Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> OUR PEOPLE ARE DYING.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING TO STOP THIS WAR AND TO GUARANTEE SECURITY.

>> AS DELEGATES HEAD TO GENEVA FOR THE NEXT ROUND OF UKRAINE PEACE TALKS, CHRISTIANE DISCUSSES WHAT'S AT STAKE IN MUNICH WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND LEADERS FROM NATO, EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES.

> >> THEN, IN VENEZUELA CELEBRATIONS AS SOME POLITICAL PRISONERS ARE RELEASED.

WHILE MANY MORE REMAIN BEHIND BARS.

I ASK ONE OF THEM, LEADING OPPOSITION ACTIVIST JESUS ARMAS, IF HE BELIEVES VENEZUELA IS ON A PATH TO DEMOCRACY.

> >> AND -- >> IT'S A DRUG THAT CAN BE MISUSED AND IT'S A DRUG WITH POTENTIAL THERAPEUTIC CONSEQUENCES, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S ALL GOOD OR ALL BAD.

>> WITH MARIJUANA LEGALIZED IN STATE AFTER STATE, MICHELLE PATTERN SPEAKS TO NEUROBIOLOGIST MARGARET HANEY ABOUT HOW THE DRUG AFFECTS THE BRAIN.

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>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IT'S BEEN ALMOST FOUR YEARS SINCE RUSSIA'S BRUTAL FULL-SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE BEGAN.

AND NOW UKRAINIAN NEGOTIATORS ARE HEADED TO GENEVA TO MEET WITH RUSSIA AND THE UNITED STATES FOR THE NEXT ROUND OF TALKS, HOPING TO HAMMER OUT A CEASEFIRE AGREEMENT.

SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO SAYS PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS A SOLUTION THAT ENDS THE BLOODSHED ONCE AND FOR ALL.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS KYIV HAS TO MOVE BECAUSE RUSSIA WANTS TO MAKE A DEAL.

SPEAKING AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TOLD DELEGATES THAT UKRAINE WILL DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE THESE NEGOTIATIONS SUCCESSFUL.

>> THE AMERICANS OFTEN RETURN TO THE TOPIC OF CONCESSIONS.

AND TOO OFTEN THOSE CONCESSIONS ARE DISCUSSED IN THE CONTEXT ONLY OF UKRAINE, NOT RUSSIA.

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

AND UKRAINE KEEPS RETURNING TO ONE SIMPLE POINT.

PEACE CAN ONLY BE BUILT ON CLEAR, CLEAR SECURITY GUARANTEES WHERE THERE IS NO CLEAR SECURITY SYSTEM WAR ALWAYS RETURNS.

>> AND THERE'S STILL NO END TO THE WAR IN SIGHT.

AS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS ON BOTH SIDES ARE KILLED EACH MONTH AND UKRAINIANS HUDDLE IN THE COLD, THEIR ENERGY SYSTEM DECIMATED BY RUSSIAN BOMBARDMENT.

IN MUNICH CHRISTIANE SAT DOWN WITH ZELENSKYY ALONGSIDE NATO'S SECRETARY-GENERAL MARK RUTTE, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT PRESIDENT ROBERTA METSOLA, AND U. S. REPUBLICAN SENATOR ROGER WICKER.

HERE'S THEIR CONVERSATION.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU, WHAT DO YOU NEED RIGHT NOW?

I'M REALLY CONSCIOUS OF THE TIME AND OWNING TIME ISSUE THAT YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT.

BUT IF YOU WERE TO PUT OUT A WISH LIST OR A SHOPPING LIST RIGHT NOW, IS IT MOSTLY ANTI-AIRCRAFT AND ANTI--- MISSILES TO PROTECT YOUR SKIES?

WHAT DO YOU NEED RIGHT NOW?

>> SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THIS CONVERSATION.

LET'S LOOK AT PRIORITIES.

ALL OUR CHALLENGES ARE FIRST ENERGY CHALLENGE.

WE NEED MISSILES FOR --PATRIOT SYSTEMS.

WE SPOKE YESTERDAY WITH OUR NORWAY PARTNERS, AMERICA AND ALSO GERMANY.

WE NEED MISSILES.

THIS IS CRUCIAL.

THIS IS NUMBER ONE WHAT WE NEED, MISSILES.

AND AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE.

AND VERY THANKFUL FOR POSSIBILITY MARK FOR YOU AND THANKS YOU AND NOT ONLY WE'RE THANKFUL FOR --I THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE.

I WILL TELL YOU SUCCESSFUL WHEN MISSILES WILL COME TO UKRAINE.

YEAH.

I HOPE THAT IT WILL BE SUCCESSFUL.

IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT, AND GERMANY HELPED VERY MUCH AND THE MINISTER SAID -- I DON'T KNOW WHERE IS HE.

I THINK HE WORKS.

ON THIS PLAN.

ALSO TO BRING MORE MISSILES TO US.

SO THIS IS ABOUT ENERGY.

WE SPOKE YESTERDAY WITH OUR BERLINS GROUP HOW WE CALL IT BECAUSE WE HAD SUCCESSFUL MEETING YESTERDAY WITH ALL THE PARTNERS AND I THINK THE IDEA BEFORE --TO STRENGTHEN UKRAINE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE WITH ENERGY SUPPLIES, WILL BE A PLAN OF ENERGY SUPPORT, PLAN OF MISSILES.

THIS IS IMPORTANT.

THEN MARK IS SITTING HERE.

THEN I SEE ROBERTA.

SO WE NEED MEMBERSHIP IN EU.

[ APPLAUSE ] YOU SAID WHICH LIST.

>> AND THEN MEMBERSHIP IN NATO.

I UNDERSTAND.

>> AND WE NEED SECURITY GUARANTEES.

WHICH HAVE BEEN VOTED IN -- >> IN A SECOND.

SECRETARY-GENERAL, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE, AND AS HE SAID EUROPE EXPECT RIGHT NOW FOR THE DEFENSE OF THAT LAND AND YOUR LAND.

WHAT CAN THEY GET RIGHT NOW?

>> CAN I BEFORE I ANSWER THE QUESTION JUST SHARE WITH YOU TWO THINGS I SAW MYSELF LAST WEEK IN KYIV.

I VISITED WITH A SMALL TEAM OF COLLEAGUES FROM NATO.

FIRST OF ALL, I SAW --YOU SAW ONE OF THE PICTURES HERE OF THE IMPACT OF FIVE MISSILES TAKING OUT ONE OF THESE HUGE HEATING PLANTS.

AND WE DO NOT ALWAYS REALIZE IN THIS PART OF EUROPE THAT WHEN IT COMES TO KYIV AND THE BIG CITIES THEY ARE HEATED CENTRALLY.

SO WHAT THE RUSSIANS DID IS FIVE MISSILES TAKE OUT THIS HEATING PLANT RESPONSIBLE FOR HEATING THE HOMES OF A QUARTER OF A MILLION PEOPLE.

THE PLANT WILL BE DOWN AT LEAST FOR TWO MONTHS.

THAT MEANS THE PEOPLE --AND IT WAS MINUS 25 DEGREES LAST WEEK IN KYIV DURING NIGHT AND MINUS 15 DEGREES DURING DAY.

THAT THEY ARE LIVING IN THOSE CONDITIONS.

WHEN YOU SPEAK WITH THE PEOPLE, THEY ARE TELLING ME, HEY, KEEP ON SUPPORTING US, WE WILL NOT GIVE IN.

IT ONLY MAKES THEM ALMOST STRONGER, DESPITE THE TERRIBLE DIFFICULTY THEY ARE FACING.

WE HAVE TO REALIZE THE RUSSIANS ARE NOT WINNING THIS.

AS YOU SAID, THEY LOST 65,000 PEOPLE IN DECEMBER AND IN JANUARY.

THEY ARE NOT WINNING THIS.

THEY MAKE VERY SMALL GAINS IN DONETSK AND OTHER PLACES, SO SMALL THAT IT'S ALMOST NOT RELEVANT.

BUT THEY LOSE ALL THESE PEOPLE.

IF THAT IS A DICTATOR IN MOSCOW WILLING TO DO THAT, WE ARE REALLY WORKING WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS WILLING TO DO THAT, TO GET SO MANY OF HIS OWN PEOPLE KILLED IN THAT WAR, WE HAVE TO TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY.

BECAUSE THIS IS CRAZY BEHAVIOR AT EVERY LEVEL.

SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO HERE IN THIS ROOM IN ALL OUR POSITIONS, THE POLITICIANS AND EVERYBODY WHO CAN INFLUENCE THIS, IS TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE STAUNCH, WHO ARE DEFENDING THEMSELVES, WHO WILL NEVER GIVE UP, THAT THEY HAVE THE OFFENSIVE STUFF THEY NEED.

WE NEED TO DO THIS.

KEEP THEM STRONG IN THE FIGHT.

THEY WILL DO IT.

BUT THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT.

>> AND THE SECOND PART OF THAT -- [ APPLAUSE ] THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT COIN IS PUTTING ENOUGH PAIN ON PUTIN, AS YOU HAVE SAID AND AS OTHERS HAVE SAID, TO ACTUALLY GET SERIOUS ABOUT A SERIOUS NEGOTIATION.

>> AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT RUBIO SAID TODAY.

IT IS TESTING HIM, IS HE SERIOUS, PUTIN, ABOUT ALL OF THIS.

HE'S AGAIN SENDING THIS HISTORIAN NEXT WEEK TO THE TALKS IN GENEVA.

SO HE WILL AGAIN LECTURE UKRAINIANS ABOUT -- >> IN HIS SPEECH HE MENTIONED UKRAINE ONLY IN PASSING AND THE WORDS WERE ELUSIVE PEACE.

WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.

ROBERTA METSOLA, FOR EUROPE YOU SAW A CALL TOROOMS ATODAY F TODAY FROM COMMISSION PRESIDENT URSULA VON DER LEYEN, FROM PRIME MINISTER STARMER, ABOUT REBUILDING EUROPE'S MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

WHAT CAN YOU DO NOW?

HOW COME YOU HAVEN'T MANAGED TO GET ALL THOSE --THE MONEY OF RUSSIA THAT YOU COULD ACTUALLY GIVE TO UKRAINE AND MOST OF THE EUROPEANS AGREE WITH IT?

WHY CAN'T YOU JUST GET IT DONE AND PUT PRESSURE ON PUTIN, AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAYS, AND AS IT'S PATENTLY CLEAR THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH PRESSURE ON PUTIN YET?

HE DOESN'T FEEL ENOUGH PAIN.

>> ON THAT WE AGREE.

NEXT WEEK I WILL SIGN A 90 BILLION EURO LOAN TO UKRAINE.

AGREED IN UNDER FOUR WEEKS.

IN AN UNPRECEDENTED SPEED.

YOU MIGHT SAY IT TOOK US TOO LONG, WE USED TO DO THINGS MUCH SLOWER BEFORE.

BUT WHEN PUSH CAME TO SHOVE WE REALLY PUT OUR MONEY WHERE OUR MOUTH IS.

AND THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO USE AS THE STRONGEST OF MESSAGE THAT WHEN I FIRST CAME TO UKRAINE A COUPLE OF WEEKS INTO THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, VOLODYMYR, I TOLD YOU THAT WE WOULD STAND WITH YOU.

AND I PRESIDE OVER A PARLIAMENT WHERE THE MAJORITIES ARE HUGE.

AND I WANT TO SAY THIS BECAUSE EVERY SECOND QUESTION WHEREVER WE GO WE'RE ASKED BUT THERE'S FATIGUE AND PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AWAY AND YOU'RE LOSING YOUR PRIORITIES ON WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.

MY ANSWER IS I WAS IN THE OPENING OF THE WINTER OLYMPICS ONE WEEK AGO AND THE LOUDEST CHEER WAS FOR THE UKRAINIAN DELEGATION.

AND THAT IS WHAT SHOWS, SPONTANEOUSLY, THAT THE PEOPLE OF EUROPE ARE WITH YOU.

WHAT HAVE WE DONE SINCE THE 24th OF FEBRUARY 2022?

SO WE HAVE THE IMMENSE INCREASE IN GDP EXPENDITURE ON DEFENSE.

THAT'S ALSO THANKS TO YOUR LEADERSHIP, MARK.

SECONDLY, WE HAVE ADOPTED AN UNPRECEDENTED NUMBER OF SANCTIONS IN TERMS OF PACKAGES.

WE'RE WAITING FOR THE PACKAGE NOW.

WE ARE WORKING AND AGREED WITH VOLODYMYR WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT THE NEXT STEP ON WHAT WE SHOULD DO ON THE SHADOW FLEET.

WE HAVE TWO NEW MEMBERS IN NATO, AND THIS IS PARTICULARLY PERSONAL FOR ME BECAUSE ONE OF MY SONS IS SERVING IN THE MILITARY OF ONE OF THEM.

AND THAT IS WHAT WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN DONE IF IT WERE NOT FOR UKRAINIANS FIGHTING FOR THE FREEDOM THAT WE TOOK FOR GRANTED, THAT WE LOOKED AWAY, THAT WE TOOK TOO LONG TO RESPOND TO.

>> OKAY.

SENATOR WICKER, SENIOR SENATOR, REPUBLICAN SENATOR.

WHAT MORE CAN THE UNITED STATES DO?

WE'VE HAD A YEAR OF SO-CALLED NEGOTIATIONS IN WHICH EVERY TIME WE LOOK AROUND IT APPEARS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP PUTS MORE PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY THAN ON PRESIDENT PUTIN.

THERE IS A PACKAGE OF SANCTIONS THAT'S READY TO GO, I UNDERSTAND, BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS -- >> THAT'S RIGHT.

AND THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS.

AND WHAT WE'VE JUST HEARD FROM EUROPE IS VERY GOOD NEWS.

WHAT WE NEED SPECIFICALLY IS WE NEED FOR THE ADMINISTRATION TO UNLEASH THE TOMAHAWK MISSILES.

AND THAT'S A MESSAGE THAT WILL COME FROM THE CONGRESS.

[ APPLAUSE ] IT'S A DECISION OF THE ADMINISTRATION.

BUT THE VERY GOOD NEWS, IN ADDITION TO THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT MESSAGES OF REASSURANCE TODAY AND THE SUPPORT THAT THIS ROOM HAS SHOWN, WE --WE WILL BE ABLE TO VOTE IN TWO WEEKS' TIME ON SANCTIONS.

AND WHAT UKRAINE REALLY NEEDS IS FOR EUROPE -- FOR RUSSIA TO RUN OUT OF OIL.

AND IF WE PASS MEANINGFUL, SERIOUS SANCTIONS ON THE OIL PRODUCERS, ON, SAY, THE EIGHT REFINERIES AROUND THE WORLD THAT RUSSIA DEPENDS ON, THAT CAN BRING A MEANINGFUL CHANGE IN THE NEGOTIATIONS.

SOME OTHER GOOD NEWS.

PUBLIC OPINION IN FAVOR OF UKRAINE IN THE UNITED STATES IS GROWING.

PUBLIC OPINION AMONG REPUBLICANS BEING POLLED IS GROWING IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND WE'RE IN A POSITION WITH THE SANCTIONS BILL PERHAPS NEXT WEEK FOR THIS TO BE A TURNING POINT.

>> WELL, THAT IS VERY INTERESTING NEWS FOR SURE.

[ APPLAUSE ] PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SECURITY GUARANTEES, ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU NEED IN ORDER TO ACTUALLY SIGN ON TOE A PEACE PROCESS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MAKE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LATEST IN WHICH I BELIEVE YESTERDAY HE SAID ZELENSKYY IS GOING TO HAVE TO GET MOVING, RUSSIA WANTS TO MAKE A DEAL AND ZELENSKYY IS GOING TO HAVE TO GET MOVING, OTHERWISE HE'S GOING TO MISS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY, HE HAS TO MOVE.

ARE YOU --OBVIOUSLY --I MEAN, THIS IS PRESSURE.

ARE YOU FEELING THE PRESSURE?

>> A LITTLE BIT.

I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND SIGNALS OF THE PRESIDENT.

MAYBE IT'S PREPARING ATMOSPHERE BEFORE SWITZERLAND MEETING, TRILATERAL MEETING, ET CETERA.

NOT LOSING OUR DIGNITY WE CAN MOVE.

WE MADE A LOT OF COMPROMISES.

SPEAKING WITH RUSSIANS, BEGINNING EVEN WITH THIS.

WE HAVE TRILATERAL MEETINGS.

WITH ALL RESPECT TO THE UNITED STATES, THEY PROPOSED US TO HAVE SUCH MEETINGS.

I THINK IT WAS A COMPROMISE FROM THE SIDE OF UKRAINIAN PEOPLE.

THE SECOND POINT, WE ARE READY TO SPEAK AND CONTINUE.

WE ARE READY TO SPEAK ABOUT CONSTANT LINE.

WE ARE READY TO SPEAK ABOUT THE STOP ON THE CONTACT LINE AND THEN BEGIN TO TALK.

THIS IS ALSO COMPROMISE BECAUSE WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT OUR TERRITORIES, WHICH ARE TEMPORARILY OCCUPIED, OUR PEOPLE WHICH HAVE.

KILLED.

SO A LOT OF DIFFERENT COMPROMISES.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT RUSSIANS ARE READY TO DO.

WE DON'T HEAR COMPROMISES FROM RUSSIAN SIDE.

WE WANT TO HEAR FROM THEM SOMETHING.

AND I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT.

>> BEFORE YOU CARRY ON CAN I JUST ASK YOU ABOUT TWO PRESS -- >> OUR PEOPLE UNDER PRESSURE, BY THE WAY.

OUR PEOPLE, UKRAINIANS UNDER PRESSURE.

>> OF COURSE.

THEY'RE BEING KILLED.

THE FT REPORTS THAT YOU ARE PREPARED TO ANNOUNCE A PLAN FOR PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS AND A REFERENDUM ON A PEACE DEAL, THAT YOU'RE PREPARED TO ANNOUNCE THAT POTENTIALLY EVEN BY THE END OF THIS MONTH.

TRUE OR FALSE?

>> SOMETHING NEW FOR ME.

>> SO YOU DON'T KNOW?

>> IT WAS NEW FOR ME.

I ANSWERED ALREADY ON THIS QUESTION.

BUT I CAN REPEAT.

FIRST OF ALL, OF COURSE NOBODY SUPPORT ELECTIONS DURING THE WAR.

IT'S SOMETHING STRANGE.

I SAID IT ABOUT SO MANY TIMES.

THEN I SAID IF AMERICAN SIDE WILL PUSH THIS SIGNAL I'M READY TO SHOW THAT WE ARE READY FOR THIS.

OKAY, GIVE US --I'M VERY HONEST.

GIVE US TWO MONTHS OF CEASEFIRE, WE WILL GO TO ELECTIONS.

THAT'S IT.

[ APPLAUSE ] GIVE US CEASEFIRE.

GIVE US SECURITY, INFRASTRUCTURE.

MAYBE NOT TWO MONTHS.

BUT WE NEED A LOT OF DAYS TO PREPARE.

THEN GIVE US POSSIBILITY, OUR SOLDIERS TO VOTE.

HOW THEY CAN DEFEND OUR LIVES, OUR COUNTRY AND AT THE SAME MOMENT TO VOTE.

THIS IS SOMETHING DIFFICULT.

EVEN NOT --I MEAN, STRANGE.

IT'S SOMETHING VERY DIFFICULT.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHO HAS SUCH EXPERIENCE.

WE DON'T HAVE IT.

AND WE CAN'T COMPARE.

SOMETIMES I HEARD -- SORRY.

SOMETIMES I HEARD YES, WE HAD ELECTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES DURING LINCOLN'S TIME AND ET CETERA.

HOW WE CAN COMPARE IT.

WE HAVE MISSILES.

OUR PEOPLE UNDER MISSILES.

IT'S NOT JUST LAND WAR.

A LOT OF MISSILES.

WE'RE UNDER BALLISTIC ATTACKS.

SO GIVE US CEASEFIRE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP CAN DO IT.

PUSH PUTIN.

MAKE CEASE FOOR.

THEN OUR PARLIAMENT WILL CHANGE THE LAW AND WE WILL GO TO ELECTIONS.

IF THEY NEED THEM, IF AMERICANS NEED ELECTIONS IN UKRAINE, AND IF RUSSIANS NEED ELECTIONS IN UKRAINE, WE ARE OPEN FOR THIS.

>> SECRETARY-GENERAL -- >> BUT WE CAN ALSO GIVE CEASEFIRE FOR RUSSIANS IF THEY WILL DO ELECTIONS IN RUSSIA.

[ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] >> SECRETARY-GENERAL, EVEN THE CHINESE -- >> THIS IS WHY HE IS -- >> THAT'S HIS PREVIOUS AND HIS CURRENT -- >> NEVER GIVE IN.

>> STRENGTH, RIGHT?

COMMUNICATION.

CAN I ASK YOU, EVEN THE CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTER AS HE WAS TALKING AND ADDRESSING TODAY DID THE WHOLE RUSSIAN TROPE ABOUT HAVING TO TALK ABOUT THE HISTORICAL REASONS AND THE PRECONDITIONS AND THIS AND THAT FOR A CEASEFIRE.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE VITAL SECURITY GUARANTEES THAT NEED TO BE IN PLACE AND SO FAR RUSSIA HAS SAID NO TO EVEN AN INTERNATIONAL MONITORING FORCE OF EUROPE PZ.

SO WHAT DO YOU SEE IS A REALISTIC SECURITY GUARANTEE?

>> WE NEED SECURITY GUARANTEES.

AT THREE LEVELS.

LEVEL ONE IS THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES.

THEY HAVE TO BE SO STRONG AND SO WELL TRAINED.

AND OF COURSE THEY ARE ALREADY BATTLE HARDENED.

THAT THEY CAN FIRST OF ALL OF COURSE DEFEND THEMSELVES.

THEN WE NEED --AND THIS IS THE LEADERSHIP OF MACRON AND STARMER WITH EUROPE, THE COALITION OF THE WILLING.

MANY OTHER COUNTRIES PARTICIPATING IN EUROPE, CANADA, AND ALSO BY THE WAY MORE AND MORE THE U. S. WILL COME TO THAT, COALITION OF THE WILLING, NATIONS IN NATO BUT ALSO OUTSIDE NATO.

AND THE THIRD ELEMENT IS THE AMERICANS.

IT WAS A CRUCIAL MOMENT WHEN THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IN AUGUST I WANT TO BE PART OF THAT, I WANT TO BE PARTICIPATING.

THEN WE ARTICULATED, THE UKRAINIANS AND AMERICANS AND THE COALITION OF THE WILLING, WHAT THAT WILL BE.

THIS IS EXACTLY AS THE PRESIDENT SAID, AS VOLODYMYR SAID, IN JANUARY WE HAD A MEETING IN PARIS VERY SUCCESSFUL WITH THE AMERICANS.

I WOULD SAY 95, 96, 97% OF THE SECURITY GUARANTEES NOW DONE.

WE CAN MAKE SURE COLLECTIVELY WITH UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES THE FIRST LINE OF DIVISIONS THAT THEY WILL NOT ATTACK AGAIN.

OBVIOUSLY TO DO THAT YOU NEED PUTIN TO PLAY BALL.

WHAT I AM SAYING, WHAT THE AMERICANS ARE SEEING CONSISTENTLY SINCE FEBRUARY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LEADERSHIP MARCO RUBIO, STEVE WITKOFF, JARED KUSHNER, AND THEY ARE TESTING THE RUSSIANS TO SEE WHETHER THEY ARE SERIOUS -- >> BUT THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A YEAR.

HOW MUCH TESTING?

>> YOU CAN HAVE AS MUCH CRITICISM AS YOU WANT ON THE PRESENT AMERICAN GOVERNMENT BUT I AM GOING TO DEFEND THEM.

>> IT'S A QUESTION.

>> IN THE QUESTION I HEAR -- >> HOW LONG?

HOW LONG DO YOU -- THIS HAS BEEN THE DEADLIEST YEAR FOR UKRAINE -- >> BUT HERE'S THE THING.

IF WE AGREE THAT ONLY THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT WAS ABLE TO BREAK THE DEATH LOCK WITH PUTIN I THINK IT IS ONLY HIM BECAUSE HE IS THE LEADER OF THE MIGHTIEST NATION ON EARTH, A QUARTER OF THE WORLD'S ECONOMY, THE MIGHTIEST MILITARY.

NO ONE EXPECTED THIS TO END SOON.

IT IS AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT SITUATION WE ARE DEALING WITH.

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE HERE IS NOT ZELENSKYY OR THE UKRAINIAN TEAM.

THEY ARE WILLING TO PLAY BALL.

THEY WANT THIS TO END AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

NOBODY WANTS TO PROLONG THIS.

SO IT IS THE RUSSIANS WHO HAVE TO PLAY BALL.

>> SENATOR WICKER, AS FAR AS I GATHER, AND YOU CAN CONFIRM, THAT SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO DID NOT CHOOSE TO GO TO THE SPECIAL BERLIN FORMAT MEETING OF ALL THE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, MARK RUTTE, AND THE OTHER LEADERS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT SIGNALS?

WHAT DO YOU THINK AS SECRETARY RUTTE SAYS THE UNITED STATES IS ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED TO A FAIR AND JUST PEACE AND IS WILLING TO DO THE WORK FOR IT?

WHEN I SAY THE UNITED STATES, I SAY THIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> I TAKE THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S STATEMENT AT FACE VALUE.

I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS VERY MUCH.

BUT LET ME SAY THIS.

VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS NOT YET NEGOTIATED IN GOOD FAITH.

NEVER ONCE.

VLADIMIR PUTIN STARTED THIS WAR.

HE'S A WAR CRIMINAL.

AND AS YOU'VE POINTED OUT, HE STARTED COMMITTING MORE WAR CRIMES THIS YEAR BY ATTACKING CIVILIANS.

HE WILL BEGIN TO NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH ONLY WHEN HE IS HURTING ENOUGH.

AND THAT'S WHAT THESE OIL SANCTIONS MAY DO.

>> LAST WORD TO YOU, MR.

PRESIDENT.

HOW DO YOU THINK THIS YEAR IS GOING TO GO?

LET'S TAKE THE NEXT SIX MONTHS.

>> LET'S THINK ABOUT TOMORROW.

>> TOMORROW.

>> REALLY, AND THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW.

HOW IT WILL BE.

WE WILL SUPPORT PEACE DIALOGUE.

IF UNITED STATES WILL STAY IN NEGOTIATION PANELS AND DIALOGUES.

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US.

I HOPE THAT WE WILL INVOLVE MORE AND WE WILL WORK ON IT MORE EUROPEAN COLLEAGUES.

THEN I REALLY HOPE THAT WE WILL HAVE SUPPORT FROM THE UNITED STATES, FROM ADMINISTRATION AND CONGRESS ON SECURITY GUARANTEES.

WE NEED THEIR VOTINGS.

I HOPE THAT WE WILL HAVE SECURITY GUARANTEES VERY, VERY CLEAR FOR -- SORRY, BUT FIRST OF ALL FOR OUR PEOPLE THAT OUR PEOPLE WILL KNOW WHAT WILL BE IF RUSSIA WILL COME AGAIN.

THEN WE REALLY WANT TO WORK ON EU MEMBERSHIP.

AND I KNOW THAT SOME EUROPEAN LEADERS ARE NOT HAPPY WITH MY RHETORIC AND MESSAGES, AND SORRY, BUT I WILL CONTINUE BECAUSE WE NEED --WE ARE VERY THANKFUL, IT'S TRUE, WE ARE VERY THANKFUL BUT WE CANNOT SAVE ONLY BY SAY THANK YOU, CAN'T SAVE OUR LIVES.

THAT'S WHY I'M VERY HONEST.

FOR US IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A DATE, DAY FOR OUR MEMBERSHIP.

OTHERWISE, AFTER THIS WAR WILL END, I'M SURE THAT IT WILL END, PUTIN WILL DO EVERYTHING, DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HE WILL NEGOTIATE, HE WILL DO EVERYTHING BY HIS HANDS OR BY HANDS OF SOME NOT BIG COUNTRIES BUT VERY AMBITION LEADERS, HE WILL DO EVERYTHING BY USING THEM TO BLOCK OUR EU MEMBERSHIP.

THAT'S WHY I WANT VERY MUCH TO HAVE SIGNING BY AMERICANS, RUSSIANS, EUROPEANS AND UKRAINIANS IN THIS 20 POINTS PLAN WHERE THE DATE IS WRITTEN.

WHAT CAN I SAY?

THE UNITY IS VERY IMPORTANT.

AND UNITED STATES IS IMPORTANT.

THEY HAVE ONLY TO MAKE UKRAINE STRONGER THAN RUSSIA.

>> OKAY.

>> THANK YOU.

[ APPLAUSE ] >> ON THAT NOTE MR.

PRESIDENT, SECRETARY- GENERAL, PRESIDENT OF THE PARLIAMENT, SENATOR WICKER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> WELL, SINCE THE U. S. GRABBED NICOLAS MADURO THERE HAVE BEEN MIXED MESSAGES OUT OF VENEZUELA ON RESTORING DEMOCRACY.

ON ONE HAND ACTING PRESIDENT DELSY RODRIGUEZ DEFENDS MADURO'S LEGITIMACY.

HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID IN AN INTERVIEW WITH NBC NEWS.

>> Translator: SO YES, I CAN TELL YOU THAT PRESIDENT NICOLAS MADURO IS THE LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT.

THEY ARE BOTH, PRESIDENT MADURO AND CELIA FLORES, THE FIRST LADY, BOTH INNOCENT.

>> ON THE OTHER SHE TELLS VENEZUELA'S COOPERATION WITH THE U. S. SPEAKING HERE ON A VISIT TO OIL FACILITIES WITH THE AMERICAN ENERGY SECRETARY.

>> Translator: WE'RE DOING EXTRAORDINARY WORK AS PARTNERS TO IMPROVE PRODUCTION, FACILITIES, INFRASTRUCTURE AND MAINTENANCE.

THIS IS THE PATH OF COOPERATION AND THE AGENDA FOR A LONG-TERM PRODUCTIVE PARTNERSHIP.

NO BSTACLE SHOULD STAND IN THE WAY OF THIS PRODUCTIVE PATH THAT WE ARE ON.

>> RODRIGUEZ IS ALSO SENDING MIXED MESSAGES ON HUMAN RIGHTS.

SHE'S OVERSEEN THE RELEASE OF DOZENS OF POLITICAL PRISONERS WHILE MANY MORE REMAIN BEHIND BARS.

AMONG THOSE RELEASED IS JESUS ARMAS, WHO LED WHAT MOST OBSERVERS CALLED A WINNING PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN FOR EDMUNDO GONZALEZ.

FOLLOWING THAT ARMAS WAS HELD IN JAIL FOR OVER A YEAR.

I SPOKE TO HIM ABOUT WHAT HE ENDURED IN PRESIDENT AND HIS HOPES FOR DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA.

>> JESUS ARMAS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US.

LET'S GO BACK TO 14 MONTHS AGO WHEN YOU WERE ABDUCTED AT GUNPOINT, SUFFOCATED WITH A PLASTIC BAG OVER YOUR HEAD, AND NOT KNOWING IF YOU WOULD LIVE TO SEE ANOTHER DAY, A WEEK, A MONTH, AND REALLY ENDURING SO MUCH TORTURE.

CAN YOU JUST GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT THAT SAYS ABOUT THE VENEZUELAN STATE UNDER NICOLAS MADURO AND HIS NUMBER TWO, DELCY RODRIGUEZ, AT THE TIME?

>> SO WITHOUT ANY DOUBT IN VENEZUELA WE LIVE UNDER AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.

AND NOT ONLY AUTHORITARIAN IN A CLASSICAL WAY, IT'S ALSO A CRIMINAL REGIME THAT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT'S CONNECTED WITH ALL THE CARTELS AND DIFFERENT CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

SO THIS IS --THIS IS A COMMON PRACTICE BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT POLICES OR SECURITY MOVEMENT OF THE GOVERNMENT OF NICHOLAS MADURO'S REGIME.

SO WE ARE REALLY HAPPY THAT NICOLAS MADURO IS RIGHT NOW FACING THE JUSTICE IN THE U. S. , BUT WE KNOW THAT IT'S NOT ENOUGH, THAT WE NEED ALSO TO HAVE A TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA BECAUSE THE REGIME, DELCY RODRIGUEZ IS STILL IN POWER.

>> YOU WERE IN A WINDOWLESS CELL.

IF WE GO BACK TO THAT DATE OF JANUARY 3rd.

WHEN THE EXPLOSIONS BEGAN.

I KNOW YOU WERE UNAWARE OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING, YOU ONLY LEARNED TWO DAYS LATER THAT MADURO WAS ACTUALLY CAPTURED BY THE UNITED STATES.

IN THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU WERE ISOLATED DID YOU COMPREHEND THAT THIS COULD IN FACT BE THE END OF HIS REGIME OR NICOLAS MADURO'S REIGN OVER THE COUNTRY, AND WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT HOW THAT WOULD IMPACT YOU?

>> SO IT WAS A REALLY WEIRD MOMENT BECAUSE AS YOU DESCRIBED WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY WINDOW IN THE CELL.

SO IN THAT MOMENT WE LISTENED TO A BIG EXPLOSION THAT WAS REALLY, REALLY LOUD AND WE SAW THE MEMBERS OF THE MADURO SECRET POLICE OR THE GUARDS RUNNING AROUND WITHOUT NO - -WITHOUT ANY NOTION ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

AND WE SAW IN THAT MOMENT THAT MAYBE IT COULD BE RELATED WITH THE UNITED STATES.

AND THEN WHEN WE REALLY REALIZED THAT MADURO HAS GONE, HE WAS IN BROOKLYN, WE STARTED TO THINK THAT MAYBE THERE WAS A REAL OPPORTUNITY FOR A TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

>> YEAH.

AND RIGHTS GROUPS NOW IN THE COUNTRY AS WE ARE SEEING SOME EASE OVER THE AUTHORITARIAN RULE OF THAT COUNTRY, WE ARE SEEING A BIT MORE FREEDOM, MORE POLITICAL PRISONERS RELEASED, THOUGH NOT ALL, AND I'LL GET TO THAT IN JUST A SECOND, THERE IS CONCERN AMONG RIGHTS GROUPS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS PRIORITIZING SOME SORT OF STABILIZATION RIGHT NOW AS OPPOSED TO DEMOCRACY AND ELECTIONS.

>> FOR US THE PRIORITY IS TO HAVE A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION, A GENERAL ELECTION WHERE PEOPLE CAN CHOOSE THEIR NATIONAL ASSEMBLY REPRESENTATIVE, THEIR PRESIDENT, THEIR MAYORS, THE GOVERNORS, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WE LIVE UNDER A REGIME THAT OF COURSE IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY LEGITIMACY.

SO WE WANT TO ORGANIZE THE PEOPLE IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON THIS REGIME AND TO ACHIEVE THIS ELECTION.

BECAUSE THE REGIME IS GOING TO TRY TO STAY IN POWER, IS GOING TO TRY TO STOLE ANOTHER ELECTION IF WE HAVE AN ELECTION.

THEY WILL DO WHATEVER THEY CAN DO TO STAY IN POWER AND TO KEEP THE REPRESSION AND THE AUTHORITARIANISM IN VENEZUELA.

SO WE NOW NEED A UNITED STATES THAT CAN COMMIT NOT ONLY WITH THE ECONOMICAL TRANSITION IN VENEZUELA, WHICH IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

YOU KNOW THAT VENEZUELA WAS A FEW YEARS AGO IN A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

BUT ALSO THAT CAN COMMIT, REALLY COMMIT TO HAVE AN ELECTION THIS YEAR.

SO OF COURSE, FOR US IT'S OUR MAIN CONCERN.

>> SECRETARY RUBIO SAID THAT IS THE U. S.

'S GOAL TOO, TO ONE DAY HAVE ELECTIONS.

IT MAY NOT BE, THOUGH, AZ SOON AS THIS YEAR.

THE UNITED STATES AHAS ALREADY STARTED TO ROLL BACK SANCTIONS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS REPEATED THAT DELCY RODRIGUEZ IS SOMEONE HE CAN WORK WITH, THAT HIS ADMINISTRATION CAN WORK WITH.

THE ENERGY SECRETARY WAS JUST IN VENEZUELA LAST WEEK MEETING WITH DELCY RODRIGUEZ.

AND WE KNOW THAT PRIORITIZING THE OIL AND CONTROL OVER THE OIL HAS BEEN A TOP FOCUS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

WE HAVEN'T HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP SPEAK MUCH ABOUT UPCOMING ELECTIONS.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT EVEN RECENT POLLING IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS MARIA CORINA MACHADO, YOUR CANDIDATE WOULD WIN 67% OF THE VOTE COMPARED TO 25% THAT WOULD GO TO DELCY RODRIGUEZ.

IF THAT SUPPORT IS SO CLEAR ARE YOU CONCERNED AS TO WHY THE UNITED STATES ISN'T THEN PUSHING FOR AN ELECTION SOONER?

>> I THINK THAT STATEMENTS LIKE THE STATEMENT OF THE SECRETARY OF ENERGY ABOUT ELECTIONS ARE REALLY IMPORTANT.

WE WILL HAVE ENOUGH PRESSURE IN VENEZUELA AND ALSO ENOUGH ORGANIZATION OF THE CIVIL SOCIETY AND THE OPPOSITION IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS THAT WE WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO ACHIEVE A GENERAL ELECTION.

THAT'S OUR PLAN.

THAT'S OUR GOAL, TO HAVE A GENERAL FREE AND FAIR ELECTION.

>> WELL, WE KNOW THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THAT IT WANTS RECONCILIATION IN THE COUNTRY THROUGH AN AMNESTY BILL.

THERE ARE 644 POLITICAL PRISONERS THAT REMAIN BEHIND BARS RIGHT NOW.

FAMILIES HOLDING HUNGER STRIKES OUTSIDE OF THESE PRISONS UNTIL THEIR LOVED ONES ARE RELEASED.

I KNOW YOU SAY THAT THIS AMNESTY LAW AS IS IS NOT FAR ENOUGH, DOES NOT GO FAR ENOUGH IN RELEASING --IN GIVING AMNESTY TO AWFUL THOSE POLITICAL BRIRNZS.

IFFING JUST GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS LIKE BEHIND BARS IN ONE OF THE MOST NOTORIOUS PRISONS IN THAT REGION OF THE COUNTRY, WHICH BY THE WAY WE SHOULD NOTE THERE'S NOW DISCUSSIONS ABOUT TURNING THAT PRISON FACILITY INTO A COMMUNITY CENTER.

I'D LOVE TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT TOO.

>> SO I HAVE FOUR STAGES IN MY PRISON EXPERIENCE.

THE FIRST STAGE WAS ABOUT --ABOUT TORTURE WAS TO BE DISAPPEARED BY THE MADURO SECURITY POLICE WAS TO BE IN A CLANDESTINE SAFEHOUSE BEING TORTURED AND ALSO BEING INTERROGATED FOR HOURS.

THEY WANTED TO KNOW WHERE WAS THE MARIA CORINA MACHADO LOCATION.

AFTER THAT THEY MOVED ME TO ZONEA SIETE THE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE ARE NOW ON HUNGER STRIKE.

THAT WAS THE HELL ON EARTH.

THAT WAS A PLACE WHERE I HAVE TO LIVE IN A REALLY SMALL CELL WITH 37 OTHER PEOPLE THAT WERE IN A REALLY, REALLY BAD SHAPE.

ACTUALLY, A LOT OF THEM WERE SICK AND THEY DIDN'T RECEIVE ANY MEDICAL ATTENTION AND ALSO WE HAVE TO LIVE WITH RATS.

THERE ABOUT RATS EVERYWHERE.

THERE WAS NO BATHROOM INSIDE OF THE CELL.

SO THE PEOPLE HAVE TO GO TO A BATHROOM IN THESE PLASTIC BAGS.

AND THERE WAS A LOT OF CRUELTY BY THE GUARDS.

SO IT WAS A REALLY, REALLY HARD TIME.

THEN I WAS MOVED TO EL ELICOYE.

AND IN THE ELICOYE I LIVED UND EVERYPSYCHOLOGICAL PRESSURE, UNDER PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE.

WE WERE THREATENED A LOT.

WE WERE ALL THE TIME UNDER INTERROGATION PROCESS THAT LASTED FOR HOURS.

FOR EXAMPLE, THEY MAY INTERROGATE ME AT 10:00 A. M. , THEN AT 2:00 P. M. AND THEN THEY WOKE ME UP AT 2:00 OR 3:00 A. M. AND ASKED ME AGAIN AND AGAIN THE SAME QUESTIONS.

AND I WAS ISOLATED.

I WAS ISOLATED FOR MEN MONTH WITHOUT ANY INFORMATION ABOUT MY FAMILY, WITHOUT ANY INFORMATION ABOUT MY GIRLFRIEND.

I DIDN'T KNOW IF MY DAD WAS DEAD OR HE WAS --OR HE WAS ALIVE.

AND ALSO MY FAMILY WAS REALLY SCARED BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW IF I WAS REALLY ALIVE.

SO IT WAS REALLY EXHAUSTING.

REALLY HARD FOR ME TO GO THROUGH THIS EXPERIENCE.

AND FINALLY, AFTER JANUARY 3 rd, THE THINGS CHANGED.

THEY STARTED TO GIVE ME VISITS.

AFTER 12, 13 MONTHS I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK WITH MY MOM, TO TALK WITH MY GIRLFRIEND.

AND THEY STARTED TO TREAT US BETTER, TO GIVE US MORE TIME UNDER THE SURNGS N, TO GIVE US MORE TIME TO EXERCISE.

THIS WAS LIKE HELL.

BUT BELIEVE ME, WE ARE STRONGER NOW AND WE KNOW THAT EVERYTHING WE DID IT'S GOING TO HAVE THIS BIG PRICE AT THE END WHICH IS DEMOCRACY.

>> HELL ON EARTH IS ONE WAY TO DESCRIBE IT, EL ELICOYE DISCUSSED NOW TO TURN TYPE A COMMUNITY CENTER.

FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU, JESUS.

YOU'RE UNDER COURT SUPERVISION.

YOU'RE REQUIRED TO REPORT TO AUTHORITIES EVERY MONTH AS YOU ARE A FREE MAN RIGHT NOW.

YOU'RE BEING WATCHED.

SO I'M WONDERING WHY RISK IT, WHY SPEAK OUT NOW THE WAY YOU ARE WITH THE MEDIA AND WITH ME.

>> ACTUALLY, THEY WANT TO CHANGE THESE CONDITIONS AND MAYBE TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON ME, PUT SOME RESTRICTIONS.

SO LET'S SEE IN THIS WEEK WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

BUT THE THING IS THAT I DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER OPTION.

MY ONLY OPTION IS TO FIGHT FOR FREEDOM, TO FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY, TO FIGHT FOR A BETTER COUNTRY BECAUSE I WILL NEVER BE FREE UNTIL WE HAVE INNOCENT POLITICAL PRISONERS INSIDE THESE PLACES THAT ARE THE HELL ON EARTH AS WE SAY A FEW MOMENTS AGO.

I WILL NEVER BE FREE UNTIL WE HAVE DEMOCRACY.

I WILL FIGHT HAND IN HAND WITH MARIA CORINA MACHADO AND OTHER FREEDOM FIGHTERS FROM VENEZUELA UNTIL WE MAKE THIS TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

>> AND AFTER EVERYTHING YOU'VE GONE THROUGH YOU STILL SAY THAT YOU ARE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE FUTURE OF YOUR COUNTRY AND THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.

JESUS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> DOES AMERICA HAVE A MARIJUANA PROBLEM?

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" EDITORIAL BOARD ARGUES IN A RECENT OPINION PIECE THAT IT DOES.

AND IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE THAT IN JUST OVER TEN YEARS ATTITUDES TO THE DRUG HAVE CHANGED DRAMATICALLY.

IT'S NOW LEGAL SOME 40 STATES FOR MEDICAL USE.

234 FOR RECREATIONAL USE.

AND IT'S MORE COMMON TO USE CANNABIS DAILY THAN IT IS ALCOHOL.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE NATIONAL SURVEY ON DRUG USE AND HEALTH.

BUT IS IT AS SAFE AS REGULAR USERS THINK?

MARGARET HANEY IS A NEUROBIOLOGY PROFESSOR AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER AND HAS SPENT DECADES RESEARCHING HOW MARIJUANA AFFECTS THE BRAIN.

SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO UNPACK THE LATEST DATA.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

DR.

MARGARET HANEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> VERY HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> YOU'VE STUDIED CANNABIS FOR 30 YEARS.

YOU'VE STUDIED CANNABIS, THE HEALTH EFFECTS.

FOR SOME 30 YEARS NOW.

HOW DID YOU GET STARTED IN THIS?

THE REASON I ASK IS IT'S NOT EASY TO STUDY A DRUG THAT IS CONSIDERED ILLEGAL IN THE UNITED STATES.

EVEN IF IT'S FOR MEDICAL RESEARCH.

>> YEAH, NO, IT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I DON'T THINK THE PUBLIC IS AWARE OF HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO STUDY CANNABIS .

SO I GOT INTO IT BAYS WAS STUDYING THE COCAINE ADDICTION.

IT WAS KIND OF THE ERA OF CRACK COCAINE AND I WAS DOING A LOT OF RESEARCH LOOKING AT TREATMENTS FOR COCAINE.

WHICH IS AN EASIER DRUG TO STUDY BECAUSE IT'S NOT SCHEDULE 1, BECAUSE IT'S CONSIDERED TO HAVE SOME MEDICINAL BENEFIT.

WHILE I WAS DOING IN IN THE '90s THIS PAPER CAME OUT SHOWING THERE'S A CANNABIS WITHDRAWAL YOU COULD PRECIPITATE IN RATS.

AND IT REALLY BLEW OUR MINDS.

WE DID NOT THINK SOMETHING LIKE WITHDRAUM TO CANNABIS EXISTED.

THIS WAS TO THC.

SO WE ENROLLED DAILY CANNABIS SMOKERS, THEY LIVED IN THE LABS WITH US, WE HAD THE LICENSES AND APPROVALS IN PLACE TO GIVE THEM CANNABIS, AND WHEN WE SWITCHED OUR ACTIVE CANNABIS TO PLACEBO CANNABIS WE COULD TRACK THE WITHDRAWAL.

IT WAS IN THE '90s AND IT GOT ME COMPLETELY IMMERSED IN THE FIELD.

WHEN IT COMES TO STUDYING CANNABIS I HAVE TO HAVE CANNABIS STORED IN A DRUG SAFE IN A DRUG ROOM.

I GET IT WITH MY FINGERPRINTS, TREATED LIKE AS IF I WERE GIVING PEOPLE HEROIN.

IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT DRUG TO STUDY.

AS A SCHEDULE 1 DRUG.

YOU NEED D. E. A. LICENSE.

YOU NEED NARCOTICS CONTROL LICENSE.

YOU NEED FDA APPROVAL.

IT'S A VERY HIGH BAR AND IT'S SIGNIFICANTLY LIMITING HOW WE CAN STUDY THIS PLANT THAT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE USING THINKING IT HAS MEDICAL BENEFIT FOR WHICH WE DON'T HAVE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T DONE THESE STUDIES.

>> SO WHEN YOU SAW THAT MARIJUANA, CANNABIS, WAS BEING LEGALIZED AT A VERY RAPID PACE, RIGHT?

WERE YOU RELIEVED OR WERE YOU WORRIED?

>> I HAVE A LOT OF THOUGHTS ON THAT BECAUSE IT'S STILL FEDERALLY ILLEGAL.

STATES CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.

IT DOESN'T MATTER FEDERALLY.

IT'S FEDERALLY ILLEGAL.

SO I STILL HAVE TO OPERATE UNDER THOSE RULES.

SO THERE'S TWO THINGS WHEN YOU LEGALIZE.

THERE'S LEGALIZATION FOR RECREATIONAL USE AND THEN THERE'S MEDICAL CANNABIS.

WHAT REALLY, REALLY BOTHERED ME WAS THAT POLITICIANS WERE BASICALLY DECIDING WHAT WAS A MEDICINE OR NOT.

YOU KNOW, AT ONE POINT IN MANAGE MANAGE IT WAS DEEMED A MEDICATION FOR GLAUCOMA.

IN NEW YORK IT WAS ILLEGAL.

THAT'S NOT THE WAY WE DECIDE WHAT A MEDICINE IS.

SO JUST AS A SCIENTIST IT REALLY MADE ME CRAZY THAT IN LIEU OF ANY EVIDENCE THAT'S NEEDED FOR EVERY OTHER DRUG AND MEDICATION CANNABIS GOT THIS BACK DOOR ENTRY AS A MEDICINE.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY IT DOESN'T HAVE THERAPEUTIC POTENTIAL BUT I THINK EVERYONE WOULD BENEFIT IF WE COULD DEMONSTRATE WHAT IT HAS THERAPEUTIC POTENTIAL FOR.

THIS IS A SAFE DOSE.

THERE'S NO DATA.

SO WHEN HE THIS SAY TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR YOUR DOCTOR HAS NO EVIDENCE TO GO ON.

IT'S A PROBLEM THE WAY WE'RE TREATING IT AS A MEDICINE FOR EVERYTHING.

I THINK THERE'S LIKE 60 INDICATIONS IF YOU ADD THEM UP ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

IT VARIES STATE BY STATE.

ANTI-DEPRESSANTS DON'T VARY STATE BY STATE.

IT WORKS IN NEW JERSEY, NOT NEW YORK.

SO THAT'S WHERE WE WOULD --I WOULD REALLY WANT TO START.

RECREATIONAL USE, THAT'S A DECISION FOR VOTERS TO HAVE, DO WE WANT ANOTHER LEGAL INTOXICANT OUT THERE?

LET'S LOOK AT THE PROS AND CONS AND DECIDE FEDERALLY.

BUT IN TERMS OF THE MEDICINE IT REALLY BOTHERS ME.

>> WELL, IT'S ALREADY KIND OF DECIDED.

I MEAN, THE FACT IS A 2024 STUDY FROM CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY ESTIMATES THAT ROUGHLY 18 MILLION AMERICANS NOW USE MARIJUANA ALMOST DAILY.

THAT'S UP FROM UNDER 1 MILLION IN 1992.

THE STUDY SHOWS THAT IN 2022 FOR THE FIRST TIME THERE WERE MORE DAILY OR NEAR-DAILY USERS OF CANNABIS THAN ALCOHOL.

CANNABIS.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CANNABIS, WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

IS IT WEED?

>> YES.

IT'S A PLANT.

>> SO WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE SORT OF SELLING THC PRODUCTS, IS THAT THE SAME THING?

>> NO, IT CAN BE QUITE DIFFERENT.

AND THAT'S BEEN THE OTHER ENORMOUS SOCIETAL SHIFT.

YOU HAVE THE PLANT.

AND THE PLANT CAN ONLY GET UP TO MAYBE 25% THC.

IN THE '70s IT WAS 1% TO 4% THC.

NOW YOU CAN GET UP TO 20%, 25% THC.

BUT THE OTHER THING NOW IS THESE THC OILS SOLD IN PENS AND THEY'RE BBING AND IT'S VERY CONCENTRATED THC.

THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER CAN OF WORMS.

THE PLANT WE KIND OF UNDERSTAND HOW TO HANDLE ITS EFFECTS.

BUT THESE VERY, VERY HIGH CONCENTRATED SOLUTIONS OF THC THAT ARE SO EASY IN THE VAPE PENS TO MASK AND TO HIDE AND TO USE IN SCHOOL AND SO FORTH, THAT'S A REAL CONCERN.

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS PEOPLE THOUGHT WERE TRUE WHEN THERE WAS THIS BIG PUSH TO DECRIMINALIZE AND LEGALIZE THAT TURNED OUT JUST NOT TO BE TRUE?

>> LIKE THE ONE NEAR AND DEAR TO MY HEART IS ADDICTION.

YOU KNOW, THE WAY WE DEFINE A USE DISOFFERED, THERE'S A LIST OF CRITERIA.

AND ALL THE DRUGS SHARE THE SAME CRITERIA.

DO YOU UNDERGO WITHDRAWAL?

ARE YOU GIVING UP IMPORTANT THINGS IN YOUR LIFE FOR THE DRUG?

IS IT DISRUPTING YOUR FAMILY AND JOB?

THERE'S A SERIES OF CRITERIA AND THE MORE YOU MEET THE MORE SEVERE YOUR USE DISORDER IS.

WHEN I STARTED THE NOTION WAS LAUGHED AT, THAT ADDICTION TO CANNABIS CAN OCCUR.

AND NOW PEOPLE ARE SEEING IT.

AND I THINK MOST SIGNIFICANTLY ALL THE PEOPLE WHO START USING CANNABIS FOR THERAPEUTIC REASONS ARE DEVELOPING A USE DISORDER.

IF YOU'RE USING CANNABIS FOR PAIN, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

YOU'RE GOING TO USE IT AS SOON AS YOU WAKE UP.

YOU'RE GOING TO USE IT AS SOON AS IT WEARS OFF.

YOU'RE GOING TO USE IT REPEATEDLY THROUGHOUT THE DAY.

THESE ARE ENORMOUS RISK FACTORS FOR DEVELOPING A USE DISORDER.

AND NOBODY'S TELLING THEM THIS IS.

IT'S NOT GOING TO KILL YOU, BUT WHO WANTS IT?

BECAUSE THE DEITCHING FEATURE OF USE DISORDER, NOT ONLY IS IT IMPEDING VARIOUS ASPECTS OF YOUR LIFE BUT REINING IT IN IS ENORMOUSLY DIFFICULT.

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR COME IN FOR AND THEY'RE REALLY HARD ON THEMSELVES, IT'S JUST CANNABIS, WHY CAN'T I QUIT THIS?

WHY CAN'T I USE TWO DAYS A WEEK INSTEAD OF SEVEN DAYS A WEEK?

AND BECAUSE IT'S QUOTE UNQUOTE JUST CANNABIS.

THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE SEEING OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND WE'RE DOING MULTIPLE STUDIES LOOKING FOR POTENTIAL TREATMENTS FOR CANNABIS USE DISORDER BECAUSE THERE'S A NEED FOR IT.

>> YOU AS A MEDICAL RESEARCHER ARE SAYING YOU ARE SEEING PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY SICK, WHO ARE HAVING SERIOUS HEALTH EFFECTS, WHO ARE UNABLE TO STOP USING IF THEY WANT TO.

I'M JUST CURIOUS WHY IS THERE THIS BIG DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IN THE HEALTH FIELD AND WHAT OUR PUBLIC CONVERSATION ABOUT IT IS?

>> YES, COMPLETELY.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE PUBLIC CONVERSATION WE HAVE TO HAVE.

AND I THINK THERE'S BEEN THIS HALO EFFECT AROUND CANNABIS.

PARENTS HAVE BEEN KIND OF UNSURE WHAT TO SAY TO THEIR KIDS BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK IT'S ALL THAT TERRIBLE.

WE HAVE OUR OWN ENDOCANNABINOID SYSTEM, WE HAVE THIS PART OF OUR BRAIN WHERE THC BINDS AND IT GOES UNDER TREMENDOUS DEVELOPMENT IN THE ADOLESCENT YEARS.

THAT'S WHEN YOUR BRAIN DEVELOPS.

AND TO BE EXPOSING IT TO HIGH LEVELS OF THC ON A DAILY BASIS IS A RISK FACTOR.

THERE'S CONSEQUENCES FOR EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENTS.

OUT COMES A RANGE OF THINGS.

THE POINT IS WHAT I WOULD TRY TO SAY TO MY OWN SONS IS IT'S A BIG DIFFERENCE SMOKING EVERY DAY WHEN YOU'RE 14 AND WHEN YOU'RE 34.

THAT REALLY MATTERS.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING -- AGAIN, E. R. DOCTORS TALK ABOUT THE HIGH INCIDENT OF PSYCHIATRIC CONSEQUENCES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SMOKING AND THE YOUNGER YOU START THE MORE VULNERABLE YOU ARE TO DEVELOPING CANNABIS USE DISORDER BUT ALSO HAVING PSYCHIATRIC AND OTHER OUTCOMES.

>> WHAT I THINK I HEAR YOU SAYING IS YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE PSYCHIATRIC IMPACTS FROM HEAVY USE, DAILY USE, NEAR-DAILY USE.

WHY IS THAT?

>> THERE IS SOMETHING, CANNABIS-INDUCED PSYCHOSIS THAT IS INCREASINGLY PRETTY COMMON.

THESE RECEPTORS WHERE THC BINDS, EVERY PART OF THE BRARNGS AREAS THAT ARE IMPORTANT FOR MOOD, MOOD REGULATION AND SO FORTH.

BUT THERE IS AN ASSOCIATION BETWEEN A LOT OF CANNABIS USE AND DEVELOPMENT OF THESE PSYCHIATRIC SYMPTOMS, PSYCHOSIS BEING ONE OF THEM.

THAT'S THE OTHER THING THAT I REALLY CARE ABOUT.

IF YOU LOOK AT SURVEYS AS TO WHY PEOPLE SEEK MEDICAL CANNABIS, THE THREE TOP REASONS ARE PAIN, ANXIETY, AND SLEEP.

WELL, ALL THREE OF THOSE HAVE AN ENORMOUS PLACEBO RESPONSE.

THAT MEANS IF - -YOU HAVE SOCIETY TELLING YOU THIS PLANT IS GOING TO CURE WHAT AILS YOU.

THE FEVER RESPONSE.

PEOPLE TAKING SOMETHING THEY THINK IS GOING TO HELP THEM HAVE A TREMENDOUSLY HIGH, YOU KNOW, SUCCESS RATE.

THEY LITERALLY FEEL BETTER.

THEIR PAIN NEUROBIOLOGY LESSENS WHEN THEY TAKE A PLACEBO THAT THEY THINK IS GOING TO HELP.

SO PLACEBOS WORK.

SO PEOPLE DO FEEL BETTER.

THIS JUST CAN'T BE OUR MEDICAL POLICY.

THIS IS WHY WE NEED TO BRING GOOD SCIENCE TO THIS QUESTION.

BECAUSE WE NEED TO ACCOUNT FOR EVERY OTHER MEDICATION, YOU HAVE TO COMPARE IT TO A PLACEBO AND SAY THE MEDICATION IS SUPERIOR, IT'S NOT EXPECTATION.

WE DON'T HAVE THAT FOR CANNABIS.

AND THE FEW STUDIES THAT HAVE DONE THAT HAVEN'T REALLY PANNED OUT.

>> YOU'RE SAYING EVEN PEOPLE ARE USING CANNABIS EVERY DAY CAN'T STOP IF THEY WANT TO, SOMEHOW THEY DON'T SEE IT AS A PROBLEM OR THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS A PROBLEM.

WHY IS THERE THIS HALO EFFECT?

IS IT BECAUSE IT'S A PLANT?

BECAUSE PEOPLE THINK OH, IT'S A PLANT?

>> I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS SO UNREASONABLY DEMONIZED FOR SO LONG.

IT REALLY WAS.

I MEAN, WHEN I STARTED, MY PARTICIPANTS WERE THROWN IN JAIL CONSTANTLY FOR HAVING A NICKEL BAG IN THEIR POCKET.

THEY'D GO THROUGH THE SYSTEM FOR THE WEEKEND.

IT WAS SO DEMONIZED FOR SO LONG.

EVERYONE WAS JUST LIKE ENOUGH, THIS WENT TOO FAR IN THAT DIRECTION.

THIS IS JUST MY OWN THOUGHT ON THIS.

AND NOW IT WENT ON THE COMPLETE OTHER DIRECTION.

WHICH IS WHY IT WAS VERY HARD TO BRING UP ANY NEGATIVE CON CONSEQUENCES TO CANNABIS BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE LIKE WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS.

WE'RE NOT READY FOR THIS.

NOW, AGAIN, IT SEEMS TO ME PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO RECOGNIZE OF COURSE, IT'S A DRUG THAT CAN BE MISUSED AND IT'S A DRUG WITH POTENTIAL THERAPEUTIC CONSEQUENCES BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S ALL GOOD OR ALL BAD.

IT'S SOMETHING IN BETWEEN.

AND IF PEOPLE CAN COME INTO IT RECOGNIZING IF I'M USING IT FOR MY PAIN EVERY DAY I MIGHT RUN THE RISK OF DEVELOPING A PROBLEM WITH IT.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE'S WARNED OF THAT.

>> AND YOU TOUCHED ON THIS A BIT EARLIER.

THERE WAS A JOINT STUDY BETWEEN DANISH RESEARCHERS AND THE N. I. H. LOOKING AT MORE THAN 6 MILLION PEOPLE IN DENMARK.

AND THEY FOUND A STRONG LINK BETWEEN CANNABIS USE DISORDER AND SCHIZOPHRENIA, ESPECIALLY AMONG YOUNG MEN.

IT WAS ESTIMATED THAT UP TO 30% OF SCHIZOPHRENIA CASES IN MEN AGE 21 TO 30 MIGHT NOT HAVE OCCURRED WITHOUT HEAVY CANNABIS USE.

LIKE THERE'S A LINK THERE.

CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH.

THERE'S DEFINITELY A LINK.

THERE IS A STRONG ASSOCIATION BETWEEN CANNABIS USE AND PSYCHOTIC SYMPTOMS INCLUDING PSYCHOTIC DISORDERS.

THE CAUSALITY OF THE LINK IS STILL TRICKY.

SO WE KNOW THERE'S A LINK.

JUST LIKE WE KNOW THERE'S A LINK BETWEEN EARLY ONSET CANNABIS USE AND WORSE EDUCATIONAL OUTCOME.

THE TRICK IS THE CAUSALITY OF IT.

I REMAIN A TINY BIT AGNOSTIC ABOUT CAUSALITY.

BUT THERE IS A STRONG ASSOCIATION BETWEEN CANNABIS AND, YOU KNOW, PSYCHOTIC SYMPTOMS.

>> DO WE HAVE ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OCCASIONAL USE AND HEAVY USE?

IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?

AND WHAT DEFINES THE DIFFERENCE?

>> IT'S HARD FOR US TO SAY LIKE WHAT LEVEL IS ACCEPTABLE AND WHAT'S NOT CLINICALLY, WHAT IS A BIG RED FLAG FOR ME IS MORNING USE, WAKE AND BAKE.

SOMEBODY IS DOING THAT, TO ME THEY'RE SHOWING --IF YOU'RE DOING THAT EVERY DAY YOU'RE REALLY SHOWING SIGNS OF AN INCREASED LIKE LIVHOOD OF A CANNABIS USE DISORDER.

CLEARLY THE POISON'S IN THE DOSE.

IF YOU'RE BEFORE GOING TO BED, TWO NIGHTS A WEEK SMOKE HALF A JOINT, I'M NOT GOING TO BE --IT'S ALL PROPORTIONATE.

JUST LIKE THE PERSON WHO HAS A GLASS OF WINE ON A SATURDAY NIGHT.

OF COURSE IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DOSE.

THERE'S NO HARD AND FAST RULE.

THERE'S DIFFERENT VULNERABILITIES.

BUT DAILY USE, REPEATED USE THROUGHOUT THE DAY, THESE ARE ALL THE THINGS THAT ARE RED FLAGS FOR ME.

>> SO THERE WAS AN N. I. H. STUDY THAT FOUND THAT DAILY CANNABIS SMOKING WAS ASSOCIATED WITH A 25% HIGHER LIKELIHOOD OF HEART ATTACK AND A 42% HIGHER LIKELIHOOD OF STROKE.

WHY MIGHT THAT BE?

>> YEAH.

ONE OF ITS VERY RELIABLE AND ROBUST EFFECTS IS TO INCREASE HEARTRATE.

NOT TO THE LEVEL THAT COCAINE DOES.

BUT IT'S A VERY RELIABLE 10 TO 15 BEATS PER MINUTE INCREASE IN HEARTRATE.

AND I THINK IF THERE'S ANY UNDERLYING VULNERABILITY, THAT SOMEBODY'S VULNERABLE CARDIOVASCULARLY, THAT COULD BE ONE CONSEQUENCE.

>> THAT'S COUNTERINTUITIVE BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT IT'S A ELAXANT, IT WOULD OPEN UP THE SORT OF BLOOD FLOW.

RIGHT?

>> YOU KNOW, EVEN LOW DOSES OF ALCOHOL HAVE LIKE A STIMULANT- LIKE EFFECT.

AND I THINK THIS IS ALMOST LIKE A STIMULANT- LIKE EFFECT THAT CANNABIS HAS.

IT'S SOMETHING I CAN SEE, IT'S ONE OF MY MOST ROBUST EFFECTS I SEE IN THE LAB WHEN PEOPLE SMOKE CANNABIS IS AN INCREASE IN HEARTRATE.

>> INTERESTING.

>> THERE'S A LOT MORE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE CARDIOVASCULAR RISKS OF THAT FOR SURE.

>> THERE'S ALSO THIS OTHER SYNDROME -- >> NECEREMESIS.

>> WHICH IS VOMITING, RIGHT?

WHY DOES THAT HAPPEN?

>> WE DON'T ENTIRELY UNDERSTAND IT.

IT DIDN'T EXIST BACK IN THE '70s, '80s, WHEN CANNABIS WAS MUCH LESS POTENT.

BUT IT SEEMS TO BE WITH THESE NEW PRODUCTS, THIS PHENOMENON IS REAL.

>> IT AFFECTS APPARENTLY WOMEN, OLDER WOMEN MORE THAN MEN.

>> YEAH.

>> SO IN DECEMBER PRESIDENT TRUMP RECLASSIFIED CAN CAN BIS FROM SCHEDULE 1 TO SCHEDULE 3 DRUG BY EXECUTIVE ORDER.

AND THE WHITE HOUSE SAYS THIS IS GOING TO FACILITATE RESEARCH ON HOW MARIJUANA CAN TREAT PAIN.

IS THAT TRUE?

>> IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

THAT RESCHEDULING HASN'T OCCURRED YET.

AND I HAVE ADVOCATED FOR THIS BECAUSE I DO WANT TO OPEN THE DOORS FOR MORE PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO STUDY IT WITHOUT ALL THE REGULATORY BARRIERS IN PLACE.

IT WOULD BE EASIER TO STUDY.

THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF QUESTIONS THAT WOULD REMAIN.

AND OF COURSE THE CANNABIS INDUSTRY IT'S AI BILLION-DOLLAR INDUSTRY AND THEY WERE EXTREMELY EXCITED ABOUT THIS CHANGE.

THEY HAVE A CYNICAL REASON I THINK AS TO WHY THIS CHANGE IS HAPPENING.

IT SHOULD IMPROVE RESEARCH.

AND IT'S GOING TO GREATLY IMPROVE PROFITS FOR THE CANNABIS INDUSTRY BECAUSE THE TAX --THERE'S FINANCIAL DIFFERENCES WHEN IT'S -- >> WELL, YOU CUT OUT --ESSENTIALLY IF IT'S A SCHEDULE 1 DRUG YOU'RE BASICALLY BARRED FROM THE KIND OF BANKING SYSTEM MOST PEOPLE --MOST BUSINESSES USE.

>> EXACTLY.

>> BUT IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

WHAT ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING?

YOU STARTED HEARING PEOPLE TALK ABOUT BIG WEED.

>> YEAH.

>> IN THE SAME WAY THAT PEOPLE USED TO TALK ABOUT BIG PHARMA.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT IMPACT DOES THE COMMERCIALIZATION OF THE INDUSTRY HAVE ON THE ISSUES THAT YOU'VE BEEN WORKING ON?

>> NO, IT HAS A TREMENDOUS IMPACT BECAUSE THEY'RE DRIVING THE NARRATIVE.

BECAUSE THE SCIENCE CAN'T GET DONE AND THE HORSE IS OUT OF THE BARN, EVERYBODY'S GOBBLING IT UP FOR EVERY INDICATION, WE CAN'T KEEP UP.

THEY'RE DRIVING THE NARRATIVE.

THEY'RE SELLING --DISPENSARIES, IF I CAN LEAVE THE VIEWERS WITH ONE PIECE OF ADVICE, IS DO NOT BELIEVE A WORD YOUR VERY FRIENDLY BUDTENDER TELLS YOU IN A DISPENSARY BECAUSE THEY'RE MAKING IT UP.

THE CONTENT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THIS AND THE CAN BID YOL IS GOING TO HELP WITH THIS.

IT'S NONSENSE.

IT'S MADE UP.

THEY'RE MARKETERS AND THEY'RE DRIVEN BY THE CANNABIS INDUSTRY.

THIS IS HUGELY DISTRESSING TO ME.

THE OTHER AVENUE I CARE ABOUT GREATLY IS PREGNANT --USE DURING PREGNANCY.

NOT TO DEMONIZE ANYBODY.

BUT AGAIN YOU CALL A DISPENSARY AND SAY I'M NAUSEATED AND I'M PREGNANT THEY'RE GOING TO TELL YOU TO COME RIGHT IN AND GET A PARTICULAR PRODUCT.

ANOTHER TIME OF TREMENDOUS BRAIN DEVELOPMENT, NOT A GOOD TIME TO BE INTRODUCING CANNABIS OR CANNABINOIDS.

THAT'S DISTRESSING TO ME.

>> FOR PEOPLE LISTENING TO OUR CONVERSATION WHETHER THEY DON'T USE AT ALL, WHETHER THEY'RE OCCASIONAL USERS, WHETHER THEY'RE CONSIDERING IT, WHETHER THEY THINK GEE, I'M IN CHRONIC PAIN, I'D LIKE TO BE MORE COMFORTABLE, HOW WOULD YOU GO ABOUT CREATING A RISK-BENEFIT ANALYSIS FOR YOURSELF?

>> I THINK I JUST WOULD LEAVE PEOPLE WITH THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES TO USING CANNABIS.

I MEAN, IT CAN -- DEPENDING ON HOW YOU'RE TAKING IT IT COULD AFFECT METABOLISM OF OTHER DRUGS, IT INCREASES HEARTRATE.

THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES.

IT'S NOT THE WORST DRUG IN THE WORLD.

BUT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES TO USING IT.

AND WHATEVER THE BUDTENDERS TELL YOU, YOU CAN JUST FORGET.

DON'T TRUST THAT.

DON'T TRUST THEM AT ALL.

THAT'S SOMEBODY I REALLY WANT TO EMPHASIZE.

>> DR.

MARGARET HANEY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> YOU BET.

I'M VERY HAPPY TO BE HERE.

> >> AND FINALLY, SAMBA, SINGING AND SPARKLE.

IT IS OF COURSE CARNIVAL TIME.

ALL OVER SOUTH AMERICA MILLIONS OF REVELERS HAVE BEEN PARTYING IN THE STREETS, MARKING THE ANNUAL FESTIVAL.

IN EACH COUNTRY IT'S CELEBRATED PEOPLE HAVE THEIR OWN SPECIAL TAKE.

IN RIO, BRAZIL ON TOP OF THE WORLD FAMOUS SAMBA PARADE THERE ARE ALSO HUNDREDS OF STREET PARTIES KNOWN AS BLOCOS.

IN NORTHERN ARGENTINA PERFORMERS ENACT A CEREMONY CALLED THE DESCENT OF THE DEVILS TO BEGIN THE SEASON.

AND IN BOLIVIA'S EL ALTO CITY INDIGENOUS TRADITIONS TAKE CENTER STAGE WITH DANCES HONORING MOTHER EARTH AND THE BEGINNING OF THE HARVEST SEASON.

>> Translator: WE ARE ALWAYS VENERATING THE RAINY SEASON SO THAT THE PRODUCTS THAT NATURE GIVES US WILL BE PLENTY LIKE POTATOES, QUINOA, ACA, BARLEY.

THAT IS WHAT WE VENERATE IN THESE CARNIVAL TIMES.

>> HAPPY CARNIVAL TO YOU WILL ACELEBRATING.

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