Amanpour and Company

>>> TO THE HEATED DEBATE SURROUNDING A MONUMENT UNVEILED IN BOSTON. THE EMBRACE SPARKED BACKLASH AND THE ARTIST HANK WILLIS THOMAS IS SPEAKING OUT ALONGSIDE THE REVEREND OF EMBRACE BOSTON AS THE ORGANIZATION THAT FUNDED THE PROJECT AND HERE THEY ARE. >> THANK YOU. THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> GRATE TO BE HERE. >> I WANTED TO GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING. I'LL START WITH YOU. HOW DID THE IDEA FOR A SOME SORT OF A PUBLIC ART EXPERIENCE INSTILLATION PROJECT HONORING THE KINGS GET STARTED IN BOSTON? >> THIS IDEA IS ALWAYS BEEN PERCOLATING IN BOSTON AND POLITICAL LEADERS TRIED OR PUT SOME PARTS OF IT TOGETHER OF COURSE THE KINGS WENT TO SCHOOL IN BOSTON, DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING WENT TO BOSTON UNIVERSITY AND CORETTA MET THERE AND FELL IN LOVE. WHAT A STORY. SO THIS IDEA HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE. I GOT INVOLVED IN 2017 AND INVITED IN BY A YOUNG MAN NAMED PAUL ENGLISH WHO SAW THIS AS HIS OWN VISION AS A CHILD WHO HAD GROWN UP IN BOSTON AND KNEW ABOUT THE KINGS, HE WANTED TO DO WHAT HE ASKED ME TO HELP HIM AND IT WAS AN HONOR AND A TRANSFORMATIVE HONOR FOR ME TO BE PART OF THIS. >> WHY DID YOU WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS PROJECT AND MAKE A SUBMISSION? >> WELL, I WAS INVITED BY A MASS DESIGN GROUP I WORKED WITH ON THE NATIONAL MEMORIAL FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE IN MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA WHICH IS BRIAN STEPHENSON'S INCREDIBLE CONTRIBUTION TO AMERICAN LANDSCAPE. I DIDN'T KNOW THE KINGS MET IN BOSTON, REALLY FORCED ME TO REIMAGINE AMERICAN HISTORY. I WANTED TO MAKE A PIECE THAT WOULD HIGHLIGHT A PORTION OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP THAT WOULD REALLY KIND OF INSPIRE US AND THIS SEEMD LIKE AN AMAZING OPPORTUNITY, NOT LIKE -- WASN'T LIKELY WE WOULD GET IT BUT THOUGHT WE'D THROW OUR HATS IN THE RING. >> LIZ, REVEREND LIZ, TALK ABOUT THE PROCESS OF SELECTION, YOU WENT ALL OVER THE CITY AND INTERVIEWED PEOPLE ALL OVER THE CITY AND PEOPLE ALL OVER THE CITY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WEIGH IN. WHAT WAS THAT LIKE? >> PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT THEIR THOUGHTS OF THE KINGS. THAT WAS THE PART OF THE WORK THAT WE WERE DOING AND IT WAS SURPRISING TO MEET PEOPLE THAT REMEMBERED THE KINGS AND WENT TO CHURCH WITH MARTIN LUTHER KING. THAT PART WAS JUST A WHOLE NICE RICH ORAL HISTORY THAT I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT AND AS I PROGRESSED, WE ASKED THEM WHERE THEY THOUGHT THE MEMORIAL WOULD BE, WHAT KIND OF MEMORIAL AND SELECTED A GROUP OF ARTISTS TO FORM THIS KIND OF COMMISSION AND THEY WEREN'T ALL ARTISTS TO A COMMITTEE TO SELECT THE WORK. THAT WAS AN INTERNATIONAL SEARCH AND HANKS WAS TOP OF MIND VERY DIFFERENT. IT WAS ABSTRACT. IT WAS VISIONARIRY IN MY EYES SO THE IDEA OF EMBRACE CAME THROUGH TANKS WORK. >> TALK ABOUT HOW YOU GAINED INSPIRATION FOR THIS PARTICULAR DESIGN. IT'S DRAWN AS I THINK MANY PEOPLE NOW KNOW FROM A FAIRLY FAMOUS PICTURE IF YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, STUDENTS OF MARTIN LUTHER KING AND HIS LIFE'S WORK OF WHEN HE WAS AWARDED THE NOBLE PEACE PRIZE AND CORE RED TO SCOTT KING HIS WIFE ARE EMBRACING A VERY PEOPLE HAPPY MOMENT. >> I'M A PHOTOGRAPHER. MY MOTHER IS A PHOTO HISTORIAN. I LOOKED AT A LOT OF PHOTOGRAPHS THROUGH ARCHIVES FOR MY WHOLE LIFE AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STOOD OUT TO ME ABOUT DR. AND MRS. KING THAT ISN'T SPOKEN ABOUT IS THE INTIMACY THEY HAD. OFTEN TIMES YOU'LL SEE PICTURES OF THEM AND THERE ARE EX PRELGSS OF LOVE AND I FELT THAT WAS SIDE OF THEM IMPORTANT TO HIGHLIGHT. MOST OF THEM THE WAY WE PICTURE THEM AND TALK ABOUT THEM IS IN THIS KIND OF STIFF AND COLD WAYS AND I WANTED TO REALLY TALK ABOUT HOW -- WHAT WAS REALLY DRIVING THEIR WORK WAS A DESIRE TO LOVE FLOURISHED THROUGHOUT SOCIETY INSPIRED BY THE LOVE THEY HAD IN THEIR RELATIONSHIP. >> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S INTERESTING IS YOU CAN WALK UNDER IT AND AROUND IT. YOU CAN IN A WAY HAVE KIND OF AN INTIMATE EXPERIENCE WITH IT. I KNOW FOR EXAMPLE THE MARTIN LUTHER KING MEMORIAL IN WASHINGTON D.C. ON THE NATIONAL MALL, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE OPINIONS ABOUT IT BUT IT IS VERY MONUMENTAL IN THE WAY D.C. MEMORIALS ARE. HE'S REALLY BIG. AND YOU CAN WALK AROUND IT BUT YOU CAN'T REALLY BE IN IT IF THAT MAKES SENSE. I'M CURIOUS IF YOU REMEMBER HOW YOU GOT THE IDEA OF SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING YOU COULD LITERALLY BE IN A WAY INTWINED WITH. >> SO MANY MONUMENTS TO DR. KING AND HEROES ARE THESE GIANTS WHO ARE LOOKING DOWN ON US AND I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THAT ACTUALLY SERVES HISTORY AND LEGACY IN THE BEST WAY. I WANTED TO ACTUALLY INVITE MYSELF AND VIEWERS TO THINK ABOUT WHAT EMBODYING THEM FELT LIKE AND WHAT IT FELT LIKE TO GET CLOSER TO THE SPIRIT OF THEIR WORK. WITH THE EMBRACE, I WAS AWARE OF ALL OF THE CRITICISM OF LIKE THE REPRESENTATION L MONUMENT IN D.C. AND THOUGHT THAT THIS MIGHT BE AN OPPORTUNITY TO REPRESENT THEM THROUGH SPIRIT AND THROUGH SPIRIT IS THE SPIRIT OF LOVE AND WHEN I SAW THAT IMAGE OF DR. AND MRS. KING EMBRACING ON A DAY HE WON THE NOBLE PRIZE, I JUST WAS OVERWHELMED WITH JOY AND PRIDE BECAUSE I KNEW IT WASN'T JUST HIS SUCCESS, HER SUCCESS AND THE SUCCESS OF TENS AND THOUSANDS WHO -- AND MILLIONS ACTUALLY WHO GOT BEHIND THEM AND SUPPORTED THEIR MISSION SO THIS MOMENT BEING CRYSTALLIZED WHERE I FOCUSED ON THE ARMS WRAPPED AROUND EACH OTHER WAS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR ME TO MAKE A SPACE AND VIEWERS TO STAND IN THE HEART OF THEIR LOVE. >> WHAT ABOUT THAT? DID YOU AND OTHERS ON THE GROUP WHO PUT THIS FORWARD HAVE IT -- THE IDEA OF SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE WALKABLE, SOMETHING THAT WOULD FEEL -- MAKE YOU FEEL A CERTAIN WAY OR WAS THAT AN OPEN SLATE? >> I PERSONALLY CANNOT SAY I DID. I WANTED SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF. HANK BROUGHT TO