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>>> NOW, CONGRESS IS BROKEN, SO SAY STAFFERS AND ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES WHO ARE QUITTING MID-TERM.

A RECENT SURVEY BY THE NONPROFIT CONGRESSIONAL MANAGEMENT FOUNDATION FOUND THAT A LARGE MAJORITY OF SENIOR STAFFERS BELIEVE THE LEGISLATIVE BODY IS JUST NOT FUNCTIONING, AND THE POLARIZATION AND RHETORIC ARE CAUSING THEM TO WANT TO LEAVE THEIR JOBS.

CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR CHARLIE SYKES JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE GREAT RESIGNATION.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

CHARLIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> YOU STARTED WRITING ABOUT CONGRESSIONAL RESIGNATIONS BACK IN 2021.

WHAT DID YOU NOTICE THEN?

>> WELL, WHAT I NOTICED THEN WAS A NUMBER OF THE RISING STARS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, PEOPLE WHO HAD RELATIVELY SAFE SEATS, WHO WERE LOOKING AROUND, SAYING, I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THIS.

YOU HAD SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAD LONG CAREERS AHEAD OF THEM IN CONGRESS, AND I THINK DECIDED THAT THIS IS NOT WORTH IT FOR THEM, THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO SPEND THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS SITTING IN A CAUCUS WITH THE PEOPLE WHO WANTED CHAOS, WHO WERE MORE INTERESTED IN PROMOTING THEMSELVES THAN ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING, AND, OF COURSE, THIS WAS NOT THE BEGINNING OF THE GREAT RESIGNATION, DEPARTURE, BRAIN DRAIN, BUT IT'S BEEN ACCELERATING, PARTICULARLY AMONG RETURNS.

>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, AMONG MIDTERM RESIGNATIONS, THERE HAVE BEEN SIX REPUBLICANS, ALSO TWO DEMOCRATS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

IT'S EASY TO NORMALIZE A LOT OF THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN POLITICS, BE YOU THE NUMBER OF -- NUMBERS OF CONGRESS THAT ACTUALLY ARE RESIGNING AND SOME OF THEM, SOME OF THE YOUNGER MEMBERS LIKE MIKE GALLAGHER FROM WISCONSIN, RESIGNING IN SUCH A WAY AS TO MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE THEM REPLACED IN THIS PARTICULAR TERM, IS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

AND I THINK IT'S REALLY AN INDICATION OF JUST HOW MUCH DECISION ILLUSIONMENT THERE IS, THAT THEY DON'T EVEN WANT TO SERVE THROUGH THEIR TERM.

WHAT MAKES IT EVEN MORE INTERESTING IS THAT EACH OF THESE RESIGNATIONS SHRINKS THE REPUBLICAN MAJORITY.

THE REPUBLICAN MAJORITY WAS RAZOR THIN TO BEGIN WITH, BUT NOW, AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING, IS DOWN TO ONE VOTE.

THIS CREATES A REALLY DIFFICULT, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE DILEMMA FOR THE LEADERSHIP, AND YOU HAVE TO THINK THAT SOME OF THE REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO RESIGNED KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING, AND SO, THEY WERE SENDING A MESSAGE RATHER DRAMATICALLY.

>> YOU KNOW, THE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, WHO IS KIND OF AT THE ROOT OF A LOT OF THIS, HE, IN A SORT OF SERIES OF KIND OF TIRADES ON EASTER SUNDAY, TOOK SPECIAL NOTICE OF MIKE GALLAGHER AND ALSO ANOTHER -- ANOTHER MEMBER, KEN BUCK, WHO ALSO DECIDED TO RETIRE, SAYING, NEVER FORGET OUR COWARDS AND WEAK LINGS, SUCH A DISGRACE.

SO, NOT A NEW PHENOMENON TO PERSONALLY VILIFY PEOPLE WHO DON'T SERVE HIS INTERESTS.

BUT DO YOU -- TELL US WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT MIKE GALLAGHER, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK WENT INTO HIS DECISION?

