Amanpour and Company

>>> NOW, FROM THE CHANGING LANDSCAPE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO AN INCREASINGLY SECULAR AMERICA.

OUR NEXT GUEST INSPIRED BY HER OWN CONVERSION TO JUDAISM, DECIDED TO DELVE INTO THE STORIES OF MILLENNIAL WOMEN WHO HAVE DISCOVERED ORGANIZED RELIGION JUST AS SO MANY OTHERS ARE TURNING AWAY FROM IT.

JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR CHELSEA OSGOOD JOINS MARTIN TO DISCUSS HER NEW BOOK, " GOD STRUCK," SEVEN WOMEN'S JOURNEY TOWARDS RELIGION.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> LET'S SET THE TABLE HERE.

A PEW RESEARCH CENTER HERE STUDY, SHOWING THE PERCENTAGE OF AMERICANS IDENTIFY AS HAVING NO RELIGION GROWS FROM 16% IN 2007 TO 29% IN 2021.

THAT IS ALL THE MORE REASON -- YOUR BOOK IS REALLY INTERESTING -- BECAUSE YOU EXPLORE THE JOURNEYS OF SEVEN WOMEN, ALL PEOPLE KIND OF IN THEIR 30s, MILLENNIALS, INCLUDING YOURSELF, WHO EACH TURNED TO ORGANIZED RELIGION AT A TIME WHEN A LOT OF THEIR PEERS ARE NOT.

SO, FIRST OF ALL, WHY ALL WOMEN , AND WHAT STARTED YOU ON THIS JOURNEY?

>> ONE QUESTION THAT AROSE EARLY ON FOR ME WAS I THOUGHT THAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD ASSUME THAT, IF YOU WERE A WOMAN, TO JOIN -- MOST ORGANIZED RELIGIONS -- WOULD BE TO KIND OF TAKE A STEP BACKWARD, IN TERMS OF YOUR OWN FREEDOM.

MOST INTEREST OPTIONAL -- INSTITUTIONAL RELIGIONS ARE FAIRLY PATRIARCHAL IN NATURE, OR THEIR STRUCTURES REMAIN FAIRLY PATRIARCHAL TO THIS DAY.

AND, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY CAME OF AGE AND A TIME WHEN THERE WAS THE IDEA THAT WE HAD MORE AND MORE FREEDOMS, MORE AND MORE OPPORTUNITIES, AND SO, TO BE A WOMAN IS, SPECIFICALLY, TO ENTER THESE REALMS WHERE THERE WOULD BE HIGHER STANDARDS FOR ELASTICITY OR HIGHER STANDARDS FOR MAYBE THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN YOU WOULD HAVE, AND SORT OF LESS OPPORTUNITIES TO PARTICIPATE TYPICALLY IN YOUR FAITH BY HOLDING POSITIONS OF POWER, MAYBE, BUT THAT WAS A BIZARRE CHOICE.

MOST PEOPLE WOULD THINK OF THAT AS BEING A BIZARRE CHOICE.

THAT IS MOSTLY WHY I FOCUSED ON WOMEN.

THERE IS A TENSION -- A TENSION THERE WITH DATA -- THAT SHOW THAT WOMEN, MORE OFTEN, ARE THE ONES WHO CONVERT, OR WHO TEND TO BE MORE PREOCCUPIED WITH NOTIONS OF MEANING, AND TEND TO BE MORE ACTIVE IN THEIR FAITH WHEN THEY ARE RELIGIOUS.

>> AND GREW UP IN A SORT OF -- YOU DESCRIBE YOUR UP RINGING AS KIND OF DEEPLY SECULAR IN SOME WAYS, KIND OF ALMOST KIND OF ANTIRELIGIOUS, I WOULD SAY, SOMEWHAT, BUT CLEARLY SECULAR.

AND, THAT YOU ENDED UP, AS YOU PUT IT, DRAWN TO A JUDAISM THAT IS MYSTICAL, CONSERVATIVE, AND RIGOROUS.

SO, AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WOULD YOU JUST TELL US A LITTLE BIT?

>> SURE I'M NOT SURE I WOULD DESCRIBE MY CHILDHOOD ENVIRONMENT AS ANTIRELIGIOUS, SO MUCH AS JUST NEUTRAL TOWARDS RELIGION.

I GREW UP IN THE SUBURBS OF NEW YORK CITY AS A PRETTY SECULAR MILL YOU INSOFAR AS, YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T SEEM TO ME THAT ANYBODY DRIVING FORCE WAS THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEF.

PEOPLE CELEBRATED CHRISTMAS AND EASTER, BUT OUTSIDE OF THOSE THINGS, YOU NEVER REALLY HEARD OR SAW RELIGION BEING PRACTICED IN A WAY THAT WAS VISIBLE TO THE OUTSIDER.

I DECIDED REALLY, QUITE YOUNG, THAT GOD MUST NOT BE REAL, WENT THROUGH ALL THE QUESTIONING THAT PEOPLE SOMETIMES DO JUST HAPPENED TO ME MAYBE A LITTLE BIT EARLIER THAN A LOT OF PEOPLE.

I, IN MY TEENS AND EARLY-20S, I STRUGGLED WITH ANOREXIA.

IRONICALLY, IT WAS IN THOSE EARLY EXPERIENCES OF -- IN ONE HOSPITALIZATION IN PARTICULAR -- THAT I MET A NUMBER OF VERY OBSERVANT JEWS, AND I WAS SURPRISED .

I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT, IN A WAY, I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE TO BE THAT RELIGIOUS IN THE WORLD AT THAT TIME.I THOUGHT THAT, YOU KNOW, RELIGION, EVEN FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE THAT I HAD MET EARLIER ON IN MY LIFE, THEY HAD A RELATIONSHIP THAT LOOKED TO ME IN THE WAY THAT THE MOST CHRISTIANS I NEEDED.

THEY HAD A BAR MITZVAH OR MAYBE CELEBRATED RUSHES ON A OR YOM KIPPUR.

OUTSIDE OF THAT, WASN'T SOMETHING HE THOUGHT ABOUT ALL THAT OFTEN.

SO, THROUGH COLLEGE AND INTO MY EARLY AND MID-20s, IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I BECAME PROGRESSIVELY MORE INTERESTED IN.

I HAD FRIENDS IN SCHOOL WHO WERE , YOU KNOW, MIGHT LOOSELY CALL MODERN ORTHODOX, I LEARNED FROM THEM WHEN I WAS IN MY MID-20s.

I MET THE MAN I WOULD EVENTUALLY MARRY.

WHEN WE FIRST STARTED DATING, I GUESS, IN A WAY, I WAS LIKE, OKAY, THIS IS MY CHANCE.

I STARTED DOING SOME LEARNING WITH VARIOUS RABBIS WHO WERE VERY KIND TO GIVE ME THEIR TIME, AND TOOK A WILD TO REALIZE, OKAY, I THINK I WANT TO PURSUE THIS IN A WAY THAT IS REAL.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE WOMEN, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT.

THERE IS ANGELA, STARTED ATHEIST, QUEER IDENTIFY, STARTED OUT ATHEIST, JOURNALIST WITH RATIONALITY BELIEFS, DRAWN TOWARDS QUAKERISM IS WHERE SHE ENDS UP YOU TALK ABOUT LEAH, WHO IS A COMMITTED ATHEIST WHO ENDED UP CONVERTING TO CATHOLICISM.SO, WANT TO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT LEAH AND WHAT HER STORY IS AND WHY SHE WAS DRAWN?

>> SHE WAS ACTUALLY QUITE WELL KNOWN IN THE RATIONALITY COMMUNITY, AROUND THE TIME OF HER CONVERSION, AND I DON'T KNOW IF PEOPLE KNOW WHAT RATIONALITY IS, BUT IT IS A SORT OF MODERATE, PHILOSOPHICAL , AND DIFFUSE NETWORK SCHOOL, IF YOU WILL, OF PEOPLE WHO TRY TO USE SYSTEMATIC REASONING TO COME TO MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS ACROSS THE BOARD.

MORAL DECISIONS, BUT ALSO ANY DECISION CAN APPLY THIS SORT OF REASONING TOO.

SO, LEAH WAS WELL KNOWN IN THIS COMMUNITY.

SHE WAS A BLOGGER WHO WROTE ABOUT ATHEISM, SHE WAS A DEBATER AT YALE, AND SHE, LIKE THE HEADLINES FOR THAT CHAPTER, WHOSE NAME IS ANGELA, SHE WAS VERY MORALLY QUESTIONING.

SHE ASKED HERSELF A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT MORALITY, AND I SHOULDN'T SAY, WAS, IS -- I ASSUME SHE STILL ASKS THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT MORALITY -- BUT SHE FELT THAT, I THINK, THERE WERE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT REALLY NUDGED HER IN THE DIRECTION OF RELIGION.

SHE FELT VERY STRONGLY THAT MORALITY WAS SOMETHING THAT EXISTED IN THE WORLD, MEANING, LIKE, WE PEOPLE -- WE DIDN'T MAKE UP MORALITY.

WE DIDN'T DECIDE WHAT IS GOOD AND BAD, THAT IT EXISTS ELSEWHERE, BUT SHE KIND OF BRIDGED THE GAP FROM, OKAY, IF IT EXISTS ELSEWHERE, THEN WHY, OR HOW?

I CAN'T SEE IT THE WAY THAT I CAN SEE PLANTS, AND SO, THEREFORE, IF WE KNOW IT EXISTS SOMEWHERE, HOW COULD THAT BE POSSIBLE, AND THAT ULTIMATELY LED HER TO FEELING, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT WAS -- MUST BE GOD THAT CREATED THIS MORALITY, THAT MORALITY HAD AGENCY OF ITS OWN.

THIS IS ALSO VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS IDEA OF USING YOUR NATURAL REASONING TO GET TO POINTS OF IDENTIFIABLE MORALITY.

SO, I THINK THAT THAT PART RESONATED WITH HER.

>> OF COURSE, THEN, THERE IS SARA WHO EMBRACED SORT OF A PARTICULARLY KIND OF DEMONSTRATIVE FORM OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY.

THERE IS KATE, WHO BECAME A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS AFTER GOING UP -- SHE MORE THAN YOU KIND OF HAD A REAL KIND OF ANTIRELIGIOUS KIND OF UP BRINGING TO THE POINT WHERE, WHEN SHE STARTED STUDYING, YOU KNOW, MORMONISM, SHE WAS ACTUALLY AFRAID TO TELL HER PARENTS, BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE MAD.

AND THEN, HANNAH, WHO BECAME A PARENT OF A KIND OF RIGOROUS TYPE OF PRACTICE OF ISLAM, LIKE , WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THEM, BUT I WAS GOING TO TELL YOU, I WAS PARTICULARLY FASCINATED BY HANNAH, BECAUSE SHE IS NOT FROM A MIDDLE EASTERN BACKGROUND, SHE IS NOT AFRICAN AMERICAN, WHICH ARE TO GROUPS THAT HAVE PARTICULARLY EMBRACED ISLAM SHE IS A VERY SORT OF WHITE PRESENTING CHRISTIAN TO THE POINT THAT SHE WILL WEAR A FULL COVERING.

THE QUESTION ARISES, IS THIS CULTURAL APPROPRIATION, RIGHT?

IF THIS IS NOT PART OF THE CULTURE, THEN TO WHAT DEGREE DOES YOUR EMBRACE OF IT MEAN THAT YOU ARE SORT OF KIND OF ADOPTING SOMETHING?

BUT SHE DESCRIBES IT AS A FEELING OF KIND OF GREAT PEACE THAT JUST FELT LIKE HOME WHEN SHE BECAME A PART OF THIS COMMUNITY.

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT PART OF THE REASON I WAS DRAWN TO HER STORY SO MUCH IS THIS -- HATE TO USE THIS WORD AGAIN -- BUT THERE IS TENSION THERE TOO.

RIGHT?

IT IS NOT EASILY SOLVABLE.

MAYBE IT IS NOT A PROBLEM THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE SOLVED.

ESPECIALLY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, MAYBE IT IS SORT OF DYING DOWN NOW, BUT THERE WAS A TIME WHEN WE WERE ALL VERY SENSITIVE TO THE IDEA OF CULTURAL APPROPRIATION.

RIGHT?

SO, BUT THEN, WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO, OKAY, RELIGIOUS CONVERTS.

THERE IS ALWAYS A PATHWAY TO CONVERSION IN MOST STATES, AND THERE IS A PATHWAY TO CONVERSION IN ISLAM, BUT IN YOUR ALSO TALKING ABOUT TAKING ON CULTURAL JURISDICTION OF A PARTICULAR SUBSET OF INDIVIDUALS.

ACTUALLY, THOSE PEOPLE ARE, FOR THE MOST PART, PROBABLY QUITE HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

I THINK HANNAH IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF ONE THING I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT A LOT IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS EVEN, SINCE I PUT THE BOOK TO BED, REALLY, THAT RELIGION, SOMETIMES, WE WANT TO MAKE SENSE OF RELIGIOUS CONVERSION OR THINK ABOUT IT THROUGH A LENS THAT IS SOCIOLOGICAL OR ACADEMIC, BUT IN SOME WAYS, IT KIND OF DOESN'T REALLY FIT NEATLY INTO THOSE CATEGORIES.

IT CAN ALSO BE THOUGHT OF MORE AS, LIKE, THE ACT OF FALLING IN LOVE.

I THINK THAT SHE REALLY JUST FELL IN LOVE WITH ISLAM, AS SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH THIS PARTICULAR EXPRESSION OF ISLAM, BUT I THINK IT IS ALSO INTERESTING THAT, AS SHE HAS BEEN MUSLIM FOR LONGER, AND AS SHE ALSO RELOCATED, LIVES IN SAUDI ARABIA, AND AS -- >> WAIT, SAY THAT AGAIN.

MAKE SURE PEOPLE DIDN'T MISS THAT.

SHE LIVES IN SAUDI ARABIA NOW, AND UNTIL VERY RECENTLY, RELATIVELY, WOMEN WANT ALLOWED TO DRIVE.SHE MADE A BIG LIFESTYLE CHANGE.

>> YEAH.

>> THE MIDWEST, YOU KNOW.

>> YEAH.

SHE MOVED HERE AS A SINGLE YOUNG AMERICAN WOMAN, AND THAT IS REALLY, FOR LOTS OF DIFFERENT REASONS, THE DECISION THAT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL FIND VERY CONFUSING, AND AS SAUDI ARABIA HAS CHANGED A LOT -- IT HAS CHANGED A LOT IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS -- SHE HAS ALSO CHANGED A LOT.

SHE NOW WEARS MOSTLY SCARS, SHE FOR FIVE YEARS WORE A NEW COP, TOTALLY COVERED FROM THE BOTTOM HALF OF HER FACE, THEN SHE STARTED TO MOVE A LITTLE BIT IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.

SHE REALLY FRAMES THAT AS A DECISION THAT DOESN'T REFLECT ANYTHING ABOUT HER RELATIONSHIP TO ISLAM.

I THINK SHE FEELS THAT -- I THINK SHE UNDERSTANDS WHY PEOPLE WOULD ASSUME THAT, BUT SHE DOESN'T FEEL THAT -- SHE FEELS LIKE THAT THIS IS PEOPLE PUTTING TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON THE OUTSIDE, AND THAT HER HEART AND FAITH ARE IN THE EXACT SAME PLACE, BUT IT IS AN INTERESTING TRANSFORMATION, AND PART OF ME FEELS LIKE, YOU KNOW, I THINK, ESPECIALLY RIGHT AROUND THE TIME YOU CONVERT, IF YOU ARE SOMEBODY LIKE HANNAH, OR ME, AND YOU COME FROM A CULTURE THAT IS REALLY QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THE ONE YOU ARE JOINING, THERE IS THIS SENSE THAT YOU NEED TO BE REALLY, REALLY GOOD, AND YOU NEED TO, LIKE, JUST TRY TO LOOK LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE AND DO THINGS THE WAY EVERYBODY ELSE DOES, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK I TIME PASSES, MAYBE -- I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN HER MOUTH -- FOR ME, I THINK THERE IS A LITTLE BIT LESS OF THAT WHERE YOU FEEL MAYBE SOME GREATER SENSE OF OWNERSHIP.

>> THE OTHER REASON IT IS INTERESTING FOR SOME PEOPLE, I WOULD ARGUE, SOME PEOPLE THINK THE EMBRACE OF RELIGION, ESPECIALLY -- HOW CAN I SAY -- A TRADITIONALIST MANIFESTATION OF A RELIGION -- IS TO STOP ASKING QUESTIONS, AND SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT THAT IS WHAT THAT MEANS, TO GIVE UP JUDGMENT, TO GIVE UP THAT HARD OF YOURSELF, JUST TO FOLLOW, TO THAT QUESTION.

RIGHT?

>> SOMETIMES, I THINK IT IS.

THERE ARE TIMES IN MY RELIGIOUS LIFE WHERE I DO JUST SAY, OKAY, THIS IS WHAT I'M TOLD TO DO.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

THIS IS HOW IT IS GOING TO BE THERE ARE SOME RELIGIONS, I THINK, THAT ARE EVEN MORE EXPLICIT ABOUT THAT, WHERE THERE ISN'T REALLY ANY WIGGLE ROOM.

IN JUDAISM, BECAUSE IT IS NOT A SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY VOICES AND SO MUCH TEXT, YOU CAN FIND LOTS OF DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS, BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE FOR EVERYTHING, BUT I THINK WITH THE OTHER WOMEN'S STORIES, I 1 TO SHOW, THEY ARE ALL HUMAN.

EVEN WHEN YOU ARE BECOMING A PART OF A COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, ADOPTING A THEOLOGY THAT LOOKS SO STATIC, AND SET ON PAPER, THAT THAT SORT OF PROCESS OF FIGURING OUT HOW TO LIVE AND FIGURING OUT YOURSELF DOESN'T STOP JUST BECAUSE YOU DO THAT.

I THINK THEY WOULD ALL AGREE WITH ME ON THAT.

>> SO, THE WOMEN YOU PROFILED, INCLUDING YOU, ARE STILL TOTALLY YOUNG.

DID YOU FIND A THROUGH LINE, BECAUSE THESE WOMEN ARE ALSO DIFFERENT, AND THESE EXPERIENCES TOOK A LONG TIME?

THIS WASN'T LIKE THEY WOKE UP ONE MORNING, THIS IS IT, NONE OF THAT WAS THE CASE, AS YOU DESCRIBED IT.

SO, DID YOU SEE A COMMON THREAD HERE?

>> I THINK THERE IS ONE CHARACTERISTIC EVERYBODY SHARED.

I THINK THERE WERE COMMONALITIES THAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE SHARED.

YOU KNOW, OR, LIKE, YOU COULD FIND GROUPINGS.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE DESIRE TO FIND A WAY TO EVALUATE ONE'S LIFE, OUTSIDE OF WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL, LIKE, MODERN IDEOLOGIES.

DIFFERENT WAYS OF THINKING OF ONE'S SELF AS A HUMAN WITH WORTH THAT DIDN'T HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR STANDING, OR THINGS LIKE THAT, SORT OF ANOTHER ONE WAS LIKE AN INTERESTING HISTORY OR A PAST WE SORT OF HAVE THE DESIRE TO FEEL CONNECTED TO A CHAIN THROUGH HUMAN EXISTENCE.

IF I HAD TO PICK ONE THING THAT REALLY BOUND EVERYBODY TOGETHER, I THINK WHAT I SAID EARLIER PROBABLY GETS THAT THE BEST, THAT THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO, LIKE, WHO JUST FELL IN LOVE.

THEY FOUND SOMETHING THAT THEY LOVED, AND THEY WERE WILLING TO GO LEASES TO HAVE THAT THAT, LIKE, MIGHT LOOK STRANGE FROM THE OUTSIDE, BUT PEOPLE DO THIS KIND OF THING ALL THE TIME WHEN THEY FALL IN LOVE WITH A PERSON, YOU KNOW, OR, SO, I THINK THAT IS THE THING THAT REALLY CONNECTS THEM TO EACH OTHER.

>> I REALIZE THAT, IN THE COURSE OF REPORTING OR RESEARCHING THIS BOOK, YOU HAD TO GO OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONE AS A PERSON WHO OBSERVES AN ORTHODOX PRACTICE OF JUDAISM.

YOU WOULD NOT BE GOING TO CHRISTIAN CEREMONIES OR OTHER RELIGIOUS -- SPECIFICALLY RELIGIOUS CEREMONIES -- FOR OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUPS.

RIGHT?

THAT IS IS NOT A THING.

>> YEAH.

>> SO, YOU HAD TO DO THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, HOW DID YOU NAVIGATE THAT?

DID YOU PRAY OVER IT?

DID YOU SEEK GUIDANCE FROM YOUR KIND OF RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY ABOUT HOW TO THINK ABOUT THAT?

AND THEN, I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION.

>> SO, I DID SEEK SOME GUIDANCE ABOUT HOW TO DO THAT.

PART OF THE DIALOGUE IS MY JOB.

SORT OF GENERALLY -- WHEN I HAVE WRITTEN SMALLER ARTICLES AND ESSAYS -- I DON'T ONLY WRITE ABOUT JUDAISM.

I WRITE ABOUT OTHER THINGS.

WHEN I DO THAT, I DON'T KNOW.

I AM A NOSY PERSON.

YOU KNOW, LIKE, I AM INTERESTED .

IT IS AN INTERESTING FACET OF MY LIFE THAT I'M INTERESTED IN -- PART OF THIS COMMUNITY THAT, IN SOME WAYS, CAN BE INSULAR.

NOT MY IMMEDIATE COMMITTEE, BUT ORTHODOXY AS A WHOLE, CERTAINLY CAN BE INSULAR.

BUT, I AM ALSO -- I AM VERY CURIOUS ABOUT OTHERS, HOW THEY LIVE, AND ACTUALLY, I THINK ALL OF MY ONES ARE THE SAME.

>> MY FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU, YOUR EXPERIENCE OF THIS DEEP IMMERSION IN OTHERS' FAITH WIFE, DID THAT CHALLENGE YOU AT ALL?

>> I HAVE A LOT OF LOVE AND RESPECT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THESE ENORMOUS CHANGES IN THEIR LIVES.

AND I FELT REALLY UNDERSTOOD BY THEM IN MANY WAYS.

WE HAD A LOT OF HUGE POINTS OF CONVERGENCE IN OUR EXPERIENCES OF DOING THESE THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, LIKE, SORT OF LOOK AT RATIONAL -- AND A LOT OF THE WAYS OUR LIVES CAN BE SORT OF SIMILAR, EVEN THOUGH SOME OF THE UNDERPINNINGS OF THOSE LIVES ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

YOU KNOW, IF I AM TALKING TO SOMEBODY WHO IS ON HIS, AND SHE BELIEVES, OBVIOUSLY, JESUS IS OUR SAVIOR, BUT ALSO, THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO JOIN THESE HIGH-BAR CULTURAL SITUATIONS WHERE, ALL OF A SUDDEN, WE ARE EXPECTED TO UNDERSTAND THE CODED ACTION AND LANGUAGE THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO BEFORE, SO, I DO WANT TO SAY THAT I WAS CHANGED BECAUSE I HAD MORE RESPECT AND AFFECTION FOR THAT KIND OF AN EXPERIENCE.

I FEEL LIKE I ALWAYS HAVE, BUT I DEFINITELY FEEL THAT STRONGLY NOW, IF THAT MAKES SENSE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, KELSEY OSGOOD.

>> THANKS.