Amanpour and Company

>>> TURNING NOW TO ONE OF THE WORST DRUG EPIDEMICS IN AMERICAN HISTORY. NEW SCRIPTED DRAMA "DOPE SICK" EXPLORES HOW PURDUE PHARMA'S HIGHLY ADDICTED WITH A RIPPLE EFFECT ON COMMUNITIES THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. ACTORS PETER SARSGUARD AND JOHN HOAKENOPPE DISCUSS THEIR ROLES IN THE PROJECT AND THE URGENCY OF THE OPIOID CRISIS. >> BIANA, THANKS. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. FIRST, I WANT TO ASK BOTH OF YOU WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING THROUGH THE SCRIPT, PREPARING FOR THIS, WHAT SURPRISED YOU? PETER, LET ME START WITH YOU. >> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS THIS CAMPAIGN BY PURDUE PHARMA TO MAKE THE PEOPLE WHO BECAME ADDICTED SEEM LIKE THE PROBLEM. THEY WERE KIND OF A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE PRESCRIBED THE DRUG, THAT THEY WERE PRONE TO IT, THAT THEY WERE ADDICTS, THAT THEY WERE LESS THAN. AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO WHAT GOT ME ANGRY. >> I WOULD AGREE THAT ALL OF THAT WAS CONCERTED AND BY DESIGN AND THAT THE IDEA AT THE END OF THE DAY WAS JUST TO PUSH OPIUM ON THE MASSES TO TRY TO FIND A WAY TO BEEF THAT MARKET UP. AND I WAS ALSO DISHEARTENED THAT WE LIKED TO PUT OUR FAITH IN THESE GOVERNMENTAL ENTITIES THAT ARE THERE TO PROTECT US. I WAS DISHEARTENED AT THE BREAKDOWN THAT HAPPENED AT THE GOVERNMENTAL LEVEL. THE FDA THAT ALLOWED THIS TO MAKE IT TO MARKET AND INFORMED THAT IT MADE IT TO MARKET. >> WE'LL ROLL WITH A CLIP FOR THE FIRST TIME TALKING ABOUT THE PHRASE LESS THAN 1% ADDICTIVE. >> ANOTHER PATIENT COMING IN HERE IN A FEW MINUTES. >> OF COURSE. I WON'T TAKE TOO MUCH OF YOUR TIME. YOU'RE PROBABLY ALREADY FAMILIAR WITH OUR DRUG, MS CONTIN. >> VERY GOOD DRUG. >> WHAT PURDUE DID IS TOOK THE SAME SYSTEM, THE CONTIN SYSTEM AND PRODUCED OPIOID FOR CHRONIC AND MODERATE PAIN. >> I WOULD NEVER PRESCRIBE A NARCOTIC FOR MODERATE PAIN. THERE'S A LONG HISTORY DOWN HERE OF PILL ABUSE. >> LESS THAN 1% OF PEOPLE GET ADDICTED TO OXYCONTIN. >> THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE. >> BUT IT IS. THE FDA ACTUALLY CREATED A SPECIAL LABEL TO SAY THAT IT'S LESS ADDICTIVE THAN OTHER OPIOIDS, RIGHT THERE. >> YOUR MOST EFFECTIVE TALKING POINT IS THE FDA LABEL. THESE ARE YOUR NEW MAGIC WORDS. DELAYED ABSORPTION AS PROVIDED BY OXYCONTIN TABLETS. >> DELAYED ABSORPTION AS PROVIDED BY OXYCONTIN TABLETS. S >> IS BELIEVED TO REDUCE THE ABUSE LIABILITY OF A DRUG. >> I'VE NEVER SEEN A LABEL LIKE >> AS YOU READ THROUGH THE SCRIPT AND SEE THE WAYS THAT THE SALESPEOPLE WERE WORKING THEIR DOCTORS, TRYING TO IMPROVE THE REACH OF THE DRUG. ALMOST READS LIKE FICTION. YOU COULDN'T MAKE THIS UP. THIS IS WHAT WAS HAPPENING ON A DAILY BASIS. >> THE INCENTIVES PUT BEFORE THEM WERE RIDICULOUS. AND OBVIOUS AND I THINK ONE OF THINGS THAT I REALLY CAME OUT OF THIS THINKING WAS THIS REALLY COMES DOWN TO A FAULT IN OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM WHEN YOU HAVE SO FEW PEOPLE THAT HAVE A PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN OR A HEALER OR WHATEVER IT IS IN YOUR CIRCLE THAT IS SOMEONE THEY CAN RELY ON AND TRUST THAT THE DOCTOR GETTING HIS EAR PULLED MORE BY THE SALESPERSON AND THE GOVERNMENT IS PROTECTING BIG PHARMA MORE THAN IT IS THE INDIVIDUAL, AND I THINK CONSUMER LEVEL, THE PERSON IN NEED, THE PERSON IN PAIN, THEY'RE JUST BEING LEFT OUT COMPLETELY. TO ME, IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO RESTORING THAT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PHYSICIAN AND THE PATIENT. AND FINDING A PLACE FOR IT IN OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM. >> TOTALLY AGREE AND WE'RE KIND OF IN A PERFECT STORM SCENARIO TOO WHERE DOCTORS, I THINK, GENERALLY ARE GOOD PEOPLE, PRINCIPLED PEOPLE DOING THE BEST THEY CAN FOR ALL OF THEIR PATIENTS BUT WE'RE IN A SITUATION RIGHT NOW WHERE YOUR AVERAGE DOCTOR GETS, WHAT, 12 OR 13 MINUTES WITH YOU WHEN YOU COME IN FOR A CHECK-UP AND NOT ENOUGH TIME FOR THEM AND I THINK MOST HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS WOULD ECHO THAT. AND THEN THEY'RE APPROACHED BY THESE DRUG REPS WHO HAND THEM LABELS THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE FDA AND THEY HAVE TO TAKE IT AT FACE VALUE. THEY HAVE TO BELIEVE THE TESTS THAT WERE SUBMITTED BY PURDUE PHARMA THROUGH THE FDA FOR THE APPROVAL PROCESS AND AGAIN, THAT GETS BACK TO SOME OF THE THINGS THAT JUST BLEW US AWAY. AS YOU READ INTO THIS AND FIND TERMS LIKE PSEUDO ADDICTION, WHEN A PATIENT WHO IS DEALING WITH ACTUAL ADDICTION, THEY COME UP WITH THE TERM THAT TURNS IT INTO SOMETHING WARMER AND FLUFFIER. IT CAN BE DEALT WITH, WITH MORE OF THE DRUG. >> WHAT'S FASCINATING TO ME, WE WERE IN THIS CLIMATE WHERE THERE WAS THIS NATIONAL RETHINKING OF PAIN AND IT WASN'T UNTIL THIS SERIES AND A LITTLE BIT OF THE OTHER RESEARCH REALIZING THAT THIS WASN'T BY COINCIDENCE, THAT THIS WHOLE THING WAS BY DESIGN AND WE WERE PART OF A CAMPAIGN THAT WE DIDN'T REALIZE. WE WERE PART OF THAT WAS ACTUALLY SERVING AN END GOAL. >> ACTUALLY, YOU THINK ABOUT, I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS RECENTLY AS LAST YEAR GOING INTO A HOSPITAL AND SEEING A PAIN CHART, THAT PAIN CHART WE ALL KNOW WITH THE FACES AND 1 THROUGH 10. IN A SUBSIDIARY OF PURDUE PHARMA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING THAT PAIN CHART TO START THE CONVERSATION, RIGHT? AND TO MAKE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT PAIN. WELL, PAIN IS OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING THAT NONE OF US LIKES TO DEAL WITH BUT THE PRIMARY CONVERSATION SHOULD BE ABOUT THE ILLNESS OR WHAT THE PROBLEM IS AND WAYS OF GOING ABOUT TO FIX IT. AND DEALING WITH PAIN IS A DISCUSSION THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE BUT NOT THE FIRST ONE. >> I'VE BEEN LIVING WITH PAIN FOR SO LONG, BUT ALMOST OVERNIGHT, I GOT MY LIFE BACK. >> EXHIBIT 1A THAT GOT MY LIFE BACK PROMOTIONAL VIDEO, PURDUE MANIPULATED BASIC FACTS OF THE DRUG, CLAIMING IT'S ESSENTIALLY NON-ADDICTIVE WHEN IT CLEARLY WAS AND THE PARTICIPANTS INVOLVED WERE DECEIVED INTO PARTICIPATING BEING TOLD IT WAS A PSA FOR PAIN RELIEF INSTEAD OF AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR OXYCONTIN. MANY NOW ADDICTED OR DEAD FROM DRUG USE. REQUESTED ALL RESEARCH AND TESTING DATA TO DETERMINE IF THERE'S OTHER DECEPTIONS AS FLAGRANT AS THE EXHIBIT BEFORE THE COURT. >> YOUR HONOR, STATEMENTS MADE BY COUNSEL IN NO WAY RESEMBLE THE FACTS. MY CLIENT IS AWARE THERE HAVE BEEN ADDICTION ISSUES IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD. BUT BLAMING PURDUE PHARMA FOR THIS IS LIKE BLAMING BUDWEISER FOR A DRUNK DRIVER. IT IS THE FAULT OF THE DRUG ABUSER AND NOT OF THE MANUFACTURER. THE SCOPE OF THE SUBPOENA IS OVERLY BROAD AND THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THEIR REQUEST IS PRIVILEGED. >> YOUR HONOR, IF THERE IS NO LIABILITY -- >> WHAT THESE LOCAL LAWYERS DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THERE IS A NATIONAL PAIN MOVEMENT THAT IS FAR BIGGER THAN MY CLIENT AND ITS DRUGS. RENOWNED PAIN ORGANIZATIONS HAVE NOT ONLY ENDORSED MY CLIENTS MEDICATION BUT THE GENERAL USE OF INCREASED OPIOID TREATMENT, MY CLIENT SHOULD BE GIVEN A NOBEL PRIZE BUT NOT A SUBPOENA FOR MATERIALS. >> WHAT'S INTERESTING IN THIS CLIP AND SO MANY OTHERS IS HOW COMPLETELY OUTGUNNED THE GOVERNMENT RESOURCES ARE IN THIS SITUATION. YOU LITERALLY SEE ALMOST A FAY LYNX OF LAWYERS LINED UP. >> THERE'S THE PURDUE PHARMA AND THE FACT, THE AMOUNT OF LOBBYING THEY'D DONE IN WASHINGTON, DC. ESSENTIALLY THEY'VE GOT LAWMAKERS BEHIND THEM, YOU KNOW. IT IS A DAVID AND GOLIATH STORY AND, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T ACTUALLY TALK UNTIL AFTER WE DID THE FILM. BUT IT REALLY IS INCREDIBLE WHAT THEY DID AND INCREDIBLE THEY BELIEVED THEY COULD DO IT. I MEAN, IT'S REALLY SPECTACULAR STORY. IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DREW ME TO IT. I RARELY GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO PLAY SOMEONE THAT I'M SO ENTHRALLED OF. >> IT WAS AUDACIOUS, EVEN THE ATTEMPT. GIVEN THE RECORDS OFFENDING OFF PRIOR ATTEMPTS. >> 60 SUITS PRIOR, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YEAH. >> ALSO, A BIT REVELATORY IN WATCHING THIS SHOW IS THE CRITICAL EYE PLACED ON THE FDA AND ON THE ONE HAND YOU CAN SAY HOW UNDERRESOURCED THEY ARE. AND ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU ALSO LOOK AT THE SYSTEM STRUCTURALLY. IT SEEMS ALIGN SOD THAT THE VERY COMPANIES THAT THEY ARE REGULATING HAVE DIFFERENT HANDS IN CREATING THE RULES THAT ARE REGULATING THEM. >> I COMPLETELY AGREE. AND I WANT TO ECHO SOMETHING THAT YOU JUST INTIMATED. I BELIEVE THAT THE FDA IS MADE UP OF GOOD, WELL INTENTIONED PRINCIPLED INDIVIDUALS BUT THEN WHEN YOU GET AN ORGANISM THAT CAN BE THIS UNGANGLY, IT IS POSSIBLE FOR IT TO BE MISUSED. AND WE AS INDIVIDUALS, I MEAN, IT HARKENS BACK TO THE LOBBYING PARADIGM WE HAVE IN CONGRESS. YOU CAN COME IN, MAKE A LOT OF FRIENDS, A LOT OF CONNECTIONS. YOU CAN SEVEN ONE TERM AND STILL REALLY MAKE A REALLY GOOD INCOME FOR YOURSELF THE REST OF YOUR WORKING DAYS. THE SAME CAN BE TRUE OF THE FDA. IF YOU KNOW HOW THE LEGAL PROCESS WORKS, YOU CAN SHEPHERD COMPANIES THAT JUST WANT TO BRING DRUGS TO MARKET THROUGH THAT PROCESS. >> AND THAT HAPPENED WITH PURDUE. >> YES, AND IN FACT, IT WAS EVEN PERHAPS A LITTLE MORE QUESTIONABLE THAN THAT. IF IT HAPPENED THE WAY IT LOOKS LIKE IT HAPPENED, AN FDA PERSON WHO WORKED AT THE FDA WITH PEOPLE FROM PURDUE AND I DON'T WANT TO GIVE AWAY TOO MUCH IN THE STORY FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN IT BUT THERE IS A LOT OF KIND OF BACK ROOM DEALING THAT CAN HAPPEN. >> I WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT ANOTHER CLIP HERE BECAUSE THE REAL TRAGEDY IS THE RIPPLE EFFECTS THAT IT HAS ON ANY COMMUNITY THAT IS IMPACTED BY THIS. >> GOING AFTER A PUBLICLY TRADED COMPANY IS A STEEP HILL TO CLIMB. >> THEY'RE NOT PUBLICLY TRADED. THEY'RE PRIVATELY OWNED BY THE SACKLERS. >> THE SACKLERS. BIG PHILANTHROPISTS, RIGHT? >> THEY GIVE MONEY TO A LOT OF MUSEUMS AND SCHOOLS. RICH PERSON STUFF. >> VERY RICH. >> WHAT DO YOU GUYS GOT NO OTHER U.S. ATTORNEY IN THE COUNTRY IS ON TO? >> WELL, ABOUT FOUR MONTHS AGO, I WAS REVIEWING OUR CASE LOAD WHEN I NOTICED AN UNUSUAL PATTERN, ALMOST EVERY CASE OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, WAS RELATED TO OXYCONTIN, NEARLY EVERY ONE. LEGAL DRUG SALES, ARMED ROBBERY. >> IT HAS TRANSFORMED THE ENTIRE DISTRICT. JAILS SUDDENLY FULL, VIOLENT CRIME RUNNING RAMPANT. THE LAST 200 YEARS, FOLKS AROUND HERE DIDN'T EVEN LOCK THEIR DOORS. DIDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT. NOW STARTING THREE YEARS AGO -- >> EVERYONE LOCKS THEIR DOORS. >> SINGLE HIGHEST SOURCE OF CRIME IN THE ENTIRE REGION. >> YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE STATISTICS OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE OF THE OVERDOSES, HALF A MILLION PEOPLE HAVE DIED AND IN ANY OTHER REALITY, THAT NUMBER YOU WOULD THINK WOULD MOVE US TOWARD ACTION. HAVE YOU BEEN FOLLOWING WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN THE CASE AND WHAT'S, HOW THIS HAS BEEN PROGRESSING? >> EYE, THERE HAS BEEN SOME PROGRESS IN THE CASE WITH PURDUE. THERE'S A SETTLEMENT FOR, JOHN, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, $4.5 BILLION. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. >> THAT'S RIGHT. EIGHT OR NINE YEARS. >> I HAVE SOMEONE VERY CLOSE TO ME WHO BECAME ADDICTED. AND SO I DID THIS DOCUMENTARY IN 2016 WHERE I WENT TO DAYTON, OHIO, AND SHONDA RHIMES PRODUCED IT. AND I JUST HAD, LIKE, A REAL NEED TO TELL THE TRUTH STORY. THE RIPPLE EFFECT OF DEATH AND POVERTY AND SADNESS CAUSED BY THIS DRUG IS ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE. I SAW A JAIL CELL FILLED BECAUSE IN DAYTON, THEY HAD THIS POLICY OF TAKING SOMEONE, YOU KNOW, IN POSSESSION AND PUTTING THEM IN A JAIL CELL, I BELIEVE, FOR 30 DAYS. KIND OF ENOUGH TIME FOR THEM TO BARELY DRY OUT AND THEN I SAW A JAIL CELL FOR YOUNG WOMEN AND IT WAS FILLED WITH PROBABLY ON A RANDOM DAY ABOUT 70 YOUNG GIRLS. AND THAT IS THE THING THAT I REALLY WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY IS, YEAH, THIS IS ABOUT THE SACKLERS, THIS IS ABOUT LOBBYISTS AND GOVERNMENT AND, BUT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL AND THE FAMILIES AND THE CHILDREN THAT HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THIS DRUG. NOT JUST THE DEATHS. >> WHAT DO YOU BOTH THINK IT WILL TAKE FOR AMERICA TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS? WE'VE HAD THIS SLOW ROLLING TRAGEDY FOR A FEW YEARS NOW AND THERE'S BOOKS ABOUT THIS, DOCUMENTARIES, THERE'S THIS SERIES YOU'RE BOTH PART OF. WHAT DO YOU THINK KEEPS AMERICANS FROM PAYING THE NECESSARY AMOUNT OF ATTENTION? WHERE IT'S HAPPENING, WHO IT'S HAPPENING TO? >> BEEN TALKING TO MY SON WHO'S 12 YEARS OLD ABOUT HOW THIS DRUG AND OPIOIDS IN GENERAL CAN REWIRE THE BRAIN. THERE'S A CHARACTER IN THE SHOW WHO FALLS PREY TO ADDICTION AND THEN LOOKS LIKE SHE'S GETTING CLEAN AND OTHER THINGS HAPPEN AND HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND HOW, AFTER SHE'S GOTTEN CLEAN, IT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN. AND I THINK THAT WHAT WE'RE REALLY, REALLY GOING FOR IS TO PUT A LITTLE BIT MORE EMPATHY INTO THE CONVERSATION AROUND ADDICTION THAT PEOPLE DEAL WITH