Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE EXTREMIST ISRAELI SETTLERS ACCUSED OF TERRORIZING PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

WE'LL HAVE A SPECIAL REPORT.

AND ISRAEL'S CLOSEST ALLIES VOICE CONCERNS ABOUT THE COUNTRY'S WARTIME CONDUCT.

MARK JOINS ME, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

>>> THEN A LOOK AHEAD AT 2024 HARI NEXT YEAR COULD BE A MAKE-OR-BREAK MOMENT FOR DEMOCRACY.

AND FINALLY THE OTHER UKRAINE WAR TO SAVE A PRICELESS PIECE OF JEWISH HERITAGE.

HISTORIAN JONATHAN BRENT JOINS ME.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS CASUALTIES CONTINUE TO MOUNT IN GAZA, ISRAEL'S ALLIES ARE ALSO CONTINUING TO MOUNT CRITICISM ABOUT SURGING SETTLER VIOLENCE AGAINST PALESTINIANS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

THE U.K., FRANCE, AND THE UNITED STATES ARE ALL CALLING ON IT TO END AND SLAPPING TRAVEL BANS AND SANCTIONS ON SOME EXTREMIST SETTLERS.

THIS COMES AS THE EUROPEAN UNION, BRITAIN, AND 13 OTHER COUNTRIES INCLUDING AUSTRALIA AND CANADA, RELEASE A JOINT STATEMENT SAYING, QUOTE, ISRAEL'S FAILURE TO PROTECT PALESTINIANS AND PROSECUTE EXTREMIST SETTLERS HAS LED TO AN ENVIRONMENT OF NEAR COMPLETE IMPUNITY IN WHICH SETTLER VIOLENCE HAS REACHED UNPRECEDENTED LEVELS.

AND ACCORDING TO THE UNITED NATIONS THIS YEAR HAS BEEN THE DEADLIEST ON RECORD SINCE 2005 FOR PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK.

477 HAVE BEEN KILLED WITH MORE THAN HALF HAPPENING AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

OUR CORRESPONDENT HAS THIS SPECIAL REPORT.

>> WE STOP AT A SERVICE STATION IN THE OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN WEST BANK.

A MAN IN MILITARY FATIGUES DEMANDS TO CHECK OUR I.D.s.

>> I HAVE A RIGHT TO SECURE THIS AREA.

>> HE HAS NO IDENTIFYING INSIGNIA, WON'T TELL US WHO HE IS, BUT HE'S GOT A GUN SO WE'RE OBLIGED.

AND WE'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES.

CNN OBTAINED THIS VIDEO FROM INSIDE, A DIVIDED CITY FILMED A FEW DAYS AFTER THE HAMAS OCTOBER 7 ATTACK.

A PALESTINIAN MAN WON'T COMPLY.

HE SAYS HE RECOGNIZES THE MAN WITH A GUN AS A SETTLER, NOT A SOLDIER.

IN THIS TENSE CLIMATE IF A SOLDIER ISSUES AN ORDER, YOU COMPLY.

BUT AS EVERYONE WITH A GUN AND FATIGUES A SOLDIER?

THE WEST BANK IS UNDER ISRAELI MILITARY OCCUPATION.

IT'S ALSO BELIEVED TO BE HOME TO ALMOST THREE QUARTERS OF A MILLION SETTLERS.

ISRAELI CIVILIANS LIVING IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

SETTLERS CONSIDER THIS PART OF THEIR BIBLICAL HOMELAND AND ARE EXPANDING INTO PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES EVENO THOUGH THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL CONSIDERS THEIR PRESENCE ILLEGAL.

YET SETTLERERIZE INTEGRAL TO ISRAEL'S SECURITY PLAN IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

AS ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCE RESERVISTS AND SETTLEMENT SECURITY SQUADS RESPONDING THE IDF SAYS TO SECURITY THREATS IN SETTLEMENTS, TOWNS, AND VILLAGES.

PALESTINIANS TOLD CNN THEY CONSIDER ARMED SETTLERS A GREATER THREAT THAN EVER BEFORE.

THEIR REMIT FROM THE IDF IS BLURRING THE LINES AS SETTLERINIZE KROECH ON PALESTINIAN LAND.

LIKE HERE IN THE PALESTINIAN VILLAGE OF ITAWANI WHERE THERE'S A SETTLEMENT AT THE TOP OF THE HILL.

IN THIS VIDEO YOU SEE MEN IN MILITARY FATIGUES.

THE IDF EQUIPS BOTH CIVILIAN SETTLER SECURITY SQUADS AND SOLDIERS IN THE REGION AS YOU CAN SEE HERE.

IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DIFFERENTIATE.

THEY POINT THEIR RIFLES AT RESIDENTS AND THEN THEY SHOOT, ACCORDING TO EYEWITNESSES.

CNN SHARED THE IMAGES WE GATHERED IN THE WASTE BANK WITH A SENIOR IDF OFFICIAL WHO WAS UNABLE TO TELL US WHO HERE IS IN THE IDF AND WHO IS NOT.

WE ASKED HOW THEN ARE PALESTINIANS EXPECTED TO DIFFERENTIATE.

THE OFFICIAL TOLD CNN THERE HAVE BEEN CASES OF RESERVISTS WHO DID NOT ACT IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARMY STANDARDS.

ADDING THERE IS NO PLACE IN THE IDF FOR SUCH BEHAVIOR.

EVERY CASE THAT BREACHES ARMY STANDARDS WILL BE INVESTIGATED.

PALESTINIANS, THE OFFICIALS SAID, SHOULD CONTACT THEIR LOCAL BRIGADE.

BUT PALESTINIAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST AND A LOCAL RESIDENT SAID SETTLERS IN MILITARY FATIGUES ARE FORCING PALESTINIANS OFF THEIR LAND.

>> THESE SETTLERS HAVE THEIR GUNS AND THEY'RE POINTING IT TO THE HEAD OF THE RESIDENTS.

AND THEY TELL THEM IF YOU DON'T LEAVE IN 24 HOURS WE WILL SHOT YOU.

SO THE FAMILY MUST UNDERSTAND, IT'S A SERIOUS THREAT OF KILLING IF THEY DON'T LEAVE THEIR HOME.

THAT LED FOR LIKE 35 FAMILIES TO LEAVE.

AND THESE SETTLERS HAVE BEEN WEARING UNIFORM ALSO.

>> SETTLERS HAVE HEAVYWEIGHT SUPPORT IN ISRAEL'S FAR-RIGHT GOVERNMENT.

THE MINISTER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY, SETTLER.

AFTER THE HAMAS OCTOBER 7 ATTACK HE LOOSENED GUN POWERMENT REGULATIONS MAKING IT EASIER FOR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ISRAELI CIVILIANS TO BEAR ARMS.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, SETTLER.

ALSO POST-ATTACK PUSHED THROUGH OVER 100 MILLION U.S.

DOLLARS FOR WEST BANK SECURITY INCLUDING FUNDS FOR TRAINING AND EQUIPPING SETTLER SECURITY SQUADS.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST ARMING AND EQUIPPING.

WE WITNESSED FIRST-HAND SOME OF THE RESTRICTIONS THE IDF IMPOSED ON PALESTINIANS.

THE HOUSE IS NOT EVEN 5 MINUTES AWAY FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS CHECKPOINT, BUT SHE CAN'T GET THROUGH.

EVERY DAY THEY TELL HER TO GO BACK, AND EVERY DAY SHE HAS TO DO THIS EXTRAORDINARILY LONG LOOP TO TRY AND GET IN.

THEY ARE INTENTIONALLY MAKING IT DIFFICULT FOR US, MAKING IT SO WE HAVE TO CROSS THROUGH AREAS THAT ARE HOSTILE TO US TO GET TO OUR HOMES.

SHE PICKS UP A FEW MORE THINGS BEFORE SHE SETS OFF HOME, BUT NOT TOO MANY.

IT'S A LONG WALK UPHILL.

SINCE THE 1990s THE CITY HAS SEEN MANY CURFEWS.

THE DAY WE VISITED THERE WAS A CURFEW IN PLACE FROM 7:00 P.M. TO 7:00 A.M. SHE HAS TO GO THROUGH THIS CHECKPOINT.

PALESTINIANS HAVE TO BE SEARCHED.

SETTLERS AREN'T NORMALLY CHECKED.

SHE HAS TO WALK.

SETTLERS CAN DRIVE.

PALESTINIANS NEED PERMISSION FOR VISITORS.

SETTLERS DON'T.

THE IDF SAYS ALL THESE MEASURES ARE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR SECURITY ASSESSMENTS TO PROVIDE SECURITY FOR ALL RESIDENTS.

SETTLERS HAVE PALESTINIANS LIVE SIDE BY SIDE, BUT THE RULES FOR EACH ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

FISA AND HER HUSBAND HAVE LIVED HIN IN THIS HOUSE FOR 14 YEARS.

THEY INHERITED FROM HER HUSBAND'S GRANDPARENT.

THEIR HOUSE OVERLOOKS A CENTURY POST, YET THEY FEAR FOR THEIR SAFETY.

>> Translator: THIS SCENE IS SO INAPPROPRIATE AND DEPRESSING FOR OUR HOME.

YOU CAN SEE UP HERE WHAT WE'VE PUT IN PLACE TO PROTECT OURSELVES FROM THE SETTLERS.

>> AS WE EVLEAVE HER HOUSE WE GET STOPPED BY AN ISRAELI SOLDIER.

HE SAYS WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO WALK ON THE MAIN ROAD.

WE HAVE TO WALK TO GET CHECKED AGAIN BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN INSIDE A PALESTINIAN HOME.

I WOULD POINT OUT A LACK OF LOGIC WHICH IS THESE PALESTINIAN HOUSES THE PALESTINIANS HAVE COME THROUGH THAT CHECKPOINT, SO THEY CAN'T HAVE POSSIBLY BROUGHT IN ANYTHING.

JUST SO I CAN UNDERSTAND BECAUSE I'M REALLY CONFUSED AS USUAL.

SO EVEN THOUGH -- EVEN THOUGH WE WENT THROUGH THAT CHECKPOINT BECAUSE WE HAVE HAVE BEEN IN THE HOUSE OF PALESTINIANS WE NOW HAVE TO GO JUMPING OVER PEOPLE'S GARDEN WALLS.

>> SO WE CAN'T WALK ON THE STREETS.

>> WE CAN'T GO STRAIGHT BACK.

>> IF YOU GO THOU THE CHECKPOINT AND STAY HERE IT'S GREAT.

BUT AS SOON AS YOU MOVE TO DIFFERENT AREAS -- >> YES, NOW YOU UNDERSTAND IT.

WE NEED TO GET RECHECKED.

SO THE ROUTE -- >> LET'S JUST GO.

THANK YOU WE'LL SEE YOU IN A >> WE CAN'T GET DOWN.

THE ACCESS TO THE GARDEN IS CLOSED.

SO THE PATH I CAN SEE IS THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS FENCE.

WE CAN'T WALK ON THE STREET BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN IN PALESTINIAN HOUSE, AND NOW WE'RE DEEMED A SECURITY RISK.

SO WE'RE STUCK.

EVENTUALLY THE SOLDIER HAS TO CALL INTO HIS SUPERIOR TO GIVE US SPECIAL PERMISSION TO WALK ON THE MAIN ROAD.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE HEAD OUT.

AND BACK THROUGH THE CHECK POINT WHERE WE'RE SEARCHED AGAIN.

A TINY GLIMPSE INTO WHAT PALESTINIANS NAVIGATE EVERY DAY.

THE U.N. SAYS THAT POST-OCTOBER 7th OVER 1,000 PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK HAVE BEEN DISPLACED, FORCED FROM HOME BY SECURITY RESTRICTIONS AND SETTLER VIOLENCE.

THE U.S. AND U.K. ARE NOW SANCTIONING EXTREME SETTLERS, BUT PALESTINIANS SAY IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

NOT WHEN SETTLERS CAN CLOAK THEMSELVES IN THE AUTHORITY OF THE ISRAELI STATE.

>> NOW TO THE GROWING INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE ON ISRAEL TO PROTECT PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS IN THEIR WAR ON HAMAS.

INTERNAL PRESSURE, TOO, IS RISING.

TODAY PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU MET WITH FAMILIES OF ISRAELI HOSTAGES AFTER THE IDF KILLED THREE ISRAELIS KIDNAPPED BY HAMAS IN GAZA ON FRIDAY.

JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT ALL THIS IS THE SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRIME MINISTER.

MARK, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN WE JUST FIRST START -- >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THANK YOU.

CAN WE FIRST START WITH THE REPORT FROM NAMA AND OTHER PARTS OF THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK THERE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR REACTION IS, BUT I WONDER WHETHER YOU MIGHT REACT ALSO TO WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SAID AND HE WARNED MANY MONTHS AGO, ACTUALLY TWO MONTHS AGO THAT THESE SETTLERS ARE POURING GASOLINE ON THE FIRE.

AND YET IT LOOKS LIKE THE SITUATION JUST PERSISTS AND IF NOT GETS WORSE.

IS THIS A GOVERNMENT POLICY OR WHAT?

>> ISRAEL'S GOVERNMENT POLICY IS CLEAR THAT ANYONE INVOLVED IN EXTREMIST VIGILANTLY VIOLENCE, THEN LAW ENFORCEMENT WILL BRING THEM TO JUSTICE.

ANYONE WHO BREAKS THE LOLL OR ANYONE WHO COMMITS VIOLENCE, THEY WILL BE ARRESTED, AND THEY WILL FACE THE FULL WEIGHT OF THE LAW.

WE HAVE NO TOLERANCE FOR THIS SORT OF VIGILANTE VIOLENCE.

I USE THE TERM, CHRISTIANE, VIGILANTLY VIOLENCE BECAUSE AS YOU SAID THERE ARE HUNDRED OF SETTLERS WHO LIVE OVER AND A MAJORITY OF THEM ARE NOT INVOLVED IN VIOLENCE IN ANY WAY.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A VERY SMALL MINORITY.

AND AS I SAID OUR POLICY AND THE SETTLER LEADERSHIP AGREES WITH US.

WE CAN'T ALLOW THESE PEOPLE TO TAKE THE LAW INTO THEIR HANDS AND COMMIT VIOLENCE.

THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE.

>> AND YET AS WE SAW IN THE REPORT, YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNMENT MINISTER AND THE OTHERS HAVE INCREASED GUN PERMITS AND GUN AVAILABILITY TO THEM.

THEY EXIST AND APPEAR TO OPERATE ALONGSIDE IN SOME CASES IDF SOLDIERS.

AND IT DOES LOOK LIKE IT'S GETTING WORSE TO THE POINT THAT, YOU KNOW, AS WE JUST REPORTED, U.S., FRANCE, YOU KNOW, BRITAIN, OTHER COUNTRIES ARE GETTING VERY ANXIOUS ABOUT THIS AND ARE SLAPPING SANCTIONS AND TRAVEL BANS ON THESE EXTREMISTS.

YOU SAY IT'S UNACCEPTABLE.

LET'S TAKE YOU AT YOUR WORD.

BUT WHAT IS THE ACCOUNTABILITY?

THESE PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZABLE.

WE FILMED THEM.

>> SO I'VE BEEN IN MEETINGS WHEN THESE ISSUES HAVE COME UP, YOU KNOW, WITH FOREIGN INTERLOCUTORS.

AND I CAN TELL YOU THE NUMBERS SHOW CLEARLY WE'RE ACTUALLY BEING SUCCESSFUL, THE LEVEL OF THIS VIGILANTE VIOLENCE IS GOING DOWN AND THAT'S A GOOD THING.

IF ONE WANTS TO DISCUSS VIOLENCE ON THE WEST BANK IT'S NOT EVEN A TWO-WAY STREAK.

THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE SILENCE IS PALESTINIANS AGAINST JEWS.

WE SAW RECENTLY THERE WAS THAT TERRIBLE ATTACK IN JERUSALEM WHERE THREE PEOPLE WERE SHOT DEAD AT A BUS STOP JUST GOING TO WORK ON A WEEKDAY MORNING.

MOST OF THE VIOLENCE IS UNFORTUNATELY PALESTINIAN ON JEW, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

>> ANY VIOLENCE IS DESPICABLE, BUT THE NUMBERS OBVIOUSLY SHOW THE OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF DEAD AND WOUNDED ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK ARE PALESTINIANS.

WE JUST QUOTED THE UNITED NATIONS SAYING HOW IT WAS A RECORD YEAR FOR KILLINGS OF PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK.

BUT LET ME MOVE ON BECAUSE -- >> I WANT TO RESPOND TO THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE FUNDAMENTALLY TERRORISTS AND I'D LIKE YOU TO LOOK AT THOSE NUMBERS CLEARLY.

SINCE OCTOBER 7th THERE ARE HAMAS SALES ACROSS THE WEST BANK, AND HAMAS HAS GIVEN INSTRUCTIONS TO THIS IS A TIME TO KILL, THIS IS TIME TO CAUSE A TERRORIST INCIDENT.

AND WE'VE BEEN PREEMPTING, AND THERE HAVE BEEN GUNFIGHTS AND WHEN WE CAN ARREST PEOPLE PEACEFULLY WE OF COURSE DO THAT, BUT OFTEN THERE ARE GUNFIGHTS AND THAT'S WHERE THE CASUALTIES ARE COMING FROM.

THIS IS US PREEMPTING HAMAS VIOLENCE AND SO FAR RELATIVELY EXCEPT FOR THAT TERRIBLE ATTACK IN JERUSALEM WE'VE MANAGED SO FAR TO KEEP THAT LEVEL OF TERRORIST VIOLENCE VERY LOW BY BEING PROACTIVE AND PREEMPTING.

>> IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN A HUGE NUMBER OF PALESTINIANS WERE KILLED BEFORE OCTOBER 7th INCLUDING THERE WERE INSTANCES OF FOR INSTANCE AN UNARMED TEENAGE BOY BEING KILLED AND THE LIKE.

BUT LET US NOT NITPICK NOW BECAUSE YOU'VE SAID YOUR THING, WE'VE SHOWN WHAT'S GOING ON, AND YOU SAID IT'S UNACCEPTABLE.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE WAITING FOR THE ACCOUNTABILITY.

MAY I ASK YOU AS THE PRIME MINISTER'S CHIEF ADVISOR PARTICULARLY WITH US, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, TO ASSESS WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE LAST FEW DAYS.

I MEAN, IT LOOKS LIKE THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE MOUNTING ON THE PRIME MINISTER INTERNALLY.

PEOPLE ARE VERY UPSET, GETTING MORE AND MORE UPSET YOUR OWN PEOPLE ABOUT THE HOSTAGES PARTICULARLY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN I GUESS YOU CAN CALL IT A FRIENDLY FIRE INCIDENT ON FRIDAY.

THE PRIME MINISTER APPARENTLY IS MEETING WITH HOSTAGE FAMILIES TODAY AT THE DEFENSE MINISTRY WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN PROTESTS ABOUT THIS.

WHAT IS GOING TO COME OUT OF THAT BECAUSE I'M JUST GOING TO READ YOU WHAT SOME FAMILIES ARE SAYING.

ONE OF THE FATHERS OF ONE OF THE THREE KILLED HOSTAGES SAYS THE IDF MURDERED HIS SON.

YOU KNOW, A VERY WELL-KNOWN ISRAELI COMMENTATOR SAYS THE KILLINGS ARE A WAR CRIME.

THESE ARE ISRAELIS.

THESE ARE ISRAELIS SAYING THAT.

HE SAID WE'RE AT WAR NOW.

OUR HEARTS, ALL OF OURS INCLUDING MINE ARE WITH THE SOLDIERS, BUT NOTHING GOOD CAME OF BLIND LOVE.

WHAT IS -- YEAH, GO AHEAD.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THIS STUFF?

>> SO WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE THREE HOSTAGES WAS REALLY A TRAGEDY BECAUSE THEY'D MANAGED TO ESCAPE HAMAS SOMEHOW, AND THEY WERE WALKING TOWARDS OUR FORCES.

AND UNFORTUNATELY THEY WERE TRAGICALLY, TRAGICALLY MISNOTIFIED AS A THREAT AND THEY WERE KILLED.

AND THAT IS -- THAT IS A TRAGIC MISTAKE.

I CAN SAY IN DEFENSE OF THE SOLDIERS, THOUGH, THE INVESTIGATION IS ONGOING.

BUT THE INTELLIGENCE TO THE SOLDIERS ON THE GROUND WAS HOSTAGES YOU SHOULD EXPECT TO SEE THEM IN SOME DARK DUNGEON, IN A TUNNEL, IN SOME ROOM IN THE HOUSE.

WE DIDN'T EXPECT TO SEE HOSTAGES WALKING AROUND THE STREETS.

AND THERE WAS OBVIOUSLY -- THEY PERCEIVE THESE THREE MEN AS A THREAT, AND THAT'S WHY THEY WERE KILLED.

BUT IT IS UNACCEPTABLE.

AND WE MADE CHANGES NOW TO THE INSTRUCTIONS OF OUR SOLDIERS SO THIS WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

BUT FOR ISRAELIS IT WAS THE WORST THING AS YOU SAID IN ANY COMBAT SITUATION ESPECIALLY IN URBAN COMBAT WHERE YOU'VE GOT CLOSE QUARTERS, FIGHTING IN AN OPEN AREA.

YOU OFTEN -- UNFORTUNATELY, YOU'LL GET FRIENDLY FIRE INCIDENCES WHERE YOU KILL YOUR OWN PEOPLE.

THIS WAS EVEN WORSE BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KILL A SOLDIER.

WE KILLED CIVILIANS WHO WERE BEING -- I MEAN CLOSE TO 70 DAYS THEY HAD BEEN HELD BY HAMAS.

THEY MANAGED SOMEHOW TO ESCAPE TO FREEDOM, AND THEY WERE CLOSE TO BEING SAVED, AND THEN BY A TRAGIC MISTAKE THEY ENDED UP DEAD.

TERRIBLE.

>> IT REALLY IS TERRIBLE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE EXPECTED TO SEE THEM WALKING -- AS YOU SAY WALKING AROUND THE STREET, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THEY WERE TRYING TO APPROACH THE SOLDIERS AND TRY TO GET RESCUED BY THEIR OWN SOLDIERS TO THE POINT THEY WERE SHIRTLESS AND WAVING A WHITE FLAG.

SO YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT THIS IS -- THIS IS -- HAS GONE DOWN AS YOU'VE SEEN VERY, VERY POORLY OBVIOUSLY WITH THE FAMILIES AND WITH MANY PEOPLE IN YOUR COUNTRY.

NOW, YOUR DEFENSE MINISTER SAID YESTERDAY ALONGSIDE THE U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY LLOYD AUSTIN THAT YOU, THEY, THE IDF ARE ADJUSTING TACTICS.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

WHAT ARE THE NEW RULES OF ENGAGEMENT?

>> SO OBVIOUSLY I'M NOT GOING TO GO INTO DETAILS BECAUSE HAMAS IS ALSO WATCHING.

BUT WE ARE AS THIS CONFLICT GOES ON, THERE'S ALWAYS LESSONS THAT CAN BE LEARNED.

YOU'RE ALWAYS REDEFINING AND LOOKING AGAIN AT WHAT YOU CAN DO BETTER.

AND I'M HAPPY TO TELL YOU THAT AS FAR AS I'VE SEEN THE NUMBERS, AND THESE NUMBERS HAVE BEEN SHARED WITH THE AMERICANS WHO ARE ACTUALLY SEEING THE NUMBER OF UNINVOLVED PEOPLE OR WHAT THE EXPERTS CALL VERY DRYLY COLLATERAL DAMAGE, THEINABLE OF CIVILIANS GETTING CAUGHT UP IN THE CROSS FIRE IS GOING DOWN, AND WE'RE MANAGING TO BE MORE SURGICAL AND HITTING HAMAS AND HITTING HAMAS HARD.

AS YOU KNOW IN THE NORTH THERE HAVE BEEN MANY, MANY SURRENDERS OF HAMAS TERRORISTS.

WE'RE CLOSE WE BELIEVE TO A COLLAPSE THERE.

IN THE SOUTH BECAUSE WE STARTED OUR OPERATION A BIT LATER, IT'LL TAKE A LITTLE MORE TIME.

BUT WE ARE GOING TO WIN THIS WAR.

HAMAS WILL BE DESTROYED AS A MILITARY ORGANIZATION.

>> THE DEFENSE MINISTER AGAIN, SAID AND WE REPORTED IT, I REPORTED IT ON OCTOBER 10th, TWO, THREE DAYS AFTER THE SLAUGHTER INSIDE ISRAEL.

HE SAID I HAVE RELEASED ALL THE RESTRAINTS.

WE HAVE REGAINED CONTROL OF AREAS, AND WE ARE MOVING TO A FULL OFFENSIVE.

BUT I HAVE RELEASED ALL RESTRAINTS ON MY PEOPLE.

DO YOU THINK IN RETROSPECT GIVEN THE MASSIVE NUMBER OF CIVILIANS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED AND NOW YOUR OWN SOLDIERS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED THAT THIS WAS A MISTAKE NOT TO -- NOT TO FOLLOW THE RULES OF WAR FROM THE VERY BEGINNING?

>> I WOULD ARGUE THAT ISRAEL HAS ALWAYS BEEN FOLLOWING THE RULES OF WAR, AND THAT IF YOU ACTUALLY COMPARE THE BEHAVIOR OF THE ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES IN THIS CAMPAIGN AGAINST HAMAS IN GAZA LET'S SAY TO OTHER FOREIGN ARMIES WHETHER IT WAS FIGHTING ISIS IN MOSUL OR FULUGEA AND SO FORTH, THAT ACTUALLY THE BEHAVIOR OF THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES COMPARES VERY WELL TO OTHER WESTERN ARMIES IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS.

WE UPHOLD THE RULES OF LAW.

THAT'S WHY WE ASKED CIVILIANS TO VACATE AREAS OF COMBAT BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT TO SEE CIVILIANS CAUGHT UP IN THE CROSS FIRE.

AND WHILE ISRAEL MAKES AN EFFORT, A MAXIMUM EFFORT TO TRY TO AVOID HURTING CIVILIANS, OF COURSE HAMAS HAS THE OPPOSITE STRATEGY.

AS OUR IDF SPOKESPERSON SAID YESTERDAY FOR US IT'S A TRAGEDY WHEN A CIVILIAN IS KILLED, FOR HAMAS IT'S THEIR STRATEGY.

FOR HAMAS A STRATEGY, FOR US A TRAGEDY.

THE EU SAYS SO, THE U.K. SAYS SO, THE U.S. SAYS SO.

THEY HAVE A DEFINED STRATEGY WHICH WANTS TO SEE MAXIMUM CIVILIAN CASUALTIES TO PROTECT THEIR TERROR MACHINE.

>> AND ALL THOSE COUNTRIES, THOSE ALLIES OF YOURS HAVE ALSO URGED YOU TO FOLLOW THE RULES OF WAR.

SO THERE IS A BIT OF A DISCONNECT HERE.

AND TO GREATER PROTECT CIVILIANS.

I'M GOING TO GET TO THE MUNITIONS IN A MOMENT, BUT I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT HOSTAGES BECAUSE IT APPEARS THAT OBVIOUSLY YOUR OWN PEOPLE WANT THAT.

THEY WANT THEIR PEOPLE, THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS, THEIR FRIENDS RELEASED.

FOR THEM IT APPEARS THAT IT IS IF NOT -- IF NOT THE FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS, EQUAL ORDER OF BUSINESS IN YOUR COUNTER OFFENSIVE.

AND YOU KEEP SAYING THAT PRESSURE HAS -- HAS -- IS WHAT BROUGHT HAMAS TO THE TABLE WITH MORE THAN 100 RELEASES A FEW WEEKS AGO.

AND YET IT WAS NEGOTIATIONS AND NEGOTIATIONS CONTINUE.

AND YOU'VE HEARD THAT SOME RELEASED HOSTAGES HAVE SAID THAT THEY ARE TERRIFIED WHEN THEY HEAR ABOUT AIR STRIKES.

THEY'RE NEAR THE MILITANTS.

THEY'RE TERRIFIED THEY'RE GOING TO GET KILLED.

IS IT PRESSURE OR IS IT NEGOTIATIONS?

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO NOW TO TRY TO ENGAGE IN MORE RELEASES?

>> SO I DON'T THINK IT'S EITHER -- EITHER ROAR.

I THINK AS YOU SAID CORRECTLY WE GOT OVER 100 PEOPLE OUT LAST MONTH.

IT WAS PREPICESLY NOT BECAUSE HAMAS SUDDENLY BECAME HUMANITARIANS.

THEY RELEASED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE FACING A LOT OF MILITARY PRESSURE FROM THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE AND THEY WERE DESPERATE FOR A TIME OUT, FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

AND WE SAID WE'D AGREE ONLY TO A CEASE-FIRE IF YOU RELEASED PEOPLE AND THAT FORCED THEIR HAND.

THAT COULD BE REPEATED IN THE FUTURE.

THAT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE.

AS WE NOW INCREASE OUR PRESSURE ON HAMAS, IT'S POSSIBLE WE COULD SEE THE RELEASE OF MORE HOSTAGE.

THAT'S OUR GOAL.

>> MARK, CAN I ASK YOU A BIT AS EVERYBODY CALLS IT THE DAY AFTER IN AIR QUOTES.

WHAT IS YOUR PLAN FOR POST-WAR?

IT APPEARS THERE IS A BIG -- IT APPEARS THERE'S A MAJOR SPLIT BETWEEN WHAT YOUR GOVERNMENT AND WHAT THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER ALLIES ARE SUGGESTING.

AND WE'VE HEARD THAT MANY TIMES FROM THE UNITED STATES THAT THEY WANT TO SEE A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

THEY INSIST ON THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION, THAT THEY WANT TO SEE A REFORMED, REVITALIZED PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY TRY TO REBUILD AND RECONTROL OR REGOVERN GAZA.

BUT FROM YOUR END EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE SEEMS TO BE COMING AT LEAST FROM PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO SEE THAT.

SO WHERE ARE YOU ALL HEADED?

WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

ARE YOU GOING TO REOCCUPY IT DESPITE WHAT YOUR ALLIES SAY?

>> SO INITIALLY WE'RE OBVIOUSLY GOING TO HAVE TO SECURITY CONTROL IN GAZA.

BUT WE'VE SAID OPENLY WE DON'T WANT TO REOCCUPY.

WE DON'T WANT TO SEE A PERMANENT ISRAELI PRESENCE THERE.

ON THE CONTRARY.

BUT WE HAVE TWO MAJOR GOALS.

AFTER HAMAS IS DEFEATED WE WANT TO SEE A DEMILITARIZED AND DE-RADICALIZED GAZA STRIP.

AND ULTIMATELY GETTING RID OF HAMAS IS GOOD FOR ISRAELIS BECAUSE WE'VE GOT THIS TERRORIST ENCLAVE ON OUR SOUTHERN BORDER AND OUR PEOPLE LIVE IN FEAR OF TERRORISTS CROSSING THE FRONTIER AND MURDERING OUR CHILDREN, YES.

YOU'VE BEEN COVERING THIS STORY MORE THAN MOST FRCH INTEREST 16 YEARS HAMAS HAS BEEN RULING THE GAZA STRIP.

WHAT HAVE THEY BROUGHT THE GAZANS?

WHAT POSITIVE THING HAVE THEY BROUGHT THE GAZANS?

I CAN ONLY THINK OF BLOODSHED, MISERY, AND OF COURSE POVERTY.

>> AND YET MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE FOR THE SAKE OF ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS, THAT IT WOULD ONLY BE A POLITICAL SOLUTION AND NOT A REOCCUPATION OR AS YOU SAY IN THE WORDS YOU USE A DEMILITARIZED SECURITY ZONE, WHICH AMOUNTS TO WHAT PEOPLE FEAR IS ANOTHER OCCUPATION.

AND IF YOU KNOW -- IF YOU NOTE SECRETARY LLOYD AUSTIN HAS WARNED THAT FOR INSTANCE, AND THIS IS IN THE CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH THE HUGE CIVILIAN CASUALTY TOLL, THAT YOUR AIM FOR A, YOU KNOW -- WELL, YOUR TACTICS RIGHT NOW COULD LEAD TO AN EVENTUAL STRATEGIC DEFEAT.

SO YOU'VE SORT OF -- I'M SORRY TO SAY YOU'VE -- WE'VE SEEN THIS PATTERN BEFORE.

PROBLEMS IN GAZA, ISRAELI COUNTER OFFENSIVE, TRUCES, AND ON AND ON IT GOES WITHOUT ANY POLITICAL SOLUTION.

THIS IS THE WORST AREAS SURELY WHERE THE PEDAL HITS THE METAL HERE.

>> SO I WOULD ARGUE AND WE SINCERELY BELIEVE THAT IN DEFEATING HAMAS, WE OPEN THE OPPORTUNITY FOR POLITICAL SOLUTIONS THAT BECOME -- THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE TODAY.

BECAUSE HAMAS AS YOU KNOW IS THE MOST VIOLENT ENEMY OF PEACE.

AND IF THEIR PATH IS DID CRETTED -- I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

PEOPLE SAY BY DEFEATING HAMAS OR ALL THE DESTRUCTION INVOLVED IN THAT, YOU'RE GOING TO CREATE A NEW GENERATION OF EXTREMISTS.

AND WE BELIEVE THE COUNTRY IS CLUE.

IF HAMAS WINS, IF HAMAS SOMEHOW STAYS IN POWER AFTER THE TERRIBLE OCTOBER 7th MASSACRES, THAT'S A VICTORY FOR THEM.

THAT ENERGIZES ISLAMIST EXTREMISM NOT JUST IN GAZA BUT ACROSS THE REGION AND BEYOND.

BUT IF ISRAEL RESOUNDLY DEFEATS HAMAS AS I BELIEVE WE WILL, IF IT'S CLEAR HAMAS IS PART OF RADICALISM AND BRUTAL TERRORISM AND VIOLENCE, IF THAT IS SEEN TO BE A LOSING STRATEGY, IF THAT IS A DEAD END, THAT'S A VICTY AGAINST THAT SORT OF TERRORISM ALSO EVERYWHERE.

THIS WAR, AND WE WILL AND HAMAS WILL BE DISCREDITED AND THE PEOPLE OF GAZA WILL BE ABLE TO EXPRESS THEIR PENT-UP ANGER FOR HAMAS FOR STARTING THIS WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE AND BRINGING ALL THIS ANGER AND DESTRUCTION UPON THEM, I REALLY BELIEVE THERE'LL BE ROOM FOR ARRANGEMENTS THAT CAN BE FAR SUPERIOR THAN WHAT WE'VE HAD UP UNTIL NOW.

>> EXCEPT THAT YOUR PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID HE DOESN'T WANT HAMAS OR FATAH EITHER, THE GROUP THAT'S RECOGNIZED PALESTINIAN ON THE WEST BANK.

THEY'RE BEING CHRIS CREDITED AND WEAKENED AS WELL.

WHAT IS THEIR POLITICAL PLAN?

>> IT'S NOT JUST ISRAEL THAT HAS PROBLEMS WITH THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

YOU QUOTED BEFORE THE AMERICANS WHO TALKED ABOUT -- >> BUT THEY STILL WANT.

THEY'RE STILL THE ONLY OPTION RIGHT NOW.

>> CAN I JUST SAY TWO THINGS?

I THINK IT'S CLOSE TO 74 DAYS SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th MASSACRE.

AND AS YOU KNOW THE FATAH LEADERSHIP, THE PA LEADERSHIP ON THE WEST BANK HAS STILL REFUSED TO CONDEMN THE BEHEADINGS, THE BURNING OF PEOPLE ALIVE, THE RAPES, THE VIOLENCE.

AND EVEN THE OFFICIAL PA MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS WHAT WAS IT THREE WEEKS AGO PUTS OUT A LETTER ON ITS OFFICIAL STATIONERY THIS IS THE FOREIGN MINISTRY OF THE PA SAYING THAT THE KILLINGS AT THE MUSIC FESTIVAL WHERE HAMAS FIGHTERS MACHINE GUNNED THE YOUNG MUSIC REVELERS THERE.

THAT WAS ACTUALLY THEY SAID DONE BY ISRAELI HELICOPTERS.

IT'S ALMOST THIS SORT OF OBSCENE CONSPIRACY THEORY THAT'S MUTT OUT BY THE PA. >> AND YET ON THIS PROGRAM -- MARK, ON THIS PROGRAM I HAVE HAD PA CONDEMN THE DEATH OF CIVILIANS AND KILLING OF CIVILIANS AND ADMIT THAT IS NOT AT ALL -- AT ALL WHAT THEY -- >> THEY WON'T SPECIFICALLY CONDEMN HAMAS.

THEY WON'T CONDEMN HAMAS' VIOLENCE.

THEY WON'T CONDEMN SPECIFICALLY.

AND ON THE CONTRARY, THEY WILL JUSTIFY IT.

I THINK THE PALESTINIAN PRIME MINISTER SAID THE OTHER DAY HAMAS IS PART OF THE PALESTINIAN FAMILY.

IF THEY WERE PART OF MY FAMILY I'D BE EMBARRASSED.

>> YES, I I THINK MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE -- ANYWAY, WE'RE GOING TO RUN OUT OF TIME.

BUT MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THEY WON'T BE DESTROYED AS YOU SAY, AND THAT THEY MIGHT -- SOME POLITICAL SITUATION IS GOING TO HAVE TO COME OUT OF THIS.

BUT ANYWAY WE'VE TRIED TO EXPLORE IT.

WE'LL COME BACK TO IT.

MARK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> NOW, AS THE YEAR COMES TO A CLOSE, WE LOOK AHEAD TO 2024, WHICH IS SET TO BRING A WORLD OF CHALLENGES FROM TURMOIL IN THE MIDDLE EAST, A GRUELING BATTLE IN UKRAINE, TO GROWING TENSIONS IN TAIWAN.

AND ON TOP OF THAT MORE THAN HALF THE GLOBAL POPULATION IS HEADING TO THE POLLS IN A GROUNDBREAKING YEAR OF ELECTIONS, THE MOST IMPORTANT OF WHICH WILL BE IN THE UNITED STATES AND THAT WILL LIKELY BE A TRUMP-BIDEN REMATCH.

THE DEPUTY EDITOR JOINS TO DISCUSS THE TEN TRENDS TO WATCH IN 2024.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

TOM SANDERS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU WRITE IN THE WORLD AHEAD IN 2024 THAT IT IS A PIVOTAL YEAR FOR DEMOCRACIES.

WHY SO?

>> WELL, WE THINK IT'S THE FIRST TIME IN CUBAN HISTORY WHERE MOST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, MORE THAN HALF OF THE GLOBAL POPULATION LIVE IN A COUNTRY THAT WILL HOLD AN ELECTION IN 2024.

SO IT'S ABOUT 4.2 BILLION PEOPLE.

AND THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD AS YOU KNOW IS 8.1 BILLION, SO THAT MEANS MORE THAN HALF, MOST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD ARE LIVING IN A COUNTRY THAT WILL HAVE A NATIONAL ELECTION IN THE COMING YEAR.

AND THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.

AND SO YOU'D SAY THAT SURELY IS A TRIUMPH FOR DEMOCRACY, BUT I THINK IT'S GOING TO PUT A SPOTLIGHT ON THE NATURE OF DEMOCRACY AND THE FACT THAT THERE IS MORE TO DEMOCRACY THAN VOTING.

THAT THERE'S, YEAH, SURE, A GREAT BIG QUANTITY OF VOTING HAPPENING, BUT THERE'S QUANTITY OVER QUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO DEMOCRACY.

>> YOU HAVE A QUOTE IN THERE I WANT TO PULL OUT.

IT SAYS IN THEORY IT SHOULD BE A TRIUMPHANT YEAR FOR DEMOCRACY.

IN PRACTICE IT WILL BE THE OPPOSITE.

WHY?

>> WELL, BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE DEMOCRACIES ARE EXTREMELY FLAWED.

SO AT THE ECONOMIST, OUR SISTER COMPANY, THE EIU, ACTUALLY PREPARES SOMETHING CALLED A DEMOCRACY INDEX AND GIVES EVERY DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD A SCORE.

AND SOME COUNTRIES ARE CLASSED AS FULL DEMOCRACIES.

SO I'M TALKING TO YOU FROM LONDON AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE AN ELECTION IN BRITAIN IN 2024, AND IT SEEMS VERY LIKELY THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT WILL BE CHUCKED OUT.

THAT'S ONE OF THE FEATURES OF DEMOCRACY, THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO VOTE TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT OR CHANGE THE LEADERSHIP.

AND IF YOU GO TO THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM, WE ALSO KNOW THERE'S GOING TO BE AN ELECTION IN RUSSIA IN 2024.

AND I CAN TELL YOU WHAT THE RESULT OF THAT ELECTION IS GOING TO BE.

RIGHT NOW VLADIMIR PUTIN IS GOING TO BE -- HE'S GOING TO WIN.

HE'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA.

AND HE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THAT ELECTION AT ALL UNLESS HE WAS SURE HE CAN GUARANTEE THAT OUTCOME.

SO THAT'S NOT A DEMOCRACY, THAT'S A SHAM.

AND YOU HAVE OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE MILITARY MORE OR LESS AUTHORITARIAN.

AND RIGHT BELOW THE MIDDLE YOU GET THE FLOOR DEMOCRACIES.

THE TWO BIGGEST DEMOCRACIES OF THE WORLD INDIA AND THE UNITED STATES BOTH VOTING NEXT YEAR ARE BOTH CLASSIFIED AS FLAWED DEMOCRACIES FOR ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

IT'S POSSIBLE FOR THE OUTCOME TO CHANGE THE LEADERSHIP OF THE COUNTRY BUT THERE ARE OTHER PROBLEMS WITH THEIR DEM OCRATES.

>> BEING HERE IN THE UNITED STATES I'VE GOT TO ASK WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF FLAWED AND WHY DOES THE UNITED STATES MEET THAT FLAWED DEMOCRACY?

>> THERE'S NO SINGLE DEFINITION.

IT'S A QUESTION HOW MANY POINTS YOU SCORE ON THE RANGE OF METRICS.

ESSENTIALLY IN THE CASE OF THE USS THERE'S A FEW PROBLEMS.

THURSDAY VER CLEARLY A BREAK DOWN OF TRUST IN THE WHOLE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

WHETHER YOU'RE ON THE LEFT OR RIGHT YOU THINK THE PROCESS IS BROKEN IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

AND THERE'S ALSO THINGS LIKE -- YOU KNOW, AS AN OUTSIDER IT SEEMS EXTRAORDINARY IN AMERICA POLITICIANS ARE ALLOWED TO DRAW THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR ELECTIONS.

YOU HAVE PARTISAN BOUNDARY COMMISSIONS.

AND THEY'VE GONE BACK TO THE SITUATION YOU GET IN MANY OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

THAT ESSENTIALLY MEANS YOU CAN DRAW ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES THAT CAN GUARANTEE YOUR GUY ALWAYS WINS.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN LOSE IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT IS IF YOU ARE PRIMARIED BY SOMEONE MORE EXTREME FROM YOUR OWN PARTY.

THAT'S A RECIPE FOR POLARIZATION, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN AMERICA.

AND SO THAT IN TURN LEAD TO A BREAK DOWN IN TRUST IN THE OVERALL DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

TO BE FAIR I THINK THE U.S. SCORES 7 AND A BIT OUT OF 10, WHICH IS PRETTY GOOD.

IT'S ONLY JUST A FLAWED DEMOCRACY.

>> YOU ARE ALSO A PUBLICATION THAT SAYS THIS ELECTION COMING IN THE UNITED STATES IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

IT'S ONE IF NOT THE MOST CRUCIAL, OUR FUTURE IS ON THE LINE.

NOW, WE HAVE HEARD THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN FROM 2016 TO 2012, 2020.

SO WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT IT THIS TIME YOU THINK?

>> WELL, A FEW THINGS.

I THINK LAST TIME DONALD TRUMP WAS PRESIDENT HE TRIED TODAY DO VARIOUS THINGS, AND A LOT OF THE THING HE TRIED TO DO HE WAS PREVENTED FROM DOING.

AND THIS TIME AROUND HE SEEMS TO BE PLANNING TO ENSURE THAT HE CAN -- HE CAN MAKE MORE OF THE CHANGES HE WANTS TO, YOU KNOW, POLITICIZE THE SORT OF EXECUTIVE -- THE THINGS LIKE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

HE WANTS TO CHUCK OUT EVERYBODY AND REPLACE THEM WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE WHO CAN THEN PROSECUTE HIS ENEMIES AND THAT SORT OF THING.

SO THAT'S VERY CONCERNING.

AND ALSO HE'S MAKING NO ILLUSIONS ABOUT HOW THE END OF THE TERM IF HE WINS AGAIN HE'D LIKE TO STAY ON A BIT LONGER.

I THINK THERE'S A WORD FOR THAT WHEN YOU GET TO STAY IN POWER FOR AS LONG AS YOU LIKE.

AND I SEEM TO REMEMBER YOU WEREN'T TERRIBLY KEEN ON THAT ARRANGE LT IN THE 18th CENTURY.

ANYWAY, THERE'S THAT.

I THINK THE OTHER BIG DIFFERENCE IS THE WORLD NOW IS SORT OF MUCH MORE AWARE OF THE GLOBAL IMPLICATIONS OF A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

IF AMERICANS WANT TO VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP IN AMERICA THAT'S FINE.

THAT'S UP TO THEM.

IT'S THEIR DEMOCRATIC CHOICE.

BUT -- BUT THE GLOBAL IMPLICATIONS WOULD POTENTIALLY BE HUGE.

HE'S TALKING ABOUT PULLING OUT OF NATO.

OBVIOUSLY HE WANTS TO PULL THE PLUG ON SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HE'D DO OVER TAIWAN.

>> I WONDER WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE IS OF RE-ELECTING A PRESIDENT THAT WAS DISCONTENT WITH THE RESULTS LAST TIME AND ACTIVELY TRIED TO OVERTURN THOSE RESULTS.

IF HE WAS TO GET BACK IN POWER, WHAT DOES THAT SIGNAL I GUESS TO THE WORLD ABOUT US, THE GRAND EXPERIMENT THAT IS DEMOCRACY?

>> YEAH, EXACTLY.

I MEAN AMERICA IS NOT A GREAT ADVERTISEMENT FOR DEMOCRACY RIGHT NOW AND WOULD BE AN EVEN WORSE ONE IF YOU HAVE AN ELECTION DENIER WHO COMES BACK IN AND SAYS MAYBE WE DON'T NEED ELECTIONS IN THE FUTURE.

THE WEIRD THING ABOUT IT IS THE 2020 ELECTION, HE'S CAST DOUBT ON THE BIG LIE IS THAT HE REALLY WON THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

BUT MIRACULOUSLY THE CHEATING ONLY HE CLAIMS HAPPENED FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

AND ALL OF THE SENATE SEATS AND THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE SEATS, ALL OF THAT WORKED FINE.

I MEAN IT SEEMS VERY IMPLAUSIBLE THAT THE MEDDLING ONLY HAPPENS IN ONE PART OF THE TICKET WHEN PEOPLE ARE VOTING ON THE SAME PIECE OF PAPER.

SO, YEAH, THE WHOLE THING IS DEEPLY IMPLAUSIBLE.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT -- IT WOULD JUST SEND AN ODD MESSAGE TO PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD TO WHO AMERICA IS TRYING TO PREACH THE VIRTUES OF DEMOCRACY.

THE PLACE WHERE DEMOCRACY REALLY IS DEPENDING ON RIGHT NOW IS UKRAINE.

AND IT'S REALLY CLEAR REPUBLICANS DON'T WANT TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE FINANCIALLY AND MILITARILY IN THE WAY IT HAS BEEN.

AND THAT'S VERY PERILOUS NOT JUST FOR UKRAINE BUT FOR, YOU KNOW, A EUROPEAN DEMOCRACY THAT IS IN GRAVE DANGER.

>> I WONDER SINCE YOU MENTION UKRAINE, RIGHT NOW ONE OF THE CENTRAL PREMISES FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN IS THAT WE NEED TO SUPPORT DEMOCRACIES SUCH AS UKRAINE WITH ARMS.

WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE DEMOCRACY THAT IS ISRAEL WITH OUR SUPPORT IN THE ISRAEL-GAZA CONFLICT.

RIGHT?

AND I WONDER AS THESE TENSIONS KEEP GETTING STRAINED FURTHER AND FURTHER AND AS THE PUBLIC MIGHT EVOLVE THEIR THINKING ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE WILLING TO STOMACH, WHAT DOES THAT DO TO THAT SORT OF UNDERLYING PRINCIPLE THAT SEEM TUESDAY BE INBINDING FACTOR HERE WHICH IS WE NEED CORE DEMOCRACIES?

>> YEAH, EXACTLY.

AMERICA HAS GONE THROUGH ISOLATIONIST PERIODS IN THE PAST AND SEEMS TO BE GOING INTO ONE NOW.

WHAT I WOULD SAY PARTICULARLY IN REGARD TO UKRAINE, BECAUSE THAT SEEM TUESDAY BE WHERE THERE IS MORE RESISTANCE TO CONTINUED FUNDING.

AND WE KNOW REPUBLICANS HISTORICALLY HAVE BEEF WITH UKRAINE IN PARTICULAR.

JUST BEING COMPLETELY LOOKING AT AN ACCOUNTANCE VIEW OF THIS THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE DEAL FOR THE UNITED STATES TO BASICALLY WEAR DOWN THE MILITARY OF ONE OF YOUR BIGGEST GEOPOLITICAL RIVALS WITHOUT HAVING TO PUT AMERICAN SERVICE MEN AND WOMEN IN THE LINE OF FIRE AT VERY LOW COST BECAUSE IT AFFECTS THE SUBSIDIES GOING TO UKRAINE GOING STRAIGHT -- FOR A LARGE PART OF IT IT'S GOING STRAIGHT TO YOUR OWN ARMS COMPANIES.

SO IT'S SUBSIDY.

IT'S CREATING JOBS AT HOME IN AMERICA, AND IT'S WEARING DOWN THE RUSSIAN MILITARY AT VERY -- IT'S JUST AN INCREDIBLE DEAL.

SO EVEN IF YOU DON'T CARE AT ALL ABOUT DEMOCRACY BUT YOU DO CARE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AMERICA'S CONTINUING MILITARY SUPREMACY OVER OTHER POWERS, I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

SO, YEAH, IT'S A MYSTERY TO ME.

AND, YES, I REALIZE THERE ARE CONCERNS ABOUT BORDER SECURITY AND SO FORTH.

BUT YOU CAN HAVE BOTH, RIGHT?

I MEAN THIS IS A GREAT DEAL.

AND AMERICA SHOULD BE CONTINUING TO SUPPORT UKRAINE JUST FOR THAT REASON, FOR ITS OWN SELF-INTEREST.

>> YOU KNOW, IN THE MAGAZINE YOU POINT OUT HOW IN AFRICA RIGHT NOW THERE HAVE BEEN NINE REGIME CHANGES IN THE PAST THREE YEARS.

WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE SHIFT WHERE PEOPLE MIGHT BE IN SOME WAYS OKAY WITH MILITARY STRONGMEN?

>> YES, SO THERE'S QUITE A WORRYING LOAD OF POLLING COMING FROM SOUTH AFRICA WHERE PEOPLE ARE VERY UPSET WITH THE WAY THEIR DEMOCRACY IS GOING, THAT THEY HAVE THE ANC IN POWER EVERY INS DEMOCRACY WAS INTRODUCED, A MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY, AND YET THEY HAVE BENEFIT PROBLEMS AND LOTS OF UNEMPLOYMENT, THE POWER GRID DOESN'T WORK, AND SO FORTH.

THIS MAY BE AND SEEMS VERY LIKELY TO BE SOME FIRST OF ACTION IN WHICH THE ANC GETS LESS THAN 50% OF THE VOTE.

POLLING SHOWS THEY WANT ORDER AND JOBS.

I THINK IT WAS 70% OF SOUTH AFRICAN VOTERS SAID THEY MIND ACCEPT A STRONG MAN SHOWING UP AND RULING.

AND EVEN IF THAT WAS UNDEMOCRATIC AS LONG AS THEY SORT OF FIXED THE ECONOMY AND GOT JOBS GOING AGAIN, PEOPLE ARE REALLY AT THE END OF THEIR TETHER ON THIS.

ACTUALLY YOU SEE THE SAME.

NOT QUITE TO THE SAME EXTENT, BUT YOU DO SEE PEOPLE SAYING, WELL, ACTUALLY DEMOCRACY IS ALL FINE AND GOOD.

BUT WHAT WE REALLY CARE ABOUT IS THIS ISSUE OR THAT ISSUE.

AND IT'S VERY OFTEN AN ECONOMIC STABILITY OR JOBS OR WHATEVER.

AND SO I THINK THERE'S A DANGER FOR THOSE IN SIGNIFICANT DEMOCRACIES THAT WE SORT OF TAKE IT FOR GRANTED AND WE THINK THINGS WOULD BE OKAY IF WE HAD A MORE AUTHORITARIAN LEADER AS LONG AS THEY CAN MAKE OTHER THINGS WORK WELL.

>> DO YOU SEE ANY BRIGHT SPOTS IN TERMS OF DEMOCRACY LOOKING OUT AT 2024?

>> I HAVE TO SAY I SEE VERY FEW BRIGHT SPOTS ALL TOGETHER LOOKING AT 2024.

IT'S A WORLD INCREASING ZONES OF IMPUNITY WHERE NOBODY IN PARTICULAR IS IN CHARGE.

YOU'VE GOT IRAN'S PROXIES CAUSING TROUBLE ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST.

YOU HAVE THIS SHORT WAR BETWEEN AZERBAIJAN AND ARMENIA.

YOU CAN WALK FROM THE ATLANTIC TO THE RED SEA, 6,000 KILOMETERS, JUST PASSING THROUGH COUNTRIES THAT HAVE HAD A COUP SINCE 2020.

SO THE WORLD SEEMS TO BE PREPARING FOR A SITUATION WHERE THERE'S MORE CONFLICT IN THE FUTURE RATHER THAN LESS.

THE UNIONI POLAR MOMENT WHERE AMERICA WAS THE SOLE SUPER POWER HAS DEFINITELY PASSED.

AND THERE ARE NOW MANY GREAT POWERS, LARGE POWERS SORT OF VYING FOR INFLUENCE.

AND THEN THE MIDDLE POWERS, THIS MAKES THE MIDDLE POWERS THE SORT OF SWEETENED POWERS LIKE SAUDI ARABIA AND IRAN AND TURKEY, GIVES THEM A LOT MORE CLOUT AS WELL.

SO THERE'S JUST THE GENERAL KIND OF FEELING IF YOU WANT TO DO SOMETHING LIKE INVADE YOUR NEIGHBOR, NOW'S A GOOD TIME.

AND VENEZUELA IS TALKING ABOUT INVADING GAYANA.

THERE DOES SEEM TO BE A MOVE TOWARD MUCH MORE DISORDER AND CONFLICT.

>> IS THERE A NEW COLD WAR IF THERE WERE TO BE THE SORT OF MULTI-POWERS, MULTIPOLLS.

IS THERE A COLD WAR BREWING NOW BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES?

AND WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE GOING FORWARD?

>> ABSOLUTELY THERE IS A COLD WAR.

IF YOU'VE THEN -- YES, YOU'VE GOT A MULTI-POLAR WORLD AND YOU'VE GOT A CHINA LED BLOC WHICH DOES INCLUDE RUSSIA AND WESTERN COUNTRY LED BLOC AND OTHER COUNTRIES TOO WHO SORT OF WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH BOTH SIDES.

VIETNAM IS DOING A GREAT JOB OF PLAYING BOTH SIDES.

SOUTHEAST ASIA HAS BEEN FRIENDS WITH CHINA AND ALSO BE FRIENDS WITH AMERICA.

IT'S VERY MUCH A COLD WAR VIBE.

THE BIG DIFFERENCE, THOUGH, BETWEEN THIS AND THE ORIGINAL COLD WAR IS THAT THERE WAS NO TRADE TO SPEAK OF BETWEEN THE WEST AND THE SOVIET UNION DURING THE ORIGINAL COLD WAR.

AND THERE'S AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF TRADE AND ECONOMIC LINKAGE BETWEEN CHINA AND THE WEST.

JUST THINK OF YOUR iPHONE AGAIN.

IT'S ASSEMBLED IN CHINA AND HAS COMPONENTS FROM ACTUALLY ALL OVER ASIA.

BUT THIS IS A VERY DIFFERENT SITUATION BECAUSE SUPPLY CHAINS ARE SO DEPENDENT ON CHINA.

SO THIS IS WHY WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT DECOUPLING AND DERISKING AND COMPANIES TRYING TO MOVE THEIR SUPPLY CHAINS AND THEIR FACTORIES OUT OF CHINA.

IT'S ACTUALLY INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT.

BECAUSE EVEN IF YOU MOVE YOUR ASSEMBLY -- AND THIS IS WHAT APPLE IS DOING WITH iPHONES.

IT'S ASSEMBLING SOME OF THEM IN INDIA NOW AND MOVED SOME MANUFACTURING TO VIETNAM.

THE FACT IS A LOT OF COMPONENTS AND MATERIALS ARE COMING FROM CHINA.

IF THERE WERE TO BE A WAR IN TAIWAN AND THERE WERE TO BE SANCTIONS IMPOSED I'M NOT SURE TRYING TO BUILD THINGS IN VIETNAM OR INDIA WOULD HELP BECAUSE I DON'T THINK YOU'D BE ABLE TO GET ANY COMPONENTS OUT OF CHINA.

>> AND TAIWAN IS ONE OF THOSE PLACESWISE AN ELECTION THIS YEAR.

>> IT IS.

THE TWO BIG ELECTIONS WE THINK ARE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL NEXT YEAR ARE TAIWAN AT THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR AND THE U.S. AT THE END OF THE YEAR.

AND IN TAIWAN THERE ARE ESSENTIALLY THREE CANDIDATES.

AND THE TWO OPPOSITION CANDIDATES WHO LOOK LIKE THEY MIGHT HAVE GOT TOGETHER, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN BAD NEWS FOR THE INCUMBENT, FROM THE DPW, THE RULING PARTY RIGHT NOW, THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET TOGETHER.

SO IT DOES MEAN THE DPP CANDIDATE, WILLIAM LAI, SEEMS LIKELY TO WIN.

AND HE'S A MORE INDEPENDENCE LEANING CANDIDATE WHEREAS THE OTHER TWO SAY, NO, WE SHOULD BE FRIENDS WITH CHINA AND SO ON.

SO WHATEVER HAPPENS, IT REALLY IS GOING TO SET THE MOOD NOT JUST ACROSS THE TAIWAN STRAIT BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY ON U.S.-CHINA RELATIONS.

BECAUSE IF I'M XI JINPING AND WILLIAM LAI DOES WIN, THAT DOES SORT OF MAKE SLIGHTLY MORE PRO-INDEPENDENCE NOISES AS HE WANTS TO DO, THEN OF COURSE THE FIRST THING I WANT TO DO IS ESSENTIALLY SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I DO SOMETHING PROVOCATIVE ACROSS THE TAIWAN STRAIT.

YOU KNOW, IS AMERICA THE OVERSTRETCHED SUPER POWER?

HAS IT GOT TOO MUCH ON ITS PLATE WITH UKRAINE AND GAZA AND, YOU KNOW, TROUBLE IN THE RED SEA AND ALL THIS SORT OF THING.

SO THE FIRST THING I'M GOING TO WANT TO DO IS NOT JUST SEE HOW TAIWAN RESPONDS BUT SEE HOW AMERICA RESPONDS.

AND I'M NOT SAYING THERE'S GOING TO BE AN INVASION OF TAIWAN IN 2024.

THAT SEEMS INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY.

BUT ESSENTIALLY THIS IS GOING TO SET, YOU KNOW, THE BROADER FRAMEWORK FOR U.S.-CHINA RELATIONS, THE OUTCOME OF THAT ELECTION.

SO IT'S WORTH WATCHING VERY CLOSELY.

>> SO YOU END YOUR LIST ON A POSITIVE NOTE, AND LET'S END OUR CONVERSATION THERE, TOO, ABOUT POSSIBLE UNIFYING MOMENTS IN 2024.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING?

>> WELL, THERE'S A FEW.

BUT I'M AFRAID I'M A BIT SKEPTICAL ABOUT MOST OF THEM.

ONE OF THEM IS THE OLYMPICS.

AND THE OLYMPICS CAN BE EVEN FOR A JADED OLD CYNIC LIKE ME CAN BE SURPRISINGLY MOVING TO SEE ALL THE BEST PEOPLE IN A PARTICULAR SPORT FACING OFF.

AND THIS IS ACTUALLY REALLY COOL.

BUT THE 2024 OLYMPICS ARE LIKELY TO BE OVERSHADOWED ABOUT ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHAT ABOUT ATHLETES FROM RUSSIA AND BELARUS AND ARE THEY ABLE TO COMPETE AND DO THEY COMPETE UNDER A NEUTRAL FLAG AND ALSO VLADIMIR PUTIN SAYS HE WANTS TO HAVE HIS OWN VERSION OF THE GAMES CALLED THE FRIENDSHIP GAMES WHICH IS FOR RUSSIA AND ITS FRIENDS.

THAT WHOLE THING HAS SEEMED TO BECOME A POLITICAL FOOTBALL ALREADY AS IT OFTEN DOES.

AND THEN THERE'S THE POSSIBILITY OF AMERICANS RETURNING TO THE MOON IN 2024.

THERE'S SUPPOSED TO BE THIS MISSION BLASTING OFF IN NOVEMBER -- NOVEMBER 24.

IT MAY GET PUSHED INTO NOVEMBER 2025.

THIS SHOULD BE INSPIRING.

IT'S GOING TO INCLUDE THE FIRST BLACK MAN, THE FIRST WOMAN, AND THE FIRST NORTHERN AMERICAN TO LEAVE EARTH ORBIT.

AND SO SURELY THAT'S A CAUSE FOR CELEBRATION.

TO SOME EXTENT IT IS, BUT I THINK AGAIN IT'S LIKELY TO BE OVERSHADOWED BY THE POLITICAL MESSAGING AROUND THIS.

THIS IS VERY RIM NISSANT OF THE COLD WAR AND VERY REMINISCENT OF THE WARM UP MISSIONS DONE BEFORE APOLLO AND THE LANDING IN 1959.

I THINK THIS MAY ONCE AGAIN LOOK LIKE AMERICA FLEXING ITS TECHNOLOGICAL MUSCLES AND SAYING, LOOK, WE'RE THE BEST AT THIS.

AND SAME WAY WE'RE AT THE BEST AT GOING TO THE MOON, WE'RE SUPERIOR IN OTHER WAYS, TOO.

I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO BE VERY REMINISCENT OF THE COLD WAR AS WE ARE NOW IN A ANOTHER COLD WAR.

I'M AFRAID OF THE CHANCES OF THAT LEADING -- IN THEORY YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE FOUR MEMBERS OF THE HUMAN RACE IN ONE PLACE AND LOOKING BACK AT THE EARTH AND SEEING ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY ELSE.

AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FIND PICTURES OF THE EARTH AND IT'S GOING TO BE MOVE BUT I EKT SPK THAT'LL BE POLITICALLY CHARGED AS WELL.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, AS UKRAINE FIGHTS TO SAVE ITS SOVEREIGNTY ANOTHER FIGHT IS UNDER WAY TO SAVE ITS HERITAGE.

JONATHAN BRENT IS A HISTORIAN AND CEO OF A JEWISH ACADEMIC AND CULTURAL INSTITUTE FOUNDED A CENTURY AGO TO PRESERVE A RECORD OF JEWISH LIFE IN EASTERN EUROPE.

THIS MONTH HE TRAVELED TO KYIV'S LIBRARY WHICH HOLDS A TREASURE-TROVE OF JEWISH HISTORIC HEART FACTS THAT HE HOPES TO DIGITIZE AND PRESERVE FOREVER.

AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM, CAN I ASK YOU WHY AND WHAT ABOUT THIS COLLECTION IS SO IMPORTANT YOU MADE EARLIER A TRIP IN THE MIDST OF THIS WAR?

>> IT'S ONE OF THE MOST PRECIOUS COLLECTIONS OF -- OF JEWISH HERITAGE THAT WAS COLLECTED IN EUROPE BEFORE THE HOLOCAUST.

IT WAS THE PRODUCT OF A -- WHAT WAS CALLED THE ONSKY EXPEDITION OF 1912 TO 1914, THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF WHICH WAS TO COLLECT AS MUCH MATERIAL ABOUT JEWISH HERITAGE OF THE 1,000-YEAR-OLD CIVILIZATION OF THE JEWS IN THE FACE OF MODERNISM, IN THE FACE OF THE THREAT OF WORLD WAR I, IN THE FACE OF ASSIMILATION.

AND -- AND SO THESE MATERIALS THAT HE RESCUED ARE OF A TREMENDOUS CONSEQUENCE TO THE JEWISH WORLD.

>> SO AS WE KNOW PUTIN HAS PRETTY MUCH DENIED THAT THERE IS A UKRAINIAN HERITAGE AND HAS ALSO TARGETED IN THIS INVASION MANY CULTURAL SITES.

WHAT IS AT STAKE?

HAS THIS ONE BEEN DAMAGED?

WHAT'S AT STAKE?

>> WELL, WHAT IS AT STAKE A TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

ONE IS THE OBVIOUS PHYSICAL VULNERABILITY OF THESE MATERIALS GIVEN THE BOMBARDMENT OF KYIV, GIVEN RUSSIA'S EXPRESS INTENTION OF DESTROYING UKRAINIAN CULTURE AND UKRAINIAN HISTORY, AND ESSENTIALLY WIPING IT OUT AS A -- AS A EUROPEAN NATION.

WHEN I WAS THERE, THEY -- THEY SHOWED ME THE READING ROOM AND POINTED ACROSS THE STREET TO WHERE A MISSILE HAD LANDED THAT BLEW OUT THE WINDOWS OF THE READING ROOM AND ALSO THE SKYLIGHT OF THE READING ROOM.

AND HAD THAT MISSILE JUST BEEN 300 FEET FARTHER, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO REASON FOR ME TO COME TO KYIV.

THESE MATERIALS HAVE NEVER BEEN MICROFILMED.

THEY'VE NEVER BEEN XEROXED.

VERY FEW SCHOLARS HAVE SEEN THEM.

THEY WERE HIDDEN DURING THE SOVIET PERIOD.

CONSEQUENTLY IF A MISSILE HITS THIS BUILDING AND WIPES THESE MATERIALS OUT, THEY ARE GONE FOREVER.

IT WILL NOT BE -- >> YEAH, I UNDERSTAND.

GONE FOREVER.

SO I WANT TO PUT UP SOME PICTURES.

SO WHEN I WAS THERE EARLIER IN DURING THE WAR I MEANT TO THE MUMERULOAND I SAW THIS INCREDIBLE PEACE OF ART HERITAGE, ESSENTIALLY ARTECTURE.

IT WAS A REPRODUCTION BY A VERY FAMOUS ARCHITECT OF WHAT A RURAL SYNAGOGUE WOULD HAVE LOOKED LIKE, YOU KNOW, SO MANY, SO MANY YEARS AGO.

AND AN EXTRAORDINARY PIECE OF WORK THERE.

AND YOU HAVE COME BACK AND WE'RE GOING TO SHOW RIGHT NOW TO OUR VIEWERS ONE OF THE MANUSCRIPTS THAT YOU BROUGHT BACK.

AND LIKELY IT'S FROM A RELIGIOUS TEXT.

TELL US ABOUT THE SYMBOLS.

TELL US ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE, WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT.

>> SURE.

WELL, THIS IS -- THIS IS SOMETHING THAT REALLY TOOK ME BY SURPRISE WHEN I SAW IT.

AS YOU SEE THERE ARE THE PRIESTLY HANDS IN THE GESTURE OF BLESSING OVER THE -- THE SACRED HOLY WORDS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE.

AT THE TOP ARE THE WORDS -- AND ABOVE THEM, HOWEVER, IS THE CROWN, A CROWN.

AND ABOVE THE CROWN IS THIS STRANGE TWO-HEADED EAGLE.

AND AT FIRST IT -- IT TOOK ME A LITTLE BIT TO RECOGNIZE WHAT THAT WAS, BUT THAT IS THE RUSSIAN IMPERIAL EAGLE.

THAT IS THE EAGLE OF RUSSIA.

AND CLEARLY THIS IS AN IMAGE WHICH IS SHOWING THE MEANS BY WHICH RUSSOIFICATION WAS BEING ENFORCED ON THE JEWISH PEOPLE OF THE SETTLEMENT BY THE CZAR.

>> SO LET ME JUST ASK YOU THEN.

FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU THINK IT CAN AND WILL SUCCESSFULLY PRESERVE THIS?

AND IN THE ENVIRONMENT, IN ANY ENVIRONMENT WE LIVE IN, HOW DO YOU SEE THE VALUE PARTICULARLY TODAY OF PRESERVING THIS HERITAGE?

>> WELL, WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY EVERY INTENTION OF PRESERVING IT.

AND THAT HAS TWO PARTS.

ONE IS THAT WE ARE GOING TO PROVIDE THE LIBRARY IN KYIV WITH ACID-FREE BOXES, ACID-FREE FOLDERS SO THAT THE MATERIALS DO NOT DETERIORATE AT THE SAME RATE AT WHICH AT LEAST THEY ARE NOW DETERIORATING.

SECONDLY, WE'RE GOING TO DIGITIZE ALL THESE MATERIALS.

AND THAT IS GOING TO REQUIRE THE PURCHASE OF EQUIPMENT AND COORDINATING THEIR DIGITIZATION TEAM OVER THERE WITH OURS IN NEW YORK CITY.

>> JONATHAN BRENT, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AND JUST BEFORE WE GO, JUST A NOTE TO TUNE IN TOMORROW FOR MY CONVERSATION WITH HOLLYWOOD MEGA-STAR ADAM DRIVER.

YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN HIM IN STAR WARS, HOUSE OF GUCCI, THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.

NOW HE'S PUTTING THE PEDDLE TO THE METAL WITH FERRARI.

I ASKED ADAM DRIVER ABOUT TAKING ON THIS ROLE AND WORKING WITH LEGENDARY DIRECTOR MICHAEL MANN.

HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT FOR YOU TO PLAY ENZO?

WHAT ABOUT HIM?

>> WELL, I FEEL THE PRESSURE WITH EVERY JOB.

THIS ONE WAS -- YOU KNOW, BECAUSE HE WAS SUCH AN ITALIAN ICON AND AN AUTOMOTIVE ICON BUT LARGELY BECAUSE IT WAS MICHAEL.

WHAT I LIKED ABOUT THE CHARACTER IS THAT MICHAEL'S VERSION OF HIM WAS THAT HE WAS A RACER FIRST.

SO HE WAS CALM ON THE SURFACE BUT HAD A CONSTANT ENGINE GOING ON UNDERNEATH.

AND WHAT I LOVE ABOUT MICHAEL AND HIS FILMS IS I FEEL LIKE THEY'RE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE.

>> YOU GET INTO ONE OF MY CARS, YOU GET IN TO WIN.

>> BUT THEY'RE NOT DUMBED DOWN WHERE HE INSULTS HIS AUDIENCE INTELLIGENCE BY TELLING THEM EVERYTHING.

YOU DO HAVE TO WORK AS AN AUDIENCE MEMBER.

IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A CHARACTER THAT'S EASILY ACCESSIBLE OR LIKABLE, WHICH I THINK IS MORE TRUE TO HOW THINGS ARE IN LIFE.

SO -- AND JUST THESE MOMENTS IN HIS FILMS THAT ARE INCREDIBLE CINEMA, JUST BEAUTIFUL MOVING IMAGES.

>> THE MOVIE IS OUT ON CHRISTMAS DAY, BUT YOU CAN WATCH OUR INTERVIEW RIGHT HERE TOMORROW.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

ST. AND IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.