Amanpour and Company

BUT NOW WE TURN TO A DIFFERENT CRISIS ACROSS THE ATLANTIC. GUN VIOLENCE IN THE UNITED STATES. JOURNALIST MARK FOLLMAN SPENT THE LAST DECADE FOCUSING ON THAT ISSUE. HIS NEW BOOK "TRIGGER POINTS" DETAILS HOW LEADERS COULD GO BEYOND THEIR THOUGHTS AND THEIR PRAYERS AND ACTUALLY SOLVE THIS PROBLEM. AND HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN AS BROOKLYN IS STILL RECOVERING FROM THIS WEEK'S SUBWAY SHOOTING. >> THANKS CHRISTIANE. MARK FOLLMAN THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. >> IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE. THANK YOU. >> SO AFTER THE MASSACRE AT THE MOVIE THEATER IN AURORA COLORADO IN 2012 YOU AND JONES CREATED -- I THINK IT WAS THE FIRST OF ITS KIND A OPEN SOURCE DATABASE DOCUMENTING MASS SHOOTINGS IN THE UNITED STATES. WOULD YOU JUST TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR RESEARCH. JUST SET THE TABLE FOR US. TELL US SOME OF THE BASICS. HOW DO YOU DEFINE A MASS SHOOTING? HAS IT CHANGED OVER THE YEARS? >> AFTER THE AURORA THEATER MASSACRE, I WAS ASKING THE QUESTION, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S GOING ON HERE? THIS WAS AT THE TIME AN UNPRECEDENTED EVENT. AND I REALLY WANTED TO KNOW MORE ABOUT IN PARTICULAR TYPE OF MASS ATTACK. AND I WENT LOOKING FOR DAT AND WAS STARTLED TO FIND THAT THERE WAS VIRTUALLY NOTHING AVAILABLE. THAT WAS THE CATALYST FOR BUILDING IN DATABASE THAT WE BEGAN WORKING AT MOTHER JONES. AND COLLECTED DATA ON DOZENS OF CASES GOING BACK 30 YEARS. OF COURSE WE ADDED TO IT WITH FREQUENCY AND HAVE EVER SINCE. AND ONE OF THE -- THE INTERESTING FINDINGS EARLY ON WAS THAT A LOT OF THE GUNS BEING USED IN THE CRIMES WERE OBTAINED LEGALLY. ANOTHER I THINK VERY STARK DATA POINT WAS THAT MANY OF THESE MASS SHOOTERS WERE SUICIDAL WHICH SPEAKS TO THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES GOING ON IN THESE CASES. AND PERHAPS TO PREVENTION WORK. AND ANOTHER THING THAT I LEARNED PRETTY EARLY ON FROM STUDYING THE CASES AND DIGGING DEEPER INTO THEM WAS THAT THERE WAS INDEED A TRAIL OF BEHAVIORAL WARNING SIGNS IN ALL OF THESE CASES, THAT THERE WERE WAYS TO SEE THIS COMING, CONTRARY TO THIS POPULAR THEME WE HAVE IN OUR MEDIA COVERAGE, THAT NOBODY COULD HAVE POSSIBLY IMAGINED THIS GUY WOULD HAVE DONE THIS. WE HEAR THE COMMENTS FROM PEOPLE CLOSE TO THE PERPETRATORS OF THE ATTACKS OFTEN, A QUIET GUY AND COULDN'T HAVE IMAGINED THIS. AND IT CONVEYS THIS SENSE THAT THESE ARE UNDETECTIBLE AND THAT THEY SORT OF BURST OUT OF NOWHERE BACKUP AND THAT'S NOT TRUE. IN ALL THESE CASES THERE IS A TRAIL OF BEHAVIOR AND ACTIVITY THAT IS OFTEN NOTICEABLE TO PEOPLE AROUND THE PERPETRATORS OF MASS SHOOTINGS. I THINK THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT EARLY DISCOVERY. THAT'S PART OF WHAT LED ME TO WRITE THE BOOK. >> ANY CHANGES OVER TIME IN WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN IN THE TRAJECTORY HERE? OR IS IT THE SIMILARITIES THAT STAND OUT TO YOU? >> YEAH. WELL ONE BIG QUESTION EARLY ON THAT ALSO PROMPTED THE SEARCH FOR DATA WAS IS THIS HAPPENING MORE OFTEN? AND WE DEVELOPED A SET OF CRITERIA -- IT'S ONE OF THE CHALLENGES OF STUDYING THE ISSUE IS WHAT IS A MASS SHOOTING. THERE'S BEEN CONSIDERABLE DEBATE ABOUT THAT IN REPEAT YEARS AND THERE ARE BROADER CRITERIA THAT IS OFTEN USED BY THE NEWS MEDIA TO SAY THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THESE CASES A YEAR. THAT'S NOT THE WAY WE CAME AT IT. WE USE ADD NARROWLY DEFINED CRITERIA LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, PUBLIC ATTACKS, OFTEN BY A LONE SHOOTER IN WHICH FOUR OR MORE VICTIMS WERE KILLED, THAT LATER ON CHANGED TO THREE OR MORE BECAUSE WE WERE FOLLOWING THE GUIDELINES OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WHICH DECIDED TO DEFINE IT AS THREE OR MORE. ULTIMATELY THIS IS AN ARBITRARY BASELINE FOR VICTIMS. >> BUT KILLED -- YOU CAN BE GRIEVOUSLY HURT IN A SHOOTING AND NOT DIE. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> YOU CAN HAVE LIFELONG INJURIES. >> RIGHT. IT UNDERSCORES THERE IS NO PERFECT WAY TO DEFINE THE PROBLEM, RIGHT BECAUSE THE NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY ATTACK THAT WE JUST SAW NO ONE DIED, FORTUNATELY. BUT THAT IS THIS TYPE OF MASS SHOOTING WHERE A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WERE INJURED. AND SO IT IS A PROBLEM OF DEFINING AND UNDERSTANDING THIS ISSUE. BUT IN ORDER TO GET A DATA SET YOU HAVE TO DRAW SOME LINES. AND SO THAT'S THE WAY THAT WE DID IT. AND WITH THAT MORE CONSERVATIVE APPROACH WHAT WE FOUND IS THAT THIS PROBLEM HAS ESCALATED OVER THE PAST DECADE BY NEARLY THREE-FOLD. IT IS A GROWING PROBLEM IN TERMS OF THE SPECIFIC TYPE OF PUBLIC MASS SHOOTING EVENTS. >> ANY THOUGHTS ABOUT WHY? >> IT'S A REALLY TOUGH QUESTION TO ANSWER. I THINK THERE ARE SOME BROADER CULTURAL AND POLITICAL FORCES IN PLAY, RIGHT? AND CERTAINLY IN RECENT TIME WITH THE STRESSES OF THE PANDEMIC, WITH OUR POLITICAL VOLATILITY IN RECENT YEARS, POLARIZATION THAT'S GOING ON, THE CONTINUAL INCREASE IN THE A FIREARMS AVAILABLE IN THE COUNTRY. THERE WAS RECORD GUN BUYING IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS. SO ALL OF THESE THINGS COMING TOGETHER, I THINK ARE CREATING A MORE VOLATILE MIX. AND, YOU KNOW, EVEN WITH THAT, THOUGH, IT'S HARD TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES OUR SOCIETY SO VIOLENT IN THIS WAY? >> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE -- THE LATEST INCIDENT THAT BRINGS US TOGETHER, THIS -- THIS HORRIFYING INCIDENT IN THE NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS. AND FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT FROM NEW YORK, WHO NEVER VISITED NEW YORK, IT'S JUST -- I JUST FEEL I NEED TO EXPLAIN JUST HOW IMPORTANT THE SUBWAY IS TO THE LIFE OF NEW YORKERS. YOU KNOW, SUBWAY IS ONE OF THE LIFE BLOOD OF THE CITY. IT'S HOW PEOPLE GET AROUND. IT'S -- IT'S -- I DON'T KNOW, IT'S LIKE IT'S A FUNDAMENTAL PART OF LIFE IN NEW YORK FOR MOST PEOPLE. >> RIGHT. >> AND, YOU KNOW, THE MAN WITH THE SMOKE -- ALL -- IT'S HORRIFYING ON EVRL EVERY SLEVL. SMOKE YOU'RE UNDERGROUND, IN A CLOSED IN SPACE. IT'S RUSH HOUR, SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE AND THEN THE PERSON STARTS SHOOTING. NOW WE DO KNOW THAT THE PERSON HAS -- THE PERSON HAS BEEN APPREHENDED AND SOME FACTS ABOUT THIS PERSON ARE STARTING TO EMERGE. SO JUST TELL ME WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU ABOUT THIS INCIDENT. >> YEAH, I THINK THAT -- IT WAS VERY HORRIFYING IN THE WAY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW IN A CERTAIN SENSE TOUCHED PEOPLE IN A WAY THAT IS VERY BROAD-BASED. TO IMAGINE GOING THROUGH THAT FOR PEOPLE WHO USE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, AND THAT IS PART OF THE NATURE OF THIS PROBLEM, AS I'VE STUDIED IT, THE MASS SHOOTINGS, THERE IS A QUEST FOR SENSATION ALISM IN A LOT OF THE PERPETRATORS. IF YOU THINK BACK TO WHEN A MAN WALKED INTO A MOVIE THEATER IN AURORA COLORADO, AND OPENED FIRE AND SHOT DOZENS OF PEOPLE. AT THE TIME THAT WAS AN UNPRECEDENTED ACT IN A MOVIE THEATER. THAT WASN'T ENTIRELY A COINCIDENCE. AND WE'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN WITH SCHOOLS AND OTHER SETTINGS. THIS IS A CLUE TO SOME OF THE BEHAVIORS THAT GO INTO THESE ATTACKS. AND THEY ARE PLANNED ATTACKS. THESE ARE PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT CARRYING OUT WHAT THEY SEE AS A VALID IDEA FOR A SOLUTION TO THEIR GRIEVANCES AND RAGE AND PROBLEMS. AND THEY ARE SEEKING ATTENTION FOR IT IN MANY CASES. AND I SUSPECT THAT THAT'S IN PLAY IN THIS CASE TOO. I WANT TO BE CAREFUL, BECAUSE THERE IS STILL A LOT ABOUT THIS CASE THAT WE DON'T KNOW YET. BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THIS WAS AN ATTACK THAT WAS PLANNED OVER A LENGTHY PERIOD OF TIME. AND THERE IN LIES THE PROMISE OF IN APPROACH OF BEHAVIORAL THREAT ASSESSMENT THAT THE FIELD OF PREVENTION WORE WORK THAT I WRITE ABOUT IN TRYING ARE POINTS WHICH IS TO FOCUSED ON THIS PROCESS OF BEHAVIORS AND CIRCUMSTANCES AND THINKING THAT LEADS UP TO THESE ATTACKS AND USE THAT AS A WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY TO INTERVENE BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. THE QUESTION -- >> TELL US ABOUT WHY YOU SAY -- YOU SAY THAT ONE OF THE BIG MYTHS IS THAT PEOPLE JUST SNAP. AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S JUST NOT TRUE. THAT MOST OF THE ATTACKS ARE IN FACT PLANNED. TELL US MORE ABOUT THAT. >> THAT'S RIGHT. THIS IS ONE OF THE -- DID I THINK VERY UNHELPFUL MYTHS WE RECYCLE IN THE NEWS MEDIA. AFTER EVERY ONE OF THE ATTACKS. YOU ALWAYS HEAR THE QUESTION ASKED WHAT MADE THE GUY SNAP? AS IF THIS WAS AN IMPULSIVE CRIME, IMPULSIVE ACT. JUST WENT CRAZY AND DECIDED TO GO SHOOT UP THE SUBWAY. NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED HERE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE CASE EVIDENCE WE ALREADY HAVE, EVEN WITHIN A COUPLE OF DAYS, THIS IS A PERSON WHO WAS THINKING ABOUT DOING THIS FOR A LONG TIME, PLANNING IT, TAKING STEPS TOWARD IT AND THEN GOING AND DOING IT. IF WE UNDERSTAND THAT BETTER WE HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE TO WORK WITH TO TRY TO GET AT THE NATURE OF THIS PROBLEM AND GET IN THE WAY OF IT. >> TELL ME ABOUT THE MENTAL HEALTH ASPECT OF THIS. YOU SAY YOU THINK THE KIND OF MENTAL ILLNESS DIMENSION OF THIS IS -- IS MISUNDERSTOOD. I'M STRUGGLING WITH -- TO UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT OF VIEW HERE. BECAUSE THIS IS -- IS THIS -- YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE NOT MENTALLY ILL WHO NIJ IN THIS CONDUCT? THEY THINK THIS IS RATIONAL BEHAVIOR? BUT ISN'T THAT ONE OF THE HALLMARK OF THE SOME ASPECTS OF MENTAL ILLNESS IS YOU DON'T KNOW YOU'RE SICK. >> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION, MICHEL. IT'S A TOUGH ASPECT OF THIS BECAUSE WE RUN UP THE LIMITS OF LANGUAGE IN A CERTAIN SENSE WITH OUR LAY UNDERSTANDING OF MENTAL ILLNESS. THE ISSUE HERE IS THAT AS I WAS SAYING EARLIER THESE ARE PLANNED ATTACKS. THESE ARE NOT PEOPLE WHO ARE INSANE JUST SNAPPING. AND THAT SORT OF POPULAR NARRATIVE IS MISGUIDED IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S GOING ON HERE. THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES WITH BLAMING MENTAL DISEASE. I MEAN, WE SEE MENTAL ILLNESS BLAMED FOR THE ATTACKS AS THE CAUSE BUT THERE ISN'T ANY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THAT. THERE IS A LONG BODY OF CASE RESEARCH AND BROADER RESEARCH IN THE MENTAL HEALTH FIELD THAT SHOWS THAT MENTAL ILLNESS IS NOT CORRELATED WITH VIOLENT BEHAVIOR IN ANY MEANINGFUL WAY. IT'S NOT PREDICTIVE OF VIOLENCE. MOST PEOPLE WHO HAVE CLINICALLY DIAGNOSABLE MENTAL ILLNESS ARE NOT VIOLENT AND IN FACT MORE LIKELY TO BE VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE. WHEN WE BLAME MENTAL ILLNESS IT'S COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND STIGMATIZING. WHERE IN GETS DIFFICULT IN THE CONTEXT OF MASS SHOOTERS IS THAT THESE REPORTS ARE PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT MENTALLY HEALTHY. THEY HAVE LOTS OF VERY SERIOUS PROBLEMS. AND PRENLZ MAY BE IN THE MIX BUT THE DISTINCT IS WHAT WE TEND TO CALL CRAZY OR INSANE. WE REGARD THESE PEOPLE AS COMPLETELY DETACHED FROM REALITY. BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE IN MOST CASES. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO HAVE RATIONAL THOUGHT PROCESSES IN TERMS OF YOU KNOW DEVELOPING AN IDEA FOR WHAT THEY WANT TO DO AND THEN PLANNING AND CARRYING IT OUT. SO JUST DISMISS IT AS CRAZY DOESN'T HELP US UNDERSTAND IT LET ALONE PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING. >> SO WHAT WOULD HELP? WHAT IS A MORE CONSTRUCTIVE WAY TO LOOK AT THIS PHENOMENON? >> WELL, I SEE A LOT OF PROMISE THIS THIS METHOD BEHAVIORAL THREAT ASSESSMENT I WRITE ABOUT IN TRIGGER POINTS. I WAS ABLE TO GAIN ACCESS TO A LOT OF CASES PARTICULARLY IN SCHOOL SETTINGS ONE IN PARTICULAR IN THE CITY OF SALEM ORGAN, ONE OF THE PIONEERS OF THIS MODEL IN AN EDUCATIONAL SETTING. AND WITH THESE CASES SEE, YOU KNOW, A WHOLE RANGE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE STRUGGLING WITH SOME SERIOUS PROBLEMS AND THEN BEHAVING IN WAYS THAT WERE RAISING ALARM. AND IN THE HANDS OF A MULTIDISCIPLINARY TEAM, A THREAT ASSESSMENT TEAM THAT BRINGS TO BEAR EXPERTISE IN MENTAL HEALTH, EDUCATION, IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, IN JUVENILE SOCIAL SERVICES, BRINGING TOGETHER THESE PEOPLE WHO EVALUATE AND THEN DEVELOP A PLAN TO MANAGE AND OFFER CONSTRUCTIVE INTERVENTIONS, I HAVE SEEN CASES WHERE OVER TIME, OVER MANY MONTHS THAT HELPS A PERSON ONTO TO A BETTER PATH, AWAY FROM VIOLENT THINKING. AND IN THE LONG TERM, YOU KNOW, GOES ON TO DO OKAY, OR JUST FINE AND DOESN'T COMMIT VIOLENCE. IT'S ONE OF THE TRICKY THINGS ABOUT THIS FIELD IS THE QUESTION OF HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCCESS, RIGHT? BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE OF SUCCESS IN A THREAT ASSESSMENT CASE IS THE ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE. IT'S THE ABACCEPTS OF A VIOLENT OUTCOME. SO, YOU KNOW, IN A CERTAIN FUNDAMENTAL WAY WE ARE RELIESING ON THE COUNTERFACTUAL INFORMATION TO MEASURE THE EFFICACY OF THE WORK. >> BUT YOU ARGUE IN THE BOOK THAT THERE HAVE IN FACT BEEN NUMEROUS POTENTIAL INCIDENTS OF VIOLENCE THAT HAVE BEEN AVERTED BECAUSE OF THESE SPECIFIC METHODS. >> YES. I THINK AS MUCH AS WE CAN SAY THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF A COUNTERFACTUAL, RIGHT. I WRITE IN DETAIL ABOUT ONE CASE IN A BOOK OF A HIGH SCHOOL KID NAPD BRANDON THREATENING TO BRING A GUN TO SCHOOL AND SHOOT UP THE SCHOOL IN A SPECIFIC WAY. HE TALKS ABOUT THE DAY HE IS GOING TO DO IT. HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE ACQUIRES THE GUN FROM HIS FATHER'S GUN EXPENSIVE. HE OBTAINED THE CODE. THESE ARE IMPORTANT SIGNALS TO A THREAT ASSESSMENT TEAM. THAT KIND OF SPECIFICITY. THEY LOOKED AT HIM QUICKLY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON THERE. AND TO TRY TO ASSESS, DOES HE HAVE ACCESS TO A WEAPON? WHAT ELSE IS MAYBE DRIVING THIS VIOLENT THINKING? HE HAD A WHOLE HISTORY OF PROBLEMS AND CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WERE GOING ON THAT THEY WERE ABLE TO ADDRESS THROUGH REACHING OUT TO HIM WITH COUNSELING SUPPORT, WITH EDUCATIONAL SUPPORT, MONITORING HIM CLOSELY, WORKING WITH THE FAMILY. WHICH IS NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE. SO IT'S COMPLICATED WORK. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE THAT I WRITE ABOUT IN THE BOOK YOU COULD SEE HOW OVER TIME GETTING IN KID THE HELP THAT HE NEEDED WAS VERY EFFECTIVE. >> THE TRICKY ISSUE -- BECAUSE THE REALITY OF IT IS MR. FOLLMAN, THAT STATISTICALLY WHITE MALES ARE MORE LIKELY TO OWN A GUN THAN ANY OTHER -- ANY OTHER DEMOGRAPHIC IN THE UNITED STATES. IT'S JUST A FACT. AND ON THE OTHER HAND, SOME OF THE KINDS OF VIOLENCE THAT IS IT SO DESTABILIZING TO A COMMUNITY LIKE SHOOTING UP A MOVIE THEATER OR SHOOTING UP A BASKETBALL COURT, FOR EXAMPLE, I JUST WONDER HOW THIS MODEL -- HOW DOES THIS MODEL ADDRESS SOMETHING LIKE THAT? OR EVEN THIS SUBWAY -- THIS PERSON IN THE SUBWAY SHOOTER HERE WHO WAS AN ADULT, ISOLATED? I'M WONDERING HOW DOES THAT WORK? I MEAN, DOES THIS INVOLVE LIKE CONSTANT MONITORING OF SOCIAL MEDIA LIKE HOW DOES IT WORK THAT THESE TOOLS COULD BE BROUGHT TO BEAR? >> YEAH, YOU'RE GOING TO ANOTHER GREAT AND ESSENTIAL QUESTION HERE ABOUT HOW YOU CAN POTENTIALLY SCALE THIS MORE BROADLY IN COMMUNITIES. AND THERE ARE SOME BIG CHALLENGES THERE AS WELL. IT'S NOT A MATTER OF SURVEILLANCE. I THINK THAT'S ANOTHER IMPORTANT THING TO CLARIFY HERE. THIS ISN'T ABOUT DRAG NET SURVEILLANCE. THAT'S NOT THE WAY THESE CASES BEGIN. SOCIAL MEDIA ACTIVITY IS SOMETHING THAT THREAT ASSESSMENT TEAMS WILL LOOK AT IN A SPECIFIC CASE. IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO DO THAT IN THE AGE WE ARE LIVING IN NOW IN TERMS OF DEVELOPING A PICTURE, A MORE HOLISTIC PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON WITH A PERSON AND LOOKING FOR WARNING BEHAVIORS AND WARNING ASSIGNS. BUT WHEN YOU GET MORE BROADLY INTO THE QUESTION OF COMMUNITY, I THINK THE ANSWER LIES MORE WITH THE WAY THAT THIS RELATES TO OTHER FORMS OF COMMUNITY-BASED VIOLENCE VECHGS THAT HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO BE EFFECTIVE. EVIDENCE-BASED APPROACHES TO INTERVENING WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNING, WHO MAY BE INVOLVED IN GANG VIOLENCE OR WHO ARE IN SITUATIONS VERY, YOU KNOW, THERE IS AN ESCALATED RISK OF GUNFIRE, WHETHER BY COMMUNITY OR BY BEHAVIOR. AND THESE PROGRAMS THAT SEEK TO GO IN AND HELP PEOPLE TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS THAT ARE DRIVING IT, RIGHT, WHETHER IT'S SOCIOECONOMIC, WHETHER IT'S EMPLOYMENT-RELATED, WHETHER SCHOOL RELATED. THIS IS -- I CAME TO SEE THIS REALLY AS AN ADDITIVE SOLUTION, AN ADDITIONAL TOOL USED TO ADDRESS THE GUN VIOLENCE PROBLEM. I THINK YOU ARE POINTING TO A NUMBER OF OTHER ISSUES THAT ARE VERY IMPORTANT THAT EXACERBATE IT. BUT I FEEL THAT, YOU KNOW, WE REALLY NEED TO COME AT THIS EVERY WAY WE CAN TO SOLVE IT. BECAUSE THE DEBATE WE ARE PERPETUATEUALLY STUCK IN ABOUT GUN REGULATIONS WE HAVE SEEN WHERE IT GOES OVER YEARS AND EVEN DECADES. THE FACT REMAINS, WE HAVE AN ENORMOUS GUN VIOLENCE PROBLEM AND A VAST QUANTITY OF GUNS IN THIS COUNTRY. THAT ISN'T CHANGING BROADLY ANY TIME SOON. SO THEREFORE FOR ME THE QUESTION BECAME WHAT MORE CAN WE DO? AND I THINK THESE FORMS OF VIOLENCE PREVENTION WORK HAVE PROMISE. >> IT JUST SEEMS TO ME WE ARE LIMPING IN TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS. THERE IS THE WORLD A THAT'S SAYS THAT MORE THE GUNS THE MORE SAFE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY GUNS IN CIRCULATION IN THIS SOCIETY AND SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE ABOUT IT. IS THERE ANY -- DOES YOUR REPORTING INDICATE THAT THERE IS ANY POINT OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN THESE GROUPS? >> WELL, I THINK ALL THE FAMILIAR ARGUMENTS WE HAVE ABOUT KNOWS ISSUES WE WILL SEE THOSE CONTINUE TO BE REPEATED. HOWEVER, THERE ARE MORE SPECIFIC POLICIES THAT HAVE DEVELOPED THAT I THINK THERE IS MORE ROOM FOR AGREEMENT ON. AND ONE OF THEM INTERSECRETARIES DIRECTLY WITH THE METHOD OF THREAT ASSESSMENT, WHAT'S KNOWN NOW AS SO-CALLED RED FLAG LAWS, A POLICY TO REMOVE FIREARMS THROUGH A COURT PROCESS FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE THOUGHT TO BE A DANGER TO THEMSELVES OR TO OTHERS. AND THIS IS A POLICY THAT'S GROWN RAPIDLY IN RECENT YEARS. IT'S NOW IN 19 STATES, I BELIEVE AND HAS STRONG BIPARTISAN SUPPORT IN MOST CASES. AND SO THIS IS A I THINK A PROMISING EXAMPLE WHERE WE CAN FIND MORE CONSENSUS ON GUN REGULATION AND ALSO INTERSECTING WITH PREVENTION WORK IN A POTENTIALLY VERY EFFECTIVE WAY. BECAUSE WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THREAT ASSESSMENT CASES YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NEEDING TOOLS FOR INTERVENTION WHEN SOMEONE IS TURNING DANGEROUS. AND IF THEY HAVE A FIREARM OR ACCESS TO A FIREARM WHAT CAN YOU DO ABOUT IT? HISTORICALLY, THERE WERE NOT A LOT OF LEGAL TOOLS AND THIS IS A RELATIVELY NEW ONE THAT IN FACT HAS SPREAD IN THE WAKE OF A MASS SHOOTING. CALIFORNIA PUT THIS IN PLACE IN SHORTLY AFTER THE 2014 MASS SHOOTING IN SANTA BARBARA. BECAUSE THERE WERE BEHAVIORAL WARNING SIGNS IN THAT CASE AND QUESTIONS ABOUT WHY WASN'T THERE INTERVENTION WITH THIS INDIVIDUAL? AND IT'S NOW SPREAD TO OTHER STATES, I THINK, WITH SIMILAR INTENT. SO THAT -- THAT I THINK IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW WE CAN MOVE FORWARD AND CAN FIND PROGRESS ON THE FIERCE DEBATE WE HAVE OVER GUNS AND GUN POLITICS. AND I TRY TO REALLY ADVOCATE AGAINST THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD BE RESIGNED TO NOTHING EVER CHANGING. I THINK THAT'S ANOTHER MYTH WE HAVE ABOUT THIS PROBLEM. THERE HAS BEEN LOTS OF CHANGE AND POTENTIAL FOR MORE. >> MARK FOLLMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US. >> THANKS SO MUCH. IT GREAT TO TALK WITH YOU MICHEL.