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>>> NEXT, JAY EDGAR HOOVER ON THE LEADERS OF POWER DURING HIS 50 YEARS AS FBI DIRECTOR. HE ONCE WAS POPULAR BUT HOOVER'S LEGACY IS MORE AND MORE CONTROVERSIAL AND CONSIDERED AN EARLY SEEDER OF MODERN CONSERVATIVE. THE YALE HISTORIAN BEVERLY GAUGE EXAMINES IT IN AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY SHE DISCUSSES WITH MICHELLE MARTIN. >> THANKS, CHRISTIANE. PROFESSOR, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US. >> GREAT TO BE HERE. >> IT'S REMARKABLE THAT JAY EDGAR HOOVER HAD SUCH AN ENORMOUS FOOTPRINT IN AMERICAN LIFE IN THE 20th CENTURY. I MEAN, IT JUST, YOU KNOW, HIS NAME IS LITERALLY ON THE DOOR OF THE FBI HEAD QUARTERS AND YOURS IS THE FIRST MAJOR BIOGRAPHY OF HIM IN DECADES. WHY IS THAT? >> THAT DIVIDE IS ACTUALLY PART OF WHAT DREW ME TO WANT TO WRITE THE BIOGRAPHY IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND AS YOU SAY HE'S THIS HUGE HOUSEHOLD NAME. WE'RE STILL GETTING HOLLYWOOD MOVIES AND ALL SORTS OF DEPICTIONS OF HIM IN POPULAR CULTURE AND ON THE OTHER HAND, I THOUGHT WE DIDN'T HAVE A VERY UP TO DATE SERIOUS HISTORICAL EXAMINATION WHO HE WAS FOR THAT AMAZING SPAN OF 48 YEARS. THEY SPENT AS DIRECTOR OF THE FBI. >> YOUR BIOGRAPHY REALLY IS A CLICHE BUT I CAN'T HELP BUT USE IT. IT COMPLICATES THE PICTURE OF HIM. ON ONE HAND WE SEE HIM AS THIS RED ANTI COMMUNIST RACIST WHICH, YOU KNOW, HE WAS. ON THE OTHER HAND THIS LAW AND ORDER PERSON WHO REALLY PROFESSIONAL IELZED THE FBI AND BELIEVED IN STANDARDS WHAT WAS THE SOIL THAT CREATED THIS PERSON AND HOW DID HE BECOME THE PERSON HE BECAME? >> YEAH, I THINK YOU REALLY HIT ON THE POLITICAL PUS L OF THE BOOK, WHICH IS THAT ON ONE HAND, HOOVER CAME OUT OF THIS KIND OF PROGRESSIVE GOOD GOVERNMENT TRADITION THAT WAS ABOUT MODERNIZING AND PROFESSIONALIZING, WAS ABOUT EXPERTISE. WAS ABOUT BUILDING UP THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND CREATING NON-PARTISAN CAREER CIVIL SERVANTS. ALL OF THESE THINGS WE TEND TO ASSOCIATE WITH A KIND OF LIBERAL OR PROGRESSIVE FAITH IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND FEDERAL POWER AND ON THE OTHER HAND, HE WAS THIS DEVOTE AND EXTREMELY OUTSPOKEN CONSERVATIVE HIS WHOLE LIFE ON RACE, ON RELIGION, ON ANTI COMMUNISM, ON LAW AND ORDER AND SO THAT WAS JUST A REALLY FASCINATING COMBINATION TO ME BECAUSE WE DON'T SEE THOSE THINGS PUT TOGETHER THAT OF THE P IN OUR OWN TIME AND DAY BUT IN HOOVER'S PERIOD IT IS MORE COMMON BUT ALSO JUST SOMETHING THAT MADE SORT OF A SECRET OF HIS LONGEVITY AND SUCCESS IN THE GOVERNMENT. HE COULD BE LOTS OF THINGS TO LOTS OF PEOPLE. >> WHAT WAS IT THAT FORMED HIS VIEW, HIS SORT OF ANTI COMMUNIST VIEW? >> YEAH, I THINK IT'S THE BIG CENTRAL THEME OF HIS LIFE, THE STRUGGLE BETWEEN COMMUNISM AND ANTI COMMUNISM AND HE CAME TO IT VERY EARLY AS A YOUNG MAN. HE WAS BORN IN WASHINGTON D.C. AND GREW UP THERE AND AS A RESULT HE GRADUATED FROM LAW SCHOOL IN D.C. IN 1917 AND MOVED VERY QUICKLY INTO THE GOVERNMENT AND IN 1917 IS THE YEAR OF THE REVOLUTION AND SO FROM HIS FIRST MOMENT THAT HE ENTERS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, HE'S INTERESTED IN THESE ISSUES AS A VERY YOUNG MAN. HE BECOMES HEAD OF SOMETHING KNOWN AS THE RADICAL DIVISION, WHICH IS BASICALLY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S FIRST ATTEMPT TO KIND OF CONDUCT PEACETIME SURVEILLANCE OF LEFT WINGERS, COMMUNIST IN PARTICULAR AND HOLDS ON TO THAT FOR MUCH OF THE REST OF HIS LIFE. >> THE OTHER THING THAT MANY PEOPLE SUBSEQUENTLY HAVE OBSERVED IS HIS OBSESSION WITH MARTIN LUTHER KING JUNIOR. AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AT LARGE. THERE IS THIS EPISODE THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT IN THE BOOK WHICH OTHER PEOPLE HAVE KNOWN ABOUT BUT YOU REALLY AMPLIFY WHERE HE MADE A POINT OF TRYING TO LET MARTIN LUTHER KING'S FAMILY AND INNER CIRCLE KNOW ABOUT HIS EXTRA MARITAL AFFAIRS AND SENT THIS LETTER. HE DIDN'T PERSONALLY SEND IT BUT URGING KING TO KILL HIMSELF AND HIS WIFE CORETTA SCOTT KING FOUND THIS PACKAGE THEY SEEM TO HAVE KNOWN IMMEDIATELY IT CAME FROM THE FBI. WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT? >> THE KING STORY IS THE ONE OF THE SADDEST AND CRUELLEST PARTS OF HOOVER'S HISTORY WITHOUT QUESTION AND IT IS -- IT WAS OUTRAGEOUS AND DISHEARDENING TO READ ABOUT IT AND GET DETAILS THAT ARE NOW AVAILABLE FOR INSTANCE THAT ANONYMOUS LETTER THAT WENT WITH REAL RECORDINGS THEY MADE IN KING'S HOTEL ROOM OF HIS EXTRA MARITAL SEX LIFE. WHEN I WAS DOING RESEARCH IN THE ARCHIVES I CAME ACROSS THE FIRST UNREDACTED VERSION OF THAT LETTER AND IT REALLY WAS, YOU KNOW, JUST KIND OF SHOCKING AND IN MANY WAYS QUITE HORRIFYING TO READ IN ITS TOTALITY. FOR HOOVER KING CAME TO REPRESENT A CONSTELLATION OF THINGS THAT HE HAD LONG DESPISED, HAD A LOT OF ANIMOSITY TOWARD. HE HAD ALWAYS BEEN CONDUCTING SURVEILLANCE OF BLACK LEADERS, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS, HE BELIEVED THAT KING -- I THINK RIGHTLY AND WRONGLY HAD A COUPLE CLOSED A VISORS CLOSE TO THE COMMUNIST PARTY SO THAT WAS ANOTHER STRIKE AGAINST HIM AND KING CRITICIZED THE FBI WHICH IS THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO TO JAY EDGAR HOOVER AND FINALLY, AS YOU SAY, AS THIS SURVEILLANCE WIRETAPS, BUGS EXPANDED HE GOT DEEPLY INTERESTED AND DEEPLY OBSESSED WITH KING'S SEX LIFE BECAUSE HE FELT KING WAS PRESENTING HIMSELF AS THIS GREAT MORAL FIGURE, A BAPTIST MINISTER WITH THIS SECRET LIFE THAT NOBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT. PUT THOSE THINGS TOGETHER AND HOOVER PUT THIS MASSIVE SECURITY BUREAUCRACY REALLY AT WORK TO DESTROY KING IN PRETTY EXPLICIT WAYS. >> DID HE HAVE A WORLD VIEW THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SORT OF A PERMANENT SERVANT CLASS AND ANYBODY THAT CHALLENGED THAT WAS WRONG? WAS THE ORIGIN OF WHAT DOES SEEM LIKE AN OBSESSION? >> LOOKING BACK TO THE EARLY LIFE THERE WAS A COUPLE THINGS. ONE WAS IN FACT WASHINGTON D.C. ITSELF, WHICH WAS A CITY THAT WAS UNDERGOING SEGREGATION PRETTY EXPLICIT RACIAL SEGREGATION DURING THE YEARS THAT HE WAS COMING OF AGE BEGINNING IN THE 1890s AND HE WAS SHAPED BY THAT PROCESS AND THEN THE OTHER THING THAT REALLY CAME TO FACINATE ME WAS HIS FRATERNITY THAT HAD SOME OF THE COUNTRIES MOST FAMOUS SEGREGATIONISTS AMONG THOMAS DIXON WHO WROTE THE NOVELS THE BIRTH OF A NATION WAS ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS KAPPA ALPHA IN HOOVER'S OR BIT A LOT OF SOUTHERN DEMOCRATS SO YOU CAN SEE THE ORIGINS OF HIS RACIST WORLD VIEW EMERGING DURING THE VERY EARLY YEARS AND HE CARRIED THEM ON FOR A LONG TIME. >> THIS WILL BE INTERESTING TO PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN THE CONTEMPORARY FBI AND THE WAY IT HAS ADDRESSED OR NOT ADDRESSED KIND OF WHITE SUPREME -- SUPREMACIST MOVEMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES, RIGHT? HE DIDN'T LIKE THE KLAN MUCH EITHER. HOOVER DIDN'T LIKE THE KU KLUX KLAN AND DID WANT TO DISRUPT EFFORTS. TELL ME ABOUT THAT AND WHY HE FELT THAT WAY. >> THERE ARE REALLY TWO THINGS THAT TENDED TO DRAW HOOVER IN. ONE WAS THE USE OF VIOLENCE. SO HE DID NOT LIKE GROUPS OF ANY SORT THAT KIND OF TOOK THE LAW INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND ATTEMPTED TO USE EXTRA LEGAL VIOLENCE TO ENFORCE THEIR POINT OF VIEW AND THAT WAS CERTAINLY THE KU KLUX KLAN AND HE ALSO SAW THE KLAN AS DEFYING FEDERAL AUTHORITY SO PARTICULARLY ONCE THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT IS PASSED, IF YOU ALLOW THAT TO GO ON, IT'S A BIG, YOU KNOW, KIND OF THUMBING YOUR NOSE AT THE FBI ITSELF SO I THINK HE THOUGHT THAT THE LEGITIMACY OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THE LEGITIMACY OF THE FBI WAS AT STAKE IN CONTAINING GROUPS LIKE THE CLAN AND THE REALLY INTERESTING THING IS THAT MANY OF THE PRETTY EXTREME AND UNDER HANDED TACTICS THAT HE USED AGAINST KING IN THAT SAME MOMENT, HE IS ALSO DEPLOYING AGAINST THE KLAN, ANONYMOUS LETTERS, FAKE NEWSPAPER ARTICLES, INFORMANTS. >> THE COMPLICATED ISSUE I WAS FASCINATED BY, AS YOU POINT OUT THAT HE WAS ALONE AMONG PROMINENT FEDERAL OFFICIALS IN OPPOSING THE JAPANESE AFTER PEARL HARBOR. TELL ME ABOUT THAT. >> THAT IS A COUNTER INTUITIVE MOVEMENT FOR HOOVER BUT TRUE THAT HE OPPOSED AND IN FACT WAS ONE OF THE FEW FEDERAL OFFICIALS WHO DID OPPOSE MASS JAPANESE INCARCERATION AND INTERNMENT BEGINNING IN 1942 AND I THINK THAT WAS A COMBINATION OF GENUINE BELIEF IN CERTAIN IDEAS WHAT WAS CONSTITUTIONAL AND WHAT WAS NOT. HE REALLY DID GENUINELY THINK YOU COULD NOT DO THIS IN PARTICULAR TO AMERICAN CITIZENS, IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND WASN'T GOING TO STAND UP IN COURT IN PARTICULAR AND THEN HE ALSO HAD A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SELF-INTEREST IN THE WHOLE THING BECAUSE THE FBI HAD LAUNCHED ITS OWN MUCH MORE LIMITED PROGRAM AIMED AT VERY PARTICULAR JAPANESE PEOPLE THE FBI HAD DETERMINED TO BE DISLOYAL OR DANGEROUS RIGHT BY THEIR OWN STANDERS BUT ALSO GERMANS, ITALIANS OTHER CITIZENS OF BELLIGERENT NATIONS. WE TURNED YOU WHO IS DANGEROUS. WE'LL IN TURN THOSE PEOPLE BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO INTERN EVERYONE THE WAY JAPANESE DID. >> HOW DID HE STAY IN POWER SO LONG? >> THAT IN MANY WAYS IS THE GREAT QUESTION OF HOOVER'S CAREER. HE BECAME HEAD OF THE BURRO IN 1924 UNDER CALVIN AND HE STAYED THERE UNTIL HE DIED IN HIS JOB IN 1972 UNDER RICHARD NEXT SON. FOUR WERE REPUBLICANS, FOUR DEMOCRATS AND THAT ALONE SEEMS UNTHINKABLE IN THEIR OWN MOMENT. THERE WERE A COMBINATION OF THINGS THAT PRODUCED THAT ONE WAS KIND OF THE LUCK OF THE MOMENT. HE HAPPENED TO BE THERE ON THE GROUND FLOOR AND SUDDENLY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BEGAN TO EXPAND SO DRAMATICALLY IN THE '30s AND '40s AND NOT A LOT OF SAFEGUARDS OR MECHANISMS OF ACCOUNTABILITY IN PLAY. THERE WERE NO CONGRESSIONAL INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEES. THERE WERE NO LIMITS ON THE FBI DIRECTOR'S TENURE. THINGS WE HAVE BECAUSE OF HOOVER, NONE OF THOSE WERE IN PLACE AND THEN HE WAS AN INCREDIBLY BUROCRAT AND MAINTAINED AN IMAGE THAT MADE THE TRANSITIONS AND PARTICULARLY AS YOU GOT INTO THE LATER YEARS, HES WAS LUCKY BECAUSE THE LAST TWO PRESIDENTS HAPPENED TO BE PRETTY GOOD FRIENDS OF HIS BY THE TIME THEY BECAME PRESIDENT, JOHNSON AND NIXON SO AT THE MOMENT HE SHOULD HAVE REALLY RETIRED. HE HAD TWO PRETTY CLOSE PALS IN OFFICE THAT WANTED TO KEEP HIM AROUND. >> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FACT HE NEVER MARRIED AND HAD A VERY CLOSE INTIMATE IT SEEMS LIKE I DON'T KNOW, LOVING. I DON'T KNOW WHAT OTHER WORD TO USE WITH HIS CHIEF DEPUTY FOR YEARS. YOU DESCRIBE A DETAIL. THE FACT THEY TOOK THEIR BREAKFAST TOGETHER EVERY MORNING, THE FACT THAT THEY VACATION TOGETHER. BUT DO WE REALLY KNOW WHAT THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS? >> THEY WERE A FUNCTIONING SOCIAL COUPLE FOR FOUR DECADES. RESTAURANTS, VACATIONS, THE TRACK, OUTINGS IN WASHINGTON AND NEW YORK, AND LOS ANGELES AND THEN ON THE OTHER HAND IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO GET AT PARTICULARLY THE QUESTION WHETHER THEY WERE INVOLVED IN A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP. WE DON'T KNOW. IT'S CLEAR NEITHER ONE OF THEM WAS INVOLVED WITH A WOMAN AT ANY POINT IN THAT TIME BUT WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY THE NATURE OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP THERE AND THEN IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO GET AT THE KIND OF INTERIOR NATURE OF THEIR EMOTIONAL RELATIONSHIP TO EACH OTHER BUT I THINK THE EXISTING RECORD DOES HELP US GET A LITTLE CLOSER AND AS YOU SAY, IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THEY CARED DEEPLY FOR EACH OTHER, THAT IN MANY WAYS IT WAS QUITE A LOVING AND SUPPORTIVE RELATIONSHIP THAT LASTED ALONG LONGER THAN A LOT OF PEOPLE'S RELATIONSHIPS DO. OF COURSE, THE OTHER PARADOX IN THERE IS THAT WHILE THEY WERE INVOLVED IN THIS VERY PUBLIC RELATIONSHIP, THEY WERE ALSO INVOLVED IN POLICING AND PERSECUTING OTHER PEOPLE BASED ON THEIR SEXUAL LIVES AND SEXUAL IDENTITIES AND SEXUAL ACTIVITIES. AND SO ALL OF THAT IS JUST THIS BIG STEW AND IT ALL EXISTED AT THE SAME TIME AND THAT'S THE CHALLENGE OF BEING A BIOGRAPHER IS LETTING PEOPLE BE A LITTLE MESSY AND CONTRADICTORY SOMETIMES. >> I'D LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU HOW HOOVER SHAPED THE COUNTRY BECAUSE OF HIS LONG TEN INJURY AT THIS CRITICAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY IN TERMS OF THE REACH AND ITS REACH INTO DETAILS OF AMERICAN LIFE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN MAJOR, YOU KNOW, BOTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND SOCIAL JUSTICE KIND OF MOVEMENT AND EPISODES IN AMERICAN LIFE AND THE FBI HAS A BIG IMPACT. I GUESS THE QUESTION REALLY IS NOT JUST HOW HOOVER SHAPED THE FBI BUT HOW HIS LEADERSHIP OF THE FBI HELPED SHAPE THE COUNTRY. >> WITH HOOVER, I THINK WE STILL SEE IN TODAY'S FBI YOU KNOW A LOT OF HIS IMPACT BOTH IN A REAL TRADITION OF KIND OF PROFESSIONALIZED EXPERT SERVICE. WE HAD A VISION OF THE FBI AS YOU SAY AS KIND OF THE MODEL POLICE AGENCY FOR THE COUNTRY. I THINK THE FBI STILL HOLDS ON TO SOME OF THAT IDENTITY INTERNALLY AND ALSO HAS A DEEPLY CONSERVATIVE INTERNAL CULTURE AT FBI WHICH IS ALSO PARTLY A PRODUCT OF THE HOOVER ERA SO WE'RE STILL LIVING WITH THAT. WHAT DREW ME TO THINK ABOUT HOOVER IS NOT THE VAST SWATH OF HIS CAREER BUT THE FACT THAT FROM THAT POSITION OF POWER, HE WAS ABLE TO SHAPE AND I THINK IN MANY WAYS CONTAIN EVERY MOVERMENT FOR SOCIAL PROGRESS, AROUND RACE, AROUND CIVIL RIGHTS, AROUND LABOR, A WHOLE HOST OF FACTORS, THE ANTI WAR MOVEMENT, THE NEW LEFT OF THE 1960s, YOU KNOW, NONE OF THOSE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME WITHOUT JAY EDGAR HOOVER AT THE HELM AND I THINK IN MANY WAYS, YOU KNOW, HE BUILT THE SECURITY AGENCY AND HE USED IT TO REALLY POLICE THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS LEGITIMATE IN AMERICAN DEMOCRACY. >> ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK AND I THINK THIS IS WORTH REMEMBERING IS THAT HE WASN'T SOME ROGUE ACTOR. I MEAN, HIS VIEWS WERE COMMONLY HELD. WAS HE LEADING THE COUNTRY IN THOSE VIEWS OR JUST A REFLECTION, WAS HE MAINLY A REFLECTION OF THE VIEWS OF A LOT OF PEOPLE AT THE TIME AND HAPPENED TO HAVE A LAW ENFORCEMENT APPARATUS THAT KIND OF MAINTAINED THOSE GUARD RAILS? WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT SM. >> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. I GOT ALL SORTS OF INTERESTING DETAILS ABOUT CHASES AND INVESTIGATIONS, MAYBE THE MOST SURPRISING THING IN THE WHOLE BOOK IS THE FACT THAT HOOVER WAS SO POPULAR, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WE TEND TO FORGET, RIGHT? WE TEND TO SEE HIM AS THIS VILLAIN OR THIS ROGUE ACTOR BUT IN FACT, HE WAS MASSIVELY POPULAR FOR PUBLIC OPINION POLLS AND HE WAS INCREDIBLY WIDELY SUPPORTED IN WASHINGTON ITSELF. AGAIN, AMONG BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS AND SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT HIS HISTORY AND LEGACY, I THINK WE DO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT TELLS US ABOUT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AND NOT SIMPLY SAY HOOVER WAS THIS MAN WHO DID THESE BAD THINGS BUT IN FACT, HE COULD ISN'T HAVE DONE THEM WITHOUT THIS WIDE SPREAD SUPPORT AT MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS. >> PROFESSOR BEVERLY GATES, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US. >> THANKS A LOT.