>> WELL, MIKE GALLAGHER WAS ONE OF THE FEW GENUINE RISING STARS IN THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

NOW, THERE WERE MOMENTS WHEN HE DISAPPOINTED ME, YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, ON JANUARY 6th, HE TAPED A YOUTUBE APPEAL TO DONALD TRUMP TO CALL OFF THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT THESE WERE THE PRESIDENT'S SUPPORTERS.

BUT THEN HE BACKED OFF AND DID NOT SUPPORT IMPEACHMENT AND DID NOT BECOME A NEVER TRUMPER, WENT ALONG WITH THE EXCOMMUNICATION OF LIZ CHENEY, BUT HAVING SAID THAT WAS A SUBSTANTIVE GUY.

HE WAS SORT OF IN THE MOLD OF A PAUL RYAN TYPE OF REPUBLICAN, YOUNG, POLICY-ORIENTED, AND IS AN INDICATION OF THE WAY HIS COLLEAGUES THOUGHT ABOUT HIM, THEY NAMED HIM THE CHAIRMAN OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON CHINA, WHERE HE HAD A VERY, VERY HIGH PROFILE POSITION.

MIKE GALLAGHER WAS ONE OF THOSE YOUNG REPUBLICANS WHO COULD HAVE BEEN IN CONGRESS FOR ANOTHER 40 YEARS.

HE'S UNDER 40 YEARS OLD.

HE COULD HAVE BEEN THERE A VERY LONG TIME.

HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A FUTURE SPEAKER.

AND YET, HE LOOKED AROUND HIM AND SAID, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE.

THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS PLACE.

AND HE RESIGNED.

NOW, AGAIN, THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO TRIED TO APPEASE THE TRUMPIST WING OF THE PARTY.

HE TRIED TO GO ALONG.

HE TRIED TO RIDE THAT TIGER.

HE SUPPORTED KEVIN McCARTHY.

HE WENT ALONG WITH ALMOST EVERYTHING THE REPUBLICANS WERE DOING UP UNTIL HE COULDN'T ANYMORE, AND THEN HE DECIDED, HE'S OUT OF THERE.

AND THE WAY HE LEFT WAS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

IT WAS A BIG SHOCK THAT HE DECIDED NOT TO RUN FOR RE-ELECTION.

AND IT WAS AN EVEN BIGGER SHOCK THAT HE WAS RESIGNING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TERP, BUT THE REAL TWIST WAS THAT HE RESIGNED IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT'S TOO LATE TO HOLD A SPECIAL ELECTION TO FILL HIS SEAT IN WISCONSIN, WHICH MEANS THERE'S NO WAY THAT REPUBLICANS CAN REPLACE HIM, SO IT WAS -- IT WAS REALLY QUITE SOMETHING FOR SOMEBODY WHO WAS A RISING STAR, AND IN MANY WAYS, A TEAM PLAYER, AND UNDERLIES, I THINK, YOU KNOW, TWO THINGS, THE LEVEL OF FRUSTRATION AND DISGUST, BUT ALSO THE ONGOING BRAIN DRAIN OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> DEMOCRATS ARE LEAVING, TOO, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, 30 DEMOCRATS, 24 REPUBLICANS, EITHER RETIRING OR SEEKING OTHER OFFICE.

DO YOU HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S ALSO REFLECTING THE FACT THAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH A CONGRESS THAT IS BROKEN.

AND IT'S NOT JUST MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

YOU'LL SEEING NEW STUDIES OF SENIOR STAFFERS WHO ARE SAYING THAT THEY ARE CONTEMPLATING LEAVING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, CONGRESS IS NO LONGER REALLY A FUNCTIONAL BODY.

AND IF YOU WENT INTO POLITICS, OR YOU WENT INTO GOVERNMENT BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO SOLVE PROBLEMS, BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO PASS LEGISLATION, YOU'RE LOOKING AROUND AND SAYING, AH, THIS IS NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

THE INCENTIVE STRUCTURES MATTER.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GET INTO TOPICS FOR LOTS OF REASONS, BIG EGOS.

THERE ARE PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT PUBLIC POLICY, BUT THE INCENTIVE STRUCTURE NO LONGER PUSHES THEM TOWARDS RESPONSIBLE LEGISLATION.

IT REWARDS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE MOST EXTREME, THE LOUDEST, WHO -- WHO PLAY TO SOCIAL MEDIA HITS.

AND I THINK THAT FOR A CLASS OF POLITICIANS, THEY LOOK AROUND AND GO, OKAY, THIS IS NOT WHAT I THOUGHT, THIS IS NOT WHAT I GOT INTO POLITICS, I WANT TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

SO, THE NUMBERS -- AND IT'S NOT JUST THIS TERM.

IF YOU LOOK BACK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING, FOR EXAMPLE, TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, SPECIFICALLY, SINCE DONALD TRUMP CAME ON THE SCENE, IT'S REALLY BEEN A VERY DRAMATIC TURNOVER.

YOU LOOK AT THAT CLASS THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, THE CLASS FROM, SAY, 2017, I DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, BUT THE ATTRITION HAS BEEN INCREDIBLE.

SO, YOU'RE SEEING A TURNOVER NOT JUST A GENERATIONAL TURNOVER, BUT A CULTURAL TURNOVER IN THE KINDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN CONGRESS NOW, AND WILL BE IN CONGRESS PROBABLY FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL DECADES.

>> JUST TO PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE FOR A MINUTE, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT ARGUE THAT REALLY THE GENERATIONAL PIECE OF THIS IS THAT YOUNGER PEOPLE, THE GEN-X ERES, THE POSTBABY BOOMERS -- IT'S A GENERATIONAL SORT OF ETHOS THAT, IF THIS ISN'T SATISFYING, I'M OUT.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME COMMITMENT TO INSTITUTIONS THAT THEIR PREDECESSORS HAD.

>> THERE'S PART OF THAT, BUT I DON'T THINK IT ACCOUNTS FOR THIS DRAMATIC TURNOVER.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, ANY GROUP OF FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMEN, YOU'LL FIND THEY COME FROM A DIFFERENT POLITICAL TRADITION.

IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF AGE.

IT'S ALSO A MATTER OF CULTURE, IT'S A MATTER OF WHAT THEY THINK THE ROLE OF CONGRESS SHOULD BE.

SO, I DO THINK THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO SEPARATE OUT THIS SORT OF VAST DEPARTURE FROM CONGRESS, FROM THE INSTITUTIONAL DECAY THAT WE'RE SEEING HERE.

GRIDLOCK MAY BE ENTERTAINING FOR THE ENTERTAINMENT WING OF THE MEDIA, BUT BEING IN THE MINORITY, BEING IN CONGRESS CAN BE VERY FRUSTRATING.

PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU HAVE A CONGRESS THAT DOESN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING.

SO, IF YOU'RE A MEMBER -- IN YOU'RE A BACK BENCHER IN CONGRESS, YOU MAY SIT ON A COMMITTEE, BUT SINCE LEGISLATION NO LONGER GOES THROUGH REGULAR ORDER, YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE ANY SAY, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CLOUD.

YOU HAVE THE PRESTIGE, YOU ARE THE GOOD SALARY, YOU HAVE THE BENEFITS, AND IN THE PAST, THAT'S BEEN ENOUGH TO KEEP PEOPLE AROUND FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

NOW, I THINK THE FRUSTRATION LEVEL, THE HYPER PARTISANSHIP, THE THREATS, THE INSULT, THE TOXICITY OF THE ENVIRONMENT, JUST IS DRIVING PEOPLE OUT.

AND I DON'T THINK YOU CAN OVERSTATE THE FACT THAT, IF YOU GO TO WORK EVERY DAY WITH TOXIC NARCISSISTS, IT'S GOING TO WEIGH ON YOU.

AND AT A CERTAIN POINT, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO -- I WOULD LOVE TO BE A CONGRESSMAN, I WOULD LOVE TO BE A CONGRESSMAN FOR THE NEXT 20, 30 YEARS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE DEALING WITH TOXIC NARCISSISTS IN AN INSTITUTION THAT IS SO FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN, AS THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IS.

