Amanpour and Company

>> NOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, THE SUPREME COURT HAS REVIVED A KEY BIDEN IMMIGRATION POLICY.

THEY PRIORITIZE WHICH UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS TO REPORT.

JOURNALIST DEXTER FILKENS HAS MORE IN HIS RECENT ART KWL, "BIDEN'S DILEMMA AT THE BORDER."

AND HE'S JOINING WALTER TO DISCUSS MORE.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

DEXTER, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

>> YOU'VE COVERED IRAQAFGHANISTAN, AND NOW FOR "THE NEW YORKER" YOU'VE WRITTEN THIS VERY DETAILED, NUANCED PIECE ABOUT THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE UNITED STATES WITH MEXICO.

WHAT DREW YOU THERE?

>> WELL, I WAS JUST -- I WAS STRUCK BY -- I WAS STRUCK BY THE CHAOS, REALLY, AND ALSO -- AND ALSO THE LEVEL OF DISAGREEMENT IN THE COUNTRY ABOUT WHAT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

SO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU READ "THE NEW YORK TIMES" IN THE MORNING, THAT GIVES YOU ONE PICTURE, AND THEN, BUT THEN, IF YOU GO TO TUCKER CARLSON, YOU KNOW, FORMALLY OF FOX, HE WAS ON EVERY NIGHT WITH A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PICTURE.

AND I WAS SORT OF STRUCK BY THAT, AND -- SO I WENT INTO THAT STORY WITH A PRETTY SIMPLE QUESTION, WHICH WAS JUST, HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GETTING IN AND HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GETTING SET BACK OUT?

>> BUT YOU CAME UP WITH AN ANSWER THAT IT HAS TRULY TRANSFORMED TOWNS AND PLACES ALONG THIS 2,000-MILE BORDER.

IT WAS VERY RICH IN DETAIL IN THAT.

WERE YOU SURPRISED?

BECAUSE I'M DOWN HERE IN LOUISIANA, WE KIND OF KNOW, BUT MOST PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TRANSFORMING THIS IS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, IT'S -- IT'S BEGUN TO TOUCH THE CITIES IN THE NORTHEAST, BUT GOSH, IF YOU -- IF YOU LIVE IN TEXAS DOWN ON THE BORDER, IT IS TRANSFORMATIVE, I MEAN, THAT'S THE WORD.

AND SO, YOU HAVE -- YOU HAVE TOWNS LIKE DEL RIO, WHERE LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE MOVED THROUGH THERE IN THE PAST TWO YEARS.

LIKE, I THINK IN DEL RIO, A CITY OF ABOUT 40,000 PEOPLE, THEY'VE HAD ABOUT 80,000 PEOPLE COME THROUGH THEIR TOWN.

IF YOU CAN IMAGINE YOUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD, LEGIONS OF PEOPLE COMING THROUGH, AND THEY DON'T STAY, TYPICALLY, THEY MOVE ON OUT, BUT IT'S JUST THIS KIND OF CONSTANT STREAM OF PEOPLE.

>> SPEAKING OF DE RIO, YOU TALKED TO THE MAYOR, NOW THE FORMER MAYOR THERE, AND IT WAS JUST A VERY SURPRISING CONVERSATION.

HE GETS PHONE CALLS.

TELL US ABOUT, YOU KNOW, GIVE US A NARRATIVE, BECAUSE YOUR PIECE IS VERY MUCH A NARRATIVE PIECE.

>> WELL, SO, THE MAYOR, THE FORMER MAYOR OF DEL RIO IS A DEMOCRAT, HE'S GAY, HE'S A FLIGHT ATTENDANT FOR DELTA, ACTUALLY, I MEAN, BEING THE MAYOR THERE IS SUPPOSED TO BE A PART-TIME JOB, AND HE SAID, THIS IS JUST A COUPLE YEARS AGO, 2021, HE GOT A PHONE CALL FROM THE BORDER PATROL AND THEY SAID, HELLO, WE THINK IN THE NEXT, YOU KNOW, BY FRIDAY, IN THE NEXT FOUR, FIVE DAYS, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE ABOUT 10,000 PEOPLE MOVING INTO YOUR CITY.

AND, YOU KNOW, HE SAID, I JUST FELL OUT OF MY CHAIR.

HE SAID, HOLD ON A MINUTE, 10,000 PEOPLE?

AND IT TURNED OUT IT WAS 16,000 PEOPLE MOVED INTO DEL RIO, IN THE COURSE OF ABOUT A WEEK.

AND SO, THEY TRIED TO -- THE BORDER PATROL, WHICH ONLY HAD FOUR, FIVE AGENTS THERE, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO TRY TO PICTURE THAT, THESE PEOPLE ARE JUST MOVING ACROSS THE BORDER, THERE WAS SOME RUMOR, AND THAT'S HOW THESE THINGS HAPPEN, THERE WAS A RUMOR THAT WENT AROUND THAT THE -- YOU'RE GOING TO BE LET IN, AND SO, PEOPLE JUST CAME.

16,000 PEOPLE, MOST OF THEM FROM HAITI, WHO HAD BEEN LIVING IN SOUTH AMERICA FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, BUT THEY CAMPED UNDER A BRIDGE.

AND SO, SUDDENLY, OVERNIGHT, THERE'S A CITY OF 16,000 PEOPLE UNDER A BRIDGE.

THERE WERE BABIES BEING BORN, THEY HAD TO FIND WAYS TO FEED THEM, AND SO, THE MAYOR, THE MAYOR JUST BASICALLY HAD A BREAKDOWN.

HE SAID, WHAT -- WHAT AM I TO DO AS THE MAYOR?

MY CITY IS NOW UNGOVERNABLE.

>> I WAS IN EL PASO AND BROWNSVILLE IN THE PAST MONTH OR SO, AND IT WAS SOMEWHAT STUNNING TO JUST SEE THE BORDER.

AND THEN, YOU GOT THE FEEL THAT THE POLITICS, AS YOU JUST SAID, IS CHANGING.

IT WAS ALMOST LIKE THE AIR IS CHANGING IN A POLITICAL SENSE.

WHAT DID YOU SEE ABOUT THE CHANGING POLITICS?

>> WELL, I -- THE -- I SPENT A COUPLE OF DAYS WITH ONE OF THE CONGRESSMEN FROM THE AREA NAMED TONY GONZALEZ, HE'S ACTUALLY A MODERATE REPUBLICAN IN THE DISTRICT -- HE'S GOT A COUPLE HUNDRED MILES ON THE BORDER, SO, HE DEALS WITH THIS PROBLEM ALL THE TIME, IT'S VERY REAL FOR HIM.

BUT HE'S ACTUALLY A MODERATE REPUBLICAN, AND HE DOES NOT SUPPORT THE MORE DRACONIAN MEASURES THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SUPPORTS, BUT HE'S IN VERY MUCH THE SAME WAY, HE FEELS LIKE -- WHEN I WENT AROUND TO HIM, FOR INSTANCE, WE SAT DOWN WITH A COUPLE OF RANCHERS, AND THERE'S JUST BIG SPRAWLING RANCHES IN SOUTH TEXAS AND WEST TEXAS, MIGRANTS ARE MOVING THROUGH, THEY'RE CUTTING THE FENCES, THEIR LIVESTOCK ARE GETTING FREE, THEY'RE TRAMPLING, THEY FIND BACKPACKS WITH FENTANYL IN THEM.

THESE PEOPLE ARE ANGRY AT HIM, AND THEY SAID, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

YOU KNOW, WHAT -- WE NEED RESULTS.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT CAN YOU SAYING A A CONGRESSMAN EXCEPT, AH, YOU KNOW, WE'RE WORKING ON IT.

BUT HE COULD BARELY SAY THAT, YOU KNOW?

AND HE'S A REPUBLICAN, AND, YOU KNOW, THE ADMINISTRATION IS DEMOCRATIC, SO, HE CAN, YOU KNOW, HE CAN BARELY GET IN THE FRONT DOOR.

SO, IT'S BASICALLY PARALYZED -- IT'S BASICALLY PARALYZED THE LOCAL POLITICIANS.

>> BUT YOU'VE GOT CONGRESSMAN GONZALEZ, MODERATE REPUBLICAN, IT USED TO BE IN 2010, 2012, THERE WAS HOPE OF BIPARTISANSHIP.

CAN GONZALEZ FIND ANY BIPARTISAN THINGS HE CAN DO OR WOULD HE JUST BE SHUNNED BY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IF HE TRIED?

>> I THINK THAT'S THE TRAGEDY HERE, IS THAT YOU CAN SORT OF IMAGINE A COMPROMISE, IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT, BASICALLY, THE REPUBLICANS WANT BETTER BORDER SECURITY, YOU KNOW, THEY WANT MORE WALLS, MORE BORDER GUARDS, AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WANTS KIND OF MORE LEGAL PATHWAYS FOR PEOPLE TO COME, KIND OF MAKE IT AN ORDERLY PROCESS.

SOME OF THE MOST INTERESTING CONVERSATIONS I HAD WERE WITH PEOPLE WHO SAID THAT WHAT HAPPENED WAS, I MEAN, FIRST, THE -- THAT BILL IN 2013 THAT CAME VERY CLOSE TO PASSING, IT PASSED THE SENATE, DIED IN THE HOUSE, BASICALLY KILLED BY THE TEA PARTY, THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS CHANGING, ESSENTIALLY, AND THEN WHEN TRUMP CAME IN, INSTEAD OF KIND OF, YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE FIND THE RIGHT LANGUAGE FOR THIS BILL, IT BECAME SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT, WHICH WAS, WE CAN'T LET ANY IMMIGRANTS IN.

THIS ISN'T JUST A PROBLEM, THESE ARE BAD PEOPLE.

AND IT COMPLETELY CHANGED THE COMPLEXION -- >> WAS THAT BECAUSE OF TRUMP'S RHETORIC, WHICH WAS REALLY INFLAMMATORY, RACIST IN A WAY, ABOUT MEXICAN AMERICANS AND RAPISTS?

>> YES.

AND, YOU KNOW, I HAD AN INTERESTING CONVERSATION, SHE'S ACTUALLY NOT QUOTED IN THE PIECE, BUT VERY INTERESTING WOMAN, LINDA CHAVEZ, WHO WORKED FOR THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION, AND SHE TOLD ME THAT SHE OFTEN GOES AROUND THE COUNTRY AND GIVES A SPEECH IN WHICH SHE SAYS, WE NEED IMMIGRANTS FOR THE ECONOMY.

SHE SAID, FORGET ABOUT THE HUMANITARIAN ARGUMENT, THIS IS ABOUT SELF-INTEREST, WE NEED THEM.

AND SHE SAID, I GIVE THAT SPEECH EVERYWHERE, AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE -- THE CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, PEOPLE ARE APPLAUDING AT THE END OF IT.

2015, WHEN TRUMP BECAME A CANDIDATE, THE RECEPTION THAT SHE GOT TO THAT SAME SPEECH JUST CHANGED.

SHE SAID, I HAD TO RUN OUT OF THE ROOM IN SOME OF THESE PLACES.

PEOPLE'S VIEWS OF IMMIGRANTS, PARTICULARLY AMONG REPUBLICANS, BEGAN TO CHANGE VERY DRASTICALLY.

AND SO, I THINK THAT'S CONTRIBUTED TO IT.

>> WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT BIDEN FOR A SECOND.

YOU CALLED -- YOUR PIECE IS TITLED "BIDEN'S DILEMMA AT THE BORDER."

WHY IS IT A DILEMMA?

WHAT IS THE DILEMMA?

>> I THINK THERE'S A DILEMMA FOR HIM IN THE PARTY.

AND I THINK -- I TRIED TO DESCRIBE THIS IN THE PIECE, THE -- DURING THE CAMPAIGN, BIDEN GAVE A NUMBER OF SPEECHES IN WHICH HE SAID, WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DOING ON THE BORDER IS INHUMANE.

YOU KNOW, HE'S ENACTED THESE DRACONIAN PROGRAMS AND GIVING AMERICA A BAD NAME AROUND THE WORLD.

AND WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THOSE PROGRAMS, WE'RE GOING TO TEAR THEM DOWN.

AND THEY DID.

THEY WENT INTO OFFICE AND THEY TOOK DOWN ALL OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PROGRAMS.

REMAIN IN MEXICO, THE TRANSIT BAN, THESE THINGS THAT WERE SET UP TO TRY TO CONTROL THE ENORMOUS FLOW OF PEOPLE, THE DAILY FLOW THAT WAS COMING IN.

AND WHAT'S HAPPENED, AND I THINK THAT BIDEN WAS LED TO THAT POINT BY THE LEFT WING OF HIS PARTY -- >> AND YOU SAID THAT HE INVITED A LOT OF THOSE PROGRESSIVES ON IMMIGRATION TO BE HIS POLICY TEAM INITIALLY, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

>> HAS THERE BEEN SOME CHANGE?

>> YES.

AND THAT'S WHAT -- SO INTERESTING TO TRACK OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

SO, BASICALLY, WHAT HAPPENS IS, BIDEN COMES IN, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY WITH THE LEFT WING OF HIS PARTY, THEY TAKE DOWN ALL OF TRUMP'S PROGRAMS, AND WHAT HAPPENED?

WE GET THIS INCREDIBLE SURGE OF PEOPLE, SO THAT OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS, DEPENDING ON HOW YOU COUNT, IT'S A LITTLE DIFFICULT, ABOUT 4 MILLION PEOPLE HAVE COME ACROSS THE BORDER AND INTO THE UNITED STATES.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THAT'S BIGGER THAN A LOT OF STATES.

AND THIS IS NOT SUSTAINABLE, IT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE ECONOMICALLY, POLITICALLY, ANYTHING, IT'S TOO MUCH.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S 70,000 MIGRANTS IN NEW YORK CITY LIVING IN HOTELS.

IT'S COST A BILLION DOLLARS ALREADY.

AND I THINK BIDEN CAME TO THAT REALIZATION.

AND SO, WHAT'S HAPPENED IS, YOU'RE WATCHING OVER JUST THE LAST SIX MONTHS, THE POLICIES CHANGE.

AND WHAT'S REALLY REMARKABLE TO ME, AND I SAY THIS WITHOUT IRONY, WHAT'S HAPPENING, BASICALLY, IS THAT BIDEN -- THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS ERECTING POLICIES WHICH LOOK REMARKABLY LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S, AND SO, THEY'RE KIND OF -- >> REALLY?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

IS HE GOING TO BUILD A WALL?

>> WELL, NOT -- HE HASN'T GONE THERE YET, ALTHOUGH, YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE IRONY HERE IS THAT THERE'S SO MUCH WALL ON THE BORDER, BUILT BY PRESIDENT OBAMA, BUILT BY PRESIDENT BUSH, YOU KNOW, AND THEN, AGAIN, SORT OF TRUMP COMES IN AND EVERYTHING BECOMES VERY POLARIZED.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING ON THE WALL, TOO, BECAUSE WHEN I READ YOUR PIECE, ONE LITTLE THING THAT STRUCK ME IS THAT THERE'S A LOT OF WALL AND IT ACTUALLY WORKED.

IT STOPS THE PEOPLE THERE, AND YET, IT SEEMS SO DIFFICULT FOR MANY AMERICANS.

GIVE ME YOUR TAKE THERE.

>> IT'S REALLY TRUE.

THE -- THE WALL -- THERE'S SO MUCH WALL, AND, IN FACT, I WENT TO A PRESS CONFERENCE OF CONGRESSMAN GONZALEZ AND HE WAS TALKING ABOUT IT.

AS I WAS LEAVING THE PRESS CONFERENCE, I WATCHED SIX PEOPLE COME OVER THE WALL.

THEY CLIMBED RIGHT OVER.

IT WAS DIFFICULT TO CLIMB OVER THE WALL, BUT IT SLOWS THEM DOWN, KIND OF CHANNELS THEM.

IT WORKED.

I THINK IT -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF THAT BORDER, HUNDREDS OF MILES THAT ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, AND, YOU KNOW, IT WOULDN'T MAKE A LOT OF SENSE TO PUT A WALL THERE, BUT WHAT'S REMARKABLE IS, AGAIN, LIKE, OBAMA BUILT A LOT OF WALL, GEORGE W. BUSH BUILT A WALL.

THERE WAS A CONSENSUS ABOUT THIS.

IT WAS A CONSENSUS THAT WE CAN'T CONTROL THE BORDER ANYMORE.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THE POLITICS OF TODAY WHERE ALL THAT'S BLOWN UP AND THERE'S NO CONSENSUS ON ANY OF THIS.

>> YOU QUOTE A BORDER AGENT SAYING WHAT I THINK A LOT OF AMERICANS OF ALL POLITICAL STRIPES, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS FEEL, WHICH IS, THE BORDER IS WIDE OPEN.

YOU TALK ABOUT 4 MILLION PEOPLE COMING IN, BUT THAT ALSO SEEMS WRONG.

IS IT WIDE OPEN?

>> IT'S NOT WIDE OPEN.

THAT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT THE WAY TO PUT IT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE COMING IN, BUT WHAT -- IT'S ALMOST -- IT REALLY IS A KIND OF PERFECT -- IT'S A PERFECTLY UNSOLVABLE PROBLEM.

I MEAN, CONGRESS COULD SOLVE THIS, BUT AS IT IS, IT'S A KIND OF VERY JERRY RIGGED SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T WORK.

OF THE 4 MILLION PEOPLE THAT HAVE COME IN, 2.5 MILLION OF THEM, MOST OF THEM, HAVE COME IN, AND THE WAY THE LAW IS WRITTEN AND HAS BEEN WRITTEN FOR DECADES, YOU CAN GET YOUR FOOT ON AMERICAN SOIL AND YOU CAN ASK FOR ASYLUM, SO, ITS NOT LEGAL TO CROSS THE BORDER, BUT IF YOU ARE IN AMERICA AND YOU SAY, I WILL BE PERSECUTED IF I GO BACK TO VENEZUELA, I WILL BE PERSECUTED IF YOU SEND ME BACBACK, IT IS THE LEGAL OBLIGATION OF THE UNITED STATES TO NOT -- NOT TO SEND THOSE PEOPLE BACK.

THAT'S THE BIGGEST LOOPHOLE THAT EXISTS IN AMERICAN IMMIGRATION LAW.

>> WAIT, YOU'RE CALLING IT A LOOPHOLE, BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ASYLUM.

AND ASYLUM IS SOMETHING, ESPECIALLY AFTER WORLD WAR II, WE SAID, OKAY, THIS DEFINES US AS AMERICA.

WE GIVE ASYLUM TO THE OPPRESSED.

HOW DID THAT BECOME, WHAT YOU JUST CALLED A LOOPHOLE?

>> AND THAT'S THE TRAGEDY HERE, BECAUSE I JUST CALLED IT A LOOPHOLE, AND IN FACT, IT IS THE -- IT IS THE -- WE ARE A HAVEN OF LAST RESORT FOR PEOPLE AROUND THE GLOBE.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A -- YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL PROUD OF THAT.

I MEAN, THAT'S A GREAT AMERICAN THING.

WE AS AMERICANS SHOULD BE PROUD OF THAT, BUT IT'S BECOME, ESSENTIALLY -- IT'S BASICALLY OUT OF CONTROL, I THINK IS THE -- I THINK BOTH SIDES WOULD AGREE.

>> WELL, GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF IT BEING OUT OF CONTROL.

THERE ARE A COUPLE IN YOUR PIECE.

THERE'S ONE PERSON, LET ME SAY, BECAUSE OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION, HAS TROUBLE GETTING A JOB, AND PROBLEMS WITH THE FAMILY, AND SO, WANTS ASYLUM IN THE U.S.

I COULD FEEL BOTH SIDES OF THAT ONE.

EXPLAIN HOW YOU THINK THAT THROUGH.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND -- SO, YOU COME ACROSS THE BORDER, YOU GET A VERY BRIEF INTERVIEW.

JUST, LIKE, A MINUTE AND A HALF, TO ESTABLISH, DOES THIS PERSON HAVE A CREDIBLE FEAR OF PERSECUTION IF HE OR SHE RETURNS HOME?

AND IF YOU MAKE IT OVER THAT BAR, THAT'S A PRETTY LOW BAR, YOU'RE IN.

YOU ARE IN AMERICA FOR AT LEAST FOUR, FIVE YEARS, AND POSSIBLY A DECADE, YOU CAN STRING YOUR CASE OUT.

THAT'S A DECADE TO WORK, YOU CAN SEND MONEY HOME, YOU KNOW, WITH LUCK, YOU'LL GET IN.

AND SO, THAT'S THE PROBLEM, IS THAT I THINK THERE'S A GROWING SENSE THAT THE ASYLUM SYSTEM, AS WELL-INTENTIONED AS IT IS, AS NOBLE A SYSTEM AS IT IS, IS BEING GAMED, AT LEAST -- >> HOW WOULD YOU FIX IT?

>> WELL, I THINK THE WAY TO FIX IT IS TO, LIKE, HIRE A LOT MORE IMMIGRATION JUDGES.

AND PUT THEM DOWN ON THE BORDER SO THAT NOW, WHEN YOU COME IN, YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOUR, FIVE YEARS TO GET YOUR CASE FIGURED OUT, SO, THE WHOLE THING FALLS APAURT.

WHERE ARE YOU?

THIS PERSON, IS HE IN DENVER, IS HE IN DETROIT, NEW YORK?

NOBODY KNOWS.

SO, WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS, LIKE, AND ANYONE WOULD TELL YOU THIS, HAVE A BUNCH OF JUDGES ON THE BORDER WHO CAN -- WHO CAN GO THROUGH THESE CASES, IF NOT IMMEDIATELY, THEN VERY QUICKLY, BASICALLY.

AND DETERMINE WHO IS TELLING THE TRUTH AND WHO IS NOT.

AND THAT -- THAT'S -- THAT WOULD BE VERY EXPENSIVE, AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

IT COMES BACK TO CONGRESS.

>> YOU SAY IN YOUR PIECE, MUCH OF THE MIGRATION OF THE UNITED STATES IN RECENT YEARS HAS BEEN DRIVEN BY PROFOUND DEVELOPMENTS IN CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA, WHERE ECONOMIC TURMOIL, DRUG-RELATED MURDERS, NATURAL DISASTERS, HAVE BROUGHT MANY STATES TO THE BRINK OF COLLAPSE.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS IT OUT OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S CONTROL, AND WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, THAT'S LIKE A SUPER GOOD QUESTION.

IT'S -- AND THIS IS WHAT YOU SEE WHEN YOU GO TO THE BORDER.

THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE COMING, EVERY DAY, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE EVERY DAY, THEY'RE SO DESPERATE.

THEY'RE GENUINELY DESPERATE.

THEY ARE FLEEING COUNTRIES WHETHER IT'S VVENEZUELA, CUBA, HAITI, NICARAGUA, THEY ARE IN A STATE OF COLLAPSE.

THEY ARE NOT SAFE.

THEY CAN'T SEND THEIR CHILDREN TO SCHOOL.

THEY ARE LOOKING FOR BETTER LIVES.

AND THE WAY TO LOOK AT IT IS SORT OF -- YEAH, THEY'RE SEEKING ASYLUM, BUT WHAT THEY REALLY -- WHAT MOST OF THEM REALLY WANT ARE BETTER LIVES.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE CONDITIONS ARE GENERATING THIS.

THEY'RE GENERATING THE MIGRATION.

AND SO, WHAT DO YOU DO?

HOW DO YOU FIX VENEZUELA?

IT'S BEEN IN A STATE OF COLLAPSE FOR YEARS.

IT'S ALREADY PRODUCED 7 MILLION REFUGEES, THEY'RE ALL OVER SOUTH AMERICA.

NICARAGUA, THE SAME, HAITI, THE SAME, CUBA, THE SAME.

WHAT CAN WE DO?

AND SO, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING.

THEY'RE TRYING TO SORT OF SET UP, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO GENERATE BUSINESS INVESTMENT, AND THEY'RE TRYING TO FIX THE ECONOMIES AND THE POLITICAL SYSTEMS OF SOUTH AND CENTRAL AMERICA, BUT I MEAN, THAT'S NOT A SHORT-TERM THING, YOU MEAN, THAT'S NOT -- THAT'S NOT A QUICK FASHION, LIKE, THAT'S GOING TO TAKE YEARS.

WE'VE, YOU KNOW, WE'VE TRIED THAT IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD AND, LIKE, IT'S HARD.

AND -- BUT THAT'S -- THAT'S THE THING, WHICH IS THAT THEY'RE COMING EVERY DAY, AND THEY'RE FLEEING THOSE COLLAPSING STATES.

>> DEXTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.