Amanpour and Company

>>> NOW AS WE MENTIONED, THE REPORTS OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S PRIVATE OPINION OF THE PRIME MINISTER COMES AS THE SECRETARY OF STATE IS IN THE MIDDLE EAST PUSHING FOR PEACE AMID THE ESCALATING WAR OUR NEXT GUEST DESCRIBES THE MOMENT IN THE REGION AS A DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL.

ARIAL ANGEL IS THE EDITOR IN CHIEF OF THE JEWISH CURRENTS MAGAZINE IT WAS FOUNDED 80 YEARS AGO AND ESTABLISHED ITSELF AS A SPACE FOR PROGRESSIVES TRYING TO ESTABLISH JEWISH IDENTITY OUTSIDE OF WHAT WE WOULD CALL A THE MAGAZINE HAS DOUBLED ITS SUBSCRIBERS SINCE LAST YEAR.

ARIELLE ANGEL SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE DIFFICULT SITUATION AT THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S NOT EASY TO TALK ABOUT BUT OCTOBER 7 WAS A SHOCK TO EVERYONE.

IF I COULD JUST ASK YOU, TAKE ME BACK TO ONE YEAR AGO.

WHAT WERE THE CONVERSATIONS WITHIN THE MAGAZINE ABOUT WHERE THE MAGAZINE SHOULD STAND?

HOW SHOULD WE DEAL WITH THESE EVENTS?

>> FIRST OF ALL I WILL SAY OCTOBER 7 WAS A LOT OF THINGS , VERY DIFFICULT.

I COULD SAY FOR SURE IT WAS A SHOCK BECAUSE IF YOU WERE WATCHING THESE EVENTS CLOSELY THE WARNING SIGNS WERE FLASHING THAT WE WERE RIPE FOR AN ATTACK LIKE THIS AND SUPPORT FOR ARMED RESISTANCE WITHIN THE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITIES WAS RISING BECAUSE OF THE COMPLETE COLLAPSE OF DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION AND THE WAY THE ACCORDS IN PARTICULAR SIGNALED TO THE PALESTINIANS THAT THERE WAS NO CHANCE OF THEM GAINING THEIR FREEDOM.

SO IN FACT, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EXACTLY THIS WITHIN THE JEWISH CURRENTS.

WE WERE LISTENING TO COMMENTATORS AND ANALYSTS WHO WERE SPEAKING TO US AND WE KNEW THAT THIS WAS COMING.

>> HOLD ON A SECOND SO YOU AREN'T SAYING THAT THIS WAS THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT.

WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME IS, THESE WERE ACTIVE CONVERSATIONS THEN, BEFORE OCTOBER 7 PAST?

>> ABSOLUTELY ANYONE WHO'S BEEN WATCHING THE CONVERSATION AND SITUATION CAREFULLY, THEY COULD SEE THERE WOULD BE AN INCREASE OR AN EXPLOSION OF VIOLENCE.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE EXPECTED IT --I DON'T THINK THEY EXPECTED THE ISRAELI DEFENSES TO CRUMBLE AS MUCH AS THEY DID WHICH WAS REALLY A SURPRISE.

OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, THE HORROR OF THE ATTACK IS A SHOCK TO THE SYSTEM NO MATTER WHAT.

IN TERMS OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE ATTACK LIKE THIS, WE WERE READING TEXTS TOGETHER TO HELP US PREPARE FOR THE SITUATIONS.

WE KNEW ALSO THAT THERE WAS REALLY NO WAY FOR US TO PREPARE AND THAT IT WOULD SHATTER OUR COMMUNITIES AND IT WOULD SHATTER OUR ORGANIZING COMMUNITIES.

MANY PEOPLE WITHIN THE JEWISH COMMUNITIES THAT READ JEWISH CURRENTS WERE GOING TO HAVE A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO THE EVENT OR A PROFOUNDLY DIFFERENT RESPONSE FROM MANY OF OUR PALESTINIAN PARTNERS OR READERS.

WE STRUGGLED WITH THIS.

>> YOU ARE A MAGAZINE, YOU'RE THOUGHTS.

WHAT WERE SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID?

>> IT TOOK US FIVE DAYS TO PUBLISH.

IT WAS INTENTIONAL.