>> AND WHO ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

WHO ARE THESE TOXIC NARCISSISTS?

>> I DON'T THINK ANY OF THE NAMES ARE GOING TO BE TERRIBLY SURPRISING.

I'M TRYING TO IMAGINE BEING A SERIOUS REPUBLICAN MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND LOOKING AROUND, THINKING, SO, I HAVE TO SPEND THE NEXT TWO YEARS SITTING NEXT TO MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN AND MATT GAETZ AND LAUREN BOEBERT AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE, IN THE PAST, YOU KNOW, LOUIE GOHMERT AND PAUL GOSAR?

THE FOLKS THAT GENERALLY GARNER THE ATTENTION, AND THAT HAVE, FRANKLY, BEEN SPONSORED BY THE PARTY LEADERSHIP.

LOOK.

THE FACT IS, THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN A CHAOS CAUCUS.

THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN A SMALL GROUP OF UNSERIOUS PEOPLE.

JOHN BOEHNER CALLED, I THINK HIS TERM FOR THE FREEDOM CAUCUS, THEY WERE LEGISLATIVE TERRORISTS.

BUT IN THE PAST, THERE WAS A BEEN ABLE TO ISOLATE THEM.

NOW, THAT'S NO LONGER THE CASE.

AND THEY HAVE THE COVER OF THE LEADER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, DONALD TRUMP, WHO HAS BEEN ENCOURAGING AND PROMOTING SOME OF THE MOST EXTREME VOICES.

AND AS LONG AS THAT'S THE CASE, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE USED TO CALL THE GROWNUPS IN THE ROOM, OR, THE NORMIES, NO LONGER ARE ABLE TO CHECK THEM.

>> I'M IN WASHINGTON, FOR BETTER OR WORSE, AND, YOU KNOW, I CONSTANTLY HEAR MY COLLEAGUES WHO ARE UP ON THE HILL FULL-TIME, OR MOST OF THE TIME, SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY KNOW BETTER.

THAT'S, LIKE, THE -- THE OPERATIVE PHRASE, THEY KNOW BETTER, OR, THEY DON'T REALLY BELIEVE HALF THE STUFF THEY'RE SAYING.

IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHY DON'T THE PEOPLE WHO DID GO THERE TO LEGISLATE GET TOGETHER AND DO THEIR JOB?

>> WELL, OCCASIONALLY, THEY DO, WHICH IS WHY THE GOVERNMENT HASN'T SHUT DOWN, BUT THIS HAS BEEN THE STORY OF THE LAST SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS IN OUR POLITICS, THAT YOU HAVE -- PEOPLE WHO KNOW BETTER WHO ARE SIMPLY AFRAID TO TAKE THAT STAND.

FEAR IS -- IS A HUGE FACTOR IN MODERN POLITICAL POLITICS.

THEY'RE AFRAID OF DONALD TRUMP, THEY'RE AFRAID OF THE BASE, THEY'RE AFRAID OF MEAN SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS.

ALSO, JUST KEEP IN MIND, THROUGH THE RECENT HISTORY OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, YOU HAD JOHN BOEHNER WHO WAS A VERY, VERY SKILLED LEGISLATOR, WHO ULTIMATELY WAS NOT ABLE TO -- WHO RESIGNED, BECAUSE HE WAS NOT ABLE TO KEEP CONTROL OF THE -- OF THE CHAOS CAUCUS.

PAUL RYAN HAD A HUGE MAJORITY TO WORK WITH AND YET HE ULTIMATELY DECIDED THAT HE NEEDED TO LEAVE, AS WELL.

NOW WE HAVE PEOPLE LIKE KEVIN McCARTHY, IT FEELS LIKE -- KEEP STEPPING DOWN.

YOU HAD KEVIN McCARTHY WHO LASTED LESS THAN A YEAR, AND THE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON CURRENTLY HAS VERY LITTLE LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE.

