANDED WAR.

BUT IN YOUR MIND HAVING COVERED SO MANY OF THESE ISRAEL-GAZA WARS, WHAT IS THE POINT?

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE THREE MONTHS IN OF THIS, AS YOU PUT IT VERY HEAVY DEATH TOLL?

WHAT IS THE STRATEGIC POINT?

>> I DOUBT VERY MUCH IF THERE IS ONE.

FIRST OF ALL, EVERYONE IS PAYING HIS LIP SERVICE, THE AMERICANS, THE ISRAELIS THEY DO THEIR BEST.

THE AMERICANS ASK GENTLY ISRAEL TO REFRAIN FROM KILLING CIVILIANS, BUT THE OUTCOME IS VERY CLEAR.

IT IS BLOODBATH, AND YOU CANNOT -- YOU CANNOT IGNORE IT.

THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS IT IS ISRAELI MEDIA, BY THE WAY, IF YOU LET ME MAKE A REMARK ABOUT THEM.

BECAUSE THE ISRAELIERIZE THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW WHO ARE NOT EXPOSED AT ALL TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA.

NOTHING -- WE WERE ALWAYS LAUGHING AT THE RUSSIAN TV COVERING THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

OURS IS MUCH WORSE BECAUSE HERE IT IS VOLUNTARILY.

NO ONE DICTATES TO SHOW THE SUFFER AND PUNISHMENT OF GAZA IF ISRAELIS ARE NOT EXPOSED TO IT.

THERE ARE GOALS.

THE PRIME MINISTER HAD DECLARED THEM, NAMELY RELEASING THE HOSTAGES AND CRUSHING HAMAS.

AFTER THREE MONTHS I CAN TELL YOU WE ARE NOT GETTING CLOSER TO BOTH OF THEM.

I THINK ABOUT THE RELEASING THE HOSTAGES WHICH FROM MY POINT OF VIEW MUST BE A FIRST PRIORITY AND THEY DON'T GO TOGETHER.

I THINK HERE WE ARE GOING FARTHER AND FARTHER.

WE'RE MUCH MORE DISTANCE NOW THAN FEW WEEKS AGO FROM RELEASING THE HOSTAGES, AND THIS SHOULD BOTHER ANY PERSON WITH CONSCIENCE.

>> GIDEON, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THAT IS OBVIOUSLY -- WE'VE SEEN THE BIGGEST WISH AND DEMAND FROM THE ISRAELI PEOPLE TO BRING BACK THEIR LOVED ONES WHO ARE STILL HELD HOSTAGE AND UNDER BOMBARDMENT, BY THE WAY, AND UNDER HAMAS CONTROL INSIDE GAZA.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WHEN THERE WAS THE LAST TRUCE, MAINTAINED THAT ONLY ITS TOUGH ACTION BROUGHT THAT TRUCE TO BEAR AND RELEASED MORE THAN A HUNDRED HOSTAGES.

THERE ARE OTHERS WHO SAY, WELL, ACTUALLY IT WAS NEGOTIATIONS WITH HAMAS THROUGH THIRD PARTIES THAT DID THAT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK -- WHAT DO ISRAELI PEOPLE THINK IS THE BEST WAY TO BRING ISRAELI HOSTAGES BACK?

>> IT'S EVEN NOT THE QUESTION WHAT I THINK.

IT'S A QUESTION WHAT IS THE REALITY.

UNTIL NOW ISRAEL HARDLY RELEASED ONE HOSTAGE BY FORCE.

ALL THE HOSTAGES WHO WERE RELEASED WERE RELEASED THROUGHOUT NEGOTIATION.

BUT ISRAEL ALWAYS CHOOSES THE VIOLENT WAY AS THE FIRST PRIORITY NOT ONLY TO RELEASE THE HOSTAGES, BY THE WAY, ALSO TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF GAZA, ALSO THE SOLVE THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE.

IT'S ALWAYS FIRST OF ALL LET'S TRY VIOLENCE AND THEN IF IT FAILS LET'S THINK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

WHY WOULDN'T WE -- AFTER THIS TERRIBLE WAR WHY WOULDN'T WE ONCE AND FOR ALL TRY ANOTHER WAY -- ANOTHER WAY THAT WE NEVER TRIED?

WHY NOT TO START WITH DIPLOMACY?

WHY NOT TO START WITH TALKING AS FIRST PRIORITY AND SHOOTING AS THE LAST PRIORITY?

BUT ISRAEL RIGHT NOW IS VERY FAR OFF IT.

ISRAEL SUPPORTING THIS WAR ALMOST WALL TO WALL ISRAELI PUBLIC OPINION SUPPORTS THIS WAR AND DOES NOT WANT TO SEE ENDING.

AND THIS WAR IT MAKES ME VERY SAD PERSONALLY AS AN ISRAELI.

>> CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT EXPANDING THE WAR BECAUSE THAT ALSO IS A MATTER OF GREAT CONCERN ESPECIALLY TO, YOU KNOW, THE SURROUNDING NATIONS AND TO THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES.

BASICALLY ISRAEL'S STRONGEST ALLIES.

AS YOU VERY WELL KNOW BUT I'LL JUST REMIND EVERYBODY WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING, THE ASSASSINATION OF THE DEPUTY HAMAS LEADER IN BEIRUT THIS PAST WEEK, THE KILLING OF A HEZBOLLAH LOADER IN SOUTH LEBANON, ONE OF WHICH HAS BEEN CLAIMED BY ISRAEL, THAT ONE.

THEN, YOU KNOW, THERE'S BEEN HEZBOLLAH RESPONSE IN TERMS OF TARGETING IMPORTANT ISRAELI TARGETS INSIDE ISRAEL.

AND ALAN PINCUS, WHO YOU VERY WELL KNOW A FELLOW COLUMNIST BUT FELLOW COUNSEL GENERAL IN NEW YORK WROTE THIS.

HE BASICALLY SAID ISRAEL SEEMS RESIGN TODAY THE IDEA, IN OTHER WORDS ACTUALLY WANTING A BIGGER WAR.

SO MUCH SO THAT A "THE WASHINGTON POST" ARTICLE QUOTED U.S. OFFICIALS EXPRESSING ALARM AND ESTIMATING THAT PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS ENCOURAGING ESCALATION AS A KEY TO HIS POLITICAL SURVIVAL AND FURTHER DISTANCING HIMSELF FROM RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE OCTOBER 7th DEBACLE.

YOU KNOW, THAT IS AN INCREDIBLY DAMNING THING FOR AN ACTUAL ISRAELI FORMER GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL TO SAY, THAT ANY COUNTRY WOULD WANT AN EXPANDED WAR.

DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANY TRUTH IN THAT AT ALL?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I CAN ONLY GUESS AND ONLY HOPE THAT THERE IS NO TRUTH IN IT.

I THINK THAT EXPANDING THIS WAR ALSO ON THE NORTHERN FRONT NAMELY AGAINST HEZBOLLAH WILL BE A GAME CHANGER AND WILL CREATE A REALITY THAT ISRAELIS AND ISRAEL NEVER MET BEFORE.

WE SHOULD BE AWARE TO IT.

IT'S VERY NICE TO TALK HERE ABOUT EXPANDING THE WAR, BUT WHAT CAN HAPPEN THEN I THINK IS MUCH BEYOND WE EVER SAW IN ISRAEL, IN TEL AVIV, IN JERUSALEM, IN OTHER PLACES.

LISTEN, I GIVE NETANYAHU MORE CREDIT THAN MOST OF MY COLLEAGUES AND FRIENDS IN THE WAY THAT I DON'T THINK THAT HIS PERSONAL AMBITIONS ARE THE ONLY MOTIVATION WHICH MOTIVATES HIM.

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT.

I'M SURE THAT HIS PERSONAL MOTIVATION IS PART OF HIS CONSIDERATIONS.

I'M SURE THAT FOR HIM PERSONALLY EXPANDING THIS WAR IS THE ONLY OUTLET BEFORE ELECTION RESIGNATION, AND INQUIRY.

BUT TO SAY HE DOES EVERYTHING ONLY TO MAINTAIN AND NOTHING ELSE INTERESTS HIM, THAT'S EVEN TOO MUCH FOR NETANYAHU, I THINK.

I HOPE I'M NOT WRONG.

>> YOU HAVE SPENT A LOT OF YOUR CAREER ESSENTIALLY GOING AGAINST -- I'M GOING TO SAY GOING AGAINST THE TRIBE, AGAINST THE HERD.

YOU'VE BEEN IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK A LOT.

YOU SPEAK LIKE THIS INSIDE ISRAEL AND INTERNATIONALLY ON PROGRAMS LIKE THIS ONE.

IT MUST BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR YOU, NUMBER ONE.

AND WHAT IS THE REACTION TO THE NEWS YOU BRING BACK FROM THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, FOR INSTANCE?

>> IT IS DIFFICULT.

BUT BELIEVE ME IN GAZA RIGHT NOW IT'S SO MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.

IT'S NOT FOR ME TO COMPLAIN NOW WHEN PEOPLE ARE DYING IN GAZA.

I'M REALLY NOT THE ISSUE.

IN THIS WAR IT BECAME EVEN HARDER BECAUSE MY BEST FRIENDS, SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS AND EVEN FAMILY MEMBERS CHANGED THEIR MINDS ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

IT'S UNBELIEVABLE WHAT HAPPENED HERE.

I MEAN EVERYTHING COLLAPSED, ALL THE VALUES THAT PEOPLE BELIEVED IN COLLAPSED ONLY BECAUSE OF THIS BARBARIC ATTACK, WHICH WAS A BARBARIC ATTACK BUT SHOULDN'T CHANGE ANY VALUES.

I WAS REALLY WRESTLING IN THE DARKNESS FOR MANY YEARS.

I'M USED TO IT.

I DON'T THINK I HAVE MUCH INFLUENCE, BUT I KNOW NOTHING BUT TO TELL WHAT I THINK IS MY TRUTH.

AND I DON'T SEE ANY OTHER THING THAT I WOULD LIKE TO BE ACTIVE RATHER THAN TELLING THE STORY OF THE OCCUPATION FOR SO MANY YEARS TO THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO HEAR AND DON'T WANT TO READ AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW.

BUT BY THE END OF THE DAY THE OCCUPATION DEFINES ISRAEL MORE THAN ANY OTHER THING.

THEIR APARTHEID DEFINES THE REGIME OF ISRAEL MORE THAN ANY OTHER THING, AND WE CANNOT CONTINUE WITH THIS BLINDNESS.

ISRAELIS ARE LIVING VERY SELF-CONTENT, HAPPY ABOUT THEIR LIVES, WHICH ARE USUALLY QUITE GOOD, NOT IN TIMES OF WAR OBVIOUSLY.

AND THEY ARE NOT EVEN CURIOUS TO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING HALF AN HOUR AWAY FROM OUR HOMES AND HALF AN HOUR AWAY FROM OUR HOMES EVEN BEFORE THIS HORRIBLE WAR.

THERE IS AN INHUMAN REALITY WHICH MUST COME TO ITS END ONE DAY.

AND AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE WITH THIS BLINDNESS, WE WILL NEVER GET TO ANY GOOD PLACE.

WE ISRAELIS.

>> GIDEON LEVI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

AND NEXT WE ARE GOING TO EXPLORE THE DAY AFTER AND HOW THIS ALL ENDS.

BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

AND OBVIOUSLY WE WANT TO JUST REMIND EVERYBODY WHAT GIDEON JUST SAID.

ACCORDING TO PRESS ACTIVISTS AND GROUPS LIKE THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS, SOME 79 JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

AS GIDEON POINTED OUT, IT IS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS FOR JOURNALISTS TO BE WORKING THERE.

>>> NOW, HEZBOLLAH HAS CARRIED OUT ITS DEEPEST ATTACK INTO NORTHERN ISRAEL SINCE OCTOBER 8th.

THE MILITANT GROUP SAYING TODAY IT TARGETED AN ISRAELI MILITARY COMMAND CENTER IN RESPONSE TO THE KILLINGS AS I MENTIONED OF A HAMAS LEADER AND A HEZBOLLAH COMMANDER.

ISRAEL HAS CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE KILLING OF THE HEZBOLLAH COMMANDER IN SOUTHERN LEBANON BUT NOT FOR THE DRONE STRIKE WHICH KILLED A TOP HAMAS LEADER LAST WEEK.

TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN HAS TO SAY.

>> FIRST, IN REGARDS TO LEBANON, IT'S CLEARLY NOT IN THE INTEREST OF ANYONE ISRAEL, LEBANON, HEZBOLLAH, FOR THAT MATTER, TO SEE THIS -- TO SEE THIS ESCALATE AND TO SEE AN ACTUAL CONFLICT.

AND THE ISRAELIVISE BEEN VERY CLEAR WITH US THAT THEY WANT TO FIND A DIPLOMATIC WAY FORWARD THAT CREATES THE KIND OF SECURITY THAT ALLOWS ISRAELIS TO RETURN HOME.

OVER 100,000 ISRAELIS BEEN FORCED TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES IN NORTHERN ISRAEL BECAUSE OF THE THREAT COMING FROM HEZBOLLAH AND LEBANON BUT ALSO ALLOWS LEBANESE TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES IN SOUTHERN LEBANON.

AND WE'RE WORKING INTENSELY ON THAT EFFORT AND DOING SO DIPLOMATICALLY.

>> A DIFFICULT JOB INDEED.

HERE TO DISCUSS IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE MIDDLE EAST PROGRAM AT LONDON'S CHATHAM HOUSE THINK TANK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO DO YOU FEEL LIKE APPARENTLY THE SECRETARY OF STATE DOES THAT THINGS ARE REALLY TEETERING ON THE EDGE RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF THE WAR EXPANDING FROM GAZA AND ACROSS ISRAEL'S NORTHERN BORDER INTO LEBANON?

>> THERE IS A DEEP CONCERN WHAT HAS BECOME ALMOST NORMALIZED SIMMERING TENSIONS COULD REALLY BOIL OVER.

WE'VE HAD ATTACKS COMING FROM THE HOUTHIS IN YEMEN THAT HAVE ATTACKED MARITIME SHIPPING.

WE HAVE SEEN BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL AT A DANGEROUS LEVEL DESPITE THE REGULAR MESSAGING THAT THERE IS NO INTENTION OF REGIONALIZING THIS WAR.

THERE HAVE BEEN ATTACKS IN SYRIA, ATTACKS IN IRAQ, AND THIS COULD VERY WELL LEAD TO A MISCALCULATION.

>> CAN I JUST POINT OUT AND JUST EMPHASIZE WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

A BEIRUT BASED JOURNALIST HAS JUST TWEETED HEZBOLLAH AND IRAN HAS SIGNALED CLEARLY REPEATEDLY THEY WANT TO AVOID A WAR.

THIS WAS AFTER THESE ASSASSINATIONS WE'VE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

YOU KNOW THE REGION.

EVERYBODY THINKS THEY HAVE A VERY CLEVER GAME TARGETED JUST SO, CALIBRATED JUST SO.

BUT IS THIS CALCULATION SOMETHING THAT COULD HAPPEN?

THE ISRAELI AND LEBANESE HAVE ALREADY SEEN WHAT HAPPENED ACROSS THEIR BORDER IN 2006 MOST NOTABLY.

>> YES, I MEAN THIS IS THE CLEAR RISK.

AND THIS WAS PART OF ANTONY BLINKEN'S PRIMARY OBJECTIVE FOR THIS TRIP, TO MESSAGE THE ESCALATION IS NOT IN ANYBODY'S INTEREST.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT SORT OF STRATEGIES AND TIME LINES UNDER WAY IN THE REGION.

NO COUNTRY -- NO STATE OR NONSTATE ACTOR IN THE REGION IS REALLY PUSHING FOR AN ESCALATION.

WHEREAS THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO RESET ITS DETERRENCE LEVELS SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

AND THAT REQUIRES THEM NOT ONLY TO TRY AND DECAPITATE HAMAS LEADERSHIP, WHICH WE KNOW 94 DAYS ON FROM OCTOBER 7th THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO DO, BUT ALSO TO TRY TO PUSH BACK HEZBOLLAH AND MAKE CLEAR THAT THEIR BORDERS ARE SAFE.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S ONGOING RIGHT NOW.

