Amanpour and Company

>>> NOW, DR. ANTHONY FAUCI SAYS THE U.S. IS IN A DIFFERENT PHASE OF THE PANDEMIC, BUT THERE ARE WARNINGS OF A SUMMER SURGE. LOOKING TO LEARN FROM THE PAST TWO YEARS AND PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE IS BILL GATES. HE TELLS WALTER WHY WE SHOULD TREAT PANDEMICS LIKE FIRES. >> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND BILL GATES, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW. >> GREAT TO BE HERE. >> YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK OUT ABOUT HOW TO PREVENT THE NEXT PANDEMIC. IT BEGINS BY SAYING, HEY, WE GOT TO LEARN THE LESSONS FROM THE PAST PANDEMIC. WHAT DID WE LEARN FROM THE COUNTRIES THAT HANDLED THIS WEAL? >> WELL, A FEW RESPONDED QUICKLY TO SCALE UP THE LEVEL OF DIAGNOSTICS, AND THEN THEY HAD QUARANTINE POLICIES THAT WERE WELL-ADHERED TO. SO AUSTRALIA STANDS OUT, AND THEIR DEATH RATE IS ABOUT 10% OF OTHER RICH COUNTRIES. >> IF YOU TOTALLY LOCKED DOWN BECAUSE OF PEOPLE TESTING POSITIVE AND MAKE THEM ALL QUARANTINE, CERTAINLY THAT HAPPENED IN CHINA, BUT NOW CHINA IS IN A TOTAL MESS BECAUSE OF THAT. >> WELL, CHINA NEEDS TO GET THEIR VACCINATION RATES OF THEIR ELDERLY TO BE A LOT HIGHER, INCLUDING PROBABLY VACCINES THAT ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN THE PRIMARY ONES USED IN CHINA. YOU KNOW, EVENTUALLY OMICRON IS GOING TO SWEEP THROUGH CHINA, BUT THEY'RE TRYING TO DELAY THAT WHILE THEY RUSH TO DO A BETTER JOB ON VACCINATION. >> BUT A SOCIETY LIKE OURS THAT'S AT LEAST PEOPLE HAVE THE OPTION TO BE FULLY BOOSTED, PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF, YOURSELF HAVE HAD THE BOOSTER SHOT, EVEN SECOND BOOSTER SHOTS. SHOULD WE STILL TRY TO QUARANTINE ANYBODY WHO GETS IT, OR IS IT GOING TO BE SOMETHING LIKE THE COLD OR A FLU, YOU JUST GOT TO EVERY THE COLD, THAT GIVES YOU AA NICE IMMUNITY, AND WE SHOULDN'T BE TRYING TO SHUT THINGS DOWN NOW THAT PEOPLE HAVE THE OPTIONS TO BE VACCINATED AND BOOSTERED. >> CERTAINLY, THE COMBINATION OF BOOSTING AND DOING A GOOD JOB OF GETTING THE THERAPEUTICS OUT SO IF YOU TEST POSITIVE, IT'S RELATIVELY EASY TO GET PAXLOVID, THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE TO MAKE THE EXTREME TRADEOFF OF SHUTTING THINGS LIKE SCHOOLS, BUSINESSES DOWN. WE SHOULD TREAT IT AS AN ENDEMIC THING LIKE THE FLU. THE MESSAGE ON BOOSTING NEEDS TO BE STRONGER BECAUSE CLEARLY FOR OLDER PEOPLE, THERE IS A WANING EFFECT, SO WE ARE EVEN STARTING TO SEE SOME DEATHS IN VACCINATED PEOPLE. ALTHOUGH, STILL THE MAJORITY ARE THE UNVACCINATED. >> ONE OF THE THING THAT IS STRUCK ME WHEN YOU SAID THE LESSONS LEARNED FROM THE COUNTRIES WHO DID IT WELL VERSUS THOSE WHO DIDN'T, WITH UZ THE CORRELATION BETWEEN TRUST AND GOVERNMENT. TELL ME WHAT ABOUT A THAT AND WHAT WE CAN DO. >> WELL, IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE THAT KIND OF POLARIZATION AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT ARE OUT THERE SHARING THAT FABRIC TRUST. JAPAN IS AN OUTLIER, PARTLY BECAUSE OF TRUST. I THINK THEIR ATTITUDE TOWARDS MASK WEARING, WHERE IT'S KIND OF A FORM OF POLITENESS, IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE NEAR SOMEONE EVEN BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, THEY HAD A LOT OF MASK WEARING. SO THEY BENEFITTED FROM THAT. A LOT OF THE RICH COUNTRIES ARE IN ABOUT THE SAME RANGE AS THE U.S. THE U.S. SADLY DIDN'T DO BETTER, EVEN THOUGH BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT WE WOULD. >> YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK ONE EFFECT OF SPEAKING OUT IS THAT IT'S PROVOKED CRITICISMS OF THE GATE FOUNDATION. THAT'S ACTUALLY A SUGAR COATED WAY OF SAYING YOU HAVE BEEN THE TARGET FOR WHACKIEST OF ALL THEORIES. WHY HAS THAT COME ABOUT AND SHOULD YOU BE PUSHING BACK ON THOSE LIKE THE CRAZY FALSITY THAT YOU HAVE BEEN PUTTING MICROCHIPS IN PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE GETTING VACCINES? >> AS LONG AS THEY DON'T DISCOURAGE PEOPLE FROM GETTING VACCINATED, THE ONES THAT SUGGEST THAT VACCINES OVERALL ARE A PLOT THAT I AND -- OR I IN PARTNERSHIP WITH DR. FAUCI ARE GETTING RICH OVER AND CAUSING MORE DEATHS, THAT'S REALLY TRAGIC BECAUSE THE WORLD SHOULD BE VERY PROUD OF HOW VACCINES ARE SAVING LIVES. WE HAVE CUT THE UNDER FIVE DEATH RATE FROM 10% IN THE YEAR 2000 NOW DOWN BELOW 5%. VACCINES ARE THE BIGGEST PART OF THAT. SO I'M PROUD OF MY ASSOCIATION WITH VACCINES. I DIDN'T EXPECT THESE CONSPIRACY THEORY. >> YOU SAY THAT PEOPLE SAY YOU'RE TRYING TO GET RICH OFF THESE VACCINES, OR AT LEAST THE 1% OF PEOPLE. HOW MUCH HAVE YOU ACTUALLY DONE THE OPPOSITE WHICH IS DONATED IN ORDER TO PROMOTE VACCINES AS OPPOSED TO GAINING PROFITS FROM THEM? >> THE FOUNDATION HAS GIVEN OVER 10 BILLION FOR VACCINES AND 2 BILLION FOR THIS PAB DEMMIC. I'M VERY LUCKY I HAVE THOSE RESOURCES. I HAVE AN AMAZING TEAM AND WE WERE ABLE TO JUMP IN. >> SHOULD THERE HAVE BEEN ONE CENTRAL DATA BASE IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE YOU CAN GO TO FIND WHERE TO GET A VACCINE WHERE WE CAN TRACK IN REAL TIME WHO'S HAD THE DISEASE, WHETHER WE COULD TRACK THE CORRELATIONS OF THE DISEASE TO WHETHER YOU LIVE ND A PLACE, WERE PEOPLE WEARING MASKS, THOSE KIND OF THINGS? >> IT'S TRAGIC THE CDC WASN'T ASKED BY ITS LEADERSHIP TO HAVE A WEBSITE WHERE ACCESS TO DIAGNOSTICS, ACCESS TO RESULTS, ALL OF THE INFORMATION WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE, INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, WHERE TO GO AND GET VACCINATED. SO WE ENDED UP WITH THE DIAGNOSTICS. YOU HAVE A DELAY TO GET RESULTS. THERE'S NO REASON YOU SHOULD EVER CREATE THAT BACKLOG BECAUSE DELAYS MAKE THE TEST ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS. SO WE DIDN'T PRACTICE THE IDEA OF GETTING ALL THE PCR TESTING BEHIND A CDC WEBSITE, AND THAT'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE U.S. FAILURE AND WHAT THE KPEMP LETTERS MANAGED TO ACHIEVE. >> THE CDCs YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT, YOU USED TO SPEAK OF THEM AS THE GOLD STANDARD FOR THE WORLD. EVERYBODY WOULD COME TO THE UNITED STATES TO FIGURE OUT HOW OUR CENTER OF DISEASE CONTROL WORKED. WHY DID THEY FAIL SO BAD THIS TIME EVEN WITH THINGS THAT WERE SURPRISING LIKE KEEPING TRACK OF DATA OF WHO GOT IT, WHO WAS WEARING MASKS, IF YOU ENDED UP TESTING POSITIVE, WHAT KIND OF VACCINES YOU HAD, WHETHER YOU WERE IN AN AREA CORRELATED TO MASK MANDATES? IT SEEMED WE HAD TO USE A FOREIGN DATA TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER THE MASKS WERE WORKING OR NOT. >> THAT IS THE CDC'S FAULT. THEY STILL ARE THE SMARTEST GROUP OF EPIDEMIOLOGISTS. THEY ALSO DIDN'T KEEP FULL-TIME PEOPLE ON PANDEMIC WORK. THINK ABOUT THE DRILLS AND SCENARIOS. WHEN BIG PANDEMICS ONLY COME ALONG EVERY HUNDRED YEARS, IT'S EASY TO GET LAXED. AND THERE'S SO MUCH WORK. THEY HAVE A LIMITED BUDGET. SO NEXT TIME, WE'LL KNOW BETTER HOW TO SCALE UP THOSE DIAGNOSTICS. LIKE WISE, WE DON'T HAVE A HEALTH DATA SYSTEM, SO THEY SUFFERED FROM THE FACT WHAT CORRELATING, YOU KNOW, BEHAVIOR IN AN AREA WITH HEALTH OUTCOMES IS MUCH HARDER IN THE U.S. THAN IT IS IN, SAY, ISRAEL WHERE THEY HAVE A COMMON DATA BASE. >> YOU TALKED ABOUT THE NEED FOR THAT WEBSITE. IN YOUR BOOK, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU HAD A REALLY HEATED PHONE CALL WITH THE WHITE HOUSE ON THAT ISSUE. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR ABOUT IT. WHO WAS IT WITH, AND WHAT WERE THEY ARGUING, AND WHAT WERE YOU ARGUING? >> WELL, A SECRETARY WHO RAN AHS AT THE TIME HAS THE FDA, NIH, CDC, THIS GROUP CALLED BARTA, EVEN AN UNDERSECRETARY FOR EMERGENCY RESPONSE, AND SO WE HAVE MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY WHO THINK ABOUT THESE MEDICAL THINGS, BUT THERE WERE GAPS BETWEEN THE EFFORTS. THERE WASN'T THE PRACTICE LEVEL. SO FOR EXAMPLE, SCALING UP DIAGNOSTICS, ONCE THEY GOT OFF WHERE THEY WEREN'T DOING IT, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BACKTRACK AND STEP UP. YOU KNOW, THE DEFENSE PRODUCTION ACT WOULD HAVE LET THEM GO OUT TO ALL THOSE PCR COMPANIES, WHICH THE U.S. HAS WAY MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, AND GET RAPID DIAGNOSTICS IN PLACE AND GIVEN US A CHANCE TO HAVE SUBSTANTIALLY LESS DEATHS. BUT WE SIMPLY FAILED TO CONVINCE THEM OF THAT. IT GOT CONFUSING. THERE WAS A TASK FORCE AND JARED AND NO WILLINGNESS TO STEP UP AND BUILD THAT KEY RESOURCE. >> TELL ME ABOUT THE PHONE CALL WHERE YOU REALLY TRIED TO PUSH HIM INTO DOING THINGS. >> I WAS FAIRLY STERN. I TRY TO DO THAT LESS NOW THAN WHEN I WAS YOUNG TO SORT OF SAY, HEY, IF YOU DON'T DO THIS, IT'S PRETTY DUMB. BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS WORTH RAISING THE STRENGTH OF MY CONCERN IN A PRETTY DIRECT WAY. YOU KNOW, SADLY THINGS WERE QUITE DYSFUNCTIONAL. THAT WAS IN A PERIOD WHERE THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, TRUMP HAD SAID, HEY, GO AWAY WITHOUT A VACCINE. AND THEY WERE PROBABLY GETTING CALLS FROM LOTS OF PEOPLE, SO THEY JUST DIDN'T WANT TO -- WANT TO BUILD THAT WEBSITE, SO THEN WE -- THEN WE HAD TO BUILD RELATIONSHIPS WITH INDIVIDUAL STATES, SOME OF WHICH HAD THE CAPACITY TO DO IT, BUT MOST DID NOT. >> YOU TALKED ABOUT PREPARING FOR THE NEXT PANDEMIC. ARE YOU SURE THE NEXT PANDEMIC IS GOING TO BE A VIRAL PANDEMIC OR MIGHT IT BE BACTERIAL OR FUNGAI OR SOMETHING ELSE? >> WELL, IT'S VERY LIKELY TO BE A RESPIRATORY VIRUS. WHEN I DID THE 2015 TED TALK AND ARTICLES ABOUT THAT, IT WAS AROUND RESPIRATORY BECAUSE THAT CAN GET OUT SO QUICKLY. YOU'RE STILL HEALTHY AND YOU'RE ON A PLANE OR A BUS, AND IT COULD BE BACTERIAL. MOST OF THOSE BACTERIAL DISEASES AREN'T AS DIFFICULT AS THE VIRAL ONES, BUT WE NEED TOOLS THERE AS WELL. THE SCARY THING IS THE FATALITY RATE COULD BE TEN TIMES HIGHER THAN IT WAS THIS TIME. IN THAT SENSE, WE GOT LUCKY. >> BIDEN HAD A PLAN FOR FIGHTING THE NEXT PANDEMIC. HIS SCIENCE ADVISERS HAD A LOT OF MONEY BEHIND IT. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BIG PLAN THEY WERE GOING TO DO FOR THE NEXT PANDEMIC? IS IT STILL POSSIBLE FOR THE ADMINISTRATION TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT? >> WELL, OF COURSE THE GOVERNMENT HAS A LOT OF ISSUES IT'S DEALING WITH. WE HAVE TO FINISH THIS PANDEMIC, AND WE'RE STILL WORRIED ABOUT DIFFERENT VARIANTS. UKRAINE IS STILL RAISING ISSUES. I HAVE TO SAY I'M A BIT DISAPPOINTED AREN'T PUTTING MORE BAND WIDTH INTO THIS DISCUSSION. I THINK THIS YEAR IS THE TIME FOR THAT. DID T DISCRETIONARY BUDGET DIDN'T HAVE THIS. THEY DID IT IN AN UNUSUAL WAY WITH THE MANDATORY RECOMMENDATION. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW SERIOUSLY THE DEBATE WILL EMERGE. MY BOOK I HOPE WILL KICK OFF THAT DEBATE IN THE U.S. AND AROUND THE WORLD AND GET THINGS LIKE THIS SURVEILLANCE GROUP, MONITORING GROUP, WHICH I CALL GERM, GET THE FUNDING FOR THAT, AND THEY'LL MAKE US PRACTICE ON A REGULAR BASIS EVEN WHEN THERE'S NO PANDEMIC. >> YOU KNOW, THAT GROUP YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT, YOU CALL IT GERM IN YOUR BOOK. IT GOES BACK TO AN -- WE LIKE TO THINK IT WAS BEN FRANKLIN WHO CREATED THE FIRST FULL-TIME FIRE DEPARTMENT WHO SAID, ALL RIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO BE OUT THERE. WHAT IS THE CONNECTION BETWEEN WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING WITH FIRE FIGHTING AND WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING WITH PANDEMIC? >> GOVERNMENT TAKES -- AGAINST MANY EVENTS, WARS, METEORS, FIRE IS THE ONE PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO THE BEST. WE'RE ALL TRAINED AND KNOW ABOUT IT. THERE'S LOTS OF SMALL FIRES, AND THAT HELPS US GET READY TO MAKE SURE YOU DON'T HAVE CITY-WIDE FIRES LIKE EXISTED IN THE PAST. I WAS SURPRISED THERE'S NOW 300,000 FULL-TIME FIRE FIGHTERS IN THE STATE, AND OF COURSE THEY'RE PRACTICING ALL THE TIME. WE ALL KNOW WHEN THAT AWILL REMEMBER GOES OFF TO CALMLY PROCEED TO THE EXIT. THE IDEA THAT THAT'S THE ANALOGY FOR PANDEMICS, I THINK THAT RESONATES WITH PEOPLE MORE. >> SO IF YOU WERE TO SET UP, AS YOU DESCRIBE IN YOUR BOOK, A PANDEMIC RESPONSE TEAM, WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE? WHAT WOULD IT DO? >> WELL, IT'S GOT TO START AT THE GLOBAL LEVEL BECAUSE THESE OUTBREAKS, THEY CAN TAKE PLACE IN ASIA AND AFRICA, SO YOU KNOW, TO PROTECT ALL COUNTRIES, YOU HAVE TO BE CONSTANTLY SEEING ARE THERE LITTLE OUTBREAKS AND APPLY RESOURCES TO SEQUENCE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT IS AND QUICKLY TRY AND AVOID IT GETTING TO MANY COUNTRIES. SO I'M TALKING ABOUT 3,000 PEOPLE UNDER THE W.H.O., SO AT THE GLOBAL LEVEL THAT WORK WITH EACH COUNTRY, AND IF A COUNTRY IS NOT TRACK TISSING WITH, THE W.H.O. WOULD SAY, COME ON, WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, AND THEY WOULD TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET A GLOBAL COOPERATION PLAN. >> HOW DOES THIS PANDEMIC TEACH YOU THINGS ABOUT THE BROADER WORK THAT YOUR FOUNDATION DOES? >> WELL, PREDICTABLY, THE GREAT PANDEMIC TOOLS GOT OUT TO THE RICH COUNTRIES A LOT FASTER THAN THEY DID TO THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES. AND PARTICULARLY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE ELDERLY PEOPLE IN THOSE POOR COUNTRIES, THEY SHOULD HAVE GOT VACCINES BEFORE ANY YOUNG PEOPLE IN ANY COUNTRY DID BECAUSE THIS OVERWHELMINGLY IS A DISEASE OF THE ELDERLY, AND THAT'S WHERE THE VACCINE HAS THIS HUGE IMPACT. YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHERE EVEN NOW, ALL COUNTRIES SHOULD EMPHASIZE COVERAGE AND BOOSTING IN THAT PART OF THE POPULATION. PEOPLE ARE STUNNED THAT THE VACCINES DIDN'T GET OUT -- THERE WERE EFFORTS TO DO THAT. THE U.S. WITHDREW FROM W.H.O. THE MONEY CAME LATE, AND TRUMP BLOCKED THE SPENDING OF THE INTERNATIONAL MONEY, SO BIDEN HAD TO UNBLOCK THAT. SO THERE WERE THINGS THAT MADE THIS ONE VERY HARD. BUT HEALTH IS INEQUITABLE FOR ALL DISEASES. IF YOU'RE IN A DEVELOPING COUNTRY, THE CANCER TREATMENTS ARE NOT THERE. SO IF THIS REMINDS PEOPLE THAT WE NEED TO KEEP REDUCING THAT GAP, IT'LL BE GOOD. YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'T GET THE EQUITY ON THIS DISEASE, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS VISIBLE. SO THAT OVERALL CAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN A SET BACK. THOSE COUNTRIES, THEIR ECONOMIES, THEIR DEATHS. EVEN THOUGH THEIR DEATH RATE, THEY'VE SUFFERED OVERALL MORE THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRIES. >> BILL GATES, THANK YOU SO MUCH. IT'S GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN. >> THANKS, WALTER.