US ALL OF THIS POSSIBILITY. ALL OF THIS POTENTIAL. THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS YOU CAN SAY ONCE YOU SEE THIS PIECE IT TOUCHES SO MANY PARTS OF YOU. WHEN IS THE LAST TIME WE CAN HAVE PUBLIC DISCOURSE ABOUT LOVE, NOT JUST LOVE AS ROMANCE. NOT LOVE AS SENTIMENTAL SOMETHING BUT LOVE AS A CREATIVE FORCE FOR CHANGE. THAT'S WHAT THE KINGS' LOVE WAS ABOUT. >> HERE IS WHERE WE GET TO THE PAIN PART LIKE THE REACTION. WOW. IT'S JUST BEEN REMARKABLE TO ME THE LEVEL OF INTENSITY OF FEELING THAT THE WORK SEEMS TO HAVE EVOKED. ON BOTH SIDES I HAVE TO SAY I'M JUST CURIOUS IF YOU EXPECTED THAT OR HOW YOU REACT TO THAT? MAYBE HAVNG DO YOU WANT TO START? >> SURE,NK DO YOU WANT TO START? >> SURE, WE WERE THERE ON UNVEILING DAY AND THERE WAS JOY AND CIVIC PRIDE AND ENTHUSIASM EXPERIENCED FROM MY PERSPECTIVE BY EVERYONE THAT WAS UNPARALLELED. I'VE BEEN TO A LOT OF OPENINGS AND UNVEILINGS AND THIS WAS UNIQUE. AND THIS IS AN AWESOME EXPERIENCE REALLY. >> UNIQUE IN WHAT WAY? >> JUST THE JOY. YOU KNOW, THE WAY PEOPLE WERE CONNECTING WITH THE WORK AND WITH EACH OTHER AND SO HAPPY THAT WE'VE DONE SOMETHING HISTORICAL AND REALLY REVOLUTIONARY HOW MONUMENTS FOCUSED IN THE PAST. SO THIS PIECE WAS -- IT IS A NEW MOMENT IN TIME AND FOR THAT REASON YOU CAN'T EXPECT TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING THAT IS TOTALLY UNIQUE AND REVOLUTIONARY AND HAVE EVERYONE ACTUALLY UNIFORMLY BE AN BOARD. YOU WANT TO HAVE DISCOURSE AND ENGAGEMENT. WHAT IS SURPRISING TO ME IS HOW AN ONLINE RESPONSE THAT WAS PRIMARILY LEWD. >> LEWD? >> THEY CAN SEE THEY SAY CERTAIN BODY PARTS NOT THERE AND ALL THAT STUFF, PEOPLE SAY THAT ABOUT THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, OF COURSE AND EMPIRE STATE BUILDING. IT FELT LIKE SOMEHOW IN MANY WAYS TRIVIAL AND JUVENILE COULD BE CRITIQUED ABOUT THE WAR AND THAT HOW PEOPLE FEEL AND EXPERIENCE IT ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU SEE PEOPLE LIKE HUGGING IT AND SEE PEOPLE HUGGING STRANGERS CAN KIND OF BE EQUATED WITH LIKE WHAT AT MOMENTS SEEM TO BE TROLLS. SO I WAS REALLY SURPRISED THAT LIKE IN OUR SOCIETY WE CAN -- WE HAVE A NEGATIVITY BIAS AS HUMAN BEINGS. IF 1,000 PEOPLE SAY SOMETHING IS GREAT AND TEN SAY SOMETHING IS BAD, WE FEEL LIKE WE HAVE TO BALANCE THAT. THOSE TEN PEOPLE WHAT DIDN'T YOU LIKE ABOUT IT? I DON'T FEEL LIKE DISCREDITING ANYONE SERVES THE WORK -- >> IT SEEMS LIKE YOU MAY HAVE ANTICIPATED A BIT THERE MIGHT BE NEG NEGATIVITY. I'M THINKING ABOUT A CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH ANOTHER JOURNALIST WHERE YOU SAID THAT MAYBE THE HANDS FOCUSSING ON THE HANDS AND ARMS MIGHT NOT SIT WELL WITH SOME PEOPLE. >> I KNEW REPRESENTING THEM IN A CREATIVE WAY COULD ACTUALLY BE A CHALLENGE FOR SOME PEOPLE AND I'VE DEFINITELY HAD CONCERNS WHEN I SUBMITTED THE PROPOSAL. I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE WHY WE DIDN'T GET IT AND ACTUALLY, OUR ACTUAL MONUMENT WAS THE MOST REPRESENTATION OF THE FINALIST AND ACTUALLY, IT HAS BEEN -- THE FACT THERE IS THIS DISCOURSE WHICH IS SO NECESSARY, ART GETS BETTER THROUGH CRITIQUE. IT IS AMAZING. WE GOT A LOT OF GOOD PRESS AHEAD OF THIS, A LOT OF GREAT PRESS BUT HAVING THIS ONLINE RESPONSE AND OTHER RESPONSES ACTUALLY BROUGHT A LOT MORE EYES TO THE CONVERSATION, A LOT MORE PEOPLE TO THE CONVERSATION. THAT MEANS A LOT MORE PEOPLE WILL BE GOING TO THE EMBRACE. >> CLEARLY, SOME ARE JUST WANTING TO GET ATTENTION BUT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE CONSIDERED SERIOUS PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD CRITIQUES. THERE IS A COLUMNIST FOR "THE WASHINGTON POST" SAYING THAT THE REDUCE THE KINGS, HER WORDS, TO BODY PARTS. SHE SAYS BOSTON'S EMBRACE STATUTE PERFECTLY REPRESENTS HOW WHITE AMERICA BUTCHERS MLK AND CHERRY PICKING HIS QUOTES AND HIS FIERCE CRITIQUES OF WHITE MODERATES, MLK IN HIS FULLNESS IS STILL TOO MUCH FOR THEM. THERE IS A FAMILY MEMBER, I'M NOT QUITE -- COUSIN, WHO IS ALSO AN ACTIVIST OF CORETTA SCOTT KING'S WHO WROTE SOME FAIRLY HARSH CRITIQUE BUT BASICALLY SAYING THAT IT EXPOSES THE ASTRO TURF WOKE MOVEMENTS THAT COME TO DOMINATE BLACK AMERICA. ALL OF THESE ARE NOT UNSERIOUS TROLLS. >> I THINK THIS IS LIKE A TEST. WHAT YOU SEE SAYS AS MUCH ABOUT YOU AND HOW YOU SEE THE WORLD AS IT DOES SAY ABOUT THE WORK AND SO AGAIN, THOSE INSIGHTS ARE WELCOME AND IMPORTANT PEOPLE SHARE THE INSIGHTS. I MAY DISAGREE. I THINK ACTUALLY LOVE IS THE MOST RADICAL FORM OF CIVIC ENGAGEMENT POSSIBLE. THE FACT THAT DR. AND MRS. KING WERE WILLING TO WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO DESPISE THEM, WHO ACTUALLY WERE COMMITTED TO ACTUALLY DESTROY THEM AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THEIR LIVELIHOODS AND FAMILIES. THEY ACTUALLY CHOSE THROUGH A LOT OF SACRIFICE TO GO ABOVE AND BEYOND USING LOVE AS A FORM OF CREATIVE CIVIC ACTION, NON-VIOLENCE AND INVITING US TO SEE OUR HIGHER SHELVES AND THERE IS NOTHING MORE RADICAL THAN THAT. >> WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE REACTION? YOU IN YOUR PRIOR LIFE BEFORE YOU BECAME A MINUTE STER AND ENGAGED IN THIS ACTIVITY, YOU HAD MANY YEARS AS A VERY DISTINGUISHED AND ACCOMPLISHED JOURNALIST. YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE IN RECEIVING PUBLIC OPINION. >> I THINK I'VE LIVED LONG ENOUGH VERY LITTLE SURPRISES ME ABOUT THIS COUNTRY. WE'RE IN A TIME OF GREAT PAIN AND I SAY THAT COSMICALLY AND UNIVERSALLY, THIS IS A TIME OF GREAT PAIN AND GREAT RANGE. I THINK YOU'LL GET -- YOU PUT THAT TOGETHER WITH SOCIAL MEDIA YOU GET THAT. AS HANK SAID SO ELOQUENTLY, THAT'S WHAT IT DOES. YOU WOULD EXPECT THAT REACTION. THAT'S WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO. THE RESPONSES I REALLY BELIEVE IS OUT DONE. THIS SCULPTURE AND MEMORIAL STANDS ON THE NAMES OF 66, 65 BOSTON PEOPLE, BLACK, WHITE, CHINESE ALL OVER ALSO PART OF THE MOVEMENT AND SO YOU REALLY HAVE TO SEE, YOU HAVE TO BE THERE AND SEE IT AND SEE THOSE NAMES THAT YOU MAY OR MAY NOT RECOGNIZE WHO ARE PART OF THIS. IT SPEAKS MUCH MORE THAN WHAT YOU READ ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND THIS IS A MOMENT IN TIME THAT I BELIEVE THIS WILL OUT LIVE THAT AND THAT GIVES ME GREAT HOPE. CAN I SAY PUBLICLY THANK YOU, HANK, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF WE'VE HEARD THAT IN THE PUBLIC DISCOURSE BUT I SAY THAT FROM THE DEPTHS OF MY HEART AND I SNOW I SPEAK FOR THOUSANDS OF BOSTON PEOPLE THAT WORKED ON THIS. YOU DID US PROUD SO THANK YOU. >> DO YOU THINK BOSTONS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THIS PROCESS, DO YOU THINK THEY'RE HAVING A DIFFERENT REACTION THAN PEOPLE RECEIVING WORK IN PERSON ARE HAVING A DIFFERENT REACTION THAN PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE CITY? >> I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE -- >> OVERALL? >> OVERALL. I THINK THERE MIGHT BE ALL KINDS OF REACTIONS TO THIS. BUT I THINK THAT ONCE YOU GET INTO THE SPACE YOU WILL HAVE A VERY SPECIAL, VERY INTIMATE REACTION TO IT BECAUSE IT DOES MARK WHERE WE ARE AND WHERE WOOEFZ BEEN AND MAYBE WHERE WE'RE GOING IN HISTORY. >> SO HANK, I DO WONDER IF THERE IS ANYWAY IN WHICH YOU TAKE COMFORT FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF THE VIETNAM VETERAN'S MEMORIAL BECAUSE IT WAS SO REVILED AT THE BEGINNING. SO MANY PEOPLE ABSOLUTELY HATED IT BUT NOW IT IS ONE OF THE MOST VISITED MONUMENTS IN WASHINGTON AND I JUST WONDERED TO THE DEGREE THAT YOU ENGAGE WITH CRITICISM DO YOU TAKE ANY HEART FROM THAT THAT PERHAPS IN TIME PEOPLE WILL -- PEOPLE WHO HAVE HATED IT OR, YOU KNOW, OR WILL JUST DON'T LIKE IT WILL COME TO CONNECT WITH IT IN WAYS THEY HAVE PERHAPS NOT AT THE MOMENT. >> DO YOU THINK IT IMPORTANT TO HIGHLIGHT PEOPLE YOU MENTIONED THE PERSON AND GOING OVER THE PHOTOGRAPH AND IF YOU'VE EVER SEEN A PHOTOGRAPH OF AN APARTMENT ONLINE AND THEN SAW IT IN REAL LIFE, YOU HAD A VERY DIFFERENT REACTION. I ALSO THINK IT'S NOT EVEN MEANT TO LIKE EVERYTHING. YOU KNOW, THAT'S NOT -- I DON'T THINK WE -- EVERYONE WILL WORK IN THE SOCIETY AND FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT EVERYTHING. ACTUALLY, IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE NEXT MONUMENT IS DIFFERENT AND IT WILL BE CRITIQUED AND CHALLENGED FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. THIS CRITIQUE MADE DISCOURSE ABOUT THE KINGS MUCH BIGGER. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE LEARNING MORE AND DOING MORE AND THIS CONVERSATION WILL GO ON. I DO THINK ABOUT THE STATUTE OF LIBERTY AND THE WAR MEMORIAL, IT'S JUST CRAZY I WAS PART OF SOMETHING THAT IS EVEN IN CONVERSATION WITH THOSE THINGS. I'M PRETTY SURE I'M THE ONLY DESCENDENT OF A SLAVE THAT'S DONE SOMETHING THIS MONUMENTAL IN THE SOCIETY. ALSO IT IMPORTANT TO CONTINUE TO HIGHLIGHT THAT I WAS JUST PART OF A TEAM. I HAD A VISION. A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE VISIONS AND IDEAS BUT REALLY IT WAS A HUGE COLLECTIVE EFFORT THAT MADE THIS POSSIBLE AND THAT'S ALSO WHY I THINK A LOT OF US ARE SO HAPPY THAT IT HAPPENED BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE CAME TOGETHER TO MAKE THIS POSSIBLE. >> REVEREND LIZ WALKER, HANK WILLIS THOMAS, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU.