Amanpour and Company

>>> TURNING NOW TO A NEW DOCUMENTARY INVESTIGATING THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA. LEAVE NO TRACE EXPOSES 82,000 CLAIMS OF SEXUAL ABUSE AGAINST THE YOUTH ORGANIZATION WITH FIRSTHAND ACCOUNTS FROM SURVIVORS. DIRECTOR IRENE TAYLOR AND FORMER BOY SCOUT STUART LORD JOINED HARI SREENIVASAN TO SUCCESS THE CENTURY-LONG COVER-UP. A NOTE, THAT THIS CONVERSATION CONTAINS ACCOUNTS OF ABUSE WHICH MAY BE DIFFICULT FOR SOME TO HEAR. >> IRENE TAYLOR, STUART, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. WHY DO THIS FILM ABOUT SCOUTING? HOW INTEGRAL HAS SCOUTING BEEN IN AMERICAN LIFE AND MORE SPECIFICALLY YOUR FAMILY? >> I THINK SCOUTING IS PART OF OUR AMERICAN FABRIC. I MEAN, THERE IS A WHOLE MYTHOLOGY AROUND WHAT A GOOD SCOUT IS. IT'S PRACTICALLY USED TO DESCRIBE IT'S SYNONYMOUS WITH INTEGRITY. I HAVE THREE SONS CHTS TWO WERE SCOUTS. IT WAS A BIG PART OF MY FAMILY. WE WOULD GO ON OUTINGS TOGETHER. I DIDN'T KNOW IT AT THE TIME, I LIVE IN OREGON, BUT IT TURNED OUT OUR COUNSEL HERE IN MY LOCAL AREA OF PORTLAND, OREGON, HAD A STRONG HISTORY, A DARK HISTORY I WASN'T AWARE OF. >> STUART LORD, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHY DID YOU JOIN SCOUTING AND WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU? >> WELL, I JOINED SCOUTING AS -- I WAS 11 YEARS OLD. I JOINED WHEN THEY RECRUITED BOYS AT MY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. I JOINED BUS I WANTED TO BE OUTDOORS. I GREW UP IN NEW ROCHELLE, NEW YORK, AND SCOUTING ALLOWED ME AN OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE, TO REALLY DEVELOP AS A LEADER, BEING A PATROL LEADER AND LEADING OTHER BOYS AND WAS A WAY FOR ME TO BE ACTIVE AS A YOUNG PERSON. SO I BENEFITTED A LOT FROM SCOUTING. I ALSO WAS HARMED BY SCOUTING. BEGINNING AROUND 11 YEARS OLD UNTIL I WAS 18, I WAS ABUSED, CERTAINLY ABUSED BY MY ASSISTANT SCOUTMASTER AND OTHER PEOPLE HE INTRODUCED ME TO. >> I, MYSELF, WAS A BOY SCOUT AND EAGLE SCOUT. THE FIRST ONE OF THE SCOUT LAWS, SKOUT IS TRUSTWORTHY. HOW MUCH DID TRUST HAVE TO PLAY WITH HOW THESE MEN WERE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOU? >> YES, A SCOUT IS TRUSTWORTHY AND OTHER THINGS THAT DEVELOP CHARACTER. SO I TRUSTED MY SKOUT MASTER. MY SCOUTMASTER MET MY MOM AND REALIZED I DIDN'T HAVE A FATHER AND ASKED MY MOM IF HE COULD SORT OF, YOU KNOW, BECOME THAT SURROGATE FATHER. HE USED TO CALL HIMSELF MY DAD SOMETIMES. AND SO THERE WAS -- WHEN HE INTR INTRODUCED HIMSELF TO MY NOM MOM, SHE SAID, YEAH, I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO PAY ATTENTION TO STUART, AND THAT RESULTED IN HIM TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME AND GROOMING ME AND I TRUSTED HIM AND HE ALSO THREATENED ME, BUT I STILL TRUSTED HIM BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY I LEARNED TO TRUST ADULTS AND AUTHORITY. HE WAS ANOTHER ADULT THAT I TRUSTED. >> IRENE, THIS WAS NOT LIMITED TO A SPECIFIC TROOP OR A COUNCIL OR CITY. YOUR DOCUMENTARY GOES AND LOOKS AT THE DOCUMENTS AND FINDS THAT THIS HAPPENED ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES. HOW DO WE KNOW EXACTLY HOW MANY CHILDREN WERE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF? WHO KEPT THE RECORDS? >> THE BOY SCOUTS KEPT THE RECORDS. THEY CALLED THEM INTERNALLY THE PERVERSION FILES. AND I THINK THAT TELLS YOU A LOT RIGHT THERE, MORE FORMALLY THEY WERE CALLED THE INELIGIBLE VOLUNTEER FILES. THE CONCEPT BEHIND THEM WAS THAT THEY WOULD KEEP A RECORD OF MEN WHO WERE NOT SUITABLE TO BE SCOUT LEADERS. WE KNOW THAT THESE RECORDS GO BACK AT LEAST TO THE 1930s. WE EXSUSPECT THEY WENT BACK EARLIER THAN THAT. THE BOY SCOUTS ACKNOWLEDGED IN THE EARLY 1930s THEY HAD THESE FILES. THEY CALLED THEM THEIR RED FILES AT THE TIME. AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT WHEN WE STARTED MAKING THE FILM SHORTLY AFTER THEY ANNOUNCED THEIR BANKRUPTCY A COUPLE OF YEARS BACK, WE KNOW THAT THE LAWYERS INVOLVED AT THE TIME THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE MAYBE 7,000, 10,000, MAYBE 12,000 MEN OR BOYS AND GIRLS WHO WOULD COME FORWARD WITH ALLEGATIONS OF ABUSE AS PART OF THE BANKRUPTCY CASE. WELL, LO AND BEHOLD, EIGHT MONTHS LATER, THAT NUMBER WAS 82,000. SO THAT'S 82,000 MEN, BOYS AND GIRLS WHO SAY THAT THEY WERE ABUSED AT THE HANDS OF SOMEONE WITHIN THE SCOUTING ORGANIZATION. NOW, DOES THAT MEAN THAT THERE ARE MORE OUT THERE? IT DOESN'T TAKE A HUGE IMAGINATION TO IMAGINE THAT THERE ARE. IT'S VERY HARD FOR MEN. IT'S VERY HARD FOR ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN SEXUALLY TRAUMATIZED TO COME FORWARD AND TALK ABOUT IT, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS THE PRESSURE OF A DEADLINE AND THERE WAS A LEGAL DEADLINE FOR THIS BANKRUPTCY BY WHICH YOU HAD TO FILE YOUR CASE. >> I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP HERE ON HOW WIDESPREAD THE ABUSE WAS. >> WHAT WE SAW WAS TROOP LEADERS BEING FOUND TO HAVE ABUSED CHILDREN AT ONE TROOP, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, HERE THEY ARE POPPING UP A YEAR LATER AT ANOTHER TROOP IN A DIFFERENT STATE, AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. SO IT WAS JUST REALLY CLEAR PHYSICAL EVIDENCE THAT THEY HAD KNOWN FOR DECADES AND DECADES THAT THESE MEN WERE ASSAULTING THESE BOYS. ON THIS ONE LEVEL, THEY IS A PHENOMENAL JOB OF TRACKING THEM, AND THEN ON THE OTHER HAND COMPLETELY DROPPED THE BALL ON MAKING SURE THAT THEY COULDN'T AND WOULDN'T ABUSE OTHER CHILDREN IN THE PROGRAM. WHAT THE HELL ELSE WOULD THE FILES BE FOR? >> STUART, WHEN YOU SEE THAT AND YOU REALIZE THIS WAS AN ORGANIZATION THAT WAS WORKING ALMOST TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE THAT HURT CHILDREN, THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT YOU. >> YES. IT SADDENS ME TO KNOW THAT THE BOY SCOUTS WERE SO CONCERNED AT PROTECTING LEADERS AND NOT PROTECTING YOUNG MEN AND YOUNG BOYS WHO WERE GROWING AND TRUSTED THE SCOUTING, AND IT'S AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY WHAT HAPPENED. TO THINK BACK AS A YOUNG PERSON GROWING UP THAT NO ONE HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH ME AS A YOUNG PERSON ABOUT SAFETY AND ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG WHEN IT COMES TO BEING SEXUALLY ABUSED BY SOME OF THE SCOUTMASTERS. >> I WANT TO READ A PART OF THE STATEMENT FROM THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA. IT SAYS WHILE ANY INSTANCE OF ABUSE IS ONE TOO MANY, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF CLAIMS FILED IN THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION CHAPTER 11 CASE RELATE TO ALLEGATIONS OF ABUSE THAT OCCURRED BEFORE OUR MODERN YOUTH PROTECTION POLICIES WERE IMPLEMENTED IN THREE DECADES AGO. I HOPE IT DEMONSTRATES THAT WE TAKE YOUTH PROTECTION EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY. IRENE, I WANT TO FOLLOW UP WITH THAT, THAT STATEMENT. THE FILES THAT CAME UP IN THE LAWSUIT, THAT'S NOT ALL OF THEM. AND YOUR DOCUMENTARY MENTIONS THERE WERE A LARGE NUMBER OF CLAIMS THAT CAME AFTER THE SCOUTS PUT THESE YOUTH PROTECTION POLICIES IN PLACE. >> THAT'S RIGHT. AND I THINK THAT THE BOY SCOUTS HAVE MISSED A NUMBER OF OPPORTUNITIES TO STRENGTHEN THE BARRIERS FOR THESE MEN TO GET INTO THE ORGANIZATION. AND THEY THEY ARE REALLY TRYING TO LOOK FORWARD. THE ORGANIZATION IS TRYING TO LOOK FORWARD. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE OBSERVED. BUT, YOU KNOW, THOSE 82,000 MEN AND BOYS AND GIRLS, THEY HAVE TROUBLE LOOKING FORWARD BECAUSE THEY KEEP LOOKING BACK. THIS IS THE REALITY OF SEXUAL TRAUMA. AND I THINK THAT THERE IS A LOT OF IT -- THERE IS A LOT OF RECKONING THAT NEEDS TO TAKE PLACE WITH THE ORGANIZATION AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I HOPE WITH THIS FILM THAT WE CAN DO IS JUST HAVE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IT. >> I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP OF TWO YOUNG MEN, CHILDREN, THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO PROFILE FOR THIS FILM. >> YOU WANTED TO BE A POLICE OFFICER. AND HE WAS TOLD THAT GOING THROUGH THE SCOUTS AND EVERYTHING WOULD BE THE BEST WAY TO DO IT. SO THAT WAS HIS GOAL. >> SHE HEARD STORIES OF ME TELLING WHAT IT WAS LIKE WHEN I WAS A SCOUT. >> YEAH, I WANTED THAT FOR CHRIS. >> I THRIVED INTO IT. >> THEY LET NATHAN JOIN IN EVERY NOW AND THEN. >> NATHAN WAS A MASCOT. >> YEAH. >> CHRIS HAD BEEN GOING THROUGH SUCH A HARD TIME, AND DOUG KEPT TRYING TO -- CHRIS CAN STAY WITH ME. WE THOUGHT THAT WAS NORMAL. HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KNOW? WE DIDN'T KNOW. WE HAVE A CHILD MOLESTER TELLING US WHAT THE RULES WERE ARE, ACCORDING TO HIM THERE ARE NONE. >> WHEN THOSE PARENTS FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT BOY THERE WAS A SCENE IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THEY ARE HEARING ABOUT IT BECAUSE THE YOUNG MAN NEVER SPOKE ABOUT IT TO THEM. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S PROBABLY THE CASE FOR LOTS OF VICTIMS. >> MY WAY INTO THIS FILM WAS I MET A SOCIAL WORKER WHOSE FULL-TIME JOB MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY, EIGHT HOURS A DAY, WAS TO INTERVIEW SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL ABUSE AT THE HANDS OF A SCOUTMASTER. FULL-TIME SQUOB. JOB. AND SHE TOLD ME THAT MOST OF THE MEN SHE SPOKE WITH WERE TELLING SOMEONE FOR THE FIRST TIME. SHE SAID PEOPLE IN THEIR 80s AND EVEN IN THEIR 90s WERE CALLING HER ABOUT ABUSE THAT OCCURRED IN THE 1940s. JUST LAST WEEK MY PRODUCING PARTNER, THE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER WHO WORKED ON THE FILM WITH ME, WE GOT AN EMAIL FROM A GENTLEMAN WHO IDENTIFIED HIMSELF, TOLD US HE WAS 84 YEARS OLD, AND SAID THAT HE WAS ABUSED IN THE 1950s BY HIS SCOUTMASTER AND THAT SO MANY OF THE STORIES IN OUR FILM, WHICH HAD CHILDREN AS YOUNG AS 14, AND A MAN AS OLD AS 74, HE SAID THEIR STORIES RESONATED EXACTLY WITH HIS OWN EXPERIENCE AND HE SAID THAT AT THAT TIME IN THE 1950s HE WAS TOLD AS A YOUNG BOY IF HE WANTED TO GET AHEAD IN THE BOY SCOUTS HE WOULD FOLLOW HIS SCOUTMASTER'S WISH. >> STUART, HOW DID THIS EFFECT YOU IN ALL THE YEARS BETWEEN WHEN YOU SUFFERED AT THE HANDS MUCH A PEDOPHILE AND UNTIL YOU FINALLY TALKED ABOUT IT? >> WELL, GROWING UP AS A YOUNG PERSON, I GREW UP HAVING TO BE SILENT. I GREW UP HAVING TO LIVE TWO LIVES. I DIDN'T FEEL SAFE TO TELL ANYONE. WHEN I GOT THE COURAGE TO TELL SOMEONE, MY MOTHER, MY FOSTER MOTHER, SHE DIED. AND SO I HAD TO KEEP THIS BURDEN INSIDE OF ME. IT MADE ME ANGRY. I FELT ALONE. I WAS AFRAID OF THE DARK. I WAS AFRAID OF MY HOUSE THAT I GREW UP IN. UNTIL I WENT AWAY TO COLLEGE. AND SO, YOU KNOW, I GREW UP ANGRY. I GREW A FEELING THAT I WAS IN THE WORLD ALONE SOMETIMES. AT THE SAME TIME, I HAD A COMMUNITY FROM MY CHURCH. AND SO I WAS IN AND OUT OF BOTH WORLDS, TWO WORLDS, LIVING TWO LIVES. YOU KNOW, THERE WERE MOMENTS THAT I THOUGHT I WAS DYING DID I THINK ABOUT SUICIDE? OF COURSE I THOUGHT ABOUT SUICIDE. AND BUT BECAUSE I WANTED TO HONOR MY FOSTER MOTHER AND WHAT SHE HAD DONE FOR ME, I HAD TO BUILD MY LIFE AND LIVE A LIFE AWAY FROM MY ABUSERS. AND SO I REALIZED THAT I NEEDED TO GET HELP. I NEEDED TO GET SOME COUNSELING AND YOU I NEEDED TO AVAIL MYSELF TO NAVIGATE AND LIVE ONE LIFE. AND SO SPEAKING OUT AND GETTING COUNSELING AND PARTICIPATING IN EIGHT-HOUR SESSIONS. I'M STILL IN COUNSELING. AND I MAY COME ACROSS AS IF I'M TOGETHER, BUT I AM A HEART WARRIOR. SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN THROUGH A WAR OF INTERNAL STRIFE AND KNOWING THAT TRUE HAPPINESS COMES FROM HELPING OTHERS, IS ONE OF MY MANTRAS THAT HELPS ME NAVIGATE MY ABUSE AND BEING ABLE TO BE AVAILABLE FOR OTHERS. >> STUART, DO YOU EVER WONDER ABOUT HOW YOUR LIFE WOULD BE IF THIS HAD NOT HAPPENED TO YOU? >> YEAH. I OFTEN THOUGHT ABOUT THAT LITTLE STUART INSIDE OF ME, THAT LITTLE BOY WHO WAS 11, 12, 13, HAD IT NOT HAPPENED TO THAT PERSON. HOW MUCH FREER, YOU KNOW, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DANCED MUCH MORE FREER. I WOULD HAVE RUN, NOT HAVING TO LOOK BACK. AND I WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, I OFTEN TALK TO THAT PERSON AND I TELL MYSELF, BECAUSE STUART, IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT AND YOU ARE NOT ALONE. AND SO THAT LITTLE BOY WHO WASN'T, YOU KNOW, WHO WAS ABUSED, IF HE WASN'T ABUSED, WOULD HAVE HAD A CHILDHOOD. MY CHILDHOOD WAS STOLEN FROM ME. AND SO, YEAH. >> IRENE, WHERE ARE THE BOY SCOUTS NOW WHEN IT COMES TO -- AS AN ORGANIZATION, FINANCIALLY, MEX MEMBERSHIPWISE? >> WELL, JUST IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS AND IN THE LAST MONTH THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS ARTICLES ABOUT COUNCILS AROUND THE COUNTRY STARTING TO SELL OFF LAND. WHAT THE SCOUTS ARE GOING TO NEED TO DO IS LIQUIDATE THEIR ASSETS TO PAY THEIR DEBTS, EFFECTIVELY. THE BANKRUPTCY IS STILL IN PROCESS. SO I THINK WE ALSO KNOW THEIR MEMBERSHIP HAS BEEN STEADILY DECLINING SINCE THE 1970s AND IT'S AT AN ALL-TIME LOW NOW. SO I THINK THEY ARE CLEANING HOUSE, SO TO SPEAK. BUT IT'S REALLY UNKNOWN AT THIS POINT WHAT DECISIONS THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE STILL THOUSANDS OF PERVERSION FILES HAVE NOT BEEN RELEASED AND THE SURVIVORS WHO ARE A PART OF THIS 82,000 HAVE VOTED AND THE MAJORITY OF THEM DO WANT THE SCOUTS TO RELEASE THOSE FILES AND THE SCOUTS HAVE NOT AGREED TO DO THAT. THE SCOUTING ORGANIZATION HAS NOT ALLOWED -- HAS NOT BEEN WILLING TO DO THAT. AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE A VERY POWERFUL MESSAGE FOR THEM TO DEMONSTRATE TO AMERICA AND TO SURVIVORS THAT IF THEY RELEASE THOSE FILES, THAT IS THEIR WAY OF LOOKING BACK AND ACKNOWLEDGING WE STILL HAVE MORE LOOKING BACK TO DO BECAUSE THE MEN WHO ARE, HAVE ABUSERS IN THOSE FILES, THOSE FILES WILL BE VERY MEANINGFUL ON THEIR OWN JOURNEY TOWARDS HEALING. AND IT ALSO, REMEMBER, SOME OF THESE PERPETRATORS ARE OUT THERE RIGHT NOW. RIGHT NOW. SO WE CAN ALSO STOP THOSE PERPETRATORS FROM ACCESSING MORE BOYS AND GIRLS NOW. >> STUART, I HEARD YOU SAY THAT YOU CHOSE TO SPEAK OUT NOT IN AN EFFORT TO DESTROY SCOUTING, THAT YOU HAVE IN SOME WAYS REACHED A LEVEL OF FORGIVENESS. I WONDER WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THE SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL ABUSE WHO HAVE NOT COME FORWARD, WHO ARE STILL STRUGGLING, WHO MIGHT BE IN THE SAME PLACE YOU WERE 15, 20 YEARS AGO? >> SO I SAY TO THE SURVIVORS THAT IF YOU HAVE BEEN THREATENED, THEN YOU COULD STILL COME FORWARD BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL BELIEVE YOU. AND THAT YOU ARE NOT ALONE. THERE IS ONE IN SIX BOYS WHO EXPERIENCED CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE BEFORE THE AGE OF 18. AND TO REACH OUT FOR HELP, TO SEEK COUNSELING, TO BE ABLE JUST TO BE ABLE TO SAY, FIRST OF ALL, THAT I HAVE BEEN ABUSED. AND DECIDE HOW MUCH OF THE STORY YOU ARE GOING TO TELL. I WISH THAT EVERY BOY SCOUT AND EVERY YOUNG PERSON AND PARENT WOULD WATCH THIS FILM TO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION, TO REALIZE THAT BREAKING THE SILENCE CAN FEEL WORST THAN THE ABUSE ITSELF. BUT TAKE YOUR SMALL STEPS. SEEK THERAPY. SEEK COUNSELING. BEGIN THIS LONG JOURNEY WITH A TRUSTED FRIEND. >> STUART LORD AND IRENE TAYLOR, THE FILM IS CALLED "LEAVE NO TRACE" AVAILABLE ON HULU NOW. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. >>> WE REACHED OUT TO THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA FOR COMMENT ON THE HOULULU FILM AND THE CALLS M A MAJORITY OF SURVIVORS TO RELEASE FILES. WE HAVE NOT HEARD BACK.