Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I CANNOT DESTROY IDEAS.

AND FOR ME, I HAVE TO TALK TO EVERYBODY WHO ACCEPT THE IDEA OF TWO STATES.

>> WHAT IS ISRAEL'S EXIT PLAN FROM GAZA?

FORMER SECURITY CHIEF AMI AYALON JOINS ME.

>>> THEN, BRITAIN SAYS IT COULD FORMALLY RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE.

AND HOW IT IS HELPING ITS MOST POWERFUL ALLY, AS THE U.S.

STRUGGLES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

I'LL SPEAK WITH PARLIAMENT'S TOP FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICIAL, ALICIA KEARNS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> MY WORST FEARS ARE A LIVING NIGHTMARE FOR THOSE WHO ARE LIVING IN GAZA.

>> OVER 1,000 BLACK PASTORS ARE PRESSURING PRESIDENT BIDEN TO CALL FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

REVEREND FREDERICK HAYNES TELLS MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THEIR CAMPAIGN.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

PRESSURE IS MOUNTING FOR ISRAEL AND HAMAS TO MAKE THAT DEAL FOR HOSTAGE AND PRISONER?

SWAPS AND A PAUSE IN THE FIGHTING.

BUT PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU CONTINUES TO REJECT KEY HAMAS DEMANDS.

>> Translator: I HEAR TALK ABOUT ALL KINDS OF DEALS.

I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT CLEAR, WE WILL NOT CONCLUDE THIS WAR WITHOUT ACHIEVING ALL OF ITS GOALS.

WE WILL NOT WITHDRAW THE IDF FROM THE GAZA STRIP AND WE WILL NOT RELEASE THOUSANDS OF TERRORISTS.

NONE OF THIS WILL HAPPEN.

>> MEANTIME, HEAVY FIGHTING CONTINUES IN GAZA'S KHAN YUNIS AREA, FORCING NEARLY 200,000 PALESTINIANS TO FLEE, ACCORDING TO THE U.N. MY NEXT GUEST KNOWS THE SECURITY AND DIPLOMATIC MAZE THERE VERY WELL.

AMI AYALON HAS BEEN PUSHING FOR NEGOTIATIONS FOR A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

AND IN A RARE INTERVIEW, HE JOINED ME.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> SO, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AS A LONGTIME MILITARY AND INTELLIGENCE, YOU KNOW, CHIEFS AND OPERATIVES AND EXPERIENCE, IS ISRAEL WINNING THIS WAR?

>> WELL, IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO GIVE YOU A SHORT AND CLEAR ANSWER, BECAUSE SINCE WE DO NOT -- WE DO NOT DISCUSS THE DAY AFTER, MEANING WE DO NOT DISCUSS ESSENCE OF VICTORY, SO, IF I CANNOT DEFINE VICTORY, I'M NOT SURE THAT ANYBODY CAN TELL YOU THAT WE ARE WINNING.

SOME SAY THAT WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE HEADING, SO -- WE HAVE GREAT ACHIEVEMENTS ON THE GROUND, ON THE BATTLEFIELD, BUT THERE IS A HUGE GAP BETWEEN WINNING THE BATTLE AND WINNING THE WAR.

>> UH-HUH.

>> SO, UNLESS WE DECIDE EXACTLY ON THE DAY AFTER, OR, WHAT IS THE MEANING OF VICTORY IN THIS WAR AGAINST HAMAS, I CANNOT GIVE YOU A CLEAR ANSWER.

>> OKAY, WELL, THAT'S IMPORTANT TO HEAR FROM YOU, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, NONE OF US HAVE THAT ANSWER, AND IT HASN'T BEEN STATED BY YOUR GOVERNMENT.

SO, WHAT I WANT TO THEN ASK YOU IS, THE MISSION, THE MISSION, ACCORDING TO YOUR GOVERNMENT, IS TO DEFEAT HAMAS ON THE BATTLEFIELD, AND TO RESCUE THE HOSTAGES, THE REMAINING HOSTAGES.

MY QUESTION IS, CAN THAT BE SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS AT THE SAME TIME?

CAN A MILITARY OPERATION RESCUE THE HOSTAGES AND DEFEAT HAMAS AT THE SAME TIME?

>> OF COURSE.

THERE ARE TWO VIEWS.

ONE IS, ONLY WAY TO PRESSURE HAMAS TO GIVE BACK THE HOSTAGES IS TO CREATE A MILITARY PRESSURE, AND THE OTHER IS THAT THEY -- THEY WILL CHOOSE, IN THIS CASE, WHAT WE CALL OPTION, AND WE SHALL LOSE ALL -- ALL OF THEM.

>> OKAY, SO, LET ME PUT IT ANOTHER WAY THEN.

LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT THIS CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS.

AS FAR AS WE CAN GATHER, AND -- OR PAUSE HOSTAGE DEAL, THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT WAYS TO DESCRIBE IT, AS FAR AS WE CAN GATHER, THE IDEA WOULD BE TO GET THE REMAINS HOSTAGES OUT, IN RETURN FOR SOME FORMULATION OF RELEASING A LOT OF PALESTINIAN PRISONERS, PLUS, SOME KIND OF PAUSE.

THEY'VE TALKED ABOUT SIX WEEKS, OR TWO MONTHS, EVEN.

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON A PAUSE?

WHAT WOULD THAT DO ON THE GROUND?

>> I DON'T HAVE ANY VIEW ABOUT IT.

UNLESS -- UNLESS I KNOW, WHERE ARE WE GOING ON THE DAY AFTER?

IF THE PACKAGE IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID, AND ON THE DAY AFTER, WE SHALL CREATE A FRAMEWORK OF FUTURE OF TWO STATES, I WILL VOTE FOR IT.

BUT IF THE FUTURE, OR THE LATER, THE DAY AFTER, WILL BE, YOU KNOW, CEASE-FIRE FOR ONE MONTH, THREE MONTH, WHATEVER, I KNOW EXACTLY WITHOUT A FRAMEWORK OF TWO STATES, HAMAS WILL NOT BE DESTROYED, HAMAS WILLFLOURISH AGAIN, AND OF COURSE, ALL THE MAJOR GOAL OF BRINGING BACK ALL THE HOSTAGES, BUT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, THIS WAR IS ON TWO FRONTS.

ONE IS THE BATTLEFIELD.

BUT THE OTHER IS A WAR OF IDEAS.

AND HAMAS WILL BE DEFEATED ONLY ON THE SECOND FRONT.

THE WAR OF IDEAS.

THE MAJOR DEFEAT FOR HAMAS IS THE FUTURE OF TWO STATES, AND UNLESS WE SHALL DISCUSS THE FUTURE OF TWO STATES, THERE IS NO WAY TO DEFEAT HAMAS AND TO CREATE THE BETTER POLITICAL HORIZON FOR PALESTINIANS AND FOR ISRAELIS.

>> BUT YOUR PRIME MINISTER, EVEN YESTERDAY, WAS OUT IN THE FIELD SAYING, NO, NO, NO.

WE WILL NOT, YOU KNOW, AGREE TO A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

EVEN THOUGH THE UNITED STATES, HIS MAIN ALLY, IS SAYING, THIS MUST BE.

AND ALL THE ARAB STATES WHO HE WANTS TO NORMALIZE WITH SAY, THIS MUST BE.

SO, WHO IS GOING TO WIN THIS BATTLE ON THE EXIT STRATEGY AND THE DAY AFTER?

>> AH -- IT'S A GREAT QUESTION, OF COURSE, I BELIEVE AND I HOPE THAT WE, WHEN I SAY WE, IS THE PEOPLE, THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL.

NETANYAHU TODAY DO NOT REPRESENT MORE THAN 20% OF THE ISRAELIS.

BUT YOU KNOW, IN DEMOCRACY, WE SHALL HAVE TO GO TO ELECTIONS.

SO, TODAY, AND WE KNOW IT, BECAUSE WE HAVE POLLS, AND THIS IS THE MOST THAT WE CAN DO, 70% OF THE ISRAELIS WOULD TAKE THE PACKAGE THAT YOU OFFERED, IF ALL THE HOSTAGES WILL BE BROUGHT BACK AND WE SHALL HAVE A CEASE-FIRE OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT.

AND WE SHALL HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, RELEASE PALESTINIAN HOSTAGES, BUT AGAIN, THEY WILL ACCEPT A FUTURE REALITY OF TWO STATES.

MY PRIME MINISTER DO NOT REPRESENT THE ISRAELI PEOPLE, AND UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, HE'S LEADING US, AND WE SHALL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL RESERVES WILL COME BACK AND WE SHALL TAKE TO THE STREETS AND WE SHALL EXPLAIN IN MANY, MANY ACTIONS AND WORDS WHAT WE, THE ISRAELI PEOPLE, DO REALLY WANT, AND HOPEFULLY WE SHALL HAVE ELECTIONS.

IN FEW MONTHS.

AND WE SHALL FIND THE RIGHT -- THE RIGHT WAY TO -- TO A BETTER FUTURE.

>> CAN I ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK, BECAUSE YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT IT, WHAT IS THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTION THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS, AND MAYBE A LOT OF ISRAELIS HAVE, ABOUT PALESTINIANS?

YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT MISCONCEPTIONS.

>> RIGHT.

THERE ARE TWO LEVERS OF THEM.

FIRST, ON THE POLITICAL LEVEL, THE MISCONCEPTION WAS LED BY NETANYAHU DURING THE LAST 14, 15 YEARS, WHEN HE WAS IN POWER, AND WE CALL IT MANAGING THE CONFLICT.

OR SHRINKING THE CONFLICT, WHATEVER YOU CALL IT.

THE IDEA WAS THAT WE HAVE TO RULE AND SEPARATE, MEANING WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT HAMAS WILL STAY IN POWER IN GAZA, AND IN ORDER FOR -- TO DO IT, HE INCREASED, OR, HE EMPOWERED HAMAS, LEADING QATAR TO SEND MONEY, AND, YOU KNOW, DOING EVERYTHING IN ORDER FOR HAMAS TO STAY IN POWER.

AND ON THE SAME WAY, TO DECREASE THE POWER OF -- BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN VIOLENCE.

SO, PALESTINIANS, THE PERCEPTION OF HAMAS, MOST OF THEM DO NOT ACCEPT THE THEOLOGY OR THE RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY OF HAMAS, THEY SEE HAMAS AS THE ONLY ORGANIZATION WHO FIGHT FOR THEIR FREEDOM.

SO, MOST PALESTINIANS, YOU KNOW, LEFT ABU, TODAY, WILL NOT GET MORE THAN 50% OF SUPPORT AMONG PALESTINIANS.

THIS WAS A MISCONCEPTION, BECAUSE THE IDEA, WE CAN CONTROL THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE BY HAMAS IS SOMETHING THAT WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

WE, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT UNDERSTANDING THE IDEA OF HAMAS.

HAMAS IS AN ORGANIZATION, IT'S NOT ONLY A MILITARY ORGANIZATION.

HAMAS LEADING AN IDEA OF A GREATER PALESTINE, FROM THE JORDAN TO THE SEA, DURING THE '90s, THEY DID NOT GET SUPPORT FROM MORE THAN 15% OF THE PALESTINIANS, BECAUSE FINALLY, PALESTINIANS WANT A BETTER FUTURE AND THEY ACCEPT THE REALITY OF TWO STATES.

SO, THIS WAS EMPOWERING HAMAS, DECREASING THE POWER OF PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY ON THE POLITICAL LEVEL.

ON THE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL, AGAIN, THE IDEA THAT HAMAS IS DETERRED WAS A HUGE MISTAKE, BECAUSE I USED TO SAY, WE MEASURE HARDWARE AND THEY MEASURE SOFTWARE.

MEANING, WE SAW AFTER MAY 21 THAT WHEN THEY SUFFERED A MAJOR DEFEAT ON THE -- ON THE MILITARY GROUND, BECAUSE THEY LOST MANY COMBATANTS AND TERROR ACTIVISTS, AND MILITARY INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT THEY DON'T CARE.

WHAT THEY DO CARE IS THE SUPPORT OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND WE SAW THAT AFTER THIS MILITARY DEFEAT, THE SUPPORT OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WAS DOUBLED.

SO, THE IDEA IS THAT HAMAS IS -- THEY WILL NOT ATTACK, YOU KNOW, BROUGHT US TO BELIEVE THAT THEY WILL NOT ATTACK.

WE MOVE ALL OUR TROOPS TO THE WEST BANK AND TO THE NORTH, AND THIS IS WHAT BROUGHT TO THE HORRIBLE EVENTS OF THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER.

>> MR. AYALON, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO HEAR YOU SORT OF ANALYZE THIS.

SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU, DO YOU BELIEVE -- YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT HAMAS AS AN IDEA.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IN THE DAY AFTER THAT YOU ENVISION, THE TWO STATES, YOU KNOW, LAESHGSS, ALL OF THAT, BOTH IN ISRAEL AND ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE, THAT HAMAS, THE IDEA, THE POLITICAL HAMAS, WILL HAVE ANY ROLE IN A FUTURE SOLUTION?

OR DO YOU SEE -- GO AHEAD, TELL ME.

>> NO, NO, OF COURSE.

I MEAN, I CANNOT DESTROY IDEAS.

AND FOR ME, I HAVE TO TALK TO EVERYBODY WHO ACCEPT THE IDEA OF TWO STATES.

RIGHT?

HAMAS WANT TO PLAY A POLITICAL ROLE, THEY WILL HAVE TO AGREE TO THE -- ALL THE, YOU KNOW -- TO THE DECISIONS OF THE PLO.

BECAUSE THE PLO IS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED TO THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE UNLESS YOU ACCEPT THE U.N.

RESOLUTIONS, SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS, AND THE IDEA OF TWO STATES.

WHICH PALESTINIANS, MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS, AND MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS, CAN LIVE WITH.

SO, ONCE YOU ACCEPT THIS CONCEPT, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO REMIND MYSELF AND TO YOU, WE HAVE ABOUT 50% OF FUNDAMENTALLY JEWISH SUPREMACY, RACISM, WHATEVER YOU CALL THEM, THEY BELIEVE EXACTLY AS HAMAS BELIEVE, THAT THIS LAND BELONGS TO GOD, AND WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GIVE IT TO ANYBODY.

AND IT'S THE SAME FOR HAMAS.

YOU KNOW, THEY SPEAK IN THE LANGUAGE OF ISLAM, AND WE SPEAK IN THE LANGUAGE OF JUDAISM, BUT THE TRAGEDY OF THE REGION IS THAT DURING THE LAST 20, 30 YEARS, THE TWO MINORITIES LED US TO KILL EACH OTHER.

YOU KNOW, JEWISH TERRORISTS ASSASSINED OUR PRIME MINISTER AND PALESTINIAN, HAMAS TERRORIST, YOU KNOW, KILLED OUR CIVILIANS.

BUT FINALLY, THERE ARE TWO MINORI MINORITIES, LESS THAN 20% OF BOTH SIDES.

AND WE, THE MAJORITY OF THE TWO SIDES, WITH THE ROLE, THE MAJOR ROLE OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, AND TODAY, ESPECIALLY TODAY, WHEN, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN IS PERCEIVED AS AN ULTIMATE LEADER, BECAUSE HE FILLED A VACUUM OF LEADERSHIP IN ISRAEL, AND I BELIEVE THAT HE HAS AT LEAST IN THE EYES OF THE ISRAELIS THE POLITICAL POWER TO LEAD US TO THE RIGHT WAY, AND THE RIGHT WAY IS THE REALITY OF TWO STATES.

>> THAT IS SO INTERESTING YOU SAY THAT, BECAUSE EVERY TIME HE CAN, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU REJECTS ANYTHING THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS SAYING IN THIS REGARD.

BUT ONE FINAL QUESTION, YOU ARE A FORMER NAVAL, YOU KNOW, LEADER, AS WELL, AND I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK, AND HOW YOU THINK, THE WHOLE SHEBANG IN THAT AREA, WHETHER IT'S HOUTHIS FIRING, WHETHER IT'S THE U.S. AND THE UK TRYING TO STOP THEM FIRING, WHETHER IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, THE IRANIANS AND THEIR PROXIES AND HEZBOLLAH AND -- WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS HEADING?

ARE YOU AFRAID THAT IT'S REALLY GOING TO EXPLODE INTO A MUCH WIDER WAR?

>> I'M WORRIED, I'M NOT AFRAID.

FEAR IS NOT A STRATEGY.

BUT I'M WORRIED.

YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL.

BUT FINALLY, IT IS NOT A CONFLICT BETWEEN PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS ANYMORE.

ORIGINAL CONFLICT AND IN SOME ASPECTS, WITH GLOBAL IMPACT.

WE HAVE TO CREATE AN OPPOSITE COALITION, LED BY EUROPE, AMERICA, A COALITION OF STABILITY.

MEANING, U.N., EUROPE, AMERICA, AND IN THE REGION, LED BY SAUDI ARABIA, EGYPT, JORDAN, EMIRATES, MOROCCO, AND ISRAEL, TO CONFRONT THE AXIS OF INSTABILITY.

AND WHAT WE SEE IS PART OF IT, BUT THE WHOLE PICTURE, AGAIN, WE HAVE TO BE PART -- WE, THE ISRAELIS, HAVE TO BE A LEGITIMATE MEMBER IN THIS COALITION OF STABILITY AND WE CANNOT DO IT UNLESS WE CHOOSE -- WE CHOOSE THE REALITY OF TWO STATES.

>> I REALLY HEAR YOU, AND I THINK THAT YOU CLEARLY WANT TO GET THAT MESSAGE OUT, YOU'VE DONE ALMOST NO INTERVIEWS SINCE, IN FACT, I THINK THIS IS YOUR SECOND INTERVIEW ONLY SINCE OCTOBER 7th, AND YOU WANT TO MAKE CLEAR THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE AN EXIT STRATEGY WITH A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

CAN I ASK YOU A SLIGHTLY MORE LOCAL QUESTION?

THERE IS A BIG CRISIS RIGHT NOW WITH THE U.N. AGENCY THAT HAS BEEN DESIGNATED TO LOOK AFTER PALESTINIAN REFUGEES, UNRWA.

AS YOU KNOW, THE U.S. AND OTHERS HAVE SUSPENDED FUNDING, THE ISRAELIS HAVE SHARED INTELLIGENCE, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY, BUT MANY ARE -- HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN OCTOBER 7th.

SO, THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING, BUT MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHAT IS THE OPTION TO UNRWA?

IS ISRAEL GOING TO PROVIDE THE AID?

DOES UNRWA NEED TO BE DISBANDED?

WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, CATER TO THE NEEDS OF THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA?

>> WELL, I TOTALLY -- FIRST OF ALL, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH, WE HAVE TO STOP WHAT UNRWA IS DOING NOW, DURING THE LAST, I DON'T KNOW, SEVERAL YEARS.

WE JUST SAW IT NOW.

I BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL DO NOT HAVE ANY INTEREST AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE HAVE THE, YOU KNOW, THE LEGITIMACY TO DO IT.

IN THE EYES OF THE PALESTINIANS OR -- AND IT WOULD NOT BE SUPPORTED BY THE ISRAELIS.

I THINK THAT THE U.N. HAS THE SUPPORT OF THE NOTED DONORS, TO UNRWA, WILL HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER FRAMEWORK, ORGANIZATION, AND I KNOW THAT THERE ARE SEVERAL OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS WHO SHOULD DO IT.

ITSELF, AND WHETHER UNRWA ITSELF CAN, YOU KNOW, REPAIR THIS HORRIBLE, YOU KNOW, INTERVENTION IN WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER, SO I REALLY BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD NOT OPPOSE -- IT IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT FOR US THAT PEOPLE -- THAT THE PEOPLE WHO SUFFER IN GAZA WILL GET THEIR SUPPORT.

THE LAST THING THAT WE CAN SAY IS THAT WE WANT TO SEE IS A HUMANITARIAN DISASTER.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, IF WE DO NOT DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE SHALL SEE.

>> AMI AYALON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND AS PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU CONTINUES TO RESIST THE IDEA OF A PALESTINIAN STATE, ISRAEL'S ALLIES KEEP APPLYING THE PRESSURE.

BRITAIN'S FOREIGN SECRETARY DAVID CAMERON HAS EVEN SAID THEY'LL CONSIDER RECOGNIZING A PALESTINIAN STATE.

A MOVE HE BELIEVES WOULD HELP MAKE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, QUOTE, AN IRREVERSIBLE PROCESS TO END THIS WAR.

THE UK IS ALSO PLAYING A KEY ROLE DEFENDING THE RED SEA AGAINST THE HOUTHIS.

CAMERON IS CURRENTLY ON HIS FOURTH VISIT TO THE MIDDLE EAST, CONSOLIDATING BRITAIN'S ROLE AS A KEY U.S.

ALLY IN THIS CRISIS.

ALICIA KEARNS IS CHAIR OF THE UK FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE IN PARLIAMENT AND RECENTLY RETURNED FROM A VISIT TO WASHINGTON AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW LIVE IN THE STUDIO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> LET ME FIRST ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT FOREIGN SECRETARY, FORMER PRIME MINISTER, HE'S KNOWN AROUND THE GLOBE AND HE DOESN'T SAY THINGS OFF THE CUFF.

AND HE SAID IT TO A PRIVATE RECEPTION OF ARAB DIPLOMATS.

CAN YOU TELL US, WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT IN THE FORM OF THE FOREIGN MINISTER WENT THIS FAR?

IT'S THE FIRST TIME THAT THE BRITISH HAVE EVER SAID THAT.

>> SO, I HAVEN'T EXPECTED IT AND I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE CAN SAY THEY HAD.

FOR ME, WE'VE SEEN A REAL CHANGE IN TONE, ATTITUDE, AND BEHAVIOR FROM THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT SINCE DAVID CAMERON CAME BACK AS FOREIGN SECRETARY.

AND HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN FULL-WELL THE WEIGHT OF THOSE WORDS THAT HE SAID ONLY LAST NIGHT, NIGHT BEFORE.

THE QUESTION IS, DOES HE MEAN IT, ARE WE MOVING THAT THAT, OR ARE WE SAYING TO THE ISRAELIS, WE WILL MOVE THIS PLACE THAT YOU DON'T WANT US TO, BUT I THINK IT'S THE RIGHT MOVE.

AND I THINK IN THE SAME WAY, ANYONE THAT WOULD DENY ISRAEL'S STATEHOOD SHOULD BE CONDEMNED, ANYONE THAT WOULD DENY PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD SHOULD ALSO BE CONDEMNED.

>> THIS IS WHAT HE'S WRITTEN IN "THE MAIL" ON SUNDAY.

WE MUST GIVE PEOPLE OF THE WEST BANK AND GAZA THE POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE OF A CREDIBLE ROUTE TO A PALESTINIAN STATE AND A NEW FUTURE.

THIS IS NOT ENTIRELY IN OUR GIFT, BUT BRITAIN AND OUR PARTNERS CAN HELP BY CONFIRMING OUR COMMITMENT TO A SOVEREIGN, VIABLE, PALESTINIAN STATE, AND OUR VISION FOR ITS COMPOSITION.

AND CRUCIALLY, WE MUST STATE OUR CLEAR INTENTION TO GRANT IT RECOGNITION, INCLUDING AT THE UNITED NATIONS.

SO, AS I'VE BEEN SAYING, YOU KNOW, THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER PUBLICLY HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, SAYING NO, WE DON'T WANT THAT.

BUT JUST, FOR PEOPLE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SUBTLETY OF WHAT CAMERON HAS SAID, BECAUSE GENERALLY, THE WEST ACCEPTS A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

WHAT'S THE MISSING PIECE THAT HE'S FITTING IN NOW?

>> THE MISSING PIECE IS GIVING , RECOGNIZING PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD.

SO, WHAT HE'S SAYING -- >> UNITED STATES HAVEN'T.

>> THE UNITED STATES ABSOLUTELY HAVEN'T.

SO, WHAT HE'S SAYING IS FULL RECOGNITION, NOT JUST BEEN THE UK, BUT HE'S SAYING THE UK WILL LEAD AN EFFORT AT THE U.N. TO SEE THEM RECOGNIZED, AND THAT MUST MEAN THAT HE'S HAD A CONVERSATION WITH THE UNITED STATES BEHIND THE SCENES, BECAUSE WE WOULD NEED THEM TO COME ALONGSIDE.

SO, I THINK IT'S A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT.

IT'S A BIG POLICY SHIFT.

AND THAT WILL HAVE A VERY STRONG IMPACT ON ALL INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS GOING ON.

BUT IT'S THE SORT OF BIG SHIFT I WANT THE UK TO BE LEADING ON.

WE ARE GOOD AT HARD CORE DIPLOMACY, WE HAVE THE RIGHT PEOPLE TO BE DELIVERING THAT MESSAGE.

>> AND JUST TO POINT OUT, IT'S THE FIRST TIME, AND THE PLO REPRESENTATIVE HERE, IN OTHER WORDS, THE GROUP THAT ACTUALLY RECOGNIZES ISRAEL, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, HE SAYS, THIS IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT MOMENT, IN RELATION TO WHAT CAMERON SAID.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME A UK FOREIGN SECRETARY DOES SAY THAT THE RECOGNITION OF THE STATE OF PALESTINE IS NOT LINKED TO A FINAL AGREEMENT WITH ISRAEL, IE, FINALLY REMOVING ISRAEL'S VETO OVER PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD.

IS THAT A CORRECT INTERPRETATION?

I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE ISRAELI BUY-IN, DON'T YOU?

>> SO, WE DO NEED ISRAELI BUY-IN, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, NO STATE HAS THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE THE SOVEREIGNTY OF ANOTHER, AND THAT UNFORTUNATELY IS THE POSITION WE'RE IN.

WE CAN'T ALLOW ISRAEL TO SAY THAT THE PALESTINIANS HAVE NO RIGHT TO THEIR OWN HOMELAND.

IF WE BELIEVE IN A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, IT FOLLOWS THAT WE RECOGNIZE AND WILL RECOGNIZE PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD, BUT THAT SECOND PIECE HAS BEEN MISSING FROM THE PUZZLE.

SO, THIS IS AN ENORMOUS SHIFT.

AND NOW LET'S HOPE THAT WE SEE OTHER PARTNERS AROUND THE WORLD MOVE IN THE SAME WAY.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE ALMOST COMING TO A HEAD IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, THE AMERICANS ARE TALKING ABOUT IT, CAMERON HAS ADVANCED IT, THE EUROPEANS, AND EVEN ISRAELIS WHO ARE NOT IN THE GOVERNMENT, YOU JUST HEARD FORMER SHIN BET CHIEF AMI AYALON, HE BASICALLY SAID, WE CAN'T EVEN JUDGE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT HAD AN EXIT PLAN DELIVERED BY THE GOVERNMENT.

AND THE ONLY THING THAT IS GOING TO MAKE ISRAEL AND PALESTINIANS SAFE, SECURE, AND ELIMINATE ANYTHING LIKE OCTOBER 7th AGAIN IS A POLITICAL RESOLUTION AND A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

SO, THAT'S ALSO GAINING A LOT OF TRACTION IN CERTAIN QUARTERS IN ISRAEL.

>> I SUSPECT ACTUALLY IN QUITE SIGNIFICANT QUARTERS WITHIN ISRAEL.

THIS WAS A GOVERNMENT WHO, FOR WHAT, 37, 38 WEEKS, HAD 100,000 PEOPLE, ISRAELIS, OUT ON THE STREETS, CAMPAIGNING AGAINST NETANYAHU.

THIS IS THE MOST ULTRA FAR RIGHT GOVERNMENT WE'VE SEEN IN ISRAEL FOR A LONG TIME.

SO, THERE'S REALLY NO SURPRISE THERE'S A REAL SHIFT WHEN IT COMES TO THIS.

BUT IN TERMS OF THAT DIPLOMATIC WILL, TOO MANY CONVERSATIONS I'VE BEEN HAVE BEEN ABOUT THE DAY AFTER, NOT HOW WE GET TO THE DAY AFTER.

>> YEAH.

>> AND THIS TAKES US TO A BETTER PLACE OF UNDERSTANDING HOW WE SHIFT THAT WAY, AS WELL AS, AND I'M REALLY PLEASED, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN ASKING DAVID CAMERON TO DO THIS SINCE NOVEMBER, PROGRESS TOWARDS A PALESTINIAN CONTACT GROUP.

>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> SO, ESSENTIALLY, BRINGING PAST COHORT OF INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE U.S., THE UK, THE EU, AND PARTICULARLY ARAB COUNTRIES, THIS HAS TO BE AN ARAB-LED SOLUTION, WHO COME TOGETHER.

I WORKED IN THE SYRIA CONTACT GROUP.

BUT FOR ME, WHAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN YET THAT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE IS THOSE TRACK TO NEGOTIATIONS.

ACTIVISTS, ACADEMICS, WOMEN, YOUNG PEOPLE, TAKE THE POLITICIANS OUT THE ROOM, I KNOW AS A POLITICIAN IT MAY SOUND IRONIC THAT I'M SAYING THAT, BUT BRING TOGETHER THOSE TWO GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHO WILL TALK ABOUT WHAT THEIR VISION IS FOR THE FEW FUTURE, WITHOUT POLITICIANS WHO ARE REALLY PERFORMING FOR A VERY NARROW BASE.

>> I WANT TO READ YOU A QUOTE THAT I KEEP COMING BACK TO, AND FOR ME, IT'S THE HEART OF THE ISSUE.

IT ESSENTIALLY IS THE CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR AND THE CHIEF ISRAELI NEGOTIATOR AROUND OSLO.

AND AT ONE OF THE MEETINGS, THE PALESTINIAN SAID, WE HAVE LEARNED THAT OUR REJECTION OF YOU, TOWARDS HIS ISRAELI COUNTERPART, WILL NOT BRING US FREEDOM.

YOU CAN SEE THAT YOUR CONTROL OF US WILL NOT BRING YOU SECURITY.

WE MUST LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE IN PEACE, EQUALITY, AND COOPERATION.

SO, THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, BACK, YOU KNOW, IN THE MID '90s.

AND IT'S STILL THE TRUTH, CORRECT?

I MEAN -- >> YEAH.

>> DO YOU SEE ANY OTHER WAY TO BRING ISRAEL THE SECURITY IT NEEDS AND THE PALESTINIANS THE FREEDOM AND THE STATEHOOD THEY NEED, BECAUSE EVEN YESTERDAY, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WAS OUT IN THE WEST BANK, HE WAS SAYING, NEVER GOING TO AGREE TO THIS DEAL.

>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

AND IT IS HEARTBREAKING THAT SOMETHING CAN BE SO PRESENT TODAY THAT WAS BEING SAID IN THE 1990s.

YOU CANNOT BOMB AN IDEOLOGY OUT OF EXISTENCE.

THE ONLY WAY THAT YOU REDUCE THE RADICALIZING NARRATIVE, AND THE TREATMENT OF THE PALESTINIANS HAS BEEN THE NUMBER ONE RADICALIZING NARRATIVE FOR EVERY GROUP IN THE WORLD THAT COME FROM AN ISLAMIC BACKGROUND, WE HAVE TO HAVE LONG-TERM SECURITY AND PEACE.

BUT IT'S NOW TO JUST ABOUT THE DIPLOMATIC.

HOW ISRAEL PROSECUTES THIS WAR, AND I WISH THEY'D CALL IT A COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATION, HOW THEY PROSECUTE IT WILL ALSO DETERMINE THAT STABILITY.

WHICH IS WHY WE NEED TO SEE SUCH A SHIFT IN THE LANGUAGE.

WE CONTINUE TO SEE FROM THE ISRAELIS, IT'S NOT BRINGING US CLOSER TO A SOLUTION WHERE THERE IS STABILITY FOR ALL.

>> WHAT IS HAPPENING AS FAR AS YOU KNOW INSIDE GAZA?

I KNOW BRITAIN HAS SOME HUMANITARIAN ACTIVITY THERE, YOU'RE TRYING YOUR BEST.

YOU HAVE JUST PUBLICIZED SOMETHING THAT WAS LITTLE KNOWN, AND THAT IS, WITHIN OF YOUR HOSPITALS WAS ATTACKED?

>> YEAH.

SO, THERE'S A UK CHARITY, THEY'VE BEEN DELIVERING ON THE GROUND AND BRINGING IN BRITISH DOCTORS.

ON THE 22nd OF DECEMBER, MAP TOLD THE UK DEFENSE FORCES AND CONFIRMED IT THAT THEY HAD THIS BUILDING IN A SAFE ZONE, THE ISRAELIS DECLARED IT A SAFE ZONE, AND YET, DESPITE HAVING BEEN TOLD BY THE IDF, VIA THE UK DEFENSE ATTACHCE THAT IT WAS A SAVE ZONE, ON THE 16th OF JANUARY, IT WAS BOMBED BY AN F-16 ISRAELI JET AND THERE WERE FOUR BRITISH DOCTORS INSIDE.

NOW, WE ARE VERY LUCKY THEY WERE HURT AND NOT KILLED.

BUT OBVIOUSLY, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, MAP HAVE NOW HAD TO REMOVE THEIR OPERATIONS.

THE IRC SHARED THAT SITE, SO, I'D BE SPEAKING TO DAVID ABOUT THIS, WHO IS VERY CONCERNED.

BOTH MAP AND THE IRC ARE SAYING, WE CANNOT TAKE ANY FOREIGN DOCTORS BACK INTO GAZA NOW.

IT IS NOT SAFE.

BECAUSE DESPITE THE IDF GIVING US REASSURANCES THAT THIS SITE, COMPLETELY ISOLATED, NO NEIGHBORING BUILDINGS AROUND IT, IT'S SURROUNDED BY SAND, THERE'S NO FEASIBILITY THAT THERE WERE TUNNELS UNDERNEATH, DESPITE HAVING CONFIRMATION, IT WAS STILL BOMBED.

>> AND DID YOU -- YOU KNOW, DID YOU BRING THIS UP WITH THE IDF?

>> SO, I RAISED IT SO FAR WITH OUR GOVERNMENT AND I'VE SAID TO ANDREW MITCHELL, THE DEPUTY FOREIGN SECRETARY, WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT THIS?

I KNOW IT'S BEEN RAISED WITH THE ISRAELIS.

THE ISRAELIS ARE SAYING THEY'LL DO AN INVESTIGATION.

I THINK NOW IS THE TIME FOR THE UK TO BE VERY CLEAR, THAT TIME HAS PASSED.

THE U.N. ARE MEANT TO BE DOING AN INVESTIGATION.

I'D LIKE TO SEE THE RESULTS OF THAT, AS WELL.

BUT IT'S DIFFICULT TO SEE HOW THIS CAN BE JUSTIFIED.

A SAFE ZONE, DeMAR KATED HUMANITARIAN BUILDING, UK AND U.S.

CHARITIES.

>> AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

WE KNOW HOW DIRE THE SITUATION IS, WE GET REPORTS FROM OUR PRODUCERS AND CORRESPONDENTS IN THE REGION WHO ARE ABLE TO CALL INTO GAZA, GET PICTURES, TALK ABOUT THE HEALTH CRISIS THERE.

THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN NOT TO HAVE THOSE BRITISH DOCTORS THERE?

>> IT'S AN ENORMOUS CRISIS, BECAUSE IT MEANS IS FOUR FEWER DOCTORS AND IT'S NOT JUST THOSE FOUR, THEY HAVE WITHDRAWN ALL THEIR FOREIGN STAFF WHO WERE PROVIDING URGENT MEDICAL AID AND EXPERTISE.

ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN WITHDRAWN.

AND THEY CANNOT PUT THEM BACK, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TRUST THAT ANY OF THEIR STAFF WILL BE SAFE.

SO, YOU HAVE NO FOREIGN STAFF FROM THOSE CHARITIES CURRENTLY ON THE GROUND, CERTAINLY FROM MAP.

SO, THEY NEED THE REASSURANCES THEY CAN OPERATE AGAIN, BECAUSE THEY ARE DESPERATE TO GO BACK IN AND HELP.

BUT IN TERMS OF ISRAELI TARGETING, AND I HAVE RAISED THIS, WHAT ARE THE TARGETING PROSEE SURCEDURES ARE THE ISRAELIS FOLLOWING?

THIS TARGET, THE SPECIFICS, HOW COULD THEY HAVE SIGNED THAT OFF?

WE KNOW LAWYERS SIT IN THE ROOM FOR EVERY SINGLE AIR STRIKE, SO, WHAT LAWYER SIGNED THIS OFF?

>> SO, YOU SPEAK AS A BRITISH PARLIAMENTARY, YOU KNOW, COMMITTEE HEAD, THIS IS NOT JUST ME TALKING TO AN ANALYST.

HOW MUCH DOES IT TROUBLE YOU THAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM WITH UNRWA, THE U.N. ORGANIZATION THAT IS DESIGNED TO HELP WITH RELIEF IN GAZA, FOR THE PALESTINIANS?

THAT THEY HAVE SHARED INTELLIGENCE AND THE BRITS HAVE SUSPENDED FUNDING, THAT A CERTAIN NUMBER OF THEM, WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY, THEY SAID 12 FIRST, NOW MAYBE 10% OF THE 13,000 MEMBERS, ARE HAMAS AND SOME OF THEM, SOME 12 OR SO, ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTED, OPERATED, CONDUCTED, REALLY TERRIBLE THINGS ON OCTOBER 7th.

>> IF UNRWA STAFF COMMITTED ANYTHING TO THOSE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, THAT IS AN ENORMOUS BETRAYAL OF TRUST.

NOT LEAST OF THE U.N., BUT FOR THEIR FELLOW PALESTINIANS.

HOW DARE THEY PUT AT RISK AN ORGANIZATION THAT'S WORKING TO BRING AID?

THE STATE DEPARTMENT SAID ONLY TODAY, NO ORGANIZATION IS BETTER PLACED AT DELIVERING AID MORE EFFECTIVELY THAN UNRWA.

THEY SAID THEY WILL RUN OUT OF AID BY THE END OF FEBRUARY IF THEY DO NOT GET MORE SUPPORT, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN DEFUNDED.

I RAISED THIS QUESTION MYSELF WITH THE HEAD IN NOVEMBER WHEN I MET WITH HIM IN PERSON, AND I CHALLENGED HIM ON THE SECURITY CLEARANCES AND CHECKS THEY WERE DOING FOR THEIR STAFF.

HE WAS CONFIDENT THAT THERE WERE REGULAR CHECKS TAKING PLACE, BECAUSE THIS IS A QUESTION THAT THE BRITISH PARLIAMENT HAS BEEN DISCUSSING FOR AWHILE, AROUND TEXTBOOKS AND JUST DELIVERY OF AID AND PARTICIPATION WITH HAMAS.

THEY ARE OPERATING A VERY DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT, BUT THAT'S WHY THE U.N.

NEEDS TO FINISH THIS INVESTIGATION AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, MAKE SURE IT IS INDEPENDENT, AS WE UNDERSTAND IT WILL BE, AND THEN WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT AID IS GETTING BACK INTO GAZA, BECAUSE -- >> AND THE CHARGES ARE REALLY SERIOUS.

AGAINST THAT DOZEN.

>> THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY SERIOUS.

AND IF THOSE PEOPLE ARE GUILTY, THEY NEED TO BE -- GO THROUGH A CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, BUT THE PROBLEM IS, IF UNRWA ISN'T THERE DELIVERING AID AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT SAID NO ONE ELSE CAN PICK UP THAT SPACE IN THE WAY THEY WERE, WE RISK BEING, I BELIEVE, IN BREACH OF OUR ICJ INTERIM RULING, WHICH SAID THAT ISRAEL HAS TO ALLOW SUFFICIENT AID IN, AND THERE ARE REPERCUSSIONS FOR ALL OF US WITH OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT, BUT ALSO, THERE IS AN ACTIVE CRISIS GOING ON ON THE GROUND.

WE CANNOT ALLOW COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT AND CANNOT ALLOW PEOPLE NOT TO GET THE AID THEY NEED.

SO, WE'RE IN A VERY DIFFICULT POSITION.

WE HAVE NO TRUCK FOR THOSE WHO HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HAMAS OR DEFENDED THEM, BUT WE DO NEED TO GET AID IN, AND THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION IS NOT BROKEN, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT WE DON'T ALLOW CERTAIN NARRATIVES FROM THOSE WHO WANT TO PUSH THAT TO ACHIEVE.

>> ON A DIFFERENT ISSUE, BUT EQUALLY IMPORTANT, THE UKRAINIANS CONTINUE TO ATTEMPT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST RUSSIA'S INVASION.

YOU'VE JUST COME BACK FROM THE UNITED STATES.

DID YOU GET ANY SENSE THAT THE POLITICIANS IN THE HOUSE ARE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, UNFREEZE THIS MILITARY AID?

>> SO, I CAME BACK WITH A SLIGHTLY COMPLICATED PICTURE, WHICH WAS MORE SUPPORT FROM UKRAINE THAN YOU MIGHT BELIEVE FROM THE OUTSIDE, AND I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING, ALL OF US WITH A MESSAGE THAT WE, IN OUR COUNTRIES, OUR POLITICAL SYSTEMS, THINK YOU'RE GOING TO CASH OUT, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO STAND BEHIND UKRAINE.

ACTUALLY SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE REMAINS INCREDIBLY HIGH ON THE HILL, HOWEVER, THEY ARE WILLING TO EXCHANGE THAT SUPPORT FOR THEIR DOMESTIC POLITICAL ARGUMENTS, AND THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE BORDER.

THEY DON'T WANT MORE MONEY FROM BIDEN, THEY WANT A CHANGE IN POLICY ON THE BORDER WHEN IT COMES FOR IMMIGRATION.

SO, I WAS LEFT WITH MORE CONFIDENCE THEY SUPPORT UKRAINE, BUT THE FACT THAT THEY'RE WILLING TO COMPROMISE THAT FOR PERSONAL GAIN, THAT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU COULD SEE IN THE UK.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A BIT MORE ABOUT THAT.

BECAUSE TODAY, ALSO, THE HEAD OF THE -- NATO IS THERE, THE SECRETARY-GENERAL, WHICH IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THIS FREEZING OF THE AID.

>> I SAW BROAD SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, BUT THEN, OF COURSE, THERE'S THIS LINK TO THE BORDER ISSUE, WHICH I RESPECT, IT'S AN IMPORTANT AND DIFFICULT ISSUE, BUT I BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE TO FIND A WAY FORWARD TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

>> CAN I JUST SAY, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AND WHAT HE'S SAYING REMINDS ME, AND I JUST HAD A FLASHBACK, OF WHAT EUROPEAN LEADERS TRIED TO PERSUADE TRUMP ABOUT THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL AND THE CLIMATE DEAL.

THEY TRIED TO PERSUADE HIM NOT TO PULL OUT AND THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY COULD -- AND YOU ALL THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD TALK SENSE, BUT IT'S MAGA AND THE TRUMP WING THAT ARE STOPPING THIS, RIGHT?

I MEAN, BY AND LARGE.

>> YEAH.

>> LINKING IT.

YOU KNOW, WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE RESULT IF UKRAINE -- I MEAN, YOU'RE SEEING WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GROUND IN UKRAINE.

HOW DO YOU ASSESS WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GROUND?

>> ONE OF MY MESSAGES, A FEW MESSAGES TO AMERICANS, ONE IS, WE ARE WITH YOU.

YOU ARE NOT ON YOUR OWN.

AND WHAT WAS AMAZING TO ME WAS THE ABSENCE OF UNDERSTANDING THAT EUROPE HAS COMMITTED $160 BILLION OF SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, YOU KNOW, ESTONIA'S GIVEN ALL OF ITS HOWITZERS.

SO, IN TERMS OF COST, THAT COST TO EUROPE, LET ALONE WITH THE REFUGEE SUPPORT, IS FAR MORE SIGNIFICANT.

SECONDLY, THE THREAT OF PUTIN SEEMS TO HAVE DROPPED OFF THE POLITICAL NARRATIVE IN THE U.S. YOU MENTIONED IRAN, YOU MENTIONED CHINA, YOU CAN PASS ANY LEGISLATION YOU WANT AND THE COMMITMENT IS THERE.

SO, WE WERE TRYING TO REMIND THEM OF THE THREAT OF PUTIN.

ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION DRAFTING TRUMP'S MANIFESTO, THEY HAVE BEEN STEADFASTLY ANTI-PUTIN ALL THIS TIME.

WHERE HAS THAT GONE?

>> AND HAS IT GONE?

>> IT'S SIGNIFICANTLY DISAPPEARED.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

>> AND THE FINAL ARGUMENT, UKRAINE IS MAKING PROGRESS.

THEY HAVE MADE ENORMOUS PROGRESS SINCE SEPTEMBER, BECAUSE THEY ARE UP AGAINST THE SECOND OR THIRD BIGGEST MILITARY IN THE WORLD, THEY ARE A SMALL COUNTRY, THEY ARE DOING INCREDIBLE JOB.

AND I REJECT THIS ALMOST DISNEY-ESQUE HERO STORY THAT'S BEEN PRODUCED WHERE YOU HEAR AMERICANS SAY, UKRAINE NEEDS TO SHOW ME SOME PROGRESS.

NO, THEY DON'T.

ON A MORAL LEVEL, ON A LEGAL LEVEL, OR ANYTHING ELSE.

UKRAINE HAS NO DUTY TO SHOW PROGRESS TO YOU OR TO ME, THEY DON'T NEED TO PROVE THEMSELVES.

THEY ARE A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY INVADED.

WE NEED TO GIVE THEM ENOUGH NOT TO SURVIVE, BUT TO WIN.

AND WHAT I WAS PLEASED WITH IS THAT LAST YEAR WE WENT AND WE ASKED THEM TO GIVE A YEAR-LONG SUPPLEMENT AM.

THEY'VE NOW GOT A YEAR-LONG SUPPLEMENTAL, BUT THEY NEED TO PASS IT.

>> ALICIA KEARNS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> THE CRISIS THAT'S BEFALLEN THE PEOPLE OF GAZA HAVE GALVANIZED THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE, IN AMERICA AND ELSEWHERE.

AS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS FLEA THEIR HOMES.

REVEREND FREDERICK HAYNES AND BLACK PASTORS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES HAVE BEEN LOBBYING FOR A CEASE-FIRE, THROUGH OPEN LETTERS AND IN MEETINGS WITH WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS, AND HAYNES NOW SPEAKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THE IMPACT THIS COULD HAVE ON PALESTINIANS AND ON U.S.

POLITICS.

>> REVEREND HAYNES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THANK YOU.

>> YOU ARE THE SENIOR PASTOR OF A FAIRLY LARGE CONGREGATION IN DALLAS, WOULD YOU JUST TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF YOUR CONGREGATION?

>> YES, WE HAVE A CONGREGATION IN EXCESS OF 10,000 TO 12,000 MEMBERS.

ON SUNDAYS, WE WILL SEE ANYWHERE FROM 2,000 TO 4,000, AND THAT'S NOT TO MENTION THE ONLINE VIEWERSHIP, WHICH IS MUCH MORE, SO -- IT'S A GROWING CONGREGATION, IT'S ALSO A YOUNG CONGREGATION, AND A VIBRANT CONGREGATION THAT IS COMMUNITY CONSCIOUS AND VERY MUCH IN TUNE WITH THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN JESUS AND JUSTICE.

>> SO, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO GO BACK TO OCTOBER 7th.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU PREACHED ON THAT SUNDAY?

BECAUSE I WOULD IMAGINE, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE CONGREGATION THAT YOU HAVE, THEY WOULD EXPECT TO HEAR FROM YOU.

>> I DO REMEMBER THE THEME, AND MY INTENT, AND THAT WAS TO PROVIDE SOME KIND OF BALANCE.

ON THE ONE HAND, I WANTED TO ENSURE THAT COMFORT WAS PROVIDED TO THE VICTIMS' FAMILIES, AND ALL WHO WERE TRIGGERED BY SUCH AN EVENT.

I HAVE A COUPLE OF MEMBERS WHO WERE IN NEW YORK ON 9/11, AND SO, I KNEW THAT THERE WOULD BE COMPARISONS TO 9/11, AND THE HORRORS AND THE EVIL THAT OCCURRED ON THAT DAY.

OF COURSE, THAT LANGUAGE HAS BEEN USED SUBSEQUENT TO OCTOBER 7th, AND SO, I FELT IT NECESSARY TO PROVIDE THAT KIND OF CONSOLATION.

AT THE SAME TIME, I FOUND IT NECESSARY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE NOT MAKE THE MISTAKES THAT WERE MADE IN RESPONSE TO 9/11 IN RESPONSE TO OCTOBER 7th.

AND BY THAT, I MEAN, I THINK HISTORY HAS RECORDED THAT IN THE AFTERMATH OF 9/11, THERE WAS SUCH A DETERMINATION TO EXACT REVENGE THAT THE RESPONSE WAS DISPROPASSIONATE, AND TOO MANY INNOCENT LIVES WERE LOST IN RESPONSE TO 9/11.

9/11 WAS HORRIFIC.

THERE IS NOTHING THAT WILL EVER ASSUAGE WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT DAY.

SO, MY PRAYER WAS, MY SERMON WAS, ON THE ONE HAND, LET'S OFFER COMFORT.

AT THE SAME TIME, LET'S LEARN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY, BECAUSE IT'S WELL-KNOWN, IF YOU DO NOT LEARN FROM THE PAST, YOU END UP REPEATING IT, AND IN MANY INSTANCES, YOU MAGNIFY THE MISTAKES THAT WERE MADE IN THE PAST.

>> AND I TAKE IT THE FEARS THAT YOU EXPRESSED IN THAT SERMON HAVE, IN FACT, COME TO PASS, WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO SAY, FROM YOUR PERPERSPECTIVE?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, YES.

IT'S BEEN HORRIFYING TO WATCH THE RESPONSE, AGAIN, DISPRO PASSIONATE, AND NOT DOWNPLAYING IN ANY WAY WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

AND I HOPE THAT WE CAN ERASE THE NARRATIVE THAT YOU -- JUST BECAUSE YOU FEEL THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN DISPROPORTIONATE, DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE ERASING THE MEMORY OF THE HORRORS OF WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, BUT AGAIN, TO SEE HOSPITALS, PLACES OF REFUGE, BEING BLOWN UP, SO, YES, MY WORST FEARS HAVE BEEN REALIZED, AND MY WORST FEARS ARE A LIVING NIGHTMARE FOR THOSE WHO ARE LIVING IN GAZA.

>> YOU ARE ONE OF MORE THAN 1,000 BLACK PASTOS IN THE U.S. WHO ARE CALLING ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO SUPPORT A CEASE-FIRE IN THE -- IN ISRAEL'S, YOU KNOW, WAR ON HAMAS.

HOW DID THIS KIND OF ORGANIZATION, THIS DECISION TO SORT OF MAKE A STATEMENT AS A GROUP, COME TO PASS?

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WELL, MANY OF US, OF COURSE, ARE A PART OF GROUP TEXT, AND WE BEGAN TO EXPRESS IN OUR COMMUNICATION OUR DISGUST WITH WHAT WAS GOING ON.

AND AS THE NOTIFICATIONS INCREASED, AS THE NEWS BROADCASTS CONTINUED TO SHOW THE NIGHTMARE UNFOLDING, IN WHAT SO MANY OF US HAVE LABELED THE HOLY LAND, WE BECAME INCREASINGLY IMPATIENT WITH THE RESPONSE OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

AND SO, WHAT BEGAN AN INFORMAL TEXT MESSAGES CONVERSATIONS GOING BACK AND FORTH, SOME OF MY BELOVED COLLEAGUES SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO WAY THAT WE CAN JUST LIMIT THIS CONVERSATION TO OUR GROUP TEXT.

WE HAVE TO STAND.

WE HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING.

WE HAVE -- WE HAVE TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN US FOR US TO BE POOR STEWARDS OF OUR LEADERSHIP RESPONSIBILITY.

AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT MANY OF US HAVE IN-ROADS IN THE ADMINISTRATION, AND SO, WE ASKED FOR A MEETING WITH THE ADMINISTRATION, SO THAT WE COULD EXPRESS OUR CONCERNS IN A WAY THAT WAS RESPECTFUL, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, REFLECTING A SENSE OF URGENCY OVER WHAT WE CONSIDERED TO BE A STATE OF EMERGENCY.

>> YOU MENTIONED THAT A NUMBER OF PASTORS HAVE MET WITH THE ADMINISTRATION, WHO DID THEY MEET WITH?

>> RIGHT, REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE MIN STATION.

IT WAS NOT THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, BUT REPRESENTATIVES, THOSE WHO I WOULD SAY ARE -- THEY HAVE -- THEY HAVE AUTHORITY, BUT OF COURSE, THEY ARE REPRESENTATIVES.

WE FELT WE WERE HEARD, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE FELT THAT IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE MEETING, BUSINESS AS USUAL CONTINUED, AND SO GIVEN THAT, WE FELT THAT THE ONLY THING WE HAD TO DO NOW WAS TO LOOK FOR WAYS TO EXERT AS MUCH PRESSURE AS WE COULD FROM A MORAL PERSPECTIVE, BECAUSE THAT BASICALLY IS WHAT WE ARE DOING.

YOU MENTIONED THE 1,000 PASS PASTORS WHOSE NAMES WERE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES."

SINCE THAT PARTICULAR PIECE OCCURRED, I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW MANY OTHER PASTORS SAID, I WISH YOU WOULD HAVE INCLUDED ME, I WISH YOU WOULD HAVE REACHED OUT TO ME.

SO, THE NUMBERS ARE MUCH MORE.

>> REVEREND HAYES, WHAT DO YOU THINK JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE MEANS IN THIS MOMENT?

YOU KNOW, AFTER EVERYTHING THAT HAS ALREADY TRANSPIRED, WHAT IS TRANSPIRING NOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS?

AND THE SECOND QUESTION TO THAT WOULD BE, DO YOU THINK JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE CAN COEXIST WITH SECURITY FOR ISRAEL?

>> WITHOUT QUESTION.

MY PREDECESSOR AT RAINBOW PUSH, THE ICON REVEREND JESSE JACKSON, COINED THE PHRASE SECURITY FOR ISRAEL, JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE.

OF COURSE, IT'S REMIXED DURING PROTESTS IN THE STREETS, WHERE WE SAY NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE.

BECAUSE THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN JUSTICE AND PEACE.

THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN JUSTICE AND SECURITY.

AND SO, I THINK WHEN REVEREND JACKSON SAYS SECURITY FOR ISRAEL, JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE, OF COURSE JUSTICE HAS A RESTORATIVE COMPONENT TO IT.

JUSTICE HAS A COMPONENT TO IT THAT SAYS, WE HAVE TO REBUILD.

WE HAVE TO RESTORE WHAT HAS BEEN BROKEN.

AND SO, RIGHT NOW, JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE NOT ONLY INCLUDES A CEASE-FIRE, AND THE SAFE PASSAGE OF HUMANITARIAN AID, BUT ALSO REBUILDING ON THE TERMS OF THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THE LAND THAT HAS BEEN DESTROYED.

RESTORING IT TO THEM, ENSURING THAT THEY HAVE THEIR LAND ON THEIR TERMS.

IF THEY HAVE THEIR LAND ON THEIR TERMS, THAT HAS BEEN REBUILT, THE HOSPITALS, THE HOMES, THE SCHOOLS, ALL OF THEM HAVE TO REBUILD.

>> SO, WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU WANT PRESIDENT BIDEN TO DO?

BECAUSE, IN FACT, LOOK, HE HAS, YOU KNOW, HE FAMOUSLY WENT TO ISRAEL, THE FIRST SITTING PRESIDENT TO VISIT ISRAEL, YOU KNOW, AT WARTIME, HE HUGGED THE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, BUT HE ALSO, AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE SAID WHAT YOU SAID, LEARN THE LESSONS OF 9/11, BE PROPORTIONATE IN YOUR RESPONSE.

>> YOU CAN SAY THAT, BUT YOU CONTINUE TO FUND THE CARNAGE.

WE ALL KNOW THAT THIS COUNTRY GIVES A HUGE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES TO ISRAEL THAT HAS GONE TO -- THAT HAS GONE TO FUND A LOT OF WHAT IS TAKING PLACE RIGHT NOW, AND SO, WE HAVE THE MORAL AUTHORITY, BUT ALSO, THE FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY.

IF WE WED THOSE TWO AND SAY, MR. NETANYAHU, WE WILL NO LONGER GIVE YOU FINANCIAL RESOURCES, WE WILL NO LONGER GIVE YOU MILITARY RESOURCES AND STAND BY, WATCHING THE CARNAGE UNFOLD, THAT IS A PROFOUND STATEMENT.

IT'S ONE THING TO TALK IT, IT'S ANOTHER THING TO WALK IT.

AND EXERT IT.

>> IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT WORRIES THAT THE CRITERIA SIMILAR OF PRESIDENT BIDEN MAKES IT EASIER FOR FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP TO GET BACK INTO OFFICE?

>> OF COURSE.

AND I'M ASKING MR. BIDEN TO LEARN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY.

1968, LYNDON JOHNSON HAD DONE SOME AMAZING THINGS DOMESTICALLY.

WE HAVE, BECAUSE OF LYNDON JOHNSON, THE '64 CIVIL RIGHTS BILL, THE '65 VOTING RIGHTS BILL.

SOME WONDERFUL THINGS TOOK PLACE, BUT HIS FOREIGN POLICY DISRUPTED THE COUNTRY IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT SET THE STAGE FOR ANOTHER ADMINISTRATION TO COME IN AND THEY CAME IN, IRONICALLY, ON A SOUTHERN STRATEGY THAT WAS RACE-BASED.

A SOUTHERN STRATEGY THAT WAS WHITE SUPREMACY-FUELED.

AND I'M SIMPLY ASKING MR. BIDEN, AS YOU PROUDLY CALL YOURSELF A ZIONIST, AS YOU PROUDLY SAY YOU STAND BY ISRAEL ALMOST BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, THAT IS OFFENSIVE TO TOO MANY, FIRST OF ALL, FROM A HUMANITARIAN PERSPECTIVE, BUT THEN YOU HAVE PALESTINIANS LIVING RIGHT HERE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO ARE OFFENDED BY WHAT -- BY THE STANCE OF MR. BIDEN, AND SO, YES, MR. BIDEN HAS DONE SOME GOOD THINGS, THAT CANNOT BE DENIED.

IN THIS INSTANCE, I'M CONCERNED THAT HE'S GETTING IN HIS OWN WAY AND WHEN HE GETS IN HIS WAY, HE MAY WELL BE GETTING IN THE WAY OF THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY, OR THE LACK THERE OF IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> SOME PEOPLE LOOK AT THE SAME HISTORY YOU JUST CITED AND DRAW THE OPPOSITE CONCLUSION.

THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT ABANDONED LBJ IS WHAT PAVED THE WAY FOR A -- A RICHARD NIXON, WHO HAD ZERO SYMPATHY FOR AND INTEREST IN THEIR GOALS, BUT THERE ARE THOSE THAT WOULD SAY, THAT'S EXACTLY WHY YOU NEED TO PUT ASIDE THOSE FEELINGS AND SUPPORT THIS PRESIDENT, BECAUSE -- BECAUSE HIS -- THE ALTERNATIVE IS WORSE.

WHO HAS ZERO SYMPATHY FOR THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE, AND MOST OTHER THINGS THAT PROGRESSIVES CARE ABOUT.

AND WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> YEAH, I SAY THAT EXACTLY.

THE OTHER SIDE WOULD BE DISASTROUS.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT WOULD BE MULTIPLIED, WHAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

THAT CANNOT BE DENIED.

I ALSO WILL CLAP BACK AND SAY, IT'S NOT THAT THE CENTER-LEFT ABANDONED LBJ, LBJ ABANDONED THE PRINCIPLES AND VALUES OF THE CENTRAL LEFT.

AND WE'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW, MR. BIDEN HAS ABANDONED THE PRINCIPLES OF REDEEMING THE SOUL OF AMERICA, HE'S ABANDONED THE CENTER LEFT.

AND SO, WE'RE CALLING HIM BACK.

LEARN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY, MR. PRESIDENT.

>> ARE YOUR CONGREGATES TALKING ABOUT THE ELECTION YEAR?

AND, YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT IT IS AN ELECTION YEAR, DOES THAT COME UP IN YOUR CONVERSATIONS?

AND ARE THEY -- ARE THEY TALKING TO YOU ABOUT TRUMP AND BIDEN, AND IF SO, WHAT DO THEY SAY?

>> OH, WITHOUT QUESTION.

AND THIS IS THE EARLIEST.

I'VE BEEN PASTORING 40 YEARS, SO, I'VE SEEN A NUMBER OF PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEARS.

THIS IS THE EARLIEST THAT I HAVE EXPERIENCED AN ENERGIZED CONVERSATION ABOUT THE ELECTION I'VE EVER EXPERIENCED.

AND I HAVE TO BE HONEST, IT'S -- IT'S -- I WON'T SAY IT'S FRIGHTENING, BUT IT'S CONCERNING.

IN LIGHT OF THE STUBBORNNESS THAT IS PERCEIVED AS IT RELATES TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND THEIR POSTURE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND SO, I'M HEARING CONVERSATIONS AND THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE SAYING, OH, I'M GOING TO VOTE, AND I'M NOT CRAZY ENOUGH TO VOTE THE OTHER SIDE, I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR MR. BIDEN, I'LL GO THIRD PARTY.

WELL, MY CLAPBACK IS, WELL, THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO MOUNT A SERIOUS THREAT, AND SO, A VOTE FOR A THIRD PARTY IS A VOTE FOR WHO YOU REALLY, REALLY DON'T WANT, AND SO, THAT ESCALATES THE CONVERSATION, BUT I'M STILL NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR MR. BIDEN, AND, YOU KNOW, SO -- IT'S -- I MEAN, THE CONVERSATIONS ARE, HOW SHOULD I PUT IT -- THE TEMPERATURE IS A LOT HIGHER THAN IT NORMALLY IS, BECAUSE THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE REALLY, REALLY CONCERNED.

I ALSO HAVE MEMBERS WHO WILL SAY, WELL, IT'S BACK TO VOTING FOR THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS.

I HOPE MR. BIDEN DOES NOT WANT TO BE CONSIDERED THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS, BUT THAT'S WHAT MANY ARE SAYING.

>> YOU KNOW, AT THE START OF THE WAR, THERE WAS THIS POLL TAKEN BY THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE, IT FOUND THAT 48% OF BLACK RESPONDENTS SAID AT THAT TIME THAT THEY DIDN'T FEEL CONNECTED TO EITHER THE ISRAELI OR PALESTINIAN SIDE, OR PLIGHT, I GUESS I WOULD SAY.

>> YEAH.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S CHANGED?

>> OH, WITHOUT QUESTION.

THAT HAS CHANGED.

ESPECIALLY -- I WOULD WONDER IF THAT POLL INVOLVED OR ENGAGED YOUNG PEOPLE.

BECAUSE WHEN I LOOBLG AT THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN MY CONGREGATION AND IN THE COMMUNITY, THE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ON FIRE, BECAUSE, AGAIN, THIS IS A GENERATION THAT, ON THEIR CELL PHONES, THEY HAVE NOTIFICATIONS COMING AT THEM ALL OF THE TIME, AND THOSE NOTIFICATIONS, I PROMISE YOU, CONTINUE TO ENRAGE WHAT THEY SEE AS THIS COUNTRY BEING COMPLICIT IN WHAT IS GOING ON, BECAUSE THEY FEEL A CONNECTION WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE PALESTINIANS.

>> AND WHY IS THAT?

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> THEY CAN ALSO RELATE TO, BECAUSE WE ARE ONLY 3 1/2 YEARS REMOVED FROM THE SUMMER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

WE ARE ONLY 3 1/2 YEARS REMOVED FROM BREONNA TAYLOR AND WHAT HAPPENED TO SO MANY DURING THAT SUMMER WHEN WE SAW IN REAL TIME SUCH HORRORS, AND SO, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A -- A RESPONSE FROM THE WORLD COMMUNITY, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE WORLD COMMUNITY, TO THE HORRORS THEY SAW IN THE UNITED STATES THAT WAS TAKING PLACE.

AND I PROMISE YOU, THAT SAME -- THAT SAME DEMOGRAPHIC -- >> YEAH.

>> THEY HAVE A MORAL COMPASS, A MORAL CONSCIOUSNESS, THAT SAYS, WITH MARTIN KING JR., JUSTICE ANYWHERE IS A THREAT TO JUSTICE EVERYWHERE.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE JUSTICE FOR ALL, THERE'S NOT JUSTICE AT ALL.

>> AS WE ARE SITTING NOW, 30,000 PEOPLE -- AT LEAST 30,000 PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY BEEN KILLED.

>> YES.

>> AND, YOU KNOW, HUGE SWATHS OF THE GAZA STRIP HAVE ALREADY BEEN DESTROYED.

AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY BEEN DISPLACED.

AND I JUST WONDER IN SOME WAYS, IS IT ALMOST TOO LATE?

>> WELL, I BELIEVE IT'S NOT TOO LATE.

I THINK IT BECOMES TOO LATE IF THIS LINGELINGERS.

IT BECOMES TOO LATE IF WE DO NOT IN A RESPONSIBLE WAY NEGOTIATE HEALING, A HEALING PROCESS, TO A STRIP THAT HAS BEEN DEVASTATE AND BROKEN.

IT'S TIME FOR AMERICA TO STEP UP AND PROVIDE MORAL, CLEAR LEADERSHIP AND IF THAT TAKES PLACE, AND HEALING BEGINS, THEN THE GOOD NEWS IS, THINGS CAN TURN AROUND.

BUT HEALING, AND I MUST SAY THIS, MUST BE ON THE TERMS OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BROKEN.

THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HURT.

AND NOT ON OUR TERMS, IMPUTING WHAT WE THINK HEALING IS, AS AN EMPIRE THAT PARTICIPATED IN THEREVEREND, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, WE END TONIGHT ON A DIFFERENT NOTE.

REMEMBERING ONE OF BROADWAY'S BRIGHTEST LIGHTS.

CHITA RIVERA, WHO DIED PEACEFULLY ON TUESDAY, SHE WAS 91.

ORIGINATING ROLES IN "CHICAGO" AND "WEST SIDE STORY."

SHE WAS BELOVED BY THE NATION, RECEIVING THE SPECIAL TONY LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD, AND THE PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM.

IN LIGHT OF HER PASSING, PRESIDENT BIDEN NAMED THIS TRIPLE THREAT SINGER, DANCER, ACTOR, QUOTE, AN ALL-TIME GREAT OF AMERICAN MUSICAL THEATER.

WHILE RITA MORENO CALLED RIVERA THE ESSENCE OF BROADWAY.

THAT IS IT FOR NOW, AND WE WANT TO LEAVE YOU WITH THIS CLIP OF RIVERA IN THE 1960s, DOING WHAT SHE ALWAYS DID BEST.

PERFORMING A COVER OF A 1935 FOLK SONG, "I GOT PLENTY OF NOTHING."

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

I GOT NO CAR GOT NO MISERY GOT A LOCK ON THE DOOR AFRAID SOMEBODY'S GONNA ROB