Amanpour and Company

>>> THE CRISIS THAT'S BEFALLEN THE PEOPLE OF GAZA HAVE GALVANIZED THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE, IN AMERICA AND ELSEWHERE.

AS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS FLEA THEIR HOMES.

REVEREND FREDERICK HAYNES AND BLACK PASTORS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES HAVE BEEN LOBBYING FOR A CEASE-FIRE, THROUGH OPEN LETTERS AND IN MEETINGS WITH WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS, AND HAYNES NOW SPEAKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THE IMPACT THIS COULD HAVE ON PALESTINIANS AND ON U.S.

POLITICS.

>> REVEREND HAYNES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THANK YOU.

>> YOU ARE THE SENIOR PASTOR OF A FAIRLY LARGE CONGREGATION IN DALLAS, WOULD YOU JUST TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF YOUR CONGREGATION?

>> YES, WE HAVE A CONGREGATION IN EXCESS OF 10,000 TO 12,000 MEMBERS.

ON SUNDAYS, WE WILL SEE ANYWHERE FROM 2,000 TO 4,000, AND THAT'S NOT TO MENTION THE ONLINE VIEWERSHIP, WHICH IS MUCH MORE, SO -- IT'S A GROWING CONGREGATION, IT'S ALSO A YOUNG CONGREGATION, AND A VIBRANT CONGREGATION THAT IS COMMUNITY CONSCIOUS AND VERY MUCH IN TUNE WITH THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN JESUS AND JUSTICE.

>> SO, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO GO BACK TO OCTOBER 7th.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU PREACHED ON THAT SUNDAY?

BECAUSE I WOULD IMAGINE, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE CONGREGATION THAT YOU HAVE, THEY WOULD EXPECT TO HEAR FROM YOU.

>> I DO REMEMBER THE THEME, AND MY INTENT, AND THAT WAS TO PROVIDE SOME KIND OF BALANCE.

ON THE ONE HAND, I WANTED TO ENSURE THAT COMFORT WAS PROVIDED TO THE VICTIMS' FAMILIES, AND ALL WHO WERE TRIGGERED BY SUCH AN EVENT.

I HAVE A COUPLE OF MEMBERS WHO WERE IN NEW YORK ON 9/11, AND SO, I KNEW THAT THERE WOULD BE COMPARISONS TO 9/11, AND THE HORRORS AND THE EVIL THAT OCCURRED ON THAT DAY.

OF COURSE, THAT LANGUAGE HAS BEEN USED SUBSEQUENT TO OCTOBER 7th, AND SO, I FELT IT NECESSARY TO PROVIDE THAT KIND OF CONSOLATION.

AT THE SAME TIME, I FOUND IT NECESSARY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE NOT MAKE THE MISTAKES THAT WERE MADE IN RESPONSE TO 9/11 IN RESPONSE TO OCTOBER 7th.

AND BY THAT, I MEAN, I THINK HISTORY HAS RECORDED THAT IN THE AFTERMATH OF 9/11, THERE WAS SUCH A DETERMINATION TO EXACT REVENGE THAT THE RESPONSE WAS DISPROPASSIONATE, AND TOO MANY INNOCENT LIVES WERE LOST IN RESPONSE TO 9/11.

9/11 WAS HORRIFIC.

THERE IS NOTHING THAT WILL EVER ASSUAGE WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT DAY.

SO, MY PRAYER WAS, MY SERMON WAS, ON THE ONE HAND, LET'S OFFER COMFORT.

AT THE SAME TIME, LET'S LEARN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY, BECAUSE IT'S WELL-KNOWN, IF YOU DO NOT LEARN FROM THE PAST, YOU END UP REPEATING IT, AND IN MANY INSTANCES, YOU MAGNIFY THE MISTAKES THAT WERE MADE IN THE PAST.

>> AND I TAKE IT THE FEARS THAT YOU EXPRESSED IN THAT SERMON HAVE, IN FACT, COME TO PASS, WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO SAY, FROM YOUR PERPERSPECTIVE?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, YES.

IT'S BEEN HORRIFYING TO WATCH THE RESPONSE, AGAIN, DISPRO PASSIONATE, AND NOT DOWNPLAYING IN ANY WAY WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

AND I HOPE THAT WE CAN ERASE THE NARRATIVE THAT YOU -- JUST BECAUSE YOU FEEL THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN DISPROPORTIONATE, DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE ERASING THE MEMORY OF THE HORRORS OF WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, BUT AGAIN, TO SEE HOSPITALS, PLACES OF REFUGE, BEING BLOWN UP, SO, YES, MY WORST FEARS HAVE BEEN REALIZED, AND MY WORST FEARS ARE A LIVING NIGHTMARE FOR THOSE WHO ARE LIVING IN GAZA.

>> YOU ARE ONE OF MORE THAN 1,000 BLACK PASTOS IN THE U.S. WHO ARE CALLING ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO SUPPORT A CEASE-FIRE IN THE -- IN ISRAEL'S, YOU KNOW, WAR ON HAMAS.

HOW DID THIS KIND OF ORGANIZATION, THIS DECISION TO SORT OF MAKE A STATEMENT AS A GROUP, COME TO PASS?

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WELL, MANY OF US, OF COURSE, ARE A PART OF GROUP TEXT, AND WE BEGAN TO EXPRESS IN OUR COMMUNICATION OUR DISGUST WITH WHAT WAS GOING ON.

AND AS THE NOTIFICATIONS INCREASED, AS THE NEWS BROADCASTS CONTINUED TO SHOW THE NIGHTMARE UNFOLDING, IN WHAT SO MANY OF US HAVE LABELED THE HOLY LAND, WE BECAME INCREASINGLY IMPATIENT WITH THE RESPONSE OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

AND SO, WHAT BEGAN AN INFORMAL TEXT MESSAGES CONVERSATIONS GOING BACK AND FORTH, SOME OF MY BELOVED COLLEAGUES SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO WAY THAT WE CAN JUST LIMIT THIS CONVERSATION TO OUR GROUP TEXT.

WE HAVE TO STAND.

WE HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING.

WE HAVE -- WE HAVE TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN US FOR US TO BE POOR STEWARDS OF OUR LEADERSHIP RESPONSIBILITY.

AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT MANY OF US HAVE IN-ROADS IN THE ADMINISTRATION, AND SO, WE ASKED FOR A MEETING WITH THE ADMINISTRATION, SO THAT WE COULD EXPRESS OUR CONCERNS IN A WAY THAT WAS RESPECTFUL, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, REFLECTING A SENSE OF URGENCY OVER WHAT WE CONSIDERED TO BE A STATE OF EMERGENCY.

>> YOU MENTIONED THAT A NUMBER OF PASTORS HAVE MET WITH THE ADMINISTRATION, WHO DID THEY MEET WITH?

>> RIGHT, REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE MIN STATION.

IT WAS NOT THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, BUT REPRESENTATIVES, THOSE WHO I WOULD SAY ARE -- THEY HAVE -- THEY HAVE AUTHORITY, BUT OF COURSE, THEY ARE REPRESENTATIVES.

WE FELT WE WERE HEARD, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE FELT THAT IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE MEETING, BUSINESS AS USUAL CONTINUED, AND SO GIVEN THAT, WE FELT THAT THE ONLY THING WE HAD TO DO NOW WAS TO LOOK FOR WAYS TO EXERT AS MUCH PRESSURE AS WE COULD FROM A MORAL PERSPECTIVE, BECAUSE THAT BASICALLY IS WHAT WE ARE DOING.

YOU MENTIONED THE 1,000 PASS PASTORS WHOSE NAMES WERE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES."

SINCE THAT PARTICULAR PIECE OCCURRED, I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW MANY OTHER PASTORS SAID, I WISH YOU WOULD HAVE INCLUDED ME, I WISH YOU WOULD HAVE REACHED OUT TO ME.

SO, THE NUMBERS ARE MUCH MORE.

>> REVEREND HAYES, WHAT DO YOU THINK JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE MEANS IN THIS MOMENT?

YOU KNOW, AFTER EVERYTHING THAT HAS ALREADY TRANSPIRED, WHAT IS TRANSPIRING NOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS?

AND THE SECOND QUESTION TO THAT WOULD BE, DO YOU THINK JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE CAN COEXIST WITH SECURITY FOR ISRAEL?

>> WITHOUT QUESTION.

MY PREDECESSOR AT RAINBOW PUSH, THE ICON REVEREND JESSE JACKSON, COINED THE PHRASE SECURITY FOR ISRAEL, JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE.

OF COURSE, IT'S REMIXED DURING PROTESTS IN THE STREETS, WHERE WE SAY NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE.

BECAUSE THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN JUSTICE AND PEACE.

THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN JUSTICE AND SECURITY.

AND SO, I THINK WHEN REVEREND JACKSON SAYS SECURITY FOR ISRAEL, JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE, OF COURSE JUSTICE HAS A RESTORATIVE COMPONENT TO IT.

JUSTICE HAS A COMPONENT TO IT THAT SAYS, WE HAVE TO REBUILD.

WE HAVE TO RESTORE WHAT HAS BEEN BROKEN.

AND SO, RIGHT NOW, JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE NOT ONLY INCLUDES A CEASE-FIRE, AND THE SAFE PASSAGE OF HUMANITARIAN AID, BUT ALSO REBUILDING ON THE TERMS OF THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THE LAND THAT HAS BEEN DESTROYED.

RESTORING IT TO THEM, ENSURING THAT THEY HAVE THEIR LAND ON THEIR TERMS.

IF THEY HAVE THEIR LAND ON THEIR TERMS, THAT HAS BEEN REBUILT, THE HOSPITALS, THE HOMES, THE SCHOOLS, ALL OF THEM HAVE TO REBUILD.

>> SO, WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU WANT PRESIDENT BIDEN TO DO?

BECAUSE, IN FACT, LOOK, HE HAS, YOU KNOW, HE FAMOUSLY WENT TO ISRAEL, THE FIRST SITTING PRESIDENT TO VISIT ISRAEL, YOU KNOW, AT WARTIME, HE HUGGED THE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, BUT HE ALSO, AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE SAID WHAT YOU SAID, LEARN THE LESSONS OF 9/11, BE PROPORTIONATE IN YOUR RESPONSE.

>> YOU CAN SAY THAT, BUT YOU CONTINUE TO FUND THE CARNAGE.

WE ALL KNOW THAT THIS COUNTRY GIVES A HUGE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES TO ISRAEL THAT HAS GONE TO -- THAT HAS GONE TO FUND A LOT OF WHAT IS TAKING PLACE RIGHT NOW, AND SO, WE HAVE THE MORAL AUTHORITY, BUT ALSO, THE FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY.

IF WE WED THOSE TWO AND SAY, MR. NETANYAHU, WE WILL NO LONGER GIVE YOU FINANCIAL RESOURCES, WE WILL NO LONGER GIVE YOU MILITARY RESOURCES AND STAND BY, WATCHING THE CARNAGE UNFOLD, THAT IS A PROFOUND STATEMENT.

IT'S ONE THING TO TALK IT, IT'S ANOTHER THING TO WALK IT.

AND EXERT IT.

>> IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT WORRIES THAT THE CRITERIA SIMILAR OF PRESIDENT BIDEN MAKES IT EASIER FOR FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP TO GET BACK INTO OFFICE?

>> OF COURSE.

AND I'M ASKING MR. BIDEN TO LEARN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY.

1968, LYNDON JOHNSON HAD DONE SOME AMAZING THINGS DOMESTICALLY.

WE HAVE, BECAUSE OF LYNDON JOHNSON, THE '64 CIVIL RIGHTS BILL, THE '65 VOTING RIGHTS BILL.

SOME WONDERFUL THINGS TOOK PLACE, BUT HIS FOREIGN POLICY DISRUPTED THE COUNTRY IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT SET THE STAGE FOR ANOTHER ADMINISTRATION TO COME IN AND THEY CAME IN, IRONICALLY, ON A SOUTHERN STRATEGY THAT WAS RACE-BASED.

A SOUTHERN STRATEGY THAT WAS WHITE SUPREMACY-FUELED.

AND I'M SIMPLY ASKING MR. BIDEN, AS YOU PROUDLY CALL YOURSELF A ZIONIST, AS YOU PROUDLY SAY YOU STAND BY ISRAEL ALMOST BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, THAT IS OFFENSIVE TO TOO MANY, FIRST OF ALL, FROM A HUMANITARIAN PERSPECTIVE, BUT THEN YOU HAVE PALESTINIANS