I FELT WE NEEDED TO SLOW DOWN AND NOT ONLY BE REACTIVE BUT THINK ON WHAT THE RESPONSIBILITY WE HAD WAS IN THIS MOMENT AND HOW WE WOULD RESPOND.

THE FIRST THING WE DID , WE COLLECTED QUESTIONS FROM THE READERSHIP ABOUT WHAT THEY FELT CONFUSED ABOUT AND TRY TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS AND THERE WERE MORE EMOTIONAL WORK.

HOW DO I TALK TO MY FAMILY?

HOW DO I RECOMMIT THE PALESTINIAN LIBERATION IN THIS MOMENT EVEN IF I KNOW SOMEONE WHO WAS KILLED IN THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACK?

PARSING ZIONISM, NON-ZIONISM, ANTI-ZIONISM, PEOPLE'S RIFTS WITHIN THEIR FAMILIES, SEVERE RIFTS THAT MAY NEVER BE PREPARED.

WE HAD A NUMBER OF IN PERSON GATHERINGS.

THE QUESTION OF GRIEF WAS A HOT BUTTON ISSUE.

PARTICULARLY BECAUSE MANY JEWISH PEOPLE WERE FEELING GRIEF.

THERE ARE REAL CONNECTIONS, FAMILIAL CONNECTIONS AND OTHERWISE BETWEEN AMERICAN JEWISH PEOPLE AND THOSE LIVING IN ISRAEL.

WE DID NOT WANT THE GRIEF TO BE WEAPON EYES ON BEHALF OF A MILITANT RESPONSE FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND LEANED INTO REPORTING BECAUSE WE FELT THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT NEEDED TO GET OUT.

WE DID DISPATCHES FROM THE WEST BANK AND GAZA AND WHAT PEOPLE WERE EXPERIENCING AND ALONG SIDE OF THE POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS IN THE MOMENT.

WE DID REPORTING ON HOSTAGE FAMILIES BECAUSE IN THE UNITED STATES THERE'S THIS SENSE THAT RINGING HOME THE HOSTAGES MEANS MORE MILITARY ACTION WHEN, OF COURSE, IN ISRAEL, THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES HAD BEEN CLEAR WHAT THEY WANT IS A DEAL AND AN EXCHANGE OF PRISONERS AND HOSTAGES ON PALESTINIANS SIDE.

SO, WE TRIED TO ROOT IN THE QUESTIONS WE WERE ASKING OURSELVES WITH THE MISCONCEPTIONS THAT WERE CIRCULATING IN THESE NARRATIVES.

>> I'VE GOT TO ASSUME IT IS THIS THE FACT THAT CONTRIBUTES TO HAVE THEY BEEN AFFECTED DIRECTLY?

ONE OF YOUR CONTRIBUTORS.

YOU GOT CONTRIBUTOR'S I BELIEVE WHO HAVE LOST FAMILY MEMBERS AND GAZA.

>> NOT ONLY THAT , WE HAVE PUBLISHED DISPATCHES FROM PEOPLE AND GAZA FOR THEM TO BE KILLED THE NEXT WEEK.

THE CARNAGE IS UNIMAGINABLE.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS YOUR JOB RIGHT NOW?

AS I READ IT , IT SEEMS LIKE WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO IS TO HOLD SPACE FOR THE THOUGHTS AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO HOLD TOGETHER BUT THE GRIEF, THE INTENSE GRIEF OF WATCHING THIS MASSACRE ON OCTOBER 7 TAKE PLACE IN REAL TIME, WE WERE MEANT TO SEE IT IN REAL TIME.

THE PERPETRATORS FILMED IT AND LIVE STREAMED IT, THEY WANTED US TO SEE THIS.

THE CARNAGE IN GAZA , SOME OF US AS NEWS ORGANIZATIONS, WE STILL HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL REPORTING THERE.

WE ARE SEEING THAT IN A WORLD THAT IS INCREASINGLY CRITICAL OF ISRAEL.

ALSO, RISING INCIDENTS OF ANTI- SEMITISM.

>> IT'S A GOOD QUESTION .

FIRST OF ALL LET ME SAY THAT 30% OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY GENERALLY HOLDS VIEWS THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH NON-OR ANTI-ZIONISM AND THE NUMBER RISES TO 40% UNDER 44 UNDER THE AGE OF 44.