AND I THINK THAT'S ON DISPLAY.

SO, HE NOT ONLY HAS LITTLE OR NO LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE, BUT HE HAS LITTLE OR NO MARGIN FOR ERROR ANY LONGER.

HE'S SEEN WHAT'S HAPPENED TO KEVIN McCARTHY, AND NOW, AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING, HE'S GOT A ONE-VOTE MARGIN, SO -- HIS ABILITY TO GET THINGS DONE IS EXTREMELY LIMITED, IT ONLY TAKES A SMALL NUMBER, IT ONLY TOOK EIGHT REPUBLICANS TO THROW THE HOUSE INTO CHAOS FOR PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE YEAR.

I MEAN, HARRY TRUMAN BACK IN 1948 RAN AGAINST THE DO NOTHING REPUBLICAN CONGRESS, THAT CONGRESS LOOKS LIKE A LEGISLATIVE JUGGERNAUT COMPARED TO THIS CONGRESS, IN PART BECAUSE THEY SPENT SO MUCH TIME FIGHTING WITH THEMSELVES.

SO, NOW WE COME TO THIS MOMENT WHERE, IF MIKE JOHNSON WANTS TO GET ANYTHING DONE, HE ESSENTIALLY HAS TO ENGAGE IN A COALITION GOVERNMENT.

HE HAS TO RELY ON DEMOCRATIC VOTES.

AND THE NUMBER ONE CARDINAL SIN FOR THE REPUBLICAN BASE RIGHT NOW IS COMPROMISING WITH DEMOCRATS, WORKING WITH DEMOCRATS, GIVING DEMOCRATS ANYTHING LIKE A WIN.

SO, IT IS A RADIOACTIVE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT FOR THE SPEAKER, WHO HAS TO FIND SOME WAY TO LIMP THROUGH THIS YEAR UNTIL THE NEXT CONGRESS.

>> I MEAN, HE HAS BEEN WILLING TO NEGOTIATE WITH DEMOCRATS IN ORDER TO KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OPEN.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE'S DONE THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT IS THE BARE MINIMUM TO KEEP THE LIGHTS ON.

BEFORE WE HAND OUT, YOU KNOW, PROFILES IN COURAGE HERE, THIS IS THE BARE MINIMUM FOR HIM TO DO THAT, BECAUSE THERE'S REALLY NO ALTERNATIVE.

I THINK THAT THE CHAOS SURROUNDING KEVIN McCARTHY MIGHT HAVE DAMPED DOWN THE APPETITE FOR CHAOS, BUT ONLY TEMPORARILY, BECAUSE THE CHAOS IS NOW BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM.

AND SO, WE HAVE THIS WEIRD SITUATION -- YOU REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN, ONE OF THE MOST DEMAGOGUES IN THE HOUSE, ACTUALLY SUPPORTED KEVIN McCARTHY.

SHE WAS, FOR A MOMENT, SUPPORTING THE REPUBLICAN ESTABLISHMENT.

WELL, NOW, SHE IS -- SHE MAY BE LEADING THE EFFORT TO OUST THE CURRENT SPEAKER, WHO WOULD THEN NEED DEMOCRATIC VOTES.

YOU CAN'T MAKE UP THIS SCENARIO.

IT IS SORT OF A GAME OF THRONES WITHOUT ALL THE BLOOD.

AND SO, WE'RE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, BUT IN TERMS OF GETTING ACTUAL SUBSTANTIVE LEGISLATION THROUGH, THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION.

WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.

>> BUT WHEN IT COMES TO SOMEBODY LIKE A MIKE GALLAGHER, A KEN BUCK.

IF YOU ARE WILLING TO RESIGN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TERM, THAT MEANS YOU'RE WILLING TO LOSE YOUR JOB, RIGHT?

IF IT WAS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU, TO HOLD ON, NO MATTER WHAT, YOU'D MAKE CERTAIN COMPROMISES.

SO, THAT'S WHY I REMAIN CONFUSED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE RESIGNING RATHER THAN FIGHT.

IF YOU DON'T CARE WHETHER YOU LOSE YOUR JOB, WHY NOT STAY AND FIGHT?

>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT I WOULD HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW, DECIDE WHAT IT IS THAT IS MOST VALUABLE TO YOU, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, AID TO UKRAINE OR PERHAPS GETTING A RATIONAL IMMIGRATION BILL PASSED, I THINK IT'S ALWAYS BETTER TO STAY IN THE FIGHT.

I THINK THAT WHAT'S HAPPENED, THOUGH, THEY REALIZE IT'S HOPELESS.

THERE'S NO WAY THAT IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

THIS CONGRESS IS NEVER GOING TO BECOME FUNCTIONAL.

I DO NOT WANT TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE DEALING WITH THESE TOXIC DEMAGOGUES.

AND I THINK THE EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE LIKE LIZ CHENEY AND ADAM KINZINGER IS INSPIRING, BUT IT'S ALSO A CAUTIONARY TALE.

IT ALSO SAYS, IF YOU STAY IN THE FIGHT, YOU'RE GOING TO BE KILLED.

YOU'RE GOING TO BE EXILED.

AND UNDERSTAND FOR THE MODERN REPUBLICAN TO BREAK WITH THE PARTY THE WAY, SAY, A LIZ CHENEY HAS DONE, IS NOT JUST LOSING YOUR JOB.

IT MEANS YOU ARE BEING EXCOMMUNICATED AND EXILED FROM YOUR ENTIRE POLITICAL SOCIAL WORLD.

AND I THINK THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE SOMETIMES UNDERESTIMATE.

THAT IN OUR TRIBAL CULTURE, IT'S NOT JUST LOSING THE WORD JOB AN YOUR POSITION, IT'S ALL OF THE SOCIAL CONTACTS.

YOU KNOW, YOUR FAMILY, AND PEOPLE ASK ME THIS QUESTION, WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE BREAK?

WELL, IF YOU ARE WILL BE TO GIVE UP YOUR ENTIRE COMMUNITY, THEN, YOU KNOW, THEN FINE.

MOST PEOPLE AREN'T.

THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO ALIENATE THEMSELVES FROM THEIR FAMILY, THEIR FRIENDS, THEIR PROFESSIONAL CONTACTS.

YOU BREAK WITH THEM TOO STRONGLY, YOU WILL HAVE NO FUTURE IN LOBBYING, NO FUTURE IN ELECTED OFFICE, BUT ALSO, NO FUTURE AS A -- AS AN INFLUENCER IN THE PARTY.

YOU WILL NO LONGER HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE.

>> ALL RIGHT, WELL, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, IS THERE ANYTHING GIVING YOU HOPE IN THE CURRENT MOMENT?

>> I THINK ABOUT THE ONLY THING THAT GIVES ME HOPE IS THAT AT A CERTAIN POINT, THESE THINGS EXHAUST THEMSELVES.

NOW, I'VE BEEN SAYING THAT FOR EIGHT YEARS, AND I THINK THERE'S BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF WISH CASTING THAT, OF COURSE, THE FEVER WILL BREAK, THE FIRE WILL BURN ITSELF OUT.

I THINK WE'VE GOT A WAYS TO GO HERE.

I ALSO HAVE -- AND MAYBE IT'S NAIVE AT THIS POINT, BUT A SENSE OF THE INNATE DECENCY AND REASONABLENS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

THAT YOU GET AWAY FROM POLITICS, YOU GO TO A LITTLE LEAGUE GAME OR A SOCCER GAME, YOU GO TO A PLAY OR A CONCERT, YOU TALK TO YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS, AND THEY'RE NOT AT EACH OTHER'S THROAT.

THEY'RE NOT BELIEVING THE CRAZIEST THINGS.

RIGHT NOW, OUR POLITICS IS BRINGING OUT THE WORST IN US.

AT SOME POINT, MAYBE THE BEST OF US WILL BE ABLE TO PUSH BACK AGAINST IT, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ANY TIME SOON.

>> CHARLIE SYKES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.