Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE. AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY, AND HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP. >> I THINK THAT WE'LL BE IN A POSITION TO BE ABLE TO SHARE, TO SHARE VACCINES AS WELL AS KNOW-HOW WITH OTHER COUNTRIES WHO ARE IN REAL NEED. >> AS COVID CASES RIP THROUGH INDIA AND SURGE ACROSS ASIAN, MAJOR FAITH LEADERS ARE DEMANDING THAT WEALTH COUNTRY END THE VACCINE NATIONALISM. I SPEAK WITH SOUTH AFRICAN ARCHBISHOP, AND SETH BERKELEY, THE HEAD OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN VACCINE GARVEY. AND THEN I SPEAK WITH BLAKE GAILY ABOUT THIS AND REBECCA TRAISTER ABOUT WHY THIS KEEPS HAPPENING. >>> ALSO, LOOKING INSIDE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY WITH FORMER SECRETARY JAY JOHNSON. >>> AND ALSO, BREONNA TAYLOR ON DISPLAY LEWISTON. I SPEAK WITH THE AUTHOR. >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" MADE POSSIBLE BY ANDERSON FUND, AND THE CHERYL AND MILLSTEIN FAMILY. THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION. BERNARD AND BERNICE SCHWARTZ. JEFFREY KATZ AND JEFF ROGERS. ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU. >>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE. I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON. INDIA CONTINUES TO BREAK GLOBAL RECORDS AND THE SPIKE IS CRUSHING THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM AS OXYGEN, HOSPITAL BEDS AND EVEN CREMATION SITES ARE DESPERATELY SCARCE. >> THESE RAGING FIRES WILL RAGE THROUGHOUT THE DAY AND EVENING AND SURGING CASES ARE SO MUCH THAT THEY ARE WAITING FOR THE BODIES BE PUT ON THE PYRE BY FAMILY MEMBERS. THERE IS A FEW OUTSIDE WAITING FOR THE FAMILY RITES TO END FOR A FAMILY MEMBER WHO HAS DIED BY COVID-19.MILY AFTER FAMILY BRINS THEM TO THE CREMATORIUM IN NEW DELHI WHO HAVE SEEN A SURGE IN FATALITIES. >> AND AS JOE BIDEN TOUTS HIS ACHIEVEMENTS TO CONGRESS, DR. ANTHONY FAUCI IS CALLING TOUT -- OUT THE U.S. AND OTHER COUNTRIES, AND NOW 150 RELIGIOUS LEADERS ARE CALLING FOR A GLOBAL CAMPAIGN TO END NATIONALISM OR VACCINE INEQUALITY, AND IN A JOINT STATEMENT THEY SAY WE CANNOT ABDICATE OUR RESPONSIBILITIES TO SISTERS AND BROTHERS BY IMAGINING THAT THE MARKET CAN BE LEFT TO RESOLVE THE CRIES IS OR PRETEND TO OURSELVES THAT WE HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO OTHERS IN THE SHARED HUMANITY, AND ONE OF THE FAITH LEADERS IS SOUTHERN AFRICA'S ANGRY CAN ARCH LISH SHOP JOINING HE FROM CAPE TOWN, AND ALSO THE CAPE VERDEAN CHIEF JOINING US FROM GENEVA. YOU HAVE SIGNED THIS URGENT CALL, AND UNTIL MID-APRIL APPARENTLY LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN VACCINATED IN SUB SAHARAN AFRICA. CAN YOU TELL ME FROM YOUR OWN EYES THE URGENCY OF THE NEED ON YOUR CONTINENT? >> THE AGENCY IS INDESCRIBABLE. BECAUSE IF ONE LOOKS AT THE CORE OF THE SYSTEM AND THE INTENTION, IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE POOREST OF THE POOR TO VACCINATE ONLY 3%, AND IT IS DESTINED TO FAIL, AND IN MY CONTEXT THE, I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE DIE WITHOUT SAYING GOOD-BYE TO THEIR FAMILIES. AND IF ONE LOOKS AT THE SCALE OF INDIA IN YOUR INTRODUCTION, ONE KNOWS THAT TO HAVE THE SCALE IN THE CONTINENT, IT WILL BE WIPED OFF OF THE FACE OF THIS EARTH WHILE OTHERS ARE HORDING. SO THIS IS NOT A MORAL ISSUE ONLY, BUT IT IS AN ISSUE OF GREED AND IT IS AN ISSUE THAT THE WORLD SHOULD REALLY SPEAK UP AND STAND UP AGAINST SUCH BEHAVIOR IN THE FACE OF DEATH, PARTICULARLY WHEN MONOPOLIES ARE BEING HELD TO SAVE LIFE. >> WHEN YOU SAY WIPED OFF OF THE FACE OF THE EARTH, IT IS A DRAMATIC PICTURE, AND DRAMATIC CRISIS. AND LET ME ASK YOU, SETH BERKELEY, ACCORDING TO THE W.H.O., ONLY 2% OF THE VACCINE COVID DOSES HAVE BEEN ADMINISTERED IN AFRICAN. AND OF COURSE, THE POPULATION REPRESENTS 16% OF THE WORLD. AND WE HAVE BEEN REPORTING ON THIS INEQUITY FOR MONTHS NOW. AS THE ARCHBISHOP SAID THAT RICH COUNTRIES ARE HORDING. YOUR CONCERN WITH THE POOR NATION, AND THE POOREST PEOPLE, WHAT CAN ACTUALLY BE DONE? PROMISES ARE BEING MADE OF THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF POWER, AND WE HAVE HEARD PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF. >> SO, THANK YOU, CHRISTIANA OF HAVING US AND TAKING ON THEM PORNT ISSUE. THE NUMBERS ARE TERRIBLE. HIGH INCOME COUNTRIES AND ONE-THIRD OF THE CITIZENS HAVE HAD THE ONE DOSE, AND IN THE LOWEST INCOME COUNTRIES IT IS 0.1%, AND WHY WAS THAT SET UP? IT IS BECAUSE SOMETHING LIKE THIS SET UP IN THE LAST EPIDEMIC, AND WE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING ELSE, BUT AS THE ARCHBISHOP HAS SAID, THERE ARE EXPORT BANS AND NOT SHARING OF THE DOSES, AND THIS IS A REAL CHALLENGE. SO COVAX HAS BEEN ABLE TO PROCURE OVER 2 BILLION DOSES WHICH IS AVAILABLE BY THE END OF 2021 WHICH SHOULD COVER 30% OF THE POPULATION, BUT THEY ARE NOT HERE TODAY. AT THE SAME TIME, WEALTHY COUNTRIES BOUGHT MORE THAN A BILLION AND A HALF DOSES BEYOND THE AMOUNT THEY NEEDED TO COVER THEIR CITIZENS, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHICH VACCINES WOULD WORK, AND WHAT WE ARE ASKING IS THAT RIGHT NOW AT THIS CRITICAL TIME, THEY SHOULD SHARE THOSE DOSES TO MAKE SURE THAT AT LEAST THE HEALTH CARE WORKERS AND THE HIGHEST RISK GROUPS GET SAVE AND THIS IS THE REALITY OF THIS PANDEMIC AND THESE VARIANTS ARE PUTTING AT RISK. >> YOU TALKING ABOUT THE HEALTH CARE WORKERS ARE VACCINATED AND I WAS STUNNED THAT THE W.H.O. OFFICIAL IN AFRICA IS SAYING THAT IT IS HEARTBREAKING TO WATCH ON TELEVISION OR WHATEVER AS SHE PUT IT A 19-YEAR-OLD IN A RICH GLOBAL NORTHERN COUNTRY RECEIVING HIS OR HER VACCINE WHERE HEALTH