Amanpour and Company

>>> AND WE TURN NOW TO THE HISTORIC IMPEACHMENT TRIAL UNFOLDING IN WASHINGTON. CONVENTIONAL WISDOM PREDICTS DONALD TRUMP WON'T BE CONVICTED. NOT SO FAST, THOUGH, SAYS HEATHER COX RICHARDSON. SHE'S A HISTORIAN AND PROFESSOR AT BOSTON COLLEGE AND HER THOUGHTFUL DAILY DIGEST CALLED "LETTERS FROM AN AMERICAN" HAS BECOME A MUST-READ ANALYSIS OF MODERN POLITICS. HERE SHE IS TALKING TO WALTER ISACKSON ABOUT HER BOLD CALCULATION THAT HER MATH COULD, COULD HELP DEMOCRATS WIN A CONVICTION. >> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE. AND HEATHER COX RICHARDSON, WELCOME TO THE SHOW. >> IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE. >> WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF AN IMPEACHMENT BATTLE. PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT COULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO CONVICT TRUMP. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S POSSIBLE, THAT THE DOOR IS STILL OPEN TO THAT? >> RIGHT NOW WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THE EXTRAORDINARY CONFUSION OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN A MOMENT WHEN IT'S REALLY CRUMBLING. AND THE REASON I'LL BE WATCHING THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL WITH SUCH INTEREST IS BECAUSE I'M WATCHING THE SENATORS JOCKEY FOR CONTROL OF THE PARTY GOING FORWARD, AND HOW THEY ARE GOING TO DO THAT IS NOT AT ALL IMMEDIATELY APPARENT. TO ME ANYWAY. >> WHY DO YOU THINK THAT? >> BECAUSE I THINK THE GAME IS CHANGING. YOU KNOW, WE ARE IN THE MOMENT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY STRUGGLING FOR CONTROL BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT FACTIONS. IT IS NOT AT ALL CLEAR TO ME LOOKING AT THE INDIVIDUALS IN THE SENATE THAT IT WILL NOT BENEFIT SOME OF THEM TO VOTE AGAINST HIM. NOW, THE OTHER PIECE THAT IS HERE THAT WE HAVE NOT MENTIONED IS THAT, ACCORDING TO THE WAY THE CONSTITUTION IS WRITTEN, TWO-THIRDS OF THE MEMBERS PRESENT AT THE SENATE NEED TO VOTE TO CONVICT. NOT TWO-THIRDS OF THE MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, WHICH WOULD BE 100 PEOPLE. IF 100 PEOPLE SHOW UP, THEY NEED 17 VOTES TO CONVICT HIM. BUT IF 100 PEOPLE DON'T SHOW UP, THAT NUMBER GETS SMALLER AND SMALLER. AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT, AGAIN, WHO KNOWS. MAYBE ALL THE SENATORS WILL SHOW UP, BUT MAYBE SOME OF THEM WILL DECIDE TO STAY HOME IN ORDER TO MAKE IT EASIER TO CONVICT HIM BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO TAKE A STAND FOR OR AGAINST DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE THEY WANT BOTH THE VOTERS WHO SUPPORT HIM AND THE VOTERS WHO DON'T, BUT THEY ALSO, EVEN PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TRUMP VOTERS, DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO KEEP DONALD TRUMP AS A VIABLE POLITICAL CONCERN GOING FORWARD BECAUSE HE'S GOT HIS OWN FAVORITES THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE THEM. SO IF YOU WANT TO RUN AS A REPUBLICAN IN 2024, AS SOME OF THE YOUNGER LEADERS CLEARLY DO, YOU KIND OF WANT TO FIND A WAY TO SQUARE THIS CIRCLE AND NOT TO TAKE A STAND. IF I WERE A REPUBLICAN SENATOR RIGHT NOW, I WOULD BE LITERALLY SITTING THERE WITH A SHEET OF PAPER CALCULATING HOW I CAN BEST RETAIN MONEY AND VOTES GOING FORWARD, AND SUPPORTING DONALD TRUMP, IN FACT, MAY NOT BE THE WAY FOR ALL OF THEM TO DO THAT. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN TO THE OFFICIALS WHO WERE EITHER COMPLICIT IN THE LIE ABOUT ELECTION FRAUD OR IN THE STORMING OF THE CAPITOL? BOTH AS A MATTER OF POLITICS AND LONG-TERM HISTORY, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THEM? >> ONE OF THE PIECES THAT HAD BEEN PLAYED HERE, THAT PEOPLE TEND TO NOT LOOK AT WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE POLITICAL SIDE OF THINGS, IS THE LEGAL IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th AND THE LEAD UP TO IT. AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO COME OUT IN THE NEXT MONTHS OR YEARS ABOUT WHO WAS INVOLVED, HOW THEY SUPPORTED THE STORMING OF THE CAPITOL OR DIDN'T. SO IT'S NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR TO ME WHAT-- FIRST OF ALL, WHAT WE WILL LEARN. SECOND OF ALL, WHAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WILL DO ABOUT THAT. REMEMBER MERIT GARLAND WHO IS JOE BIDEN'S NOMINEE FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS NOT BEEN CONFIRMED BY THE SENATE. SO HE IS-- BIDEN AND HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL ARE REALLY NOT ASSOCIATED IN ANY POLITICAL WAY WITH THE CURRENT INVESTIGATION OF THE JANUARY 6 ASSAULT ON THE CAPITOL. SO THERE IS THIS RESTORATION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AS A NEUTRAL ENFORCER OF THE LAW. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE D.O.J. FLOATED A WEEK OR SO AGO WAS THE IDEA THAT THEY MIGHT BRING RICO CHARGES AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THE CAPITOL ASSAULT. RICO CHARGES ARE, IF YOU WILL, A WAY TO GET IN THE PEOPLE'S EARS AS WELL AS THOSE WHO COMMITTED THE CRIME. PEOPLE WERE CAREFUL ABOUT THE WAY THEY SPOKE, WHEN THEY SPOKE AND WHERE THEY WERE FILMED. PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE ROGER STONE-- AND I'M NOT ACCUSING ANYBODY HERE. HE IS A PERSON WHO APPEARS TO BE ADJACENT TO THIS, TO THIS EVENT. PEOPLE WHO ALSO APPEAR TO BE ADJACENT LIKE JOSH HAWLEY, FOR EXAMPLE. ALL OF A SUDDEN SEEM POSSIBLY TO HAVE MORE LEGAL EXPOSURE THAN THEY WOULD HAVE IF THEY DON'T-- IF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE USES RICO. THE REASON I MENTION THAT IS BECAUSE THAT'S GOING TO HAVE A BIG SAY ABOUT WHO GETS POLITICALLY KILLED BY THIS EVENT AND WHO ACTUALLY MANAGES TO EMERGE UNSCATHED FROM IT. SO IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO TELL GOING FORWARD BECAUSE WE ARE DEPENDENT ON WHAT HAPPENS IN THE FUTURE. SO THE DEMOCRATS ARE VERY CLEARLY, I THINK, NOT AIMING TO CONVINCE THEIR REPUBLICAN SENATORIAL COLLEAGUES IN THE UPCOMING TRIAL, BUT RATHER TO CONVINCE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WHAT HAPPENED WAS UNCONSCIONABLE. ON THAT, AS YOU KNOW FROM THE RECENT POLLS, THEY'VE ALREADY GOT A LEG UP WITH 56% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAYING THEY THINK THAT TRUMP DID INSTIGATE THE RIOT AND SHOULD BE CONVICTED IN THE SENATE TRIAL. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE TWO FACTIONS, THREE FACTIONS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE? >> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN PARTY A LOT OF PEOPLE REMEMBER FROM THEIR CHILDHOOD, THE NELSON ROCKEFELLERS, THE DWIGHT EISENHOWERS EVEN, ARE NO LONGER PART OF THE LAW MAKING WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. THEY ARE VERY MUCH A PART OF THE VOTING BLOCK, I THINK, BUT NOT THE LAWMAKERS WHO GOT TAKEN OVER AFTER THE REAGAN YEARS, ESPECIALLY IN THE 1990s BY A FACTION THAT AT THE TIME CALLED ITSELF THE MOVEMENT CONSERVATIVES. AND THEY WERE PEOPLE WHO REJECTED THE PREMISES OF THE NEW DEAL, THE IDEA THE GOVERNMENT HAD A ROLE TO PLAY IN REGULATING THE ECONOMY AND PROVIDING BASIC SOCIAL SAFETY NET AND INFRASTRUCTURE. THOSE PEOPLE GOT PURGED AFTER NEWT GINGRICH TOOK OVER THE SPEAKER SHIP. WHAT WE HAVE ARE ALREADY A SUBSET OF REPUBLICANS. WITHIN THAT NOW, WE HAVE THOSE ORIGINAL MOVEMENT CONSERVATIVES THAT ARE BEING CHALLENGED FROM THE RIGHT BY THE SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES, THE EVANGELICALS, THE NOW CONSPIRACY THEORISTS, THE RACIALLY MOTIVATED VOTERS WHO ARE SORT OF LUMPED UNDER THE IDEA OF POPULISTS WHO ARE TRYING TO WRENCH CONTROL OF THE MORE BUSINESS-ORIENTED WING OF THE PARTY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW TRUMP SUPPORTERS WHO BELIEVE IN THE-- IN THEIR MAN IN SORT OF A CULTIC PERSONALITY. RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE THE TRUMP WING, WHICH IS AN UMBRELLA FOR ALL THOSE OTHER GROUPS I JUST MENTIONED, AND THE MORE BUSINESS-ORIENTED, MORE TRADITIONAL MOVEMENT CONSERVATIVES. BOTH OF WHOM WANT TO GET RID OF THE ACTIVIST GOVERNMENT THAT WE'VE HAD REALLY SINCE 1933. BUT THEY ARE DOING SO WITH THIS INCREDIBLE FIGHT RIGHT NOW FOR CONTROL OF THE PARTY APPARATUS AND FOR THE NOMINATION IN 2024. AND THE PROBLEM IS BOTH SIDES NEED VOTERS AND BOTH SIDES NEED MONEY. SO CONTROLLING THAT PARTY IS KEY. THE REASON THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS IS SO IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW, THE TRIAL PROCESS IS SO IMPORTANT IS PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ON TRUMP'S SIDE OR AGAINST HIM. >> DO YOU THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE ROOM IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR A SENATOR MITT ROMNEY, OR FOR THAT MATTER, EVEN LIZ CHENEY? >> I DO, I DO. NOT NECESSARILY IN THE SHORT TERM, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE LONG SWEEP OF REPUBLICAN HISTORY, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE COME TO A PLACE WHERE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS SLID TOWARD A FORM OF AUTHORITARIANISM OR OLIGARCHY. IT'S DONE IT BEFORE. IN BOTH CASES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SWUNG AWAY FROM THAT. AND WITH THAT YOU'VE GOT THE SWING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AWAY FROM THAT. SO PEOPLE TEND TO FORGET THAT ALTHOUGH WE LIONIZE THEODORE ROOSEVELT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE 20th CENTURY, HE SWUNG AWAY FROM THE OLIGARCHY. HE HAD A HARD TIME DOING IT. HE WENT AROUND THE PARTY. WHICH IS THE REASON HE DOES SO MUCH BY EXECUTIVE ACTION, AND INSTEAD GOING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. AND I THINK YOU CAN SEE THAT WITH, FOR EXAMPLE, SUPER BOWL ADS. THEY WERE CONCILIATORY, THEY WERE AN ATTEMPT TO MOVE THE COUNTRY FORWARD TOGETHER. I THINK THE COUNTRY IS GOING IN THAT DIRECTION, NOT BECAUSE I SUSPECT IT'S WHAT I WANT TO SEE, BUT IT'S HIGH TIME IN TERMS OF THE WAY OUR POLITICAL PENDULUM HAS SWUNG. AND BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE CRUCIAL MOVEMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE PART OF SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES THAT ARE NOW TAKING A STAND AGAINST THE EXTREMISM THAT HAS REALLY PUMPED POLITICS, AT LEAST FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS. >> YOU SPEAK OF TEDDY ROOSEVELT HAVING HAD TO TAKE ON SOME OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WRENCH IT, MOVE IT IN HIS DIRECTION. BUT, OF COURSE, HE ENDED UP HAVING TO LEAVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. HE ENDED UP HAVING TO START A THIRD-PARTY. IS THAT A POSSIBILITY? >> WELL, SO, OF COURSE, IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO MAKE TOO CLEAR A COMPARISON THERE BECAUSE HE LEADS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, IN PART, BECAUSE HE HAD MADE THE COMMITMENT NOT TO RUN FOR A THIRD TERM AFTER HE TOOK OFFICE AFTER THE ASSASSINATION OF McKINLEY. OF COURSE, IF HE COULD HAVE-- IF HE HADN'T SAID HE WAS GOING TO LEAVE THE PARTY, HE CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE STAYED WITH THE PARTY. BUT THE FACT HE DID NOT MANAGE TO MAKE HIS PROGRESSIVE BULL MOOSE PARTY A CONCERN GOING FORWARD, THE FACT THAT ONE OF THE KEY PIECES TO THE WAY OUR SYSTEM CURRENTLY WORKS-- THE WAY IT CURRENTLY WORKS IS WE HAVE THESE TWO VERY COMPLICATED AND VERY TOP-HEAVY, IF YOU WILL, POLITICAL SYSTEMS THAT ARE VERY HARD TO TURNOUT OF THEIR CHANNEL. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY RIGHT NOW AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE REPUBLICANS-- HAVE EMAIL LISTS AND DONORS AND STATE OFFICES AND THE GENERATIONAL LOYALTY TO THAT PARTY. AND RIGHT NOW IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE DEMOCRATS AS WELL WHO ARE DOING SOMETHING VERY INTERESTING AT THE STATE LEVEL AS WELL, WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS A STRUGGLE FOR CONTROL OVER THOSE MECHANICS. AND SO TEDDY ROOSEVELT COULDN'T BREAK INTO THOSE MECHANICS DESPITE HIS ENORMOUS GROUND SWELL OF SUPPORT. I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR SOMEBODY TO TRY AND START A NEW PARTY WITHOUT TAKING THOSE CONTROLS WITH THEM. AND AGAIN, MY GUESS IS THAT SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP HAS THE ABILITY TO DO THAT. BE HARDER FOR SOMEBODY LIKE MITT ROMNEY OR LIZ CHENEY, BOTH OF WHOM ARE FROM SMALL WESTERN STATES. >> WHY IS IT THAT TRUMP HAD THE ABILITY TO WRENCH THE CONTROL OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY? >> WELL, IN 2016, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE TEND TO FORGET-- THAT'S WHY I THINK THIS MOMENT IS SO INTERESTING. WHAT PEOPLE TEND TO FORGET IS WHEN TRUMP RAN-- HE DIDN'T GOVERN THIS WAY. WHEN HE RAN, HE WAS THE MOST MODERATE OF THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES. IF YOU REMEMBER ON THAT STAGE, HE WAS THE ONE WHO TALKED ABOUT FIXING THE ACA. HE WAS THE ONE WHO TALKED ABOUT TAKING OUT THE TAX LOOPHOLES THAT CORPORATIONS WERE USING TO THEIR ADVANTAGE. HE WAS THE ONE WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT MAKING AMERICAN GOVERNMENT MORE REASONABLE THAN IT HAD BEEN IN THE PAST. OF COURSE HE DIDN'T GOVERNOR GOVERN THAT WAY. HE ALWAYS HAD THAT RACISM AND SEXISM FROM THE BEGINNING. PEOPLE SAID, THERE WAS STUFF IN THERE THAT I REALLY LIKE. HE WAS ABLE TO SWITCH PEOPLE WHO WERE WILLING TO TRY TO SMASH THE OLD SYSTEM OF POLITICS AND TRY A NEW SYSTEM OF POLITICS. AND ONE OF THE REASONS I'M FINDING THE EARLY MONTHS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SO INTERESTING IS THAT BIDEN IS DOING A LOT OF WHAT TRUMP PROMISED WITHOUT THE SEXISM AND THE RACISM. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, HE PUT INTO TREASURY JANET YELLEN, OF COURSE, WHO WENT LAST WEEK AND BEGAN TO HIRE PEOPLE TO CLOSE THOSE TAX LOOPHOLES. IT'S GOING TO BE AS MUCH AS $441 BILLION TO AMERICA TO STOP PEOPLE FROM SKIPPING OUT ON THEIR TAXES AND CORPORATIONS FROM SKIPPING OUT ON THEIR TAXES. BIDEN WENT AHEAD AND DEMANDED THAT GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS GO A MUCH HIGHER PERCENTAGE TO AMERICAN BUSINESSES. DONALD TRUMP HAD PROMISED TO DO THAT. HE HAD STARTED THE PAPERWORK TO DO THAT, BUT HE NEVER SAW IT THROUGH. BIDEN DID. SO IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF, IN FACT, THE REASON THAT TRUMP PICKED UP SO MANY VOTERS WAS BECAUSE OF THIS PROMISE TO MAKE AMERICA MORE FAIR. NOW THAT IT'S IN THE HANDS OF A DEMOCRAT DOING IT, IF, IN FACT, THAT POLITICAL MOMENTUM IS GOING TO GET BEHIND THE DEMOCRATS AS PREVIOUSLY BEHIND DONALD TRUMP. >> MOST AMERICAN HISTORIANS, AT LEAST EXPLORE THE IDEA THAT OUR HISTORY IS A LITTLE BIT LIKE A PENDULUM. IT SWINGS A BIT TOO FAR ONE WAY AND IT SWINGS BACK. DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE? AND IF SO, WHAT PENDULUM SWING MIGHT WE BE LOOKING AT NEXT? >> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I'M LAUGHING AT THE IDEA MOST AMERICAN HISTORIANS AGREE ON ANYTHING. BUT YES, WE ARE IN AN EXTREME MOMENT. WE'RE IN AN EXTREME MOMENT IN TERMS OF THE POLARIZATION OF WEALTH. AND THAT SHOWS ON ANY CHART SINCE 1981, YOU WILL SEE THAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH INCOME AND WEALTH OF THE PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM OF AMERICAN SOCIETY AND PEOPLE AT THE TOP HAVE DIFFICULT VERGED SIGNIFICANTLY. THERE IS A REASON ECONOMISTS CALL IT THE GREAT DIVERGENCE. WE ARE AT AN EXTREME FOR THAT AND FOR POLARIZATION. WE HAVE BEEN IN POLARIZED PERIODS BEFORE. THE 1850s, 1900s. THIS IS NOT UNPRECEDENTED. WHAT IS UNPRECEDENTED, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHERE THE LEADER OF THE COUNTRY, THE FORMER PRESIDENT, ACTUALLY EMBRACED THE EXTREMISM THAT SUGGESTED THAT THE GOVERNMENT NEEDED TO BE TORN APART. THAT'S UNPRECEDENTED. THAT ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6 WAS, WAS NOT SIMPLY ONE FOR THE HISTORY BOOKS IN THE 21st CENTURY, OR THE 20th CENTURY, OR IN DEMOCRACY. IT