IN THIS COUNTRY. WE HAVE TO START TO SEE PEOPLE WHO ARE DEALING WITH ADDICTION IN A MORE EMPATHETIC WAY. THE GREATER CONVERSATION ABOUT PAIN BEING PART OF THE HEALING PROCESS, THAT'S A REALLY HUGE MOUNTAIN TO CLIMB AND I HAVE NO IDEA HOW WE GET THERE BUT I THINK THAT'S PART OF IT TOO. >> I WONDER, ALSO, YOU HAD MENTIONED HOW THIS PERSONALLY AFFECTED YOU, AND I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER THAT GUIDED HOW YOU PLAYED THIS CHARACTER OR HOW YOU DEDICATED YOURSELF TO THIS ROLE. >> IT'S THE REASON I AM INTERESTED IN TELLING IT. THE TURMOIL THAT IT CAUSES WITHIN A FAMILY, AND I AM COMING FROM A FAMILY WHERE MYSELF, AND A FEW OTHERS OF US HAVE THE MEANS TO HELP SOMEONE THROUGH THIS BECAUSE IF YOU WANT TO TRY TO GET THROUGH IT, IT'S A VERY EXPENSIVE PROPOSITION AND YOUR INSURANCE ISN'T REALLY GOING TO COVER IT IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE. SO THAT PERSONAL CONNECTION TO IT IS THE DRIVE FOR ME. IT MAKES IT POSSIBLE TO PLAY A CHARACTER, WHO IN EVERY SCENE, I AM SINGLE MINDED ABOUT MY PURPOSE. TO THE DETRIMENT OF PROBABLY MY OWN FAMILY AT CERTAIN POINTS BUT THIS IS A MAN ON A MISSION, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE LOTS OF CAUSES, THERE'S LOTS OF THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT AND TALK ABOUT IN THIS WORLD BUT THIS ONE IS SO, TO ME, IT IS SO PREVENTABLE. JUST BECAUSE IF THE GOVERNMENT GOT ON THE SIDE OF THE INDIVIDUAL INSTEAD OF THE CORPORATION, INSTEAD OF THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY AND PASS THE SACKLER ACT, THEN WHEN THEY ACTUALLY PUT INDIVIDUALS, EXECUTIVES IN JAIL, INSTEAD OF JUST FINING THEM. THESE ARE JUST PARKING TICKETS. THEY SOUND LIKE BIG NUMBERS, BUT THEY'RE JUST PARKING TICKETS. THAT, I THINK, WILL START TO PUT A DENT INTO IT. IT'S A MATTER OF THE GOVERNMENT PROTECTING US. >> JOHN, I WONDER, THIS IS A LITTLE SPOILER ALERT FOR THE AUDIENCE. BUT WHEN YOU FIGURED OUT THAT THE PERSON AT THE FDA WHO HELPED WRITE THE RULES FOR HOW OXYCONTIN COULD BE DISTRIBUTED WENT TO WORK FOR PURDUE PHARMA AFTERWARD, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND? >> WE HAVE TO, AS BEST AS WE CAN, WE HAVE TO KEEP STORIES LIKE THIS ALIVE. NOT JUST INSTANCES LIKE THE ONE YOU MENTIONED, BUT STORIES LIKE HOW THE OPIOID CRISIS CAME TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY. WE HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO US AND WE HAVE TO PUSH LAWMAKERS TO PASS THINGS LIKE THE SACKLER ACT. I LOOKED IT UP THIS MORNING AND BOUNCING AROUND IN SUBCOMMITTEES, IN THE ANTI-TRUST COMMERCIAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE LOSS COMMITTEE. THEY'RE JUST PASSING IT AROUND. I THINK IT LOOKS GOOD, BUT I DON'T KNOW. WHY DON'T YOU HAVE A LOOK AT IT? I THINK IT LOOKS GOOD, BUT I DON'T KNOW. AND THEN ANOTHER ELECTION HAPPENS. THE COUNTRY MOVES IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION AND MAYBE NOTHING HAPPENS. AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES ON AND ON AND ON. BUT WE CANNOT BECOME COMPLACENT. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WHEN WE'RE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE, THAT WE GET OUT AND MAKE IT HAPPEN. >> THE SERIES IS ON HULU. IT'S CALLED "DOPE SICK." PETER, JOHN, THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US. >> THANKS FOR HAVING US. >> THANK YOU.