WORKERS, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE ON THE FRONT LINES OF THIS PANDEMIC IN AFRICA OR INDIA OR WHEREVER CANNOT GET EVEN A FIRST DOSE. SO, ARCHBISHOP, YOU WITH THIS LETTER ARE CALLING IN FACT ON TO WORLD'S MOST DEVELOPED LEADERS AND THE MOST POWERFUL G7 LEADERS COMING HERE TO BRITAIN, AND I THINK IT IN JUNE, YOU ARE CALLING ON THEM TO MAKE IT A PRIORITY AND TO GET EVERY PIECE OF THIS PUZZLE TO SENDING THE VACCINES TO WHERE THEY ARE MOST DESPERATELY NEEDED RIGHT NOW. DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR MESSAGE IS GOING TO GET THROUGH? >> I'M HOPING THIS MESSAGE AND THROUGH YOUR PROGRAMS AND MANY OTHER VOICES AND PEOPLE OF FAITH AND NOT FAITH THAT G7 WILL LISTEN, BECAUSE LOOK AT IT THIS WAY, I WAS WORKING IN THE WEEKEND THAT I HAD THE MASK AND DOING THE TESTING, BECAUSE I WAS CROSSING THE BORDER, AND LO AND BEHOLD IN THE HOTEL WHERE I WAS STAYING, THERE WERE MORE PEOPLE WITH AN AMERICAN ACCENT AND ENGLISH ACCENT, AND THEY ARE HERE, SO, THE PANDEMIC AND THE CORONAVIRUS DOES NOT KNOW COLOR. IT DOES NOT KNOW RACE. IT DOES NOT RESPECT THE NATIONAL FLAGS. AND I HOPE THAT THE G7 WILL REALIZE THAT. THAT, THAT WE CANNOT VACCINATE IN EUROPE AND THINK THAT THE VARIANT THAT COMES FROM OTHER PLACES IN INDIA AND EVERYWHERE WILL NOT REACH THEIR BORDERS, AND WE ARE ONLY SAFE IF EVERYONE IS SAFE, AND I WANT TO SAY ALSO IN CANADA, IT IS ONE OF G7, AND THAT CANADA IS ALSO USED THE COVAX, AND OF COURSE, THEY CAN, BUT TO USE THE COVAX IN THE FIRST INSTANCE TO BUY SO MANY VACCINES, AND I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT CANADA WOULD SAY THAT WE CAN COMPETE, AND LET SUPS PORT THE GLOBAL SOUTH TO REALLY ACCESS MORE VACCINES RATHER THAN TAKE MORE VACCINES IS AND TO THOSE G7 COUNTRIES TO EXAMINE YOUR CONSCIENCE, AND WE ARE ONLY SAFE TOGETHER, AND THIS IS NOT APARTHEID WHERE WE HAVE A MONOPOLY WHERE YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE YOUR PROFITS, BUT THINK OF LIFE RATHER THAN PROFIT. >> OF COURSE, IN THE BEGINNING THAT IS THE PLEDGE, WASN'T IT, SETH BERKELEY, THAT THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY WOULD BE SHARED AND THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SHARED, AND SO HOW IS THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN? >> WELL, THE WAY IT WAS SET UP IN COVAX IS TO AVOID THESE BILATERAL DEALS AND TO HAVE SOLIDARITY AND HAVE ALL OF THE COUNTRIES TO JOIN, AND THE WEALTHY COUNTRIES AND THE UPPER AND LOW INCOME COUNTRIES AND FOR THE LOW INCOME COUNTRIES, WE WERE RAISING THE FINANCE TO MAKE THE VACCINES FREE OF CHARGE, BUT BECAUSE SO MANY DOSES WERE LOCKED UP IN THE BEGINNING, WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET THE DOSES IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE YEAR, AND WE HAVE A LARGE NUMBER OF DOSES AS VI MENTIONED FOR THE SECOND HALF OF THE YEAR, BUT OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE TO OBLIGE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE PUT THE MONEY ON THE TABLE TO BUY THE DOSES AND KEEP OUR PROMISE, AND WHEN WE DO THAT. OF COURSE, WITH REENCOURAGING THE COUNTRIES WHO HAVE LARGE AMOUNTS OF DOSES TO KEEP THOSE AVAILABLE, AS WELL AS THE COUNTRY S TO SERVE THE INTERNATIONAL MARKET AS THE SAME TIME THEY SERVE THE WEALTHY MARKETS, AND THIS IS THE CHALLENGE IN FRONT OF US, AND THE LAST THING THEY WOULD SAY IS THAT WE HAVE WORKED HARD TO GET THE TECHNOLOGY TRANSFERS IN INDIA AND THE DOSES USED IN INDIA ARE THE DOSES THAT WERE BEING MADE TO BE USED AROUND THE WORLD, AND OF COURSE, WE UNDERSTAND THE NEED, AND WE ARE TRYING TO DIVERSIFY TO OTHER MANUFACTURERS TO MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE COULD HAVE ENOUGH PRODUCERS AROUND THE WORLD TO MAKE THE DOSES NECESSARY. >> AND ARCHBISHOP, THERE IS A MASSIVE, MASSIVE CRISIS IN INDIA RIGHT NOW, OF THEIR OWN SERUM INSTITUTE HAS HAD TO STOP EXPORTING, AND THEY HAVE A SHORTAGE OF ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, AND IT IS BEGINNING TO SPREAD ACROSS THE BORDERS, SO KNOWING HOW LETHAL AND CONTAGIOUS IT CAN BE IF NOT CONTROLLED AND IF THE VACCINES ARE NOT TAKEN, I WONDER WHAT YOU WOULD SAY TO PEOPLE ON YOUR OWN CONTINENT, AFRICANS, AND EVEN THE AFRICAN LEADERS WHO SOME OF THEM FOR INSTANCE THE LATE PRESIDENT OF TANZANIA HAS PLAYED IT DOWN AND HE TOLD PEOPLE THAT GOD WOULD PROTECT THEM, AND I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A MAN OF GOD, BUT TAKE ITS MORE, AND PRACTICAL SOCIAL DISTANCING AND THE MASKS AND ALL OF THE REST OF IT. WE HEAR THAT THERE IS SO MUCH HESITANCY THAT IS CAUSING EVEN THOSE SUPPLIES OF VACCINES ON THE CONTINENT TO EITHER EXPIRE OR TO HAVE TO BE THROWN AWAY, SO THERE IS A WHOLE OTHER LEVEL OF CRISIS TO ADDRESS ON YOUR CONTINENT. >> PERHAPS LET ME PREDICATE THAT BY SAYING AND UNDERSCORE WHAT YOU ALSO SAID IN YOUR COMMENT. I THINK THAT THE G7 AND THE OTHERS SHOULD REALLY ALSO PUT MORAL PRESSURE TO BEAR ON THE WORLD ORGANIZATION TO RELAX THE TRIPS AND TO REALLY ENCOURAGE THE TECHNOLOGY OF HOW WE ARE PLAYING OUR PART, AND SOME OF THOSE NONSPECIFIC INTERVENTIONS LIKE SOCIAL DISTANCING, AND WASHING OUR HANDS AND PUTTING OUR MASKS AND EVEN IN THOSE COMMUNITIES WHERE WATER AND SANITATION IN THE CONTINENT IS STILL A BIG PROBLEM, AND IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THOSE LEADERS WHO ARE SAYING NO TO VACCINES, AND THEY ARE SAYING THAT THIS IS AN ACT OF GOD, AND IN THE CONTINENT AND IN THE MAIN VACCINE OF POLIO AND TB, AND WE CONTINUE TO HAVE STRUGGLE WITH MALARIA AND WE HAVE BEEN VACCINAING FOR EBOLA, AND SO, YOU KNOW, VACCINE RELUCTANCY WILL NOT BE IN THE CONTINENT, AND OF COURSE, THERE IS GOING TO BE SKEPTICS THERE, AND WE WILL SAY FROM THE PULPIT, AND WE WILL SAY FROM THE MOSQUES AND FROM THE SCHOOLS AND THE UNIVERSITIES AND TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GET THEIR JAB WHEN IT IS AVAILABLE. IN THE MOMENT INDEED THE TRICKLE THAT HAS COME INTO THE CONTINENT IS INSIGNIFICANT THAT WE NEED TO KNOW-HOW. IF YOU LOOK TO PUT ANOTHER POINT IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE AMOUNT OF MONEY, EVEN IF IT IS NOT FOR COVID, THE CONTINENTS SPEND ON EXPORTING DRUGS, I AM SURE THAT IF WE HAVE THE KNOW-HOW, WE COULD HAVE RECIPROCAL FROM THE CONTINENTS TO PRODUCE THEIR OWN DRUGS, AND TO STAY WITH THE PRODUCTION, BECAUSE ALL OF THESE COMPANIES CANNOT MANAGE TO SCALE-UP. >> SO LET ME PUT THAT LAST QUESTION TO YOU, SETH BERKELEY, AND FIRST OF ALL THE HESITANCY, AND HOW BAD THAT IS AROUND THE WORLD, AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT THE HEAD OF THE AFRICA CDC HAS SAID THAT THEY RELY ON 99% OF THE VACCINE IMPORTED AND THEY ARE ONLY ABLE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE ONE PERCENT, AND SO NO CONTINENT CAN SURVIVE IN A, YOU KNOW, HEALTHY WAY IF 99% OF WHAT THEY NEED HAS TO BE IMPORTED. >> YOU KNOW, VACCINES ARE VERY SPECIAL THINGS. THEY ARE BIOLOGICS AND LIVING THING, AND QUITE COMPLICATED TO MAKE. SO WHAT IT REQUIRES IS A LONG-TERM PLAN AND INVESTMENT. AFRICA SHOULD HAVE MORE FACILITIES, AND WE ACTUALLY PROCURE YELLOW FEVER VACCINE FROM A MANUFACTURER IN SENSENEGAL, AND MANUFACTURERS ELSEWHERE, AND MORE NEED TO BE DONE, AND THE CHALLENGE WITH THE W.T.O. IS TO GET INVOLVED AND MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE TECH TRANSFERS THAT GO ON, AND THE CHALLENGE HERE IS NOT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, BUT IT IS KNOW-HOW, AND MAKING SURE THAT THE COMPANIES ARE WORKING TOGETHER TO QUICKLY SCALE-UP MANUFACTURING AND MAKING ADEQUATE AMOUNTS OF DOSES. THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE DONE WITH THE SERUM INSTITUTE OF INDIA, AND OTHER MANUFACTURERS IN KOREA AND OTHER PLACES AROUND THE WORLD TO GET THE DOSES STARTED. WE NEED TO DO MORE OF THAT TO GET TO TRIPLING OF GLOBAL PRODUCTION OF VACCINES THAT WE ARE GOING TO NEED IF WE ARE GOING TO COVER EVERYBODY. >> WELL, LOOK, I APPRECIATE YOUR COMING ON SETH BERKELEY, AND ARCHBISHOP WITH THIS URGENT SO THANK YOU, BOTH. >>> NOW, EARLIER THIS MONTH, I SPOKE WITH BLAKE BAILEY, AUTHOR OF A BLOCKBUSTER NEW BIOGRAPHY OF PHILIP ROTH WHO HIMSELF IS A COMPLICATED WRITER SHADOWED BY ALLEGATIONS OF MISOGYNY. TAKE A LISTEN. >> PHILIP WAS QUITE CAPABLE OF MISOGYNY OF WOMEN AND PUTTING IT IN THE BOOK AND PORTNOY. I THINK THAT HE IS THE GREATEST CHRONICLER OF THE JEWISH EXPERIENCE IN THE POST WAR ERA. IT WOULD BE A SHAME IF HE CAME UNFASHIONABLE OR WAS EVEN CANCELED, BECAUSE I MEAN OF THE 31 BOOKS THAT HE PUBLISHED, SOME ARE ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL READING. >> NOW, SUBSEQUENTLY CAME THE SHOCKING NEWS THAT BAILEY FACES ACCUSATIONS OF HIS OWN THAT HE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED MULTIPLE WOMEN. HES SAY THAT THE ACCUSATIONS ARE CATEGORICALLY FALSE AND LIBEL -- LIBELOUS, AND NOW HIS PUB PUBLISHER IS PULLING IT FROM PRINT. AND SO NOW, IF THEY KNEW IT, WHY DID THEY CHOOSE TO PUBLISH IN THE FIRST PLACE. REBECCA TRAISTER REPORTS ON THE LINKS OF POWER AND ABUSE FROM HARVEY WEINSTEIN AND ANDREW CUOMO, AND SHE IS JOINING US FROM NEW YORK. REBECCA TRAISTER, TALK ABOUT THE LATEST NEWS COMING FROM W.W. NORTON PULLING ALL OF THE COPIES OUT OF PRINT. TELL ME WHAT YOU, WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, AND IS THAT THE RIGHT WAY TO GO? >> THAT IS THE HARDEST QUESTION OF ALL, BECAUSE FOR ME IN WRITING ABOUT ISSUES OF POWER ABUSE, ALONG GENDER AND RACIAL LINE, THE QUESTION ALWAYS SEEMS TO COME, SO WHAT SHOULD THE CONSEQUENCES BE, AND THIS IS THE HARDEST FOR ME TO ANSWER. I MEAN, I THINK THAT PART OF WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT IS THAT YOU CANNOT FIX THE PROBLEMS THROUGH JUST INDIVIDUAL CENSURE, BECAUSE THIS IS SYSTEMIC. OF COURSE, THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF CONCERNS ABOUT TAKING AWAY PROBLEMATIC PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEHAVED IN ABUSIVE WAYS, AND IF YOU REMOVED ALL OF THE BOOKS AND THE MOVIES AND THE MUSIC BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE CAUSED HARM AND NOT JUST PROBLEMATIC, BUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE CAUSED HARM, WE WOULD BE LEFT WITH NOT A LOT OF ART. SO, THAT IS PROBLEMATIC, BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN IN THIS CASE, YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THE PUBLISHER AND THE AUTHOR WHO ALL KNEW THAT THE ALLEGATIONS WERE POTENTIALLY GOING TO BE A PROBLEM, OR IF THE BOOK STAYS IN PUBLICATION, THEY ARE PROFITING FROM IT. SO THE QUESTIONS OF HOW OR WHAT IS AN APPROPRIATE REPERCUSSION WHEN SOMEBODY IS CREDIBLY ALLEGED OF ABUSE, HARASSMENT OR HARM, THAT IS A REALLY DIFFICULT QUESTION, AND I CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER. AND IT IS MY LEAST FAVORITE PART OF THE CONVERSATION, BECAUSE IT LEAVES THOSE WHO WANT TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION OF THIS IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC, AND A LOT OF INEQUITY AND ABUSE HAPPENING WHICH IS THE HARDEST TASK OF ALL OF THE EXECUTIONERS. >> AND SO TAKE IT PIECE BY PIECE, AND FIRST TALK ABOUT THE SPECIFIC ALLEGATION, AND HE IS ACCUSED BY TWO WOMEN OF RAPE, AND TWO PUPILS AS TEACHER, AND HE IS CALLING THEM CATEGORICALLY FALSE AND LIBELOUS, AND IN OF THE COMPLAINTS HAVE REMAINED ON FRIENDLY TERMS WITH HIM, AND LONG AFTER THE ASSAULTS, AND SO PHILIP ROTH, THE BIOGRAPHY HAS BEEN PUBLISHED IN NINE COUNTRIES AND ONLY W.W. NORTON HAS STOPPED THE PUBLICATION BASED ON NOTHING MORE THAN UNPROVEN ALLEGATIONS THEY HAVE SEEN IN THE NEWS REPORTSSH AND OF COURSE, MY FIRST QUESTION TO YOU IS THAT NORTON APPARENTLY KNEW OF ALLEGATION, AND THEY DIDN'T JUST SEE THEM IN THE NEWS REPORTS OR IN THE INTERVIEWS OR WHATEVER, BUT THEY APPARENTLY KNEW THAT ONE OF THE COMPLAINANTS TOLD THEM THAT ANONYMOUSLY THAT IN 2018, SO I GUESS THAT THEN WHERE DOES THE RESPONSIBLY LIE, AND SHOULD NORTON HAVE DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENT RATHER THAN JUST PUBLISH, AND HOPE THIS NEVER COME UP? >> YES. >> AND HERE WE GET TO THESE, AND AGAIN, SO OFTEN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT METOO OR QUESTIONS OF THE SEXUAL HARASSMENT OR THE POWER OF ABUSE, AND THEY COME NOUT THE INDIVIDUAL STORIES AND ABOUT LIKE BAILEY AND PEOPLE WHO ALLEGE THAT HE RAPED OR ASSAULTED THEM OR GROOMED THEM INAPPROPRIATELY, BUT THE TYPE OF THING THAT ALLOWED THEM TO FLOURISH AS A NORM, THIS IS A SYSTEM SICK PROBLEM, AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT WHILE THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY HAVE CAUSED HARM, AND BEEN HARMED, THE ABILITY FOR THAT TO BE SO RAMPANT, TO DEFINE SO MANY OF THE STORIES THAT WE ARE TALKING AND THING ABOUT NOT ONLY IN POLITICS AND ART AND IN MEDIA AND ALL KINDS OF PROFEGTSS IS BECAUSE ABUSES OF POWER ARE STRUCTURAL AND SYSTEMIC, AND SO WHEN YOU TALKING ABOUT THAT AND HOW IT IS APPLYING TO THE NORTON BAILEY/ROTH SITUATION, IT IS ISSUES OF DEPENDENCY FIRST OF ALL, AND WHEN SOMEBODY HAS POWER AND IN A POSITION TO ABUSE IT, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY CAN DO IS THAT PEOPLE BECOME DEPENDENT ON THEM, AND YOU ARE DEPENDENT ON THEM, AND APPROPRIATE FOR THE RECOMMENDATION, AND WHICH IF YOU HAVE LESS POW ATTORNEY BOSS, IT MAKES IT HARDER FOR YOU TO TELL THE INCRIMINATING STORY OR THE TRUTH ABOUT THE BOSS, AND IN THIS CASE, THE DEPENDENCY IS ROTH WHO AS YOU SAY IS THE MAN WHO HAS FAMOUSLY, LET'S SAY, INEQUITABLE EXPRESSED VIEWS OF WOMEN AND GENDER AND SEX IN THE FICTION, AND DEBATABLE IN THE FICTION AND IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS BAD OR DEBATABLE IN THE FICTION, AND IT IS THERE IN FICTION AND HE IS OPEN THERE IN THE OPEN TO BE CHOSEN AS A BIOGRAPHER, BECAUSE OF A SHARED OPINION THAT THEY BONDED OVER THE OBJECTIFICATION OF THE ACTRESS ALI McGRAW, AND THEN BAILEY GOT ACCESS TO HIM, AND THE PAPERS AND ALL OF THE RAW MATERIAL ABOUT PHILIP ROTH, AND THEN NORTON IS DEPENDENT UPON BAILEY AS THE POSSESSOR OF ALL OF THE INFORMATION AND PUBLISHING WHAT HAS PROFITED FROM, AND NORTON HAS PROFIT AND BLAKE BAILEY PROFITS, AND NORTON'S PROFITS IS DEPENDENT ON BLAKE BAILEY, AND IT IS DEPENDENT UPON WHO HAS THIS POWER AND IT IS OFFERING PROTECTION FOR THOSE IN THE CENTER, AND SO, YES, IT IS GOING TO BEAR TO THOSE IN THE CENTER, AND BEARS POORLY FOR THOSE NOT HAVING ACTION, AND THEY FORWARDED THE COMPLAINT TO HIM IN THE MIDDLE, AND THAT IS ALSO GOING TO SEND A MESSAGE TO HIM THAT THEY WERE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, AND THEY PUBLISHED THE BOOK ANYWAY, AND WHY WOULDN'T THAT BE A PROBLEM, BECAUSE THE PUBLISHERS WERE INFORMED. >> AND SO I HAVE TO GET TO THE RESPONSE FOR A SECOND, REBECCA, BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN A LEAKED INTERNAL EMAIL FROM THE PRESIDENT JULIA RIGHTHEAD WHO SAYS THAT AS A PUBLISHING COMPANY, WE ARE LIMITED IN THE INVESTIGATIVE ABILITIES, BUT WE RECOGNIZE THAT THERE MAY BE SITUATIONS OF THE ALLEGATIONS OF THE POTENTIALLY CRIMINAL CONDUCT WHERE WE SHOULD ACTIVITY CONSIDER BRINGING IN OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE, AND IS THAT IT? >> WELL, SURE. BUT THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF IT. THAT IS, I MEAN, A LOT OF SORT OF POST HOCK COVERING AND ACCORDING TO THE REPORTS THAT WE READ, THEY DID NOT REACH TOUT THE COMPLAINANT, AND SO IF THEY SHOULD HAVE HIRED A SEPARATE INVESTIGATOR, IT IS ON THE LIKES OF BAILEY AND THEY LET HIM KNOW THAT THE ALLEGATIONS EXISTED AND THEY TRANSLATED IT AND LET HIM KNOW WHO THIS PERSON WAS AND EVEN THOUGH IT WAS SUBMITTED ANONYMOUSLY, AND HE CONTACTED HER AFTERWARDS WITH THE SUBMITTED EMAIL, AND SO THEY ED ABOMNIBLY. AND SO IN ONE OF THE EARLY EXPERIENCES WHEN YOU WERE A YOUNG REPORTER, AND YOU STILL ARE, AND IN ANY EVENT IN THE EARLY DAYS WHEN YOU WERE DOING A REPORT ON HARVEY WEINSTEIN, AND IT TURNED PRETTY UGLY, AND YOU KNOW, YOUR COLLEAGUE WAS PHYSICALLY, YOU KNOW, ASSAULTED BY HIM, IT IS VERY INSTRUCTIVE, AND CAN YOU QUICKLY TELL US THE STORY? >> IT WAS A 25-YEAR-OLD IT WAS 2000. I WAS REPORTING A FILM BUSINESS STORY ABOUT HARVEY WEINSTEIN ABOUT A FILM STORY, AND I WENT TO A PARTY TO ASK HIM A QUESTION, AND TO ASK HIM A QUESTION, BECAUSE HE WOULD NOT ANSWER MY PHONE CALLS, AND SO HE SCREAMED AT ME AND TRIED TO TAKE MY TAPE RECORDER AWAY, AND HE CAUSED A PUBLIC SCENE BELLOWING, AND TOOK A COLLEAGUE OF MINE WHO WAS CHALLENGING HIM ON HIS BEHAVIOR AND TOOK HIM OUT INTO THE STREET AND PUT HIM IN A HEADLOCK, AND SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THESE POWER ABUSES, AND SO WHY DIDN'T YOU COME OUT EARLIER, AND THIS WAS NOT SEXUAL HARASSMENT, BUT THIS WAS REPORTED IN THE TIMES AND THE POST, AND THIS IS NOT A SECRET. I WAS TOLD TO MY BOSS THAT I WAS NOT TO SPEAK TO THE REPORTERS ABOUT IT. SO IT WAS FRAMED THAT I WAS AN AGGRESSOR A 25-YEAR-OLD REPORTER ASKING THIS QUESTION OF THE MASSIVELY IMPORTANT MOVIE PRODUCER WHO WAS VIOLENTLY AGGRESSIVE IN THE RESPONSE. SO IT WAS THAT I WAS AGGRESSIVE, AND IT DID NOT MAKE A SCRATCH ON HARVEY WEINSTEIN'S REPUTATION. AND SO WE WERE PULLED IN THAT IT WAS OLD STYLE STUDIO BOSS, AND IN POLITICS AND FILM AND ART, AND WE CONFUSE OFTEN THAT WE CONFUSE VIOLENCE AND ABUSE WITH GENIUS, AND POWER AND HE KNOW THOUSANDS PLAY THE HARD-KNUCKLE GAME, AND HARD BUSINESS ACUMEN AND THAT IS WHY HE IS TOUGH AND SCREAMS AT PEOPLE AND BEHAVES THAT WAY, BUT THE EVENT LIKE THAT WAS NORMALIZED AND IT DID NOT MAKE A DENT IN THE REPUTATION OF THIS MAN THAT LATER WE WOULD LEARN THAT HAD HE HAD BEEN ENGAGED IN MASSIVE VIOLENT VIE LENTS AGAINST WOMEN IN OTHER WAYS, AND THAT IS PART OF HOW IT IS HAPPENING, AND IT IS OUT IN THE PUBLIC, AND WE ARE TOLD THAT IT DOES NOT MATTER, AND THAT IS PART OF WHAT POWER LOOKS LIKE. >> REBECCA TRAISTER, AND YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, WE HAVE TO KEEP VIGILANT, AND KEEP THE ACCOUNTABILITY UP, BECAUSE YOU ARE RIGHT, IT IS NORMALIZED. THANK YOU FOR HAVING THIS CONVERSATION WITH US. >>> AND NOW, THIS WEEK, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY ANNOUNCED THAT IT GOING THE BE CONDUCTING THE INTERNAL REVIEW TO ROUT OUT EXTREMISM, AND WHITE SUPREMISM. JEH JOHNSON WAS THEN THE DIRECTOR OF HOMELAND SECURITY, AND HE TELLS WALTER ISSACSON WHAT LURKS. >> WELCOME TO THE SHOW. >> THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME TO THE SHOW. >> TEN YEARS AGO WAS THE RAID ON OSAMA BIN LADEN, AND THAT IS THE SECURITY THREAT AT THAT TIME. AND TELL ME, WHAT ROLE DID YOU PLAY AND HOW DO YOU SEE THAT NOW TRANSFORMING THE TYPE OF SECURITY THREATS THAT WE FACE? >> MAY 1st, 2011, I WAS GENERAL COUNSEL OF THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE AND LEGAL OFFICIAL FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE INVOLVED IN THE CONSIDERATION OF THE LEGAL ISSUES THAT WENT INTO THE PLANNING OF THAT VERY SENSITIVE OPERATION. MAY 1st, 2011 WAS PROBABLY MY SINGLE BEST DAY IN PUBLIC SERVICE, BECAUSE WE GOT BIN LADEN. I'M A NEW YORKER. 20 YEARS AGO ON 9/11, I WAS IN THIS LAW FIRM IN MY PRIVATE LIFE AND IN THE CORNER OF THE BUILDING AND I SAW EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED ON 9/11, AND SO MAY 1st, THAT WAS THE CLOSURE LIKE IT WAS FOR ME AND MANY OTHER AMERICANS. I AM PROUD THAT I HAD A SMALL PART IN THAT. THE THREAT TO THE HOMELAND SECURITY OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS HAS EVOLVED SIGNIFICANTLY, AND WE TOOK THE FIGHT TO OVERSEAS GROUPS LIKE AL QAEDA AND THE ISLAMIC STATE. WE ADDRESSED FOREIGN DIRECTED TERRORISTIC ATTACKS TO THE POINT WHERE IN MY JUDGMENTAL CADE AND -- JUDGMENT AL QAEDA COULD NO LONGER HAVE FOREIGN-INSPIRED ATTACKS AND LONE WOLF WOULD BE INSPIRED BY SOMETHING THEY SAW ON THE INTERNET TO NOW DOMESTIC-BASED TERRORIST ATTACKS BY RIGHT WING EXTREMISTS AS DOCUMENTED BY THE ADL AND OTHER GROUPS. SO, OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS SINCE THE BIN LADEN OPERATION OR THE THREATS TO HOMELAND HAVE EVOLVED SIGNIFICANTLY TO THE FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS FROM GROUPS LIKE ISIS TO DOMESTIC-BASED THREATS OF THE TYPE THAT WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING, VIOLENT RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS LIKE EL PASO, LIKE CHARLESTON, AND I PUT THAT IN THE CATEGORY AND A SERIES OF OTHERS AND THE ATTACKS ON SYNAGOGUES AND MOSQUES AND BLACK CHURCHES, AND THE ADL WILL TELL YOU THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE TERRORIST THREAT. RIGHT NOW, THE NUMBER ONE THREAT IS COVID. WE ARE ADDRESSING IT. THE PEOPLE ARE GETTING VACCINATED AND THE TREND LINES ARE FOR THE MOST PART IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. LONGER TERM, IT IS MY VIEW, WALTER, THE NUMBER ONE HOMELAND SECURITY THREAT TO OUR NATION IS GLOBAL WARMING, CLIMATE CHANGE, WILDFIRES IN CALIFORNIA, DROUGHT, FAMINE, INTERNATIONALLY, ERODING COASTLINES, THE SEVERE WEATHER EVENTS THAT THREATEN AGING INFRASTRUCTURE, AND WE HAVE A LOT OF THAT HERE IN THE NEW YORK AREA, AND THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE THREAT TO THE HOMELAND SECURITY, AND I'M PLEASED THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION INTERNATIONALLY IS STEPPING UP TO TAKE A LEADERSHIP ROLE THAT IS WHERE THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE RIGHT NOW IN ADDRESSING THE CARBON EMISSIONS. >> YOU RARELY TALK ABOUT YOUR ROLE THAT DAY TEN YEARS AGO IN THE WAY THAT KILLED OSAMA BIN LADEN, AND EXACTLY WHERE WERE YOU? >> I WAS IN THE COMMAND CENTER IN THE BASEMENT OF THE PENTAGON THAT DAY. YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER THAT NOT LIKE IT WAS TEN YEARS AGO, BUT LIKE IT WAS MAYBE TEN HOURS AGO. IT WAS SUNDAY. I WAS VERY APPREHENSIVE AND NERVOUS LIKE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE. I GOT UP VERY EARLY, AND I WENT OUT TO FLOWER SHOP, AND THE GARDEN SHOP THAT MORNING, AND I PLANTED A WHOLE BUNCH OF PANSIES IN MY YARD IN GEORGETOWN AND I PUT ON A SPORT COAT AND I TOLD MY FAMILY THAT I HAD TO GO TO WORK, AND SO I SAT THERE AND I WATCHED THE ENTIRE OPERATION FROM THE BASEMENT OF THE PENTAGON AND I TOOK DETAILED NOTES WHICH ARE NOW CLASSIFIED AND I WILL NEVER SEE IT AGAIN, AND I WILL NEVER FORGET MY ENTRY

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00, GERONIMO, GERONIMO, WHICH MEANT THAT THE SPECIAL FORCES HAD FOUND HIM AND GOT HIM. >> PRESIDENT BIDEN IS LOOKING AT EXTREMISTS IN THE ARMED SERVICES, AND THE POLICE, AND EVEN IN PARTS OF YOUR FORMER DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, BECAUSE IT WAS A HIGH PROPORTION OF THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION THAT WERE PART OF LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND THE MILITARY, AND TELL ME WHY THAT IS, AND HOW YOU WOULD SOLVE THAT PROBLEM. >> IT IS A WORTHWHILE INQUIRY. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, THE ANNOUNCEMENT THE OTHER DAY, THERE WAS NO SPECIFIC EPISODE AMONG DHS PERSONNEL, AND NO SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS ARRESTED OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE OR ACTING OUT ON DHS HEADQUARTERS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT A NUMBER OF THE INSURRECTIONISTS ON JANUARY 6th WERE FORMER MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, MAYBE A FEW IN LAW ENFORCEMENT. SO IT IS A WORTHWHILE INQUIRY TO UNDERTAKE. DHS IS ACTUALLY LARGEST COLLECTION OF CIVILIAN GUN CARRIERS IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND LARGER THAN DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, AND INCLUDES BORDER PATROL CUSTOMS, AIR AND MARINE AND COAST GUARD AND AIR AND MARINE AND CUSTOMS, AND SO IT IS WORTH WHILE INQUIRY, BUT ANOTHER THING THAT I WANT TO SAY IN RESPONSE TO YOUR QUESTION, WALTER, IS THAT THERE IS A VERY INTERESTING STUDY OUT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO AND THAT IS BY PROFESSOR ROBERT HAPE, WHICH IS A STUDY OF DEMOGRAPHICS OF THOSE CONVERGING ON TO THE CAPITOL, A NUMBER FROM BLUE STATE, AND A NUMBER OF THEM FROM DIVERSE CITIES AND DIVERSE STATES, AND THE NUMBER ONE FEAR AND CONCERN WAS THIS SO-CALLED GREAT REPLACEMENT. THAT SOMEHOW WHITE MEMBERS OF OUR SOCIETY WERE GOING TO BE REPLACED BY PEOPLE OF COLOR. THAT PLUS THE FALSE BELIEF THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN AND THEY WERE THE PRINCIPAL DRIVERS OF THIS, AND IT IS WORTH FURTHER STUDY, BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE DHS WAS FULLY WARRANTED. >> AND SO, YOU SEEM THAT IS FURTHER WITH THE FACEBOOK GROUPS, THE BORDER PATROL HAVE SAID RACIST THINGS EVEN ABOUT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS. WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT THAT? >> WELL, WE DON'T WANT TO STIFLE FREE SPEECH, BUT THERE IS A POINT WHERE A FACEBOOK POSTING EVEN IN YOUR PRIVATE OFF HOURS CAPACITY CAN DEGRADE AND UNDERMINE YOUR EMPLOYER'S INTEGRITY AND MISSION AND SO THERE ARE EXAMPLES IN THE COURT THAT SAYS THAT SURE, EVERYBODY HAS A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT, AND IF YOU ARE THE EMPLOYER OF A PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT AGENCY, AND SO THERE ARE LIMITS TO WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY. WHEN I WAS SECRETARY, I GOT TO KNOW DOZENS AND DOZENS OF MEMBERS OF THE BORDER PATROL OF THE DHS PERSONNEL POSTINGS LIKE THAT IN MY EXPERIENCE ARE NOT REFLECTIVE OF THE LARGER ATTITUDE WITHIN DHS. >> DO YOU THINK THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD MONITOR THE SOCIAL MEDIA OF LIKE THE SECRET SERVICE, THE BORDER PATROL, AND THE IMMIGRATION SERVICE, AND SHOULD IT EVEN MONITOR THE ENCRYPTED MESSAGES AND LIKE THE ENCRYPTED MESSAGING SERVICES? THAT IS A GOOD QUESTI. WHEN YOU SAY MONITOR, THAT MIGHT TO SOME IMPLY SURVEILLANCE, BUT IN MANY RESPECTS, FACEBOOK POSTINGS, INSTAGRAM ARE PUBLIC. IF I WERE A MEMBER OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OR THE SECRET SERVICE AND I HAD LINKED TO OR BEFRIENDED SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE SECRET SERVICE AND I SEE THEM POSTING THINGS THAT ARE UGLY, THAT ARE EXTREMIST, I WOULD PROBABLY FEEL AS THOUGH THAT WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO REPORT THAT TO A SUPERIOR. BUT WE STRUGGLE WITH THIS AS EMPLOYERS AND LEADERS OF GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AND HOW FAR YOU GO TO MEASURING THIS AS SOCIAL MEDIA AGENCIES THAT WORK FOR US, AND IN THIS AGE, I THINK IT IS A WORTHWHILE INQUIRIES, AND PRIVACY LIMITS, AND I BELIEVE IT IS A WORTHWHILE INQUIRY AS YOU APPLY FOR A JOB AND HAVE A JOB. >> YOU HAVE SAID THAT THE BORDER IMMIGRATION PROBLEM HAS A TUG IT TO, AND THAT IS THAT THE MORE THE PRESIDENT SOUNDS MORE RECEPTIVE TO HAVING PEOPLE COMING TO THE COUNTRY, THE MORE PEOPLE TRY TO CROSS THE BORDER, AND HOW DYNAMIC DO YOU SEE THAT AND HOW MORE OF A PROBLEM DO YOU SEE THAT WITH THE SOUTHERN BORDER? >> WALTER, I HAVE BEEN AWAY FROM THIS PROBLEM FOR FIVE YEAR, AND THE FURTHER YOU GET AWAY FROM IT, WALTER, THE EASIER THE SOLUTIONS SEEM TO BECOME. THIS WAS A DIFFICULT PROBLEM. I OWNED THE SOUTHERN BORDER ISSUE FOR THREE YEARS WHEN I WAS THE DIRECTOR OF HOMELAND SECURITY. THE SIMPLE FACT IS THIS. UNDER THE CURRENT CONDITION, AND IN THE CURRENT ENVIRONMENT IN CENTRAL AMERICA, THIS IS A ONE-DIMENSIONAL PROBLEM. THE MORE RECEPTIVE WE SOUND IN OUR IMMIGRATION POLICY HERE IN THIS COUNTRY, THE MORE THE SMUGGLERS USE THAT TO RECRUIT MIGRANTS TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES. THERE'S A PUSH AND PULL FACTOR, NO DOUBT. SO ACHIEVING THE RIGHT BALANCE BETWEEN PROMOTING OUR VALUES, AND BEING FAIR AND HUMANE IN THE IMMIGRATION POLICY, AND ENFORCING THE IMMIGRATION LAWS IS DELICATE WITHOUT A DOUBT, AND WHEN WE HAVE THE SPIKE IN 2014, I FELT OBLIGED TO SEND AN UNEQUIVOCAL MESSAGE, DO NOT COME HERE ILLEGALLY, AND YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO SEND THAT MESSAGE, AND THE AMERICANS WANT BORDER SECURITY, AND THEY WANT US TO TREAT THE DREAMERS FOR EXAMPLE FAIR.THEY WANT US TO REFORM THE BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM, BUT WE WANT A SECURE BORDER, SO IT IS INCUMBENT UPON WHOEVER IS IN POWER, AND WHATEVER ADMINISTRATION IS IN POWER TO SEND A STRAIGHT FORWARD UNEQUIVOCAL MESSAGE TO PEOPLE SOUTH OF THE BORDER THAT THERE IS A RIGHT WAY AND WRONG WAY TO COME TO OUR COUNTRY, AND IF YOU COME HERE ILLEGALLY, EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO CLAIM ASYLUM, BUT IF YOU COME HERE ILLEGALLY, WE WILL SEND YOU BACK. NOW, WHEN I WAS IN OFFICE, I HAD SOME VERY AWKWARD MOMENT, AND WHEN I WENT TO GUATEMALA, I STOOD NEXT TO THE PRESIDENT OF GUATEMALA, I SAID DON'T COME TO OUR COUNTRY, AND WE HAVE TO SEND THE STRAIGHT FORWARD MESSAGE OTHERWISE THE COYOTES AND THE SMUGGLERS WILL DISTORT THE MUDDLED MESSAGE, AND THEY WILL COME LIKE USED CAR DEALERS, OTHERWISE, THEY WILL GO NOW, AND THERE IS A DISCOUNT AND YOU HAVE TO GO BY THE END OF THE MONTH, AND THERE IS A SPEEDING FRENZY, THAT LEADS TO THE LARGE NUMBERS LIKE THE ONES THAT WE ARE SEEING NOW. >> AND DO YOU THINK THAT THE PERCEPTION OF THE CHAOS OR THE PERCEPTION THAT SOME PEOPLE EVEN CALL IT IS A CRISIS ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER WHETHER IT IS REAL OR PERCEIVED FEEDS INTO THE WHITE NATIONALISTIC EXTREMISM? >> YES, I DO. THIS IS A REPUBLICAN TALK POINT. THE REPUBLICANS LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE BORDER. THEY LIKE TO TALK ABOUT A BORDER OUT OF CONTROL. IT FEEDS ANXIETY. IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE FACTS OF ILLEGAL MIGRATION. I DON'T -- I WON'T BEAT AROUND THE BUSH, AND I THINK THAT THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION IS YES. >> IF YOU COULD WAVE A WAND AND CHANGE SOME POLICIES TO HELP WITH THE BORDER ISSUES, WHICH POLICIES WOULD YOU DO IRRESPECTIVE TO THE POLICIES OF GETTING THEM PASSED? >> IT IS NOT AS DIFFICULT AS WAVING A MAGIC WAND. THERE ARE SOLUTIONS TO THIS, AND MAYBE POLITICALLY UNATTAINABLE TO THIS IN THE ENVIRONMENT, BUT THE SIMPLE FACT IS, WALTER, AS LONG AS SIMPLE AMERICA IS IN THIS, ONE OF THE VIOLENT ENVIRONMENTS IN AMERICA, ONE OF THE FACTORS OF IMMIGRATION IS WITH THE BORDERS THAT YOU CAN MAKE THE DECISION TO FLEE A BURNING BUILDING IN CENTRAL AMERICA, AND SEND THEIR CHILDREN UP HERE EVEN IF IT IS ONLY FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS WHILE THEIR DEPORTATION PROCEEDING IS FOR THE ASYLUM APPLICATION IS PENDING, SO, MAKING THE INVESTMENT IN ADDRESSING THE POVERTY, AND ADDRESSING THE CORRUPTION, AND ADDRESSING THE VIOLENCE IS THE WAY FORWARD, THEY BEGAN THAT WITH AN INVESTMENT OF 750 MILLION, AND THE BORDER SECURITY EXPERTS WILL TELL YOU THAT DROP IN THE BUCKET IS BEGINNING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. I KNOW THAT JOE BIDEN BELIEVES THIS, BECAUSE WHEN HE WAS VICE PRESIDENT AND I WAS SECRETARY, WE HAD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS, AND HE SPENT A LOT OF TIME HIMSELF IN SOUTH AMERICA ADDRESSING THIS ISSUE, AND LONG TERM, THAT IS THE SOLUTION TO THIS. YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS THE PUSH FACTORS. >> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE CONVICTION OF DEREK CHAUVIN A WEEK OR SO AGO CAN HELP US TO GET TO THE BETTER PLACE BOTH ON POLICING PRACTICES AND THE LARGER ISSUE OF RACE? >> TWO THOUGHTS. ONE, I AM PROUD OF OUR COURT SYSTEM. OUR DEMOCRACY IS CHALLENGED. IT IS UNDER STRESS. BUT THROUGH IT ALL, I BELIEVE THAT OUR COURTS ARE A FORUM FOR TRUTH AND JUSTICE. I WAS VERY IMPRESSED BY THE DEREK CHAUVIN'S JURY'S METHODICAL APPROACH, AND THEY REACHED A VERDICT IN TEN HOURS, BUT IT IS APPARENT THAT THEY WERE CAREFUL. AND ANOTHER THING IS THAT WHEN I THINK OF THE DEREK CHAUVIN PROSECUTION, AND SUPPOSE, WALTER, THERE HAD BEEN NO CAMERA, AND THE INITIAL POLICE REPORT SAID SOMETHING LIKE HAD A, YOU KNOW, HEALTH CONDITION AND WENT INTO DISTRESS WHILE HE WAS HANDCUFFED AND DIED. IF THERE WERE NO CAMERA, THERE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ANY INDICTMENT, AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TUCKED IN THE FILE AND FORGOTTEN. AND AS YOU KNOW, UNWARRANTED LETHAL FORCE BY THE POLICE IS NOT NEW, BUT WHAT IS NEW IS THAT IT IS FILMED NOW, AND FILMED ON A REGULAR BASIS, AND SO THERE ARE ANSWERS TO THIS PROBLEM, BUT IT IS A PHENOMENON THAT IS OCCURRING AND WE CAN SEE IT OCCUR ON A REGULAR BASIS AND NOT BECAUSE IT IS NEW, BUT BECAUSE THE FILMING OF IT IS NEW. >> AND SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY, JEH JOHNSON, THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. >>> AND ON THAT NOTE, A COMMISSIONED ARTIST WAS TO PAINT BREONNA TAYLOR, AND NOW SHE IS TO GIVE HER WORK AWAY TO A PRIVATE COLLECTOR, AND NOW SHE IS PAINTING MICHELLE OBAMA WHICH IS TO HIT A TOUR, AND THE PORTRAIT OF BREONNA TAYLOR IS ON DISPLAY IN LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY, AND SHE IS HERE TO TALK ABOUT IT FROM HER STUDIO IN NEW JERSEY. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, AMY CHERYL, AND WHAT AN AMAZING THING, THIS PORTRAIT, YOU HAVE DECIDED NOT TO SELL OFF TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER, AND IT IS AN AMAZING THING THAT YOU DECIDED NOT TO GIVE IT TO THE PUBLIC COMMONS IF YOU LIKE, AND TO MAKE A PUBLIC STATEMENT WITH IT. TELL ME WHY THAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU. >> IT IS IMPORTANT TO ME BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT IS SOMETHING THAT I KNEW THAT YOU WANTED TO DO, AND TO MAKE THIS PORTRAIT FOR THE COVER OF "VANITY FAIR" AND I HAD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT IT, AND AFTER THE COVER WAS REVEALED, IT WAS IN MY STUDIO AND I WAS THINKING OF LOUISVILLE, AND ALL OF THE UNREST THERE, AND BECAUSE OF BREONNA TAYLOR, AND I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS A BOMB IN GILEAD, AND THROUGH ART WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE COMMUNITY AND FIND SOME SOLACE. >> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE PAINTING, ITSELF, AND I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE I TALKED ABOUT IT WHEN IT WAS ON "VANITY FAIRS" COVER, AND YOU HAD A CHOICE TO DO THE DRESS AND THE COLORS AND TELL ME HOW YOU BROUGHT HER ALIVE AND HOW YOU GOT TO KNOW HER, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, IT IS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU HAVE PAINTED SOMEBODY WHO IS NO LONGER ALIVE. >> RIGHT. THE FIRST THING I DID WAS TO REACH OUT TO HER MOTHER AND SEND ME SOME PHOTOGRAPHS THAT REALLY REPRESENTED BREONNA'S PERSONALITY, AND THE ONE THING THAT SHE SAID IS THAT BREONNA LOVED TO GET DRESSED UP. SO I KNOW THAT AS A WOMAN, A YOUNG WOMAN, IF I WERE GOING TO BE ON THE COVER OF "VANITY FAIR" I WOULD WANT TO BE BEAUTIFUL. SO I REACHED OUT TO HER MOTHER, HAD USED FOR A PAINTING BEFORE, I ASKED HER TO POSE FOR ME, BECAUSE SHE WAS THE SAME HEIGHT AND STATURE OF BREON NASHGS AND THEN I REACHED OUT TO A BLACK FEMALE DESIGNER IN ATLANTA NAMED JAZMINE ELDER AND STARTED A CONVERSATION WITH HER ABOUT SOME OF THE DRESSES THAT I WAS THINKING ABOUT, AND SHE WAS SO HAPPY TO BE A PART OF THE PROJECT, AND SHE SENT ME FIVE OR SIX DRESSES, AND WE USED ONE FOR THE PAINTING. AS FAR AS THE COLOR, IT WAS THE HARDEST CHOICE THAT I FELT LIKE I EVER HAD TO MAKE IN ANY OF MY IT TOOK SO LONG. IT WAS THREE OR FOUR DAYS OF ME, AND I THINK THAT I SAW SO MANY COLORS THAT BY THE END OF THE DAY, I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT SEEMED LIKE, AND I REMEMBER WALKING TO THE BATHROOM DOWN THE HALLWAY TO THE STUDIO, AND IT WAS JUST LIKE, BREONNA, WHAT COLOR DO YOU WANT THE DRESS TO B AND WHEN I GOT BACK, I WAS TRANSITIONING FROM ONE COLOR TO ANOTHER, AND THE BLUE ON BLUE CAME IN, AND I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR, AND SO IT ALLOWED THE VIEWER TO FOCUS ON THE FACE. THERE IS A SENSE OF ETHEREALNESS THAT ENCOMPASSES HER, HEAVENLINESS AND INTROSPECTION. >> I WANT TO PLAY THIS BIT AS I SAID WHEN I SPOKE TO TALLAHASSEE ABOUT HIS COMMISSIONING YOU TO DO THIS AND HE HAD TALKED TO BREONNA'S MOTHER ABOUT WHAT THIS ALL MEANT TO HER. >> AND WHEN TAMEKA PALMER THINKS ABOUT HER DAUGHTER, SHE IS VERY HAPPY TO BE A SYMBOL FOR THE MOVEMENT, BUT THAT IS HER DAUGHTER, AND A LIFE, AND BREONNA IS NOT A SLOGAN TO HER, BUT SHE IS A PERSON, AND SOMEBODY THAT SHE GAVE BIRTH TO, AND SOMEBODY WHO SHE TAUGHT HOW TO RIDE A MOTORCYCLE, AND SOMEONE WHO, YOU KNOW, SHE SHARED A CHILI RECIPE WITH, AND SOMEONE WHO IS THE GLUE TO THE FAMILY TOGETHER, AND IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT WHEN THESE COPS KILL PEOPLE, AND THAT THEY ARE NOT PILING UP PEOPLE, AND THAT SHE WAS ACTUAL LIES AND ACTUAL PEOPLE, AND FOLKS THAT SHE PUT ENERGY INTO, AND COMPLETELY ERASED OFF OF THE FACE OF THE EARTH. >> HE PUTS IT SO DRAMATICALLY OBVIOUSLY AND STRUCK ALSO BY THE FACT THAT HE PUT THE RING ON HER FINGER, BECAUSE SHE HAD NOT YET RECEIVED IT. >> YES. AS SOON AS TANAHASI AND THE WORK THAT HAD BEEN DONE IN LOUISVILLE WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHS, AND WHEN I FOUND OUT THAT IT WAS A LOVE STORY, IT REALLY FELT LIKE SOMETHING THAT HAD TO BE INCLUDED INTO THIS PAINTING. SO I ASKED LA TOYA TO SEND ME A PICTURE OF THE ENGAGEMENT RING THAT BREONNA DID NOT KNOW SHE WAS GOING TO GET. SO I REACHED OUT TO MS. PALMER ABOUT IT, AND HE WAS ECSTATIC ABOUT IT, AND IT BRINGS ANOTHER LEVEL TO THE STORY. >> YES, A BIGGER LEVEL OF MEANING WHY YOU DONE THIS. SO, WOULD LIKE THE KNOW THAT YOU WERE NOT ABLE TO JOIN THE BLACK LIVES PROTEST, AND THIS IS YOUR PART OF THE PROTEST, IF YOU'D LIKE, AND YOUR PART OF THE COMMITMENT TO SOCIAL JUSTICE AND THE FUNDS, WHATEVER FUNDS ACCRUE ARE GOING TO SUPPORT SOCIAL JUSTICE EDUCATION. >> IT IS -- YOU KNOW, AS AN AMERICAN PAINTER, FEMALE PAINTER, BLACK PAINTER, AND I REALIZE THAT ESPECIALLY AS BLACK PAINTER, MY RESPONSIBILITY WHEN IT COMES TO, YOU KNOW, VISUALLY REPRESENTING THIS AMERICAN NARRATIVE IN A WAY THAT WILL ALLOW HER STORY TO CONTINUE TO BE RETOLD. AND SO, THAT IS WHY IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO MAKE SURE THAT I FOUND THE RIGHT STEWARD FOR THIS WORK. AND OF COURSE, IT HAD TO BE IN LOUISVILLE, AND OF COURSE, THE MUSEUM HAD TO HAVE SOME OWNERSHIP OVER THE PAINTING AND IT BE A PART OF HER COMMUNITY AND WHERE HER MOTHER RESIDES, BUT I ALSO FELT THAT IT ALSO WAS APPROPRIATE FOR IT TO BE WITHIN AN INSTITUTION IN D.C. IN LINE OF SIGHT OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE NATIONAL MUSEUM OF THE AFRICAN MUSEUM AND HISTORY AND CULTURE WAS THE APPROPRIATEIT. IT IS A HUGE MOMENT, AND SHE IS SYMBOLIC OF THIS MOMENT, AND THEY WILL BE ABLE TO CREATE SOME CONTEXT AROUND THAT NARRATIVE, IN ORDER FOR HER STORY TO CONTINUE TO BE TOLD. >> I WONDER, AMY, HAVE YOU HEARD ANY REACTION FROM ANYONE WHO HAS SEEN IT, AND WHETHER IT HAS, YOU KNOW, HAD THE IMPORTANT IMPACT ON PEOPLE WHO SEE IT IN HER HOMETOWN, AND ALSO, BECAUSE, OF COURSE, YOU SHOT TO FAME WITH YOUR PORTRAIT OF THE FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA WHICH IS ALSO GOING ON THE ROAD. SO YOU ARE BIG INTO, I DON'T KNOW, IS IT A TEACHABLE MOMENT OR WHAT? IT IS MOVING THIS HISTORY THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY AND NOT JUST KEEPING IT ON THE WALLS OF THE MUSEUM. >> YES, IT IS TRUE. I'M NOT A COMMISSIONED ARTIST, BUT WHEN I AM OFFEREDED THE OPPORTUNITY TO BECOME AND BECOME A PART TO CREATE LEGACY THROUGH PAINTING, I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO DO. >> IT IS REALLY REMARKABLE. AMY CHERYL, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US. AND OF COURSE, SHE IS HAVING HER FIRST SOLO EXHIBITION IN LOS ANGELES RIGHT NOW, AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM RIGHT NOW, AND REMEMBER TO FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" ON PBS, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.