IS THE BRIGHT SPOT, THE NUCLEAR EVENT, IF YOU WILL, SO FAR IN AMERICAN HISTORY. SO THAT SUGGESTS THAT WE HAVE TWO OPTIONS. EITHER THE COUNTRY IS GOING TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD TO AUTHORITARIANISM WHICH WILL LEAD TO A FORM OF MODERN-DAY OLIGARCHY, A BIT DIFFERENT THAN FASCISM, ALTHOUGH THEY CERTAINLY RUN PARALLEL AND I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE WITH MY COLLEAGUES WHO THINK WE'RE LOOKING AT FASCISM. AMERICA SPURRED WITH FASCISM BEFORE. WE'RE SEEING IN THE TRUMP WING OF THE PARTY SOMETHING A LITTLE DIFFERENT. THAT WON'T MATTER TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IF, IN FACT THAT COMES TO PASS. THAT'S A POLITICAL THEORIST TALKING THERE. WE EITHER GO THAT DIRECTION OR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WAKE UP AND SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, THIS IS NOT WHAT WE SIGNED ON FOR. WE ACTUALLY QUITE LIKE DEMOCRACY. WE WANT TO SEE A WORKING CONGRESS AGAIN. WE WANT TO STOP THE OBSTRUCTIONISTS IN THE SENATE. WE WANT TO GO AHEAD AND HAVE LEGISLATION THAT ACTUALLY HELPS THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS. AND WE HAVE STRENGTHENED THE KNIFE EDGE IN AMERICA, AND I THINK WE STILL DO. BUT IT IS INTERESTING TO WATCH EVEN IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HOW CERTAIN CHIPS HAVE BEGUN TO FALL AWAY FROM THE TRUMP WING OF THE PARTY. AND MIND YOU, IT'S GROWING IN CERTAIN PLACES. WYOMING GOP, ARIZONA GOP ATTEMPTS OF THE GEORGIA GOP TO GO AHEAD AND SUPPRESS THE VOTE. IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS FLORIDA LEGISLATURE WHICH HAS GOTTEN A MUCH STRONGER REPUBLICAN BENT IN THE LAST ELECTION TO PUSH EXTRAORDINARILY CONSERVATIVE LEGISLATION. THAT SIDE IS CERTAINLY GROWING. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE, THE DECLARATION, FOR EXAMPLE, OF THE GEORGIA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, THAT IT IS NOT INTERESTED IN THE SUPPRESSION OF THE VOTE THAT THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE IS TRYING TO PUSH THROUGH. IF YOU LOOK AT THE FACT THAT MAJOR DONORS TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE SAYING THEY WILL NOT GIVE MONEY TO ANYBODY WHO QUESTIONED THE ELECTION OR THE COUNTING OF THE ELECTORAL VOTES FOR JOE BIDEN BECAUSE IT WAS CLEAR THEY WERE LEGAL AND THIS WAS AN ILLEGAL OPERATION. IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY THE POLITICAL CULTURE SEEMS TO BE SLIDING, THE ADVERTISEMENTS ON THE SUPER BOWL, FOR EXAMPLE, IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE WE ARE DOING WHAT WE DID IN THE 1860s AND THE TURN OF THE LAST-- THE LAST CENTURY, THE 2000 AND THE PERIOD AFTER WORLD WAR II WHEN WE RECLAIMED AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AS LINCOLN SAID, OF THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE. IT'S TIME. I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT THE TIMING OF ALL THE EVENTS I JUST SAID, WE ARE OVERDUE FOR THAT KIND OF A RENEWAL. YOU KNOW, I HAVE FAITH WE'LL DO IT. >> PROFESSOR RICHARDSON, THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH. FOR JOINING US. >> IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.