WHEREAS THE REST OF THE REGION BE IT IRAN, BE IT HEZBOLLAH, BE IT THE WIDER ARAB PARTNERS OF THE UNITED STATES HAVE NO INTEREST IN SEEING THIS EXPLODE BECAUSE THIS COULD REALLY TAKE THINGS INTO A NEW ORBIT.

>> AND JUST REMIND EVERYBODY.

I MEAN I COVERED THE 2006 WAR.

IT WASN'T A VICTORY BY ISRAEL OR HEZBOLLAH.

IT AT BEST WAS DETERMINED TO HAVE BEEN FOUGHT TO A DRAW.

THEN THERE WAS A U.N.

RESOLUTION I THINK 1701 I THINK REQUIRED THEM TO MOVE BACK FROM DEMARCATED LANDS.

APPARENTLY NEITHER OF THEM KEPT TO THAT COMMITMENT.

SO IS THERE A POLITICAL SOLUTION THAT ACTUALLY CAN REINFORCE AND DE-ESCALATE THE LEBANON OR THE HEZBOLLAH, ISRAEL TENSION RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, ANOTHER U.S. OFFICIAL WAS JUST IN LEBANON I THINK FOR THIS VERY ISSUE, TRYING TO FIND A SPACE SAVING SOLUTION TO PUSH HEZBOLLAH BACK ACCORDING TO U.N.

RESOLUTION 1701 PAST THE LETANI RIVER AND ALSO FIND A SPACE SAVING WAY FOR HEZBOLLAH TO DO THAT.

THERE HAVE BEEN SUGGESTIONS HEZBOLLAH IS PULLING BACK, BUT AT THE SAME TIME YOU SEE THE ISRAELIS KEEP PRESSING AND KEEP STRIKING AT COMMANDERS IN LEBANON.

AND THIS MIGHT BE LOW LEVEL ESCALATION, BUT THERE WILL BE ONE DAY WHERE THIS GOES TOO FAR.

AND THIS COULD BE A VERY DIFFERENT WAR THAN 2006.

>> I SPOKE JUST WHEN ALL THIS SORT OF FLARED UP TO THE LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER WHO AT THE TIME WAS IN WASHINGTON AND ABOUT TO VISIT THE WHITE HOUSE TO TALK ABOUT THESE TENSIONS.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID TO ME PARTLY.

>> WE DON'T WANT ANY ESCALATION IN THE WAR.

WE DON'T WANT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE SOUTH TO BE SPREAD OVER LEBANON.

WE DON'T LIKE A REGIONAL WAR BECAUSE IT'S DANGEROUS FOR EVERYBODY.

DANGEROUS FOR LEBANON, DANGEROUS FOR ISRAEL, AND TO THE COUNTRIES SURROUNDING ISRAEL.

>> HE'S PRETTY MUCH LAID IT OUT, BUT IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE PRIME MINISTER OF THAT COUNTRY AND ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES TO BE SAYING THAT.

HOW DOES ISRAEL, IF IT DOES BROADEN, HOW DO YOU SEPARATE A WAR AGAINST HEZBOLLAH FROM A WAR AGAINST LEBANON ITSELF AND THE WESTERN LEBANESE BACKED ARMED FORCES WHICH HAVE ALSO BEEN TARGETED?

>> I DON'T THINK YOU CAN REALLY.

>> THE ISRAELIS SAY WE'RE NOT STRIKING, YOU KNOW, THE LEBANESE STATE.

>> THIS WILL BE SEEN AS A BROADER WAR.

AND IT'S A WAR THAT WON'T JUST BE ABOUT HEZBOLLAH.

THIS WILL INVOLVE THE WHOLE SYSTEM.

HEZBOLLAH ITSELF IS EMBEDDED INTO THAT SYSTEM, AND IT IS PART OF THE GOVERNANCE SYSTEM, WHETHER THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY OR THE LEBANESE LIKE IT OR NOT.

AND THAT IN ITSELF IS THE PROBLEM.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS.

IN THE TIMES OF LONDON THIS SUNDAY, THE SUNDAY TIMES YOU MIGHT HAVE READ IT.

THERE WAS A FRONT PAGE ARTICLE BY AN ISRAELI JOURNALIST WHO TALKED ABOUT THE STASH OF PAPERS AND DOCUMENTS AND MAYBE EVEN HARD DRIVES THAT SOME OF THE ISRAELI FORCES HAVE FOUND APPARENTLY IN HIS OFFICE.

IT TALKED ABOUT THERE -- IT WAS FROM A COUPLE YEARS AGO BUT TALKED ABOUT TRYING TO DISRUPT ANY KIND OF NORMALIZATION WHETHER IT WAS AT THE TIME BETWEEN TURKEY AND ISRAEL.

AND IT TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THEIR SORT OF STRATEGY IN THE REGION.

THEN BEFORE THERE WAS ALSO, YOU KNOW, I THINK CHATHAM HOUSE EVEN PUT THIS OUT, MADDUX WHO USED TO BE A JOURNALIST INTERVIEWED YEARS AGO THE HAMAS LEADER WHO WAS ASSASSINATED.

AND HE HAD SAID TO HER THAT OUR AIM IS TO RADICALIZE IN HER WORDS THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION SO THAT THEY DO NOT GO TOWARDS PEACE.

AND HAMAS WANTS TO DELEGITIMIZE THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND SORT OF DISABLE ANY SENTIMENT TOWARDS PEACE.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S STILL WHAT THEY THINK?

AND IN WHICH CASE HOW DOES ONE GET OVER THIS?

HOW DOES ONE GET TO A DAY AFTER?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY THERE ARE ELEMENTS OF PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP, HAMAS LEADERSHIP THAT HAVE MORE RADICAL SENTIMENTS.

I THINK WHERE WE ARE TODAY IS NORMALIZATION HAS SLOWED IF NOT STOPPED COMPLETELY AND WILL BE VERY FAR AND HARD TO ACHIEVE WITHOUT A CEASE-FIRE AND WITHOUT ATTENDING TO THE HUMANITARIAN ISSUES ON THE TABLE AS WELL AS WITHOUT A PLAN THAT ADDRESSES THE ISSUE OF PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD THAT HAS BEEN COMPLETELY ABANDONED.

SO THAT'S, I THINK, PRIMARY TASK HERE.

BUT BEYOND THAT WHAT IS URGENTLY NEEDED IS A PATHWAY THAT CREATES A PROCESS WHERE PALESTINIAN LEADERS CAN WORK TOGETHER FOR REFORM, ACCOUNTABILITY, GOVERNANCE, WITH ELECTIONS AT THE END OF THIS PROCESS.

AND AN OPPORTUNITY FOR PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES TO ELECT THEIR FUTURE LEADERS SHOULD CERTAINLY BE AN OPPORTUNITY GIVEN TO PALESTINIANS AND NOT ONE THAT THEY'VE HAD FOR WELL OVER TWO DECADES NOW.

>> YEAH, THEY HAVEN'T GONE TO ELECTIONS.

LAST QUESTION, YOU ARE AN EXPERT AND A STUDENT OF THE IRAN PIECE OF THIS WHOLE PICTURE.

IT ALSO SEEMS TO BE TRYING TO STAY OUT OF A DIRECT CONFRONTATION.

HOW LONG CAN THAT LAST?

WHAT REALLY DOES IRAN WANT OUT OF ALL THIS?

>> WELL, IRAN'S MOTIVATIONS ARE MULTIPLE.

ULTIMATELY THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC HAS ALWAYS BEEN DRIVEN BY ITS OWN SENSE OF SURVIVAL ABOVE ALL, AND ITS SECURITY AND STABILITY HAS ALWAYS BEEN PARAMOUNT.

IT HAS RELIED ON THE AXIS OF RESISTANCE, THIS NETWORK IT HAS CULTIVATED AND CREATED OVER A NUMBER OF DECADES AS ITS PRIMARY TOOL OF DETERRENCE AGAINST ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES, TWO COUNTRIES THAT IT HAS DEFINED AS ITS THREATS IN THE REGION.

AND SO IT WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE AXIS OF RESISTANCE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME IRAN DOES SEE THE U.S. AS A DECLINING INFLUENCE IN THE REGION, A DESTABILIZING REGIONAL INFLUENCE ABOVE ALL, AND IRAN HAS OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS RESTORED TIES WITH THE GULF ARAB COUNTRIES AND IS LOOKING TO FORGE STRONGER ECONOMIC LINKAGES AND BE PART OF AN INTEGRATED MIDDLE EAST AS WELL.

AND THAT OF COURSE IS HARD TO ACHIEVE WITHATES OPPOSITIONAL STANCE WITH THE UNITED STATES, ITS ACCELERATING NUCLEAR PROGRAM, AND OF COURSE THIS UNDERLYING TENSION WITH ISRAEL THAT IS I THINK TEHRAN IS CALCULATING WILL INCREASE OVER THIS YEAR IN PARTICULAR.

>> AND JUST VERY BRIEFLY BEFORE I LET YOU GO, DO YOU THINK THERE'S A WAY TO PULL THINGS BACK?

THE ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER TOLD THE U.S. FOREIGN MINISTER THEY'RE LOOKING FOR SOME KIND OF DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION.

>> YES, I THINK THERE IS.

AND IT BEGINS WITH A CEASE-FIRE.

THAT CEASE-FIRE CAN SET THE PATHWAY FORWARD TO RELEASE HOSTAGES THAT HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY NEGLECTED AS GIDEON LEVI BROUGHT UP IN YOUR PREVIOUS INTERVIEW.

BEYOND THAT, OF COURSE, THE ARAB STATES, PARTNERS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE GOING TO NEED TO PLAY A REALLY IMPORTANT INTEGRAL ROLE IN GUARANTEEING PALESTINIAN SECURITY, ISRAELI SECURITY, PROVIDING A BRIDGE TO IRAN, MAKING SURE THEY'RE NOT IN A SPOILER IN WHAT COMES NEXT.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG PROCESS.

WAITING FOR THE DAY AFTER TO BEGIN THAT PROCESS IS A BIT TOO LATE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>>> MEANTIME, GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD ARE COMING INCREASINGLY UNDER SCRUTINY AS THEY GRAPPLE WITH HOW TO RESPOND THREE MONTHS INTO A WAR THAT STARTED WITH THEIR STAUNCH SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE AFTER THE OCTOBER 7th MASSACRES BY HAMAS.

THAT HAS NOW LED TO THE STAGGERING GAZA DEATH TOLL AS WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING IN WHICH 1% OF ITS 2 MILLION INHABITANTS HAVE BEEN KILLED.

HERE IN THE U.K. FOREIGN MINISTER DAVID CAMERON IS NOW CALLING FOR A, QUOTE, SUSTAINABLE CEASE-FIRE.

>> THE FIRST THING I'M WORRIED ABOUT IS GETTING MORE AID INTO GAZA.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT PEOPLE GOING HUNGRY IN GAZA AND THAT LEADING TO POTENTIALLY STARVATION.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT PEOPLE GETTING ILL IN GAZA AND THAT LEADING TO LARGE SCALE DISEASE OUTBREAKS.

AND WE NEED MORE TRUCKS WITH MORE AID GETTING INTO GAZA.

AND I'VE BEEN TALKING WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND OTHERS AND VISITING EGYPT AND VISITING JORDAN TO TRY AND MAKE SURE THAT HAPPENS.

LOOK, OF COURSE, ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO COMBAT HAMAS AND TO STOP THE 7th OF OCTOBER EVENT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

IT WAS AN APPALLING SLAW SLAUGHTER, AN APPALLING EVENT AND WE SUPPORT THEM AS THEY DO THAT, BUT WE MUST HAVE MORE AID IN GAZA TO STOP STARVATION, TO STOP DISEASE.

>> OUR NEXT GUEST KNOWS THE REGION VERY WELL AS THE U.K.'S FORMER INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT SECRETARY AND A FORMER TORY MP RORY STEWART IS CO-HOST OF A PODCAST WHICH COVERS THIS WAR FROM CLIMATE CHANGE TO DEMOCRACY.

AND RORY IS BACK WITH ME IN LONDON.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

WE'VE HAD A LOT OF CONVERSATION AND LEADING UP TO YOU NOW WITH THE DIFFERENT ASPECTS WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN WHERE WE ARE.

FIRST AND FOREMOST YOU HEARD SALAM SAY THE ONLY WAY TO GET OUT OF THIS IS HAVE A CEASE-FIRE AND TRY TO FIX THIS DIPLOMATICALLY.

WHAT DOES DAVID CAMERON AND ANALINA, WHAT DO THEY ALL MEAN BY SUSTAINABLE CEASE-FIRE, AND IS THAT A SUSTAINABLE POSITION?

>> NO, IT'S NOT A SUSTAINABLE POSITION.

A SUSTAINABLE CEASE-FIRE REALLY ISN'T A CEASE-FIRE.

IT'S A WAY OF SAYING THAT THEY WANT TO SIGNAL THAT THEY'D LIKE THE FIGHTING TO STOP BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO RESTRICT ISRAEL'S ABILITY TO CONDUCT OPERATIONS.

AND A LOT OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH BRITAIN, GERMANY'S RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL, IT'S TO DO WITH POLITICS INSIDE THE UNITED KINGDOM.

IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT TIME IN THE UNITED KINGDOM.

THE JEWISH COMMUNITY FEELS UNDER ATTACK.

THERE'S A RISE IN ANTI-SEMITIC ATTACKS, HORROR IN RELATION TO THE HAMAS ATTACK AND OF COURSE THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES.

BUT INCREASINGLY, OF COURSE, THIS POSITION IS UNTENABLE.

QUITE CLEARLY WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IN GAZA IS NOT ACHIEVING ISRAEL'S OBJECTIVES.

IT'S KILLING AS YOU SAID MANY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

ANY ATTEMPT BY ISRAEL TO SHOW THAT IT'S WILLING TO TAKE REVENGE AND ACTION HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED WEEKS AGO, AND THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT SHOULD, I THINK, CLEARLY NOW BE COMING OUT FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

>> AND THEN WHAT?

BECAUSE THEY ALL SAY -- I THINK HOW THEY DESCRIBE SUSTAINABLE ALSO IS THAT SOMETHING THAT LASTS.

IN OTHER WORDS, THAT YOU CAN'T LEAVE THIS SMOLDERING FIRE SMOLDERING AND WAIT FOR, YOU KNOW, ANOTHER MASSACRE AND ANOTHER ROUND OF KILLINGS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS.

>> YOU PUT CEASE-FIRES INTO PLACE, CEASE-FIRES GET BROKEN, THEY CAN BE TEMPORARY.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN THE CONFLICTS ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

AND PUTTING THIS SITUATION AGAIN AND ISRAEL'S REPUTATION NOW IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAS BEEN PUT BACK NOW DECADES.

THE UNITED STATES REPUTATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAS BEEN UNBELIEVABLY HARDENED WITH ISRAEL.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE COUNTRIES WANTING TO BE GENEROUS AND RECONSTRUCTING GAZA THAT WILL COST HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS BILLIONS.

>> TALKING ABOUT THE U.S.

POSITION, WHAT ABOUT THE BRITISH POSITION?

THE SAUDI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.K. WAS SAYING ISRAEL IS A BLIND SPOT FOR IT THE U.K.

WHICH MAKES IT A BLIND SPOT FOR PEACE AND CALLED ON ISRAEL TO MAKE IT BLIND SPOT FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD, WHICH WHAT DO YOU THINK HE MEANS?

>> I THINK FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD ISRAEL WOULD BE CALLING FOR CEASE-FIRE.

>> I CANNOT PERSONALLY SEE ANY JUSTIFICATION FOR THESE CONTINUING OPERATIONS.

WE KNOW FROM IRAQ, WE KNOW FROM AFGHANISTAN THAT THIS IS NOT A WAY TO DEAL WITH THE TERRORIST GROUP.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN AFGHANISTAN CLAIMING THAT THAT WAS GOING TO SOMEHOW ELIMINATE THE TALIBAN, AND OF COURSE NOW THE TALIBAN GOVERNMENT IS BACK IN CONTROL.

SO THE -- THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT IS IN A COMPLETELY UNTENABLE.

THEY'RE NOT GETTING ANY INFLUENCE ON ISRAEL.

>> IMPLICATE SOME OF THEIR VOTERS AS WELL.

BUT IT'S NOT WORKING.

>> IT'S NOT EVEN VERY POPULAR IN BRITAIN.

THERE ARE MANY, MANY PEOPLE IN BRITAIN WHO ARE HORRIFIED.

>> RIGHT, EXACTLY.

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

CITIZENS AND EVEN YESTERDAY PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS INTERRUPTED BRIEFLY IN A CAMPAIGN SPEECH IN SOUTH CAROLINA.

YOU KNOW, A BLACK CHURCH WHERE HE WAS TRYING TO APPEAL TO THE COMMUNITY THERE AND HE ACTUALLY SAID I UNDERSTAND YOUR PASSION, AND I HAVE BEEN QUIETLY TRYING TO PERSUADE ISRAEL TO SIGNIFICANTLY, YOU KNOW, DISENGAGE FROM GAZA.

HIS SECRETARY OF STATE IS THERE RIGHT NOW.

GIVEN ALL OF THAT, IF WE JUST COME NOW TO POLITICS, I MEAN I DON'T EXPECT YOU TO WEIGH IN ON HOW IT'S GOING TO AFFECT THE U.S. ELECTION, BUT THERE'S GOING TO BE AN ELECTION HERE, TOO HOW DO YOU THINK THIS WILL OR WILL IT AFFECT U.K.

POLITICS AND DO YOU THINK THIS TORY GOVERNMENT IS HERE FOR THE LONG-TERM?

>> I THINK IT'S LIKELY THE GOVERNMENT WILL LOSE, BUT THIS EVENT THE REFUSAL TO CALL FOR A CEASE-FIRE IS DAMAGING.

THERE ARE PERHAPS 30 LABOR SEATS WHERE MUSLIM VOTERS ARE SWING VOTERS AND THEY FEEL VERY, VERY ANGRY ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

AND IT'S AN ISSUE WHERE HE'S LOOKING FOR WAYS TO DIFFERENTIATE HIMSELF IS IN DANGER OF BEING OUTFLANKED IF THE U.S. CHANGES ITS POSITION, THE PRIME MINISTER CHANGES ITS POSITION, HE'LL FIND HIMSELF LEFT BEHIND.

SO THERE HAS TO BE A WAY TO DO SOMETHING POLITICIANS SEEM TO FIND VERY DIFFICULT.

WHICH IS TO SAY THE HAMAS ATTACKS WERE UNBELIEVABLY BRUTAL ATROCITIES THAT KILLED 1,400 PEOPLE AND ISRAEL HAD A RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF AND ENOUGH ALREADY, FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED.

THERE'S NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THESE ONGOING OPERATIONS.

>> CAN I SWITCH TOPICS ABOUT POLITICS HERE WHICH ARE INCREDIBLY, INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT, AND THAT IS THE ISSUE OF CLIMATE, SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE VERY, VERY, YOU KNOW, INVOLVED IN.

WHAT RIGHT NOW THE FORMER TORY MINISTER HAS RESIGN AS AN MP TO PROTEST THIS GOVERNMENT AS SOON AS LEGISLATION TO ISSUE NOW OIL AND GAS LICENSES.

HE SAID I CAN NO LONGER STANDBY.

THE CLIMATE CRISIS WE FACE IS IGNORE.

IN A WORD, AFTER THE COP -- YOU KNOW, IN THE UAE IS THIS GOVERNMENT YOU THINK COMMITTED TO NET ZERO, TO THE -- WHAT USED TO BE A REALLY PROMINENT CLIMATE LEADER?

>> I THINK THE GOVERNMENT IS TRIMMING.

I THINK IT'S TRYING TO PLACATE BITS ON THE RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE PARTY SKEPTICAL ABOUT ISSUES TO ADDRESS CLIMATE CHANGE.

IT'S TRYING TO DEAL WITH ISSUES AROUND NATIONAL SECURITY, TRYING TO DEAL WITH ECONOMIC GROWTH.

I THINK THE PRIME MINISTER BELIEVES THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A REAL PROBLEM.

HE'S TRYING TO DO THINGS ABOUT IT, BUT HE WOULD SAY HE'S BEING PRAGMATIC, AND THE RISK OF THAT IS THAT WHEN YOU LOSE THE CLEAR POLICY DIRECTION, ALL THE BUSINESSES AND OTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN MAKING INVESTMENTS ON THE BASIS WHAT GOVERNMENTS HAVE SAID OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS BEGIN TO THINK MAYBE THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T THAT SERIOUS ANYMORE.

THAT'S THE REAL PROBLEM HERE.

IT'S FINE TO SOUND PROGRESSIVE, BUT WHAT YOU'RE MISS SG THE SIGNAL YOU'RE PASSING UNDERMINES AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF INVESTMENT.

>> YOU WERE PRESIDENT IF THAT'S THE RIGHT WORD OF GIVE DIRECTLY, A CHARITY THAT BELIEVES IN GIVING DIRECTLY.

NOW YOU'RE AN ADVISOR BECAUSE YOUR OTHER WORK HAS TAKEN OVER A LITTLE BIT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU TO EXPLAIN I THINK A PARTNERSHIP YOU'VE GONE INTO WITH THE SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT TO HELP DISTRIBUTE FUNDS DESIGNED, YOU KNOW, BY COP TO MITIGATE THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND THAT'S IN AFRICA.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> SO ONE OF THE GREAT INSIGHTS IS WITH CLIMATE CHANGE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO GET SUPPORT TO PEOPLE BEFORE THE CLIMATE DISASTER HAPPENS.

IF YOU CAN GET SUPPORT TO PEOPLE BEFORE THE FLOOD OCCURS, THEN THEY CAN MOVE LIVESTOCK, THEY CAN MOVE HOUSES.

IF THE FLOOD HITS THEM AND THEN YOU PROVIDE SUPPORT AFTERWARDS, THEIR LIVES HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY DELVE STATED.

IT COSTS YOU TEN TIMES MORE AND OF COURSE COMMUNITIES ARE DESTROYED.

WE ARE NOW IN A WORLD WHERE WITH A.I., WITH COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY WE CAN PREDICT MORE ACCURATELY THAN WE COULD HAVE IN THE PAST.

IT'S NOT EASY BUT MORE ACCURATELY.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE LOOKING WITH THE SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT AND OTHERS IS LOOK AT REACTION AND MORE PARTICULARLY TO UNDERSTAND THE MOST EASY THING YOU CAN DO, THE MOST EFFECTIVE THING YOU CAN DO IS GIVE EFFECTIVE CASH.

EVERY HOUSE IS DIFFERENT.

YOU MAY WANT TO FIX YOUR ROOF, SETUP A SMALL BUSINESS, GET MY KIDS BACK INTO SCHOOL OR MAY WANT TO BUY FOOD.

CASH ALLOWS YOU TO MAKE THE CHOICE.

>> VERY QUICKLY WE'VE GOT 15 SECONDS.

UNIVERSAL INCOME SOME PEOPLE SAY MAKES PEOPLE LAZY, DOESN'T LET THEM WORK, ET CETERA.

>> THE EVIDENCE IS INCREDIBLY STRONG.

IT'S A REVOLUTION UNCONDITIONAL CASH IS OUTPERFORMING ALMOST EVERY STUDY, EVERY CONVENTIONAL DEVELOPMENT INTERVENTION.

IT'S TRANSFORMING NUTRITION, EDUCATION, SHELTER.

CASH IS THE WAY FORWARD.

>> AND ON THAT NOTE, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

AND NEXT WE REVISIT A RECENT CONVERSATION.

BETTER KNOWN AS BLACK THOUGHT FROM THE HIP HOP GROUP THE ROOTS.

TROTTER TURNED TO MUSIC AFTER A SERIES OF TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES GROWING UP INCLUDING THE MURDER OF HIS OWN MOTHER WHEN HE WAS 16.

HE DETAILS THESE TRAGEDIES IN HIS NEW MEMOIR, THE UP CYCLED SELF, AND SHE SPEAKS TO HARRY ABOUT HOW HIS CHILDHOOD IMPACTED HIS CAREER.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

TARIQ TAUTER, ALSO KNOWN AS BLACK THOUGHT TO MOST OF US WHO HAVE LISTENED TO HIM FOR SO MANY YEARS AS PART OF THE ROOTS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

FIRST OF ALL, CONGRATULATIONS ON THIS BOOK.

I AM NOT SURPRISED YOU'RE VENTURING OUT INTO THIS SORT OF WRITTEN WORD EXPRESSION.

WHAT IS THE UP CYCLED SELF MEAN?

>> I'M FROM PHILADELPHIA, FROM A SPECIFIC PLACE AND TIME THERE WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAD TO SORT OF MOVE THROUGH LIFE WITH A LAYER OF CALLUS, RIGHT, OF SCAR TISSUE ALMOST AS A PROTECTIVE SORT OF THING.

YOU KNOW, AND IT SERVES A PURPOSE AT ONE TIME IN YOUR LIFE OR AT LEAST IT MAY.

AND THEN AS WE EVOLVE, AS WE MATURE, AS WE MOVE ON IN LIFE, YOU KNOW, THESE THINGS NO LONGER SERVE US IN THE SAME WAY.

SO THE UP CYCLED SELF-IT SPEAKS TO THE WISDOM IT TAKES TO RECOGNIZE, YOU KNOW, WHEN TO LEAVE A THING IN THE PAST, TO -- TO BACK AWAY OR TO MOVE FORWARD IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

>> YOU START OUT THIS BOOK WITH SOMETHING I SUSPECT ANYBODY WOULD WANT TO LEAVE IN THE PAST AND IT'S A HORRENDOUS STORY OF YOU SETTING YOUR HOUSE ON FIRE AS A LITTLE KID, PLAYING WITH TOYS AND BEING A CURIOUS KID AND STARTING A FIRE WITH YOUR TV.

WHAT WERE SOME OF THE REPERCUSSIONS OF THAT EVENT?

>> YOU KNOW, THE BOOK ACTUALLY BEGINS WITH THE FIRE.

IT TOOK PLACE WHEN I WAS 6 YEARS OLD.

I BURNED, YOU KNOW, MY FAMILY HOME DOWN.

AND, YEAH, I THINK THIS STORY TO FOLLOW THAT PUTS YOU INTO THE MIND OF -- YOU KNOW, THE STORY IS TOLD IN THE SPIRIT OF THE PHOENIX.

SO I THINK I VERY MUCH EMERGED FROM THE FLAMES.

SO IT BEGINS WITH THE FIRE EVEN THOUGH THAT WASN'T MY FIRST TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE EVEN AT THAT YOUNG AGE.

IT WAS -- YOU KNOW, IT WAS A WATERSHED MOMENT IN THAT WAY.

AND IT WAS A MOMENT -- IT WAS MY EARL IEST MEMORY OF A TIME AFTER WHICH, YOU KNOW, THINGS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME.

BUT TALK ABOUT JUST CURIOSITY, RIGHT, OF A CHILD AND THE TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF GRACE AND WISDOM THAT IT TOOK MY MOTHER, YOU KNOW, FOR HER TO EXTEND AND NOT COME HOME AFTER HAVING LOST EVERYTHING AND SORT OF LOSE IT.

HER MAIN CONCERN WAS THAT NO ONE HAD BEEN HURT.

AND I WASN'T REMANDED.

I WASN'T PUNISHED IN THE WAY THAT I EXPECTED TODAY BE, AND I THINK THERE'S BEAUTY AND THERE WAS GREAT VALUE IN THAT.

AND MY MOTHER SORT OF RECOGNIZING THAT IT WAS MY CURIOSITY, AND IT WAS MY, YOU KNOW, IMAGINATION THAT LED TO -- YOU KNOW, TO THE EVENT.

SO SHE WAS ABLE TO HELP ME -- TO ENCOURAGE ME TO LEAN INTO THAT CURIOSITY AND INTO THAT IMAGINATION BY GETTING INTO THE ARTS.

>> SO WHAT DID THAT DO TO YOUR MOM YOU THINK?

BECAUSE SHE HAD WORKED SO HARD TO -- YOUR FATHER HAD BEEN MURDERED EARLIER, AND SHE WAS RAISING YOU, TOO, AND SHE'S BUILT ALL THESE THINGS, SHE'S SAVED UP.

SHE'S KIND OF BUILT SOMETHING NORMAL FOR THE TWO OF YOU, AS NORMAL AS CAN BE.

AND THEN TO LITERALLY SEE IT GO UP IN SMOKE, WHAT DOES THAT TO DO TO HER PSYCHE?

WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT OVER TIME?

>> IT REALLY -- I MEAN OVER TIME I CAME TO REALIZE JUST THE TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF STRENGTH AND, YOU KNOW, RESILIENCE THAT SHE HAD.

BECAUSE YOU THINK BACK WHEN SHE LOST MY FATHER, MY FATHER WAS VERY YOUNG.

HE WAS, YOU KNOW, MAYBE 26.

MY MOTHER WAS STILL VERY YOUNG.

THERE'S NO WAY SHE COULD HAVE FULLY RECOVERED BECAUSE I THINK MAYBE FOUR YEARS OR SO HAD PASSED IF THAT.

SO SHE WAS -- THE WHOLE FAMILY WAS STILL VERY MUCH IN THE GRIEVING PROCESS.

YOU KNOW, SO THIS WAS SORT OF BACK-TO-BACK LOSS IN THAT WAY, THAT, YEAH, I MEAN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AND COULD HAVE BEEN DEVASTATING.

BUT IT WASN'T IN MANY WAYS.

>> SO WHO WERE THE MEN THAT YOU LOOKED AT AS ROLE MODELS OR FATHER FIGURES DURING THIS IMPRESSIONABLE TIME?

>> MY EARLIEST EXAMPLES OF MANHOOD, YOU KNOW, ASIDE FROM WHAT I SAW IN MY GRANDPARENTS, LIKE IN MY FATHER'S FATHER, WHO I SAW RARELY.

AND MY MOTHER'S STEPFATHER WHO I REFER TO MY MY GRANDFATHER, THEY WERE SORT OF THE EXAMPLES.

BUT THEN THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, THE GENTLEMEN THAT WERE IN MY MOTHER'S LIFE, PEOPLE MY MOTHER WOULD DATE, MY MOTHER'S MALE FRIENDS, A COLORFUL CAST OF CHARACTERS, YOU KNOW, SET MANY AN EXAMPLE.

SOME WERE GOOD EXAMPLES, SOME WERE BAD.

BUT THAT WAS SORT OF WHAT I HAD.

AND I HAD, AGAIN, MY OLDER BROTHER WHO FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES WAS AWAY FROM THE FAMILY BECAUSE HE SPENT, YOU KNOW -- HE ESSENTIALLY CAME TO ADULTHOOD IN THE JUVENILE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

AND, YOU KNOW, GRADUATED.

>> YOUR MOM FIGURED OUT SOMEHOW THAT YOUR CURIOSITY ALSO TRANSLATED INTO THE ABILITY FOR YOU TO EXPRESS YOURSELF ARTISTICALLY, AND SHE PUSHED YOU INTO THAT.

HOW DID SHE DO THAT?

>> I THINK THE EARLIEST INDICATION OF HER SORT OF UNDERSTANDING THAT THING, THAT DYNAMIC WAS JUST IN HER ENCOURAGING BE TO TAKE ART CLASSES I THINK IN THE SUMMER.

WELL EVEN BEFORE I TOOK VISUAL ART CLASSES, MY MOTHER SHE HAD SIGNED ME UP FOR CHOIR AND SHE ALWAYS ENCOURAGED ME TO SORT OF LEAN INTO MUSIC.

BUT WHEN SHE FIND OUT VISUAL ART WAS SORT OF MY THING, SHE WAS REALLY SUPER SUPPORTIVE OF THAT.

AT EVERY TURN SHE WOULD REGISTER ME FOR A THING.

ANYTHING THAT WAS FREE I WAS DEFINITELY GOING TO DO, BUT ALL THE OTHER THINGS, ANYTHING WE COULD AFFORD OR SAVE UP FOR, SHE ALSO WOULD ENCOURAGE.

>> YOU ALSO ARE VERY VULNERABLE IN THIS BOOK AND YOU WRITE ABOUT SOME VERY PAINFUL MOMENTS IN TERMS OF YOUR MOM.

YOU BASICALLY HAVE KIND OF A SCENE YOU PLAY OUT, AND IT'S TRYING TO TO ESSENTIALLY RESCUE HER FROM WHAT WOULD BE A CRACK HOUSE.

WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

>> I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IT WAS -- THAT MAY HAVE BEEN -- I THINK ABOUT LOW POINTS OF MY LIFE, DARK MOMENTS.

I DON'T KNOW I'VE EVER BEEN AS RESIGNED AS, YOU KNOW, JUST SAD AND DOWN, BAD AS I WAS IN THAT MOMENT.

AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK I'VE GRAPPLED WITH OVER THE YEARS.

BUT IN THAT MOMENT, I WENT TO GO -- I WAS EVEN LOOKING FOR MY MOM FOR A PERIOD OF DAYS.

A COUPLE DAYS HAD GONE BY AND I TRACKED HER DOWN AND SHE WAS IN A DRUG HOUSE.

AND, YEAH, I THOUGHT I WAS SHOWING UP LIKE THE CAVALRY.

I WAS THERE TO SAVE MY MOM AND TAKE HER OUT OF THIS PLACE.

I HAD TO ACCEPT THE HARSH REALITY OF JUST THE MATTER OF FACT THAT SHE IN THAT MOMENT PREFERRED TO REMAIN, RIGHT?

SHE DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE.

SO I COULDN'T CONVINCE HER TO LEAVE, AND IT WAS -- IT WAS JUST A SUPER GUT WRENCHING MOMENT FOR ME AS A YOUNG PERSON BECAUSE I WAS -- AS I RECALL I MAY HAVE BEEN -- I WAS 14, 13 OR 14 YEARS OLD.

>> LATER IN THE BOOK YOU'RE NOT LIVING WITH YOUR MOM.

YOU'RE SOMEPLACE ELSE.

HOW DID YOU FIND OUT THAT YOUR MOTHER WAS DEAD?

>> YEAH.

MY MOTHER WAS MOTHERED WHEN I WAS -- I THINK I'D JUST TURNED 16 OR SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 15 AND 16 MY MOTHER WAS MURDERED.

I MOVED OUT OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA TO MICHIGAN RIGHT OUTSIDE DETROIT TO STAY WITH AN UNCLE, WITH ONE OF MY FATHER'S BROTHERS WHO I NEVER MET JUST BECAUSE THE STREETS HAD GOTTEN SO CRAZY.

MY NEIGHBORHOOD WAS CRAZY.

LOTS OF MY FRIENDS WERE, YOU KNOW, BEING MURDERED OR SENT TO PRISON.

AND IT WAS THE MIDDLE OF 1980s DRUG CRACK EPIDEMIC AND EVERYTHING THAT SORT OF CAME ALONG WITH IT.

SO MY FAMILY HAD SENT ME TO MICHIGAN FOR A WHILE, AND IT DIDN'T WORK OUT IN MICHIGAN.

BUT WHEN I CAME BACK TO PHILLY, IT WAS WE WERE -- WE HAD AGREED THAT I WOULDN'T RETURN TO ITO MY OLD NEIGHBORHOOD.

I WASN'T LIVING WITH MY MOTHER.

I WAS STAYINGANE AN APARTMENT MY GRANDPARENTS OWNED.

SHE WAS SORT OF LIVING MY LIFE AND I WAS LIVING MINE.

I HAD SCHOOL, I HAD WORK.

AND DAYS, SOMETIMES WEEKS WOULD GO BY WITHOUT US SEEING ONE ANOTHER, BUT WE WOULD SPEAK ON THE PHONE.

I JUST REMEMBER THERE WAS A PERIOD DURING WHICH A FEW DAYS HAD GONE BY IN WHICH NO ONE IN THE FAMILY HAD HEARD FROM OR SEEN MY MOTHER, WHICH ALSO WASN'T OUT OF THE NORM, RIGHT?

AND OVER A PERIOD OF DAYS THROUGH THE PROCESS OF ELIMINATION MY MOTHER WAS IDENTIFIED AS A JANE DOE WHO HAD TURNED UP IN THE MORGUE.

SO, YEAH.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE WAY I FOUND OUT IT WAS -- I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK MY WHOLE FAMILY EVEN BY THAT HAD POINT HAD BECOME A BIT NUMB TO JUST EXPERIENCES WITH THAT -- THAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE LIFE SHATTERING TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

WE WERE JUST SO USED TO LOSS AND GRIEF THAT I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY PULLED ANY PUNCHES.

I THINK THEY -- MY AUNT -- AS I RECALL MY AUNT AND MY GRANDMOTHER.

MY TWO -- MY GRANDMOTHER AND HER SISTER JUST CONFIRMED WOULD ME THAT THE BODY, THE JANE DOE THAT HAD BEEN FOUND THAT WE SUSPECTED WAS MY MOTHER, YES, THAT WAS CASSY.

YOU KNOW, AND WE JUST STARTED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THE ARRANGEMENTS.

IT WAS -- IT'S WILD.

I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SHED A TEAR DURING MY MOTHER'S DEATH UNTIL I SAW HER BODY BEING LOW LOWERRED INTO THE GROUND.

>> AT THAT TIME YOU'RE ALSO AT A CREATIVE ARTS HIGH SCHOOL, A PHILADELPHIA HIGH SCHOOL FOR CREATIVE AND PERFORMING ARTS, KAPA.

AND WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE NOW, BUT WHO WAS IN THAT HIGH SCHOOL AT THE TIME THAT WAS I GUESS YOUR COMPETITION, YOUR CLASSMATES, YOUR PEERS, THAT WERE ALSO PERFORMERS THAT WENT ONTO BE MORE SUCCESSFUL?

>> I WENT TO THAT SCHOOL, WHICH WAS SORT OF PHILADELPHIA'S VERSION OF A LA GUARDIA IN NEW YORK CITY.

IT WAS LIKE FAME.

IT WAS LIKE FAME, THE TV SERIES AND THE FILM.

AND, YEAH, I WAS A VISUAL ARTS MAJOR BUT THERE WERE JUST VERY MANY SINGERS AND ALREADY FORCES TO BE RECKONED WITH IN THEIR OWN RIGHT.

QUEST LOVE AND ALSO BOYS TO MEN WHO BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER AS BOYS TO MEN WERE PARTS OF OTHER MALE ENSEMBLES, JUST BEAUTIFUL HARMONIES.

WALKING THROUGH THE HALLS OF THAT SCHOOL MADE ME FEEL THE WAY IT MUST HAVE FELT TO LIKE IN THE DAYS OF CORNER BOY DUOP.

AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT SOMEONE WOULD BREAK INTO SONG.

YOU'LL TURN A CORNER AND THEY'D BE WORKING A HARMONY.

IT WAS A HUGE CONFIDENCE BUILDER FOR ME, I MEAN TO SEE KIDS THAT I KNEW GOING ON -- ONWARD AND UPWARD.

>> SO HOW DID YOU AND AMIR QUEST LOVE FIND EACH OTHER?

>> QUEST LOVE AND I FOUND EACH OTHER IN THE PRINCIPAL'S OFFICE.

IT PROBABLY WASN'T THE FIRST TIME WE WERE IN THE SPACE TOGETHER, BUT WE WERE LIKE TWO SHIPS PASSING EACH OTHER AT SEA IN THE NIGHT USUALLY.

AND IT WAS IN NIS INSTANCE I THINK I WAS ON MY WAY OUT ON A SUSPENSION WITH -- YOU KNOW, I GOT SUSPENDED SOMETIMES.

SO I'D DONE SOMETHING.

I WAS BEING SUSPENDED FROM SCHOOL, SO I WAS IN THE OFFICE AND QUEST WALKED IN.

I THINK HE WAS BRINGING LIKE FLOWERS AND APPLES TO THE FACULTY.

HE HAD ON A JACKET AND A HAND PAINTED DENIM JACKET, WHICH ONE OF MY SIDE HUSTLES AT THE TIME IS I WOULD DO HAND PARTICIPATED DENIM LIKE JEANS AND JACKETS AND I WOULD SELL THEM REALLY OUT OF MY LOCKER.

SO THE JACKET THAT HE WORE THAT DAY AND I THINK MAYBE HIS NECKLACE TOO THAT HE HAD ON WAS SORT OF THE GATEWAY TO A DYNAMIC THAT WOULD GROW WHERE I WAS ABLE TO PUT HIM ONTO PARTS OF -- ELEMENTS OF THE CULTURE AND HIP HOP MUSIC HE HADN'T BEEN EXPOSED TO YET AND VICE VERSA.

AND WE BECAME AN ODD COUPLE AND REMAIN AS SUCH.

I THINK BOTH OF US HAVE A DESIRE FOR BROTHER HOOD, TO EXPERIENCE THAT BROTHER HOOD.

EVEN THOUGH I HAD A BROTHER, I STILL HADN'T EXPERIENCED THAT DYNAMIC IN THE WAY THAT OTHER SIBLINGS HAD.

SO IT WAS GREAT, YEAH, TO HAVE A BROTHER AT THAT TIME.

AND THEN OUR RELATIONSHIP EVOLVED INTO SOMETHING ELSE WHEN IT BECAME A BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP AND IT EVOLVED INTO NOW WHAT IS A MARRIAGE.

WE WENT FROM BROTHER HOOD TO MARRIAGE.

>> SO I WONDER YOU FORMED THIS GROUP AT THE TIME IT WASN'T CALLED THE ROOTS, RIGHT?

WHAT WAS IT CALL SND.

>> BEFORE WE WERE CALLED THE ROOTS, WE WERE CALLED THE SQUARE ROOTS.

>> THAT'S RIGHT, SQUARE ROOTS.

AND I WONDER THE SQUARE ROOTS IN THE TYPE OF INFLUENCES THAT WERE MIXING TO MAKE THE TYPE OF MUSIC THAT YOU WANTED TO MAKE AND PUT THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE TIME.

BECAUSE WHAT WE SEE OF THE ROOTS NOW, WHICH IS A MIX OF SO MANY DIFFERENT INFLUENCES, IS NOT WHAT WAS KIND OF PLAYING ON THE STREETS ON THE CAR STEREOS AS YOU WERE GROWING UP AND THIS GROUP WAS STARTING.

>> YEAH, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A HUGE CHALLENGE BECAUSE NOT ONLY DID WE NOT -- WE DIDN'T LOOK -- WE DIDN'T HAVE THE SAME, YOU KNOW, AESTHETIC AS OUR CONTEMPORARIES AT THE TIME.

NOR DID WE SOUND OR FEEL -- NOR DID LIKE OUR MUSIC SOUND OR FEEL LIKE THEIRS.

SO IN THE MIX TAPE, MIX RADIO SHOW ERA, THE ROOTS MUSIC SORT OF STOOD OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB.

AND IT'S WILD THAT IT STOOD OUT IN ITS MUSICALITY BECAUSE IT WAS LIVE INSTRUMENTATION, AND IT JUST DIDN'T FEEL LIKE -- YOU KNOW, THE STANDARD AT THAT TIME JUST FELT MORE ELECTRONIC AND WE HAD TO FIGHT TO REPRESENT THOSE INFLUENCES, RIGHT, IN ORDER TO -- TO EXPAND SORT OF THE PALATE OF THE CULTURE.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT I MEAN IT'S TAKEN SOME TIME, BUT I THINK OVER TIME THE ROOTS HATZ, YOU KNOW, BEEN HUGELY RESPONSIBLE FOR RE-ESTABLISHING THAT STANDARD.

AND NOW YOU SEE FOLKS WHO GO OUT TO TOUR, TO DO GIGS, STUDIO SESSIONS, YOU RARELY SEE I MEAN EVEN WITHIN THE REALM OF HIP HOP PEOPLE WHO DON'T USE LIVE INSTRUMENTATION.

>> IS THERE -- YOU HAVE BEEN IN SO MANY DIFFERENT FORMATS.

YOU WRITE ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU WERE A GRAFFITI ARTIST.

AT THE TIME THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED VANDALISM SORT OF DEPENDING ON WHO SAW YOUR WORK, RIGHT?

YOU'VE DONE VISUAL ARTS.

YOU'VE BEEN RHYMING FOR DECADES.

HERE YOU ARE WRITING A BOOK.

I MEAN WHAT IS IT ABOUT SELF-EXPRESSION THAT KEEPS YOU WANTING TO TRY IT IN ANOTHER FORMAT?

>> IT'S THE CHALLENGE OF TAKING ON A NEW SORT OF FORMAT, WORKING IN A NEW MEDIUM OF ALLOWING, YOU KNOW, ONE DISCIPLINE TO INFORM ANOTHER.

IT KEEPS ME ENGAGED.

AND I ALWAYS MEET, YOU KNOW, FOLKS -- SOMETIMES IT'S ONE PERSON, SOMETIMES IT'S TEN, SOMETIMES IT'S MORE.

BUT IF THERE'S ONE PERSON THAT, YOU KNOW, MY WORK, MY STORY HAS RESONATED WITH IN A WAY THAT HAS GIVEN THEM ANY DEEPER INSIGHT INTO THEMSELVES OR INTO THEIR STORY, THEN IT'S WORTH IT.

BUT I MEAN AND THAT IS -- YOU KNOW, IT'S A TWO-SIDED THERAPY, RIGHT?

LIKE THIS IS -- THIS IS THE WORK, THE PROCESS IS CATHARTIC FOR ME IN THAT WAY.

I KEEP ACCEPTING NEW CHALLENGES BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING THAT -- I MEAN THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE I'VE SEEN COME FROM PHILADELPHIA AND TRY A THING AND WIN.

AND THOSE WHO HAVE WON, ALL THOSE MANY PEOPLE WHO I'M ABLE TO LIST WHO HAVE WON, THEY HAVE WON BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T GIVE UP.

SO I FEEL LIKE ANYTHING, ANY CHALLENGE I TAKE ON AS LONG AS I STICK TO IT, I'M GOING TO BE ABLE TEE TO IT THROUGH TO FRUITION.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED THE UP CYCLED SELF.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

IT'S BEEN AWESOME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND FINALLY, TONIGHT -- THAT'S MY FRENCH.

PARIS HAS NAMED A STREET AFTER THE LATE ROCK ICON ON WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HIS 77th BIRTHDAY.

THE CELEBRATION WAS ATTENDED BY FRIENDS AND FANS WHICH INCLUDED THE MAYOR OF THE 13th DISTRICT OF PARIS WHO CAME UP WP THE IDEA.

HE REMEMBERED HIS PIONEERING GENIUS SAYING HE ALLOWED PEOPLE TO, QUOTE, BE FREER AND ALLOWED TO GROW WINGS AS THEY WERE LISTENING TO MUSIC.

THE CITY OF LIGHTS IS WHERE THE BRITISH TRAILBLAZER FIRST PERFORMED OUTSIDE THE U.K. BACK IN 1965 AND WHERE HE RECORDED TWO OF HIS ALBUMS.

AND FANS CAN LOOK FORWARD TO A NEW VINYL LP SET TO BE RELEASED ON APRIL 20th.

AND THERE'S AMAZING NEWS.

"WAITING IN THE SKY" INCLUDES FOUR NEW SONG THAT WERE RECORDED DURING THE ZIGGY STARDUST ERA.

SO LET'S LEAVE YOU NOW WITH SOME OF ZIGGY.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

ZIGGY PLAYED GUITAR JAMMING GOOD HE PLAYED A LEFT HAND BUT MADE IT TOO FAR