Amanpour and Company

>>> HOW OFTEN DO YOU CHECK YOUR PHONE?

MAYBE YOU'RE ON IT RIGHT NOW, I HOPE NOT.

MORE AND MORE PEOPLE FIND PAYING ATTENTION A REAL STRUGGLE IN THIS WORLD WHICH IS DOMINATED BY DISTRACTION.

HOW DOES A LACK OF FOCUS AFFECT OUR SOCIETY AND POLITICS?

AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST CHRIS HAYES DIGS INTO THAT IN HIS NEW BOOK, THE SIREN'S CALL.

HE TELLS US WHAT HE HAS FOUND.

>> CHRISTIANE , THANKS.

THE RECENT BOOK HERE, THE SIREN'S CALL, HOW ATTENTION BECAME THE WORLD'S MOST ENDANGERED RESOURCE.

WE HAVE HEARD THIS AGE CALLED THE DIGITAL AGE, DATA IS THE NEW OIL, YOU'RE ARGUING ATTENTION IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, WHY?

>> I THINK THAT WE ARE ALL FAMILIAR WITH THE IDEA THE DIGITAL AGE, INFORMATION AGE, THE IMPORTANCE OF INFORMATION AND DATA WHICH IS TRUE, INFORMATION DATA ARE ESSENTIAL TO THE ECONOMIC PRODUCTION AND SOCIAL LIFE WE LIVE.

THE THING ABOUT INFORMATION AND DATA, IT IS BOUNTIFUL, ESSENTIALLY INFINITE AND CHEAP BECAUSE OF THAT.

THERE MIGHT BE 10 OR 100 FIRMS THAT HAVE YOUR DATA AND TO YOU, IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT MUCH TO AFFECT YOUR LIFE.

THE THING THAT MAKES ATTENTION SUCH AN IMPORTANT RESOURCE IS, ONE, INFORMATION CONSUMES IT.

THE MORE INFORMATION THERE IS IN YOUR ENVIRONMENT, THE HARDER IT IS TO FOCUS.

INFORMATION CONSUMES ATTENTION.

TWO, ATTENTION IS BOUNDED AND FINITE, IT CAN BE IN ONE PLACE OR ANOTHER.

IF 100 FIRMS HAVE YOUR DATA, IT MAY NOT AFFECT YOUR DAY-TO-DAY LIFE.

IF SOMEONE HAS YOUR ATTENTION AT A GIVEN MOMENT, ON A CROWDED SUBWAY CAR OR AT YOUR KIDS' SCHOOL AND SOMEONE STARTS SCREAMING, SIREN COMES DOWN THE STREET OR BABY CRIES ON A PLANE, THAT TAKES YOUR ATTENTION AWAY FROM YOU.

THE FINITUDE OF THAT RESOURCE IS THE THING EVERYONE IS COMPETING FOR.

BECAUSE IT IS AT A FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL HARDWIRED TO GIVE TO SOME, MAKES IT INTENSE VALUE.

>> THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH TIME IN A DAY THAT I HAVE, I CANNOT CREATE MORE TIME.

AS MORE THINGS COMPETE FOR THAT TIME, MY ATTENTION BECOMES MORE VALUABLE THE MORE SOCIAL MEDIA, TV CHANNELS, EVERYTHING ELSE THAT EXIST OUT THERE, THAT COMPETITION MAKES THAT MILLISECOND EVEN MORE LUCRATIVE .

>> EXACTLY.

WHAT IS INTERESTING, IT BOTH HAS A MARKET PRICE OUTSIDE OF US AND THERE IS A WEIRD THING ABOUT ITS VALUE.

IN THE AGGREGATE, WHEN POOLED OVER 1 BILLION USERS LIKE TIKTOK, META HAVE, UNPRECEDENTED FORTUNES.

THE SECOND YOU'RE UNLOADING INSTAGRAM REAL, FRACTIONS OF PENNIES.

IT IS ACTUAL MARKET PRICES, NOTHING BUT TO YOU, IT IS THE MOST PRECIOUS THING YOU HAVE SPEED IN THE BOOK, YOU GO BACK TO A LITTLE BIT OF PSYCHOLOGY AND BIOLOGY AND YOU POINT OUT, THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF ATTENTION.

THERE IS THE KIND THAT I VOLUNTARILY WANT TO GIVE, AND VOLUNTARY, SOCIAL ATTENTION, EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE.

>> ONE OF THE TRICKIEST THINGS ABOUT ATTENTION IS WE DO HAVE THIS COMPULSORY ASPECT TO IT.

IF THE SIREN COMES DOWN THE STREET, A WAITER DROPPED THE GLASS IN A RESTAURANT, YOU DON'T GET A SAY OVER WHETHER YOUR ATTENTION IS DRAWN TO IT, IT IS DRAWN TO IT PRE- CONSCIOUSLY, COMPELLED INVOLUNTARY ATTENTION.

THAT FACULTY IS VERY POWERFUL BECAUSE THE EVOLUTIONARY ORIGIN OF HEARING THE PREDATOR RUSSELL THE BUSHES OR THE SOUND OF DANGER.

THE VOLUNTARY ATTENTION THAT WE WANT TO PAY AND THE BATTLE BETWEEN THOSE TWO THINGS.

ONE OF THE THINGS ARGUED IN THE BOOK, COMPETITIVE ATTENTION MARKETS TEND TO DRIVE TOWARD COMPELLED ATTENTION, WHICH IS GLARING INTERRUPTION.

CASINO FLOORS, TIMES SQUARE, THE TABLOIDS SUPERMARKET COUNTER, YOU HAVE COMPETITIVE ATTENTION SPACE, THEY ARE TRYING TO COMPEL YOU AWAY.

ON TOP OF THAT, THERE IS THE FACT THAT WE AS HUMANS CAN BE PAID ATTENTION TO AND THAT HAS A PARTICULAR DROP ON WHAT WE PAY ATTENTION TO .

IF YOU HEAR YOUR NAME AT A PARTY, IT WILL DRAW YOUR ATTENTION, EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT FOCUSED ON THE CONVERSATION, THEY COULD BE TALKING FOR A MINUTE AND YOU HEARD LITERALLY NOTHING THEY SAID BEFORE AND SUDDENLY YOUR NAME, THIS IS ACTUALLY A FINDING IN THE EXPERIMENTAL LITERATURE, YOUR NAME AND YOUR NAME ALONE WILL DRAW YOUR ATTENTION LIKE A SIREN OR A BABY CRYING OR GLASS SHATTERING.

SPEED I WILL SAY YOUR NAME EVERY TIME NOW SO THAT YOU NOT TALKING TO YOU.

THIS HAS BEEN THE PURVIEW OF NEWSPAPER EVER SINCE THEY EXISTED, EVERYONE TRYING TO BE THE TOWN CRIER, SOMEONE WOULD STAND AT THE MIDDLE OF THE SQUARE WITH THE TOLL, HERE YOU CAN HEAR YOU, THE NEWS OF THE DAY.

WHAT IS SO DIFFERENT ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO US NOW VERSUS THIS, IS IT THAT INCREASE OF THE COMMODIFICATION, DECREASE OF OUR TIME?

WHAT IS HAPPENING?

>> IT IS A GREAT QUESTION, I SHOULD NOTE THAT YES, A LOT OF CONTINUITY, IT IS POWERFUL.

MARK ANTONY IN JULIA SEASON, FRIENDS, COUNTRYMEN, LEND ME YOUR EARS, GETTING YOUR ATTENTION FOR IMPORTANT THING, PERSUADE THE CROWD TO BACK HIM IN THE WAKE OF CAESAR'S DEATH.

THERE'S CONTINUITY, VERY POWERFUL RESOURCE BUT WHAT IS DIFFERENT IS THAT UBIQUITY, THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE SMART PHONE IN 2007 MEANT THAT WE SUDDENLY HAD A PORTAL AT ALL TIMES.

THE SUM TOTAL OF ATTENTION GRABBING CONTENT EVER CREATED BY HUMANS ON THE PLANET OVER THE COURSE OF HISTORY.

AT ALL MOMENTS, THERE'S A COMPETITION OF EVERYTHING EVER MADE FOR YOUR ATTENTION.

THAT IS PRETTY UNPRECEDENTED.

SECOND, THE SOCIAL ASPECT.

MOVIES ACTUALLY CAN'T TALK TO YOU, TV SHOWS CAN'T TALK TO YOU BUT THE INTERNET PLATFORMS CAN.

YOU CAN SEE WHAT YOUR MENTIONS AND TAGS ARE, THEY ARE WORKING OFF OF THE INDIVIDUALIZED FORM OF SOCIAL ATTENTION THAT GRABS YOUR NAME AT THAT COCKTAIL PARTY AT SCALE ENGINEERED TO MAKE YOU PAY ATTENTION.

THAT IS ALSO NEW.

THIRD IS BECAUSE OF THE EFFECT OF OVERWHELMING INFORMATION AND THE PRIVACY OF IT TO OUR ECONOMIC SOCIAL INSTITUTIONAL AND POLITICAL LIVES, THERE IS MORE SCARCITY, LIKE I SAID AT THE BEGINNING.

THE COMPETITION IS FIERCE THERE AND BEING EXTRACTED AND MONETIZED AT A GLOBAL SCALE IT NEVER WAS BEFORE.

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANYONE TALKING TO 2 BILLION PEOPLE THE WAY THAT META AND BYTEDANCE ARE.

>> WHAT YOU POINT OUT WITH THE BOOK, I SEE SO MANY PARALLELS TO THE ULTRA PROCESSED FOOD INDUSTRY AND HOW WE SEEM TO BE SO MUCH MORE ADDICTED TO SUGAR.

HOW DO YOU TRY TO GET SOMETHING LIKE ATTENTION BACK?

>> I'M GLAD THAT YOU POINT TO THE FOOD ANALOGY OR PRECEDENT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS THE CLOSEST ONE HERE.

IN THE SAME WAY WE HAVE CERTAIN BIOLOGICAL INHERITANCES, WE LIKE SALT, FAT, SUGAR, YOU RELEASE LARGE GLOBAL CAPITALISM ON THAT PROBLEM, IT WILL GIVE YOU COCA-COLA AND FRIES.

YOU CAN SELL IT ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

THE THING ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS, THEIR TASTES ARE ALMOST TOO DIVERSE TO CHARACTERIZE, THEY WILL EAT A MILLION DIFFERENT THINGS BECAUSE OF HOW IMPOSSIBLY COMPLICATED HUMANS ARE IN TERMS OF CULTURE AND CUISINE AND HISTORY.

THE SAME IS TRUE FOR ATTENTION, WE HAVE TWO CELLS, THE CELLS COMPELLED BY THE CASINO FLOOR, TIMES SQUARE.

THEN THERE ARE THE PARTS OF PEOPLE THAT GO TO EIGHT HOUR OPERAS AND WATCH FOUR HOUR PODCAST.

IT IS AMAZING, PEOPLE BUY AND READ BOOKS.

WHAT AN AMAZING THING, PEOPLE BUY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MILLIONS WILL DO THIS.

THE QUESTION IS, HOW DO WE CULTIVATE MARKET STRUCTURES, GOVERNMENT REGULATION, SOCIAL AND CYNIC LIFE TO CULTURE THE DIVERSITY OF OUR ATTENTION AS OPPOSED TO THE FLATTENING?

THE FOOD EXAMPLE IS REALLY GOOD.

WE HAVE SEEN A REVOLUTION OF THE LAST 30 OR 40 YEARS AWAY FOOD MARKETS WORK, THE RISE OF ORGANIC FOOD AND FARM TO TABLE, AND FARMERS' MARKET.

MOVING AWAY FROM THE ULTRA PROCESSED CASSEROLES AND JELL-O SALADS OF THE LATE 1970s AND 1980s THAT ARE ALMOST PUNCHLINE.

WE HAVE REALLY SEEN THROUGH ALL DIFFERENT NEEDS, CULTURAL, SOCIAL, REGULATORY, LEGAL, ORGANIZING ACTIVISM, A REVOLUTION ON HOW WE RELATE TO FOOD.

I THINK WE'RE AT THAT POINT IN ATTENTION AS WELL.

>> HOW TO BUILD AN ATTENTION MARKET WITH SIMILAR OUTCOMES?

>> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK THAT HOW MARKETS ARE STRUCTURED MATTERS, MONETIZED OR NOT.

GROUP CHATS ARE GREAT EXAMPLE OF PART OF THE DIGITAL LIFE THAT I REALLY LIKE.

THEY ALLOW ME TO STAY CONNECTED TO PEOPLE I DON'T LIVE NEAR, THAT I'VE KNOWN A LONG TIME.

I LIKE WHEN MY ATTENTION IS ON THEM BECAUSE I'M TALKING TO MY FRIENDS.

CRUCIALLY, NO ONE IS MONETIZING MY ATTENTION IN THE GROUP CHAT AREA >> YET.

>> YET.

THIS IS A KEY THING, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SPACES THAT ARE FUNDAMENTALLY NONCOMMERCIAL AND SPACES THAT ARE COMMERCIAL.

THERE ARE VERSIONS OF DIGITAL LIFE ON THE INTERNET THAT DON'T HAVE TO BE COMMERCIAL.

IN FACT, WE HAD AN OPEN WEB BEFORE WE WERE DOMINATED BY THE WEB 2.0 PLATFORMS WHERE OPEN PROTOCOLS, PODCASTS ARE GREAT EXAMPLES THAT EVERYONE LOVES, THE PHRASE, WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCAST, SPEAKS TO THE FACT THAT PODCAST EXISTS ON OPEN INTERNET ARCHITECTURE WERE THERE NOT COMMERCIALLY BOUND BY A PLATFORM ATTEMPTING TO MONETIZE YOUR ATTENTION.

THEY HAVE GIVEN RISE TO THIS INCREDIBLE VERSION.

REBUILDING THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE INTERNET AROUND NONCOMMERCIALLY ENCLOSED PLATFORMS ATTEMPTING TO MONETIZE ATTENTION.

I THINK THERE'S REAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LAW AND REGULATION AND GETTING SERIOUS ABOUT REGULA AND HOW ATTENTION IS EXTRACTED FROM HIS AUNT WHO IT IS EXTRACTED FROM.

>> WHAT HAPPENS TO OUR ECOSYSTEM AND LANDSCAPE?

YOU ARE A PERSON WHO HAS BEEN ON THE PLATFORM, AT LEAST 10 YEARS, HOW DOES A PROGRAM LIKE YOURS AND NETWORK LIKE OURS STAY RELEVANT?

>> IT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

ONE THING TRIP ATTENTION AGE, EASIER TO GRAB ATTENTION THAN TO HOLD ATTENTION.

THAT IS UNIVERSAL TRUTH, ASK ANY PERSON YOU MEET TO WALK INTO A ROOM OF 500 PEOPLE AND GET THEM AND ASK THEM, YOU CAN USE ANY TOOL YOU NEED TO GET EVERYONE'S ATTENTION, THEY COULD PROBABLY DO IT.

YOU TELL THEM TO GIVE A TALK FOR AN HOUR THAT HELD THEIR ATTENTION FOR AN HOUR, THAT IS A LOT HARDER.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE TRY TO DO IS BALANCE ARE INTENTIONAL POWERS, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT CABLE NEWS, WITH ANOTHER SET OF VALUES.

THE WAY TO THINK ABOUT ATTENTION IS A MEANS TOWARD AN END TO THAT END WE ARE TRYING TO GET TO IS EDUCATE PEOPLE, ENLIGHTEN THEM, GIVEN THE TOOLS FOR SELF-GOVERNANCE AND CIVIC FLOURISHING.

THE ATTENTION IS A MEANS TO DO THAT.

WHAT HAPPENS IN COMPETITIVE ATTENTION MARKETS, ATTENTION IS THE MEANS THAT END AND OF ITSELF, THAT IS THE THING BEING SOLD.

I THINK THAT HAVING PLACES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE OTHER IMPERATIVES IS REALLY IMPORTANT WHATEVER GENRE THEY ARE WORKING IN.

PEOPLE DO AWESOME STUFF ON TIKTOK AND AMAZING PODCAST, AMAZING STUFF ON SHORT FORM VIDEO AND ON YOUTUBE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE DOING AMAZING WORK AT ALL THOSE PLACES AND THE REASON THEY'RE DOING AMAZING WORK IS BECAUSE THEY ARE HAVE SOMETHING THERE TIME TO DO OTHER THAN GETTING PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

>> SHOULD WE, COLLECTIVELY AS A SOCIETY, TRY TO MODERATE THIS IN SOME WAY?

IT SEEMED LIKE MOST OF THE PEOPLE THAT RUN SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS ARE ALL TOO HAPPY TO GO TO CAPITOL HILL AND TELL THE SENATORS TO THEIR FACES, PLEASE REGULATE US KNOWING THAT NOTHING WILL HAPPEN OR EVEN IF SOMETHING HAPPENS, IT WILL BE SO LATE AND LONG THAT TECHNOLOGY AND USER PATTERNS CHANGE AND I WILL MAKE A FEW BILLION IN BETWEEN.

>> THEY WILL SAY, PLEASE REGULATE US, BUT IF YOU TRY TO DO THINGS LIKE PUT ON AGE CAPS, THEY FIGHT IT SO YES, THEY WANT TO CHOOSE THEIR OWN REGULATORS AND REGULATION.

I THINK YOU NEED BOTH REGULATION AND ALTERNATIVES.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF REGULATING ATTENTION IN SOME WAY WHETHER THAT IS ESSENTIALLY A HARD LIMIT ON SCREEN TIME, STATUTORY LIMIT, IN PEOPLE'S HEADS, THAT IS INSANE AND MOST JOURNALISTIC THING.

PEOPLE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT ABOUT MAXIMUM HOURS AT A CERTAIN POINT.

THAT IS THE LOCHNER DECISION, FAMOUS SUPREME COURT DECISION IS ALL ABOUT.

IF NEW YORK SAYS, YOU CAN ONLY WORK 55 HOURS A WEEK, IS THAT PATERNALISM OR PROTECTING SOMETHING ESSENTIAL ABOUT YOU?

DOES THE CONSTITUTION NOT THAT LAW DOWN?

IT IS WORTH THINKING ABOUT THAT FOR ATTENTION TO I ALSO THINK THAT YOU CAN'T DO THAT UNLESS YOU ARE ALSO NURTURING ALTERNATIVES THAT ARE OPEN PLATFORM CIVIC ALTERNATIVES.

BECAUSE THERE ARE WAYS THAT WE COULD COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER, VIDEO DOES NOT HAVE TO EXIST INSIDE YOU TO.

THERE ARE WAYS TO HAVE OPEN PLATFORMS IN WHICH PEOPLE CAN DO THINGS.

TO COME BACK TO PODCASTS, IT IS SO STRIKING TO ME THAT THIS EMERGED AS A DOMINANT FORM WHEN IT IS THE ONE THAT RELIES ON THE OPEN PLATFORM.

I DO THINK THERE'S A CONNECTION TO IT, THERE'S A CONNECTION BETWEEN CREATIVITY AND THE OPENNESS OF THE PLATFORM.

>> YOU ARE ROLLING THIS BOOK OUT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, I WONDER, HAVING WATCHED THE ELECTION AND ENTIRE POLITICAL RUN-UP TO IT SO CLOSELY OVER THE PAST DECADE, WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT THE SELECTION AND PERHAPS, ON WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID WELL THAT THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD LEARN FROM IF THEY WANT TO HAVE A CHANCE AT RUNNING AGAINST HIM OR THE PARTY WITH ANYBODY ELSE?

>> THERE'S A CHAPTER IN THE BOOK ABOUT PUBLIC ATTENTION, IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE, I TALKED QUITE A BIT ABOUT TRUMP WHAT I SAY IS, HE HAS KIND OF ONE SIMPLE TRICK AND INSIGHT INTO ATTENTION WHICH IS SIMPLY THAT, IN THE ATTENTION AGE, WHEN ATTENTION IS MORE VALUABLE THAN EVER, GETTING IT AND THE QUANTITY OF IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHETHER IT IS POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE.

HE IS ALMOST WITHIN ANY POLITICIAN I'VE SEEN, WILLING TO GET NEGATIVE ATTENTION, CONTROVERSY, RAGE, PROTESTS, IF HE IS GETTING ATTENTION.

THE FIRST MOMENT WHEN HE SAID, JOHN McCAIN, I LIKE PEOPLE THAT WERE CAPTURED.

THAT WAS A VERY ATTENTION- GETTING STATEMENT.

THAT HAS BEEN THE M.O.

MOST POLITICIANS DON'T LIKE THAT.

MOST POLITICIANS, IF THE OPTION IS I GOT AND GET ATTENTION THAT IS NEGATIVE OR I GET NO ATTENTION, I WOULD TAKE THE LATTER.

I DON'T WANT NEWS, KEEP MY HEAD DOWN.

I THINK THAT HE HAS SHOWN, OPTIMIZE THE ATTENTION AGE, ELON MUSK AS WELL, IS THAT ATTENTION DOMINATION IN POLITICS IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT .

IT MIGHT BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN FINE GREAT MESSAGING, MORE IMPORTANT THAN ADVERTISING.

AND THAT YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO TAKE DOWNSIDE RISK TO GET IT .

MAYBE YOU TAKE SOME OF THAT RISK ON BUT AS PT BARNUM SAID, AS LONG AS YOU SPELL MY NAME RIGHT.

>> HOW ABOUT HIM IN A SINGULAR WAY, THERE BEEN POLITICIANS, EVEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THAT TRIED TO TAKE THAT ROUTE -- >> AND IT DID NOT WORK .

>> NO.

>> DONALD TRUMP IS EXCEPTIONAL IN SOMEHOW THREADING THIS NEEDLE VERSUS IF YOU'RE WRITING A PLAYBOOK FOR THE DEMOCRATS IN THREE YEARS, WHAT DO YOU TELL THEM?

>> IT IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT BECAUSE IT IS REALLY TRUE.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY, ESSENTIALLY KNOCK OFF REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES, THAT HAVE LOST IMMINENTLY WINNABLE RACES, BEING OUTRAGEOUS AND POLARIZING AND OF NOXIOUS AND HIGH NEGATIVES AND LOSING RACES THEY SHOULD'VE WON.

KARI LAKE, HERSCHEL WALKER, DR. OZ, ON AND ON.

A WHOLE BUNCH OF THEM, ONE OF THE STORIES OF THE TRUMP ERA, TRUMP MANAGES TO PULL IT OFF AND TRUMP LIKE CANDIDATES DO MUCH WORSE THAN -- REPUBLICANS.

THERE IS A REAL TRADE-OFF THERE .

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS ARE DIFFERENT THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT IS THE PLACE WHERE ATTENTION IMPERATIVES ARE AT THEIR MOST COMPETITIVE AND MOST IMPORTANT.

I THINK THAT ALSO, TRUMP IS ABLE TO PULL IT OFF BECAUSE OF SOMETHING PARTICULAR AND GENUINE AND AUTHENTIC TO WHO HE IS.

AT THE CORE OF HIS BEING, HE NEEDS THAT ATTENTION AND HE ISN'T FAKING IT.

THAT IS ANOTHER PART OF HIS APPEAL, A CERTAIN PERSONALITY LIKE ELON MUSK, WHO IS PULLING OFF THE SAME TRICK.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "SIRENS' CALL", THE WORLD BECAME THE MOST ENDANGERED RESOURCE, HOST OF PODCASTS AND TV SHOW, ATTENTION GRABBER EVERYWHERE, CHRIS HAYES ON PBS.

>> I APPRECIATE IT, THANK YOU.