Amanpour and Company

>> WITH TRUMP'S INAUGURATION ON THE HORIZON, PRESENT CONVERSATIONS CONTINUE AROUND THE PRESIDENT-ELECT POLICIES BOTH AT HOME AND ABROAD.

A POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND IN HIS LATEST PIECE TO THE ATLANTIC, AMERICA'S LONELY FUTURE, HE WANTS THAT THE U. S. COULD BECOME A GLOBAL BULLY.

>> DAVID, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> 80 YEARS AGO AT THE END OF WORLD WAR II, THE UNITED STATES HELPED SET UP A WORLD ORDER THAT WAS INVOLVED WITH ECONOMIC COOPERATION COMING OUT OF THE AGREEMENT.

IT WAS A DEFENSE ALLIANCE AGAINST TYRANNY LIKE NATO AND INTERNATIONAL ORDER AS IN THE U. N. , NOW IN YOUR ATLANTIC PC SAY ALL OF THAT IS THREATENED, WHAT WORRIES YOU THE MOST?

>> DONALD TRUMP IS OFTEN DESCRIBED AS AN ISOLATIONIST.

THAT IS NOT REALLY TRUE AND THAT IS NOT THE WAY HE IS DIFFERENT FROM ALL OF THESE PREDECESSORS FROM FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT THROUGH RONALD REAGAN AND FORWARD, TRUMP IS IN DIFFERENT TO THE REST OF THE WORLD OR HE DOESN'T HAVE BUSINESS DEALINGS, HE IS VERY MUCH INVOLVED WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.

THE DIFFERENCES, SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR, SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION, THE AMERICAN LEADERS HAVE UNDERSTOOD THAT IF AMERICA FIND ITS OWN PROSPERITY AND IT'S AND SECURITY, BY COOPERATING WITH STRONG ALLIES.

THE TRUMP VIEW IS ESSENTIALLY PREDATORY.

IT IS A PREDATORY VIEW OF THE WORLD NOT AN ISOLATIONIST VIEW.

THEY SHOULD HAVE , NOT ALLIES BUT SUBJECT NATIONS, THEY SHOULD PAY TRIBUTE INSTEAD OF COOPERATING, HE IS VERY CLEAR HE TALKS TO OTHER COUNTRIES, I WANT YOU TO PAY ME.

AND OF COURSE FREE AND OPEN TRADE, WE SHOULD HAVE HIGH TARIFF WALLS PROTECTING AMERICAN MARKETS IN ORDER TO FORCIBLY, FOR SMOOTH INDUSTRIES OF THE FUTURE.

>> PART OF THAT NOTION AS YOU SAY HAVING HIGH TARIFF WALLS AND THE TERRITORY BACK TO THE UNITED STATES IT DOES SEEM LIKE A CRITICISM THIS --OF THIS WORLD ORDER, THE MANUFACTURING OF THE JOB IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU SAY IN YOUR PIECE THAT TRADE MUTUALLY BENEFITS THE NATIONS AND SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T IT SEEMS TO ME THAT AFTER CHINA GETS INTO THE WTO, WE LOSE OUR INDUSTRIAL BASE, WHY AM I WRONG ON THAT?

>> FIRST, CHINA IS, [THE CHINA CASE A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE ARGUMENT THAT WAS USED ABOUT CHINA WAS USED BEFORE THAT ABOUT THE TRADE WITH MEXICO, ABOUT TRADE WITH THE EASTERN RIM WITH COUNTRIES LIKE TAIWAN AND SOUTH KOREA .

THROUGH ALL OF THE YEARS SINCE WORLD WAR II, THERE HAVE BEEN CONSTANT COMPLAINTS, WE ARE LOSING THINGS BECAUSE WE TRADE FREELY WITH OTHERS.

OVER THAT TIME THE UNITED STATES HAS BECOME ASTONISHINGLY RICHER IN ALL KINDS OF WAYS.

WE HAVE BECOME RICHER IN TANDEM WITH OTHERS BECAUSE THEY HAVE BECOME RICHER TOO.

>> LET ME HOLD THERE BECAUSE YOU SAY WE ARE ASTONISHINGLY RICHER BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE GOT RICH IN THE FINANCE INDUSTRIES AND EVERYTHING ELSE BUT PEOPLE WHO WENT TO THE EARLY-MORNING BUS TO GO TO WORK, THEY GOT LEFT OUT OF THIS .

>> I DON'T THINK PEOPLE HAVE GOOD MEMORIES OF HOW POOR THIS COUNTRY WAS UNTIL VERY, VERY RECENTLY.

>> WE DIDN'T BECOME POOR WHEN PEOPLE LEAVE THE FACTORY FOR THE OFFICE.

WE DON'T BECOME POOR BECAUSE AMERICANS ARE NOT MINING COAL UNDERGROUND, DONALD TRUMP OFTEN, ONE OF THE REASONS HE APPEALS TO OLDER VOTERS IS THAT THIS IS FROM 50 YEARS AGO, IT IS TIRES, RUBBER, STEAL, CARS, THOSE ARE THE INDUSTRIES THAT ARE ALWAYS MUST PRESENT TO HIM.

ONE OF THE REASONS HE IS SO MAD AT GERMANY IS BECAUSE GERMANY TOTALLY DOMINATES NOWADAYS.

HEAVY TALK TO ACTUAL GERMANS, THEY WILL TELL US THAT OUR BIGGEST ALBUM IS GERMANS.

WE ARE NOT DOING SO WELL AT MEDICAL IMAGING AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE BUT WE ARE ALL THERE WHATEVER IT IS.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE ARE ALL IN DANGER OF IN THE POST AND, IN THE AFTERMATH IT TRUMP SHOTS, THE INDULGING MYTHS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS SOLD, WE TRY TO TELL PEOPLE THESE MYTHS AREN'T TRUE.

WE ARE TOLD THAT MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THEM AND WE CAN'T CONTRADICT WHAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE AND THAT WE ARE POOR AND GOING BACKWARDS THERE SOMETHING MAGIC ABOUT MAKING STILL IN GAUZE AND THE COUNTRY CAN ONLY BE PROSPEROUS IN THE WAY IT WAS PROSPEROUS IN 1975.

>> EXPLAINED TO ME WHY THERE HAS BEEN A BACKLASH?

NOT JUST A BACKLASH REPRESENTED BY DONALD TRUMP BUT AROUND THE WORLD AND IT LEFT A LOT OF WORKERS BEHIND.

>> I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU AT ALL AND IT IS NOT TRUE THAT WORKERS ARE LEFT BEHIND.

YOU'RE CERTAINLY RIGHT THAT THERE IS BEEN A BACKLASH .

ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU HAVE TO ASK AND I CHALLENGE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHY IN EVERY COUNTRY THERE IS A BACK LASH, GERMANY WHICH HAS BEEN A POWERHOUSE OF EXPORTING MANUFACTURED GOODS ALSO HAS A REACTIONARY MOVEMENT.

SO IS EXPLOITING A LOT OF MANUFACTURED GOODS WAS A WAY TO PREVENT HAVING A MOVEMENT YOU WOULD EXPECT THAT THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ONE IN GERMANY BUT THERE IS ONE, A POWERFUL ONE.

THERE ARE THREE THINGS IN COMMON, FIRST, THE AGING OF THE BABY BOOMER GENERATION, HUGE GENERATION BORN AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR, THEY BEGAN ENTERING THE 60s IN 2010 WHICH IS EXACTLY WHEN THESE MOVEMENTS BEGAN TO GET GOING.

THESE PEOPLE CAME TO THE RETIREMENT FORCE AND HERE IS THE SECOND COST, THE CAME INTO RETIREMENT AT EXACTLY THE MOMENT THERE WAS A GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS THAT LEFT MANY OF THESE POURING INTO THEIR 60s.

AND THE LAST THING, THIS IS THE THING WE HAVE IN COMMON.

UNLIKE THE TRADE BALANCE, MIGRATION ON A SCALE THAT HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

THAT HAS STARTED AGAIN IN 2010 AND THAT IS A PRODUCT OF GLOBAL PROSPERITY TOO.

THE REASON SOME PEOPLE ARE ON THE MOVE IS NOT BECAUSE THERE ARE 70 MORE DESPERATE PEOPLE, THERE ARE 70 MORE PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD 10,000, 20,000, $30,000 TO PAY A HUMAN TRAFFICKER TO BRING THEM TO A PLACE WHERE THEY COULD AS A RATIONAL INVESTMENT TRY TO GET A BETTER LIFE AND A FEW OF THESE HIGHLY MOTIVATED PEOPLE COME, IT IS BETTER FOR THEM AND BETTER FOR THE RECEIVING COUNTRY.

OF A LOT OF THEM, IT BECOMES VERY STRESSFUL.

THAT IS THE THING THAT UNITED STATES, BRITAIN, GERMANY, CANADA, FRANCE, ALL OF THE COUNTRIES HAVE THIS IN COMMON.

IT VARIES SO MUCH FROM PLACE TO PLACE.

>> DO YOU FEEL THAT MAYBE WE LET IN TOO MUCH ASYLUM-SEEKERS AND MIGRATION WHETHER IT BE IN FRANCE, ENGLAND, UNITED STATES?

>> FOR SURE, I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN PARTICULAR HAS TURNED TOWARD PROTECTIONISM, DONALD TRUMP IS THE MOST PROTECTION AS PRESIDENT SINCE HERBERT HUBERT, JOE BIDEN WAS THE SECOND MOST PROTECTIONIST.

WHEN DEMOCRATS CONFRONTED THE REAL PROBLEM, IMMIGRATION, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO FACE IT.

THEY CHOSE A PROBLEM THAT MADE THEM MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE, TRADE.

THE REMEDIES FOR TRADE, THE THINGS THAT MANY DEMOCRATS LIKED, AND MUCH MORE STATE'S ECONOMIC POLICY.

MORE PROTECTION, THEY LOVE DOING UP.

AND SO IF THAT WAS THE PROBLEM, THEN THEY HAD THE ANSWER.

IF THE PROBLEM WAS IMMIGRATION, THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT.

>> YOU SAY THAT OTHER GREAT POWERS, CHINA, INDIA, RUSSIA, THEY FACE SUSPICIOUS AND EVEN HOSTILE COALITIONS OF POWERFUL ENEMIES AND YOU SAY THE UNITED STATES IS BACKED BY POWERFUL FRIENDS.

IS A LOOK AT IT NOW, WE'VE DONE SOMETHING THAT WE'VE AVOIDED FOR 50 YEARS WHICH IS PUSHING RUSSIA AND CHINA INTO MORE OF A PARTNERSHIP .

INDIA SEEMS TO BE LEANING IN THAT DIRECTION AND I RAN.

WE HAVE SOME OF THE BIGGEST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD'S ALIGNED AGAINST US NOW.

SO WHY HAS THIS ORDER SOMETHING THAT DONALD TRUMP SHOULD PROTECT?

>> THE SOVIET UNION MILITARY LINES GO BACK TO THE 1960S.

IS NOT A NEW THING.

THESE PREDECESSORS, IT IS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THE UNITED STATES AND A LOT TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT INDIA AND CHINA FOUGHT A WAR.

THERE IS NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THE SAME SIZE AS CHINA FROM VIETNAM ON ITS NAVAL BORDERS, THE PHILIPPINES, JAPAN.

OF COURSE THE SOVIET UNION AND ABOVE.

IT'S NOT TRUE THAT THE UNITED STATES PUSHED INDIA, SORRY, CHINA TO ENGAGE VASTLY BLOODIER THAN THE WARS OF THE 1990S.

THAT AGGRESSION HAS BEEN CHECKED, NOT COMPLETELY SUCCESSFUL BUT SURPRISINGLY SUCCESSFUL.

RUSSIA HAS TURNED TO ANOTHER GREAT POWER OF ADVERSARY IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT ALL OF THIS DEMONSTRATES IS THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT THE UNITED STATES DOES HAVE.

>> HE TALKED ABOUT THE NEED TO SUPPORT THIS, GEORGE W. BUSH AND A LONGTIME PART OF THAT REPUBLICAN WING, IT WAS VERY INTERNATIONALIST AND IN THE SENSE OF PRESIDENT BUSH, THE YOUNGER IN FAVOR OF PROMOTING DEMOCRACY AS PART OF IT.

AND IT GOT US INTO WARS LIKE IRAQ AND OTHER PLACES THAT SOME PEOPLE ESPECIALLY VOTERS THESE DAYS ARE SAYING WELL, CALLING THEM FOREVER WARS EXPLAINED TO ME HOW YOU WOULD DEFEND THAT.

>> THE FOREIGN POLICY IN THE PAST TWO DECADES HAS BEEN SOMETHING THAT NOT A PERSON THINKS ABOUT UNTIL I REMIND YOU RIGHT NOW.

WHEN GEORGE BUSH CAME INTO OFFICE, THE OVERPASS, HIS OVERWHELMING OVERRIDING CONCERN WAS OF THE 50,000 NUCLEAR WARHEADS AND IT WOULD END UP IN THE HANDS OF ROGUE STATES OR TERRORISTS OR BE USED BY THE DESPERATE FAILINGS.

IN THE UNITED STATES WITHOUT, SPENT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF RESOURCES.

NOT ONE OF THE 50,000 WARHEADS WENT ASTRAY.

IT WAS THE MOST ASTONISHING SUCCESS IN AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY SINCE THE MARSHALL PLAN.

THE WEAPONS OF THE SOVIET UNION WERE CONVERTED INTO FUEL FOR NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES BUT FRANCE AND OTHER NATIONS TOO AND ALLIED NATIONS WROTE THE CHECKS TO EMPLOY THE SCIENTISTS INTO SECURE THOSE WEAPONS.

IT IS COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN.

THE UNITED STATES EMBARKED AND TRIED TO BRING SECURITY WITH AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ.

THAT IS TRUE.

AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD STUDY WHY IT WASN'T SUCCESSFUL, WILL BE OVERAMBITIOUS, WHAT EXACTLY WENT WRONG AND IT'S REALLY WORTH PONDERING.

I SPENT A LOT OF TIME THINKING AND WRITING ABOUT THESE QUESTIONS.

>> THE FACT THAT SOME OF THESE INTERNATIONAL COMMITMENTS DID NOT GO WELL AND SHOULD NOT MAKE US FORGET THE OTHER COMMITMENTS THAT WENT SO WELL THAT THEY ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN AMERICAN HISTORY SINCE THE MARSHALL PLAN.

>> YOU POSTED RECENTLY THAT WE ARE HEADED TOWARD A U. S. CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS VASTLY BIGGER THAN WATERGATE, WHAT HE SAY THAT?

>> THE CENTER OF THE WATERGATE CRISIS WAS THAT PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON GOT INVOLVED IN A POLITICAL SCANDAL.

RATHER HE ORDERED OR PEOPLE WORKING FOR HIM BURGLARIZE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAD NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE ON AMERICAN POLITICS, IT HAD HAPPENED BEFORE.

WHEN THE NEXT PEOPLE WERE CAUGHT, NIXON'S RESPONSE WAS TO TRY TO MOBILIZE AND SHUTDOWN THE INVESTIGATION OF THE BURGLARY.

OTHER PRESIDENTS HAVE DONE SIMILARLY BAD THINGS BUT THIS MOBILIZATION FAILS, IT'S COMPLETELY FILLED, NEITHER AGENCY WOULD COOPERATE, WHEN NIXON TRIED TO INSTALL A STOOGE AS THE HEAD OF THE FBI, THE AGENCY REJECTED HIM AND THE DEEP LEAKS THAT YOU CAN'T PUT A DIRECTOR TO PROTECT YOU FROM YOUR OWN WRONGDOING, NIXON WAS UNSUCCESSFUL.

HE ASKED FOR THEM, HE NEVER GOT THEM.

THE AGENCIES REFUSED TO DELIVER THEM.

WHEN I SAY IT IS BIGGER THAN WATERGATE, BUT TRUMP WANTS TO DO IS TAKE CONTROL OF THE SPECIAL FBI BUT ALSO THE OTHER AND SECURITY AGENCIES AND USE THEM AS ARMS OF HIS PERSONAL POWER.

NIXON FAILED.

NIXON DID IT SECRETLY .

TRUMP GETS SUPPORTED.

IT WAS THE SAME PREDICAMENT.

BUT THIS TIME BIGGER AND MORE DANGEROUS AND MORE LIKELY TO SUCCEED.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE PERSONAL CORRUPTION OF TRUMP'S FAMILY FOR THE MONEY THAT MAY BE GOING TO THEM BUT EXPLAINED TO ME NOW, IS THAT UNDERMINED, THE ARGUMENT BY PRESIDENT BIDEN'S PARDONING OF HIS SON HUNTER BIDEN?

>> ARGUMENT IS NOT UNDERMINED WHEN I TRY TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHY IT IS WRONG, ASKING EVERY GUEST WHO COMES INTO THE OVAL OFFICE, DID YOU STAY IN MY HOTEL LAST NIGHT?

WHEN THE PRESIDENT REFUSES THE FBI REQUEST TO DEMOLISH THE HEADQUARTERS AND REPLACE IT BECAUSE THERE WAS A RISK THAT THE FBI HEADQUARTERS WOULD BE REPLACED BY A HOTEL THAT WOULD COMPETE WITH HIS, I CAN EXPLAIN ALL OF THAT.

BUT IT DOESN'T HELP WHEN THE PEOPLE DEFEND TRUMP AND SAY YEAH, WHAT ABOUT BIDEN AND HIS SON?

YOU COULD SAY THAT IS NOT AS BAD, IT IS AN OTHERWISE VERY HONEST CAREER BUT IT DOESN'T HELP AND THAT IS WHY IT'S SO WRONG FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN TO DO IT IS ABOUT WHAT THE IDEA OF AMERICA IS.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE GREAT METAPHOR OF SITTING ON A HILL, IT COMES FROM THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT BUT IT IS ALSO JOHN WINTHROP WHEN THE PILGRIMS FIRST COME TO AMERICA, HE GIVES THE SERMON AND THEN IT IS RONALD REAGAN'S TROPE THROUGHOUT THE PRESIDENCY AND TO THE END OF HIS PRESIDENCY.

YOU CALL THEM HOUSE STANDS THIS THE CITY ON A HILL, HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION?

>> FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF THINGS ABOUT AMERICAN LIFE THE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE FROM FAST FOOD TO MICKEY MOUSE TO MANY MISTAKES IN AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY.

WHEN THEY ARE DOWN AND PEOPLE ARE IN TROUBLE, ALL OF THE WORLD THEY LOOK TO THE UNITED STATES AS THE ANSWER.

IT IS THIS GOLDEN LIGHT OF WHAT IS POSSIBLE EVEN IF WE DON'T ALWAYS LIVE UP TO IT.

THAT IS REAGAN'S METAPHOR.

BECAUSE THE CITY WAS ON A HILL, WAS VERY VISIBLE.

THEREFORE EVERYONE HAD TO BE ON THEIR BEST BEHAVIOR AT ALL TIMES.

.

DONALD TRUMP SEES THE UNITED STATES AS WORSE.

WHEN HIS FRIEND IN A TV INTERVIEW ASKED HIM, TRUMP ANSWERED WE ARE NOT SO INNOCENT EITHER.

AND SOME VERY DEEP WAY, THAT IS TRUE, WE ARE NOT SO INNOCENT.

SOMETIMES TO PROTECT , AMERICAN PRESIDENTS HAVE DONE SOME ROUGH THINGS AND SOME OF THE ROUGH THINGS CANNOT STAND UP TO SCRUTINY AND YET WE STILL SAY THEY WERE WRONG.

THE BELIEF HAS ALWAYS BEEN WHEN WE DEPART FROM OUR IDEALS, WE UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE DOING IT AND WE DON'T COMPROMISE THE IDEAL ITSELF AND MAYBE WE APOLOGIZE LATER BUT WE UNDERSTAND THIS IS WHERE WE FELL SHORT BECAUSE THIS OVER HERE IS WHERE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.

DONALD TRUMP IS THE FIRST PRESIDENT .

HAS NO SENSE OWING ANYTHING TO THE REST OF THE PLANET.

HE WANTS TO DOMINATE THE FORCE AND POWER.

NO ONE IS THAT POWERFUL TO DOMINATE THE WHOLE WORLD.

THE UNITED STATES IS STRONG BECAUSE IT HAS FRIENDS.

THEY HAVE BECOME JUST IN THE BIG EMPIRE LIKE THE WAY RUSSIA WAS.

PEOPLE MAY FEAR YOU BUT THEY WON'T RESPECT YOU, THEY WON'T TRUST YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.