OUR JOB IN SOME WAY IS TO HOLD THIS 40% OF A YOUNGER GENERATION AND 30% OF THE COMMUNITY OVERALL TO ALLOW THEM AWAY TO BE JEWISH AND CLAIM THEIR JEWISHNESS WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF OR IN THE FRAMEWORK OF JUSTICE AND LIBERATION FOR PALESTINIANS AND ALSO TO FIGHT FOR THAT FROM THEIR PARTICULAR POSITION ALLERGY, PARTICULARLY AS THE POSITION AUDI HAS BEEN WEAPON EYES THROUGH THE ACCUSATIONS OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

WE KNOW ANTI-SEMITISM RISES INDIRECTLY CORRELATES TO THE NUMBER OF PALESTINIANS THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT KILLS.

BROWN UNIVERSITY PUT OUT A STUDY WHICH SAYS THE DEATH TOLL IN GAZA COULD BE CLOSER TO 100,000 IF NOT MORE.

SO WHEN YOU HAVE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THAT IS CLAIMING TO SPEAK FOR JEWISH PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD THERE WILL BE RISING ANTI-SEMITISM AND AT THE SAME TIME, THE CONFLATION OF ANTI- ZIONISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM IS MUDDYING THE WATERS SUCH THAT IT'S BECOME DIFFICULT TO ACTUALLY ADDRESS THE ANTI- SEMITISM IN SUCH A WAY THAT HAS CREDIBILITY AND WHAT ADDRESSES THE REAL PIECES OF THIS.

>> COULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE?

WHEN YOU SAY ZIONISM, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

AND WHEN YOU SAY INTO ZIONISM WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

BECAUSE AS YOU HAVE ALLUDED TO, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WOULD ARGUE ANTI-ZIONISM IS ANTI- SEMITISM AND THAT THERE ARE OTHERS WHO WILL ARGUE WHO ARE CLOSELY RELATED TO THAT IS THAT IT'S A PROXY FOR ANTI-SEMITISM.

THEY ARE EXPERIENCED IN THE REAL WORLD IN THE SAME WAY.

>> IT'S AN IDEOLOGY FOUNDED IN THE LATE 19th CENTURY BY THEODORE HARTSELL, JUDAISM IS A RELIGION AND CULTURE OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

ZIONISM WAS NEVER WITHIN JEWISH COMMUNITIES AND BECAME SO OVER THE 20th CENTURY BUT THERE WAS A JUDAISM BEFORE ZIONISM AND THERE WILL BE ONE AFTER.

SO JUST AS WE WOULD CRITICIZE ANY OTHER STATE AND PARTICULARLY ESTATE THAT MEETS THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF APARTHEID HAS MANY HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS HAVE ASSERTED MEANING THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT, THERE'S A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE OF ONE GROUP AND PEOPLE OF ANOTHER, WE COULD CRITICIZE THAT STATE.

THERE ARE WAYS PEOPLE HAVE PARSED THIS SAYING WE THINK IT'S OKAY TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL BUT THERE ARE VARIOUS WAYS TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL AND CROSSES INTO ANTI-SEMITISM.

THAT IS TRUE.

THERE'S ANTI-SEMITISM IN OUR MOVEMENTS JUST AS THERE IS SEXISM OR RACISM OR HOMOPHOBIA AND ABEL IS HIM AND WE HAVE TO WORK TO ROOT THOSE OUT THAT'S PART OF THE CULTURE AND NOT PART OF OUR MOVEMENTS OR INHERENT IN ANTI-ZIONISM.

>> WHAT IS ANTI-ZIONISM TO YOU?

>> I WAS RAISED ZIONIST AND IN A ZIONIST COMMUNITY AT HOME.

FOR ME, WHAT THAT MEANT WAS HAZY.

IT MEANT I BELONGED TO THIS COMMUNITY ON SOME LEVEL.

I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW.

WHEN I STARTED TO DO ACTIVIST WORK FOR PALESTINE I DIDN'T CALL MYSELF AN ANTI-ZIONIST OR THINK ABOUT ZIONISM BECAUSE I BARELY KNEW WHAT I WAS AND I THINK IT'S COMMON WITHIN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY.

IT'S A MARKER OF BELONGING WITHOUT A VERY FIRM DEFINITION.

ESSENTIALLY WHAT IT MEANS FOR ME NOW IS TWOFOLD.

IT MEANS THAT I RECOGNIZE WHAT PALESTINIANS HAVE EXPERIENCED AS ZIONISM, THE PRIMARY WAY OF UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT MEANS BECAUSE IT HAS MEANT A DIFFERENT SET, A DIFFERENT STANDARD ON EQUALITY AND NOT HAVING FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT.

BEING TRIED IN DIFFERENT COURTS ACCORDING TO DIFFERENT LAWS OR NOT HAVING THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR THE GOVERNMENT WHICH CONTROLS THEIR LIVES.

ALL OF THESE FACTORS ARE WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

IN MANY CASES IT MEANS BEING KILLED OR MASSACRED AT WILL AND CERTAINLY WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN GAZA.

IT MEANT ESSENTIALLY ETHNIC MASS MURDER.

I HAVE A DAIS FOR DICTATION OF JUDAISM WHICH MANY ORTHODOX PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD SHARE THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT BEING JEWISH FOR ME THAT IS ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE STRANGER IN A CERTAIN SENSE AND THAT NATIONALISM AND PARTICULARLY THIS TYPE OF NATIONALISM CONFLICTS WITH THIS VISION FOR ME.

>> THERE'S A WELL-KNOWN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WRITER WHOSE WRITING THIS BOOK AND HE TALKS ABOUT A LOT OF THESE THINGS.

PEOPLE BASICALLY CALLED HIM A TERRORIST FOR SAYING THESE THINGS OR SAYING HE SYMPATHIZES.

WHEN YOU SAY THESE THINGS TO PEOPLE CALL YOU A TERRORIST?

>> ABSOLUTELY WE ALSO ARE CALLED CAPOS LIKE WHO WERE PUT IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS BY THE OVER OTHER AND OVERSAW THEIR KILLING IN MANY CASES .

WE ARE CALLED VERY NASTY THINGS WITHIN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY THE LIST GOES ON.

WHAT IS MADDENING ABOUT THIS IS WE ARE TRYING TO SAY AT THIS LEVEL IS THAT PALESTINIANS DESERVE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS AND EQUALITY AND DIGNITY AND REPARATIONS FOR THE PLUNDER OF THEIR HOMES AND THE RIGHT TO RETURN TO THOSE HOMES UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW.

THESE ARE INTERNATIONAL LAWS THAT WERE CREATED AFTER THE HOLOCAUST TO STOP SOMETHING LIKE THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN AND PRECISELY BECAUSE THERE IS A PROCESSION OF ISRAEL, KIND OF LIKE THE INHERITORS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND THE TRAUMA.

IT'S HARD TO BREAK THROUGH THAT AND TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO SEE THE BASICS OF WHAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

>> IT MUST BE PARTICULARLY GALLING TO YOU AND TO OTHERS WITH WHOM YOU WORK.

AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOUR FATHER'S FAMILY WERE SURVIVORS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND YOUR MOTHER'S FAMILY WERE ARABFROM AN AREA FORMERLY KNOWN AS PALESTINE.

I'M THINKING, TO COME FROM THE HERITAGE OF SURVIVAL AND TO BE CALLED SOME OF THESE NAMES MUST BE --.

>> IT'S ENORMOUSLY PAINFUL.

MY DAD'S PARENTS WERE SURVIVORS FROM AUSCHWITZ.

FRANKLY, IT'S NOT ABOUT ME.

WE ARE DOING THIS WORK BECAUSE OF THE IMAGES THAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW, SPECIFICALLY COMING OUT OF GAZA.

PEOPLE BEING BURNED ALIVE, PEOPLE BEING CARRIED, THE REMAINS CARRIED IN PLASTIC BAGS.

WE HAVE TO RESPOND TO THIS, NOT JUST AS BUT AS AMERICANS AND AS GLOBAL CITIZENS.

A WORLD WHICH WILL ALLOW THIS TO GO ON IS THE SAME WORLD THAT ALLOWED THESE THINGS TO HAPPEN IN THE 1940S AND ALLOWED MY GRANDPARENTS TO BE IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS.

I UNDERSTAND NOW IN A VISCERAL WAY HOW THIS WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.

>> HOW DO YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION OF THOSE WHO ARGUE THAT IF ISRAEL WERE TO BECOME A MULTIETHNIC, OWELTY RACIAL DEMOCRACY AS THE UNITED STATES STRIVES TO BE, IF THE TABLES WERE TURNED AGAIN, THAT JEWISH PEOPLE WOULD BE SUBSUMED IN THIS PARTICULARLY GIVEN THAT THAT LAND IS SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO SHOE WHO DO NOT SHARE THIS AND HAVE BEEN HOSTILE TO ISRAEL FOR GENERATIONS, HOW DO YOU ANSWER THIS?

WHETHER THEY ARE SAFE RIGHT NOW .

YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN ATTACKS, ALMOST EVERY DAY OR NOT EVERYDAY BUT THERE WAS ONE ATTACK ICING ON THE HIGHWAY THAT KILLED A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

THERE WERE ATTACKS AT A BUS STOP.

WE SAW AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF PEOPLE KILLED ON OCTOBER 7.

IS THIS SAFETY?

THE ARAB STATES DIRECTLY AROUND ISRAEL HAVE SAID THAT THEY WOULD ACCEPT 67 BORDERS EVEN HAMAS HAD SAID THAT AND ACTUALLY, WHAT YOU HAVE AS AN ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THEY'VE BEEN SAYING NO, WE WANT ALL OF IT.

THERE ARE NO TWO STATES, THERE IS NEGOTIATION.

WE WILL SLOG THIS OUT WITH FORCE.

I THINK IF YOU SAW A SHIFT TOWARD PALESTINIAN EQUALITY AND FREEDOM, WOULD BE SAFER.

>> THIS IS THE QUESTION THAT COMES UP IS DO YOU QUESTION THEIR RIGHT TO EXIST?

HOW DO YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION?

>> IT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION.

I DO NOT QUESTION THE RIGHT FOR TO LIVE IN SAFETY FOR WHERE THEY LIVE OR ANYWHERE THEY LIVE.

THE RIGHT TO AN S NO STATE OR STATE THAT PRIVILEGES THE RIGHTS OF ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE OVER ANOTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU COULD COUNTENANCE THAT.

THE QUESTION OF RIGHT TO EXIST HAS BECOME ONE OF THOSE QUESTIONS THAT OBSCURES RATHER THAN ILLUMINATES WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, YOU HAVE 15 MILLION PEOPLE LIVING BETWEEN THE RIVER AND THE SEA HAVE ALREADYAND HALF ARE PALESTINIANS.

IN ORDER TO CREATE A MAJORITY FOR THE JEWISH STATE YOU NEED TO DO ONE OF TWO THINGS.

ETHNIC CLEANSING AND MASS MURDER.

MANY HUMAN RIGHTS EXPERTS AND EXPERTS IN INTERNATIONAL LAW ARE CALLING THIS GENOCIDE.

IS THAT WHAT WE MEAN BY THE RIGHT TO A STATE?

>> DO YOU FEEL , WELL I WILL ASK IT THIS WAY, IS THERE ANYTHING GIVING YOUR HOPE IN THIS MOMENT?

>> IT'S A DARK MOMENT.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY.

IT'S LIKE A DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL.

I THINK THE ONLY THING GIVING ME HOPE IS THAT IT IS SO DARK THAT MAYBE IT IS THE DARK BEFORE THE DAWN?

MAYBE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING AND BUILD SOMETHING NEW ON TOP OF THE ASHES OF THE OLD AND OUT OF THE ASHES OF THE OLD.

MAYBE IS THIS THE OLD WORLD STRUGGLING TO DIE AND A NEW ONE STRUGGLING TO BE BORN?

THAT MEANS NOW IS THE TIME OF MONSTERS, AS THEY SAY.

I THINK, PERSONALLY FOR ME, I DO THIS WORK, NOT BECAUSE I HAVE HOPE, BUT I BELIEVE THIS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

WE OWE IT TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING NOT TO STOP DOING THIS.

>> ARIELLE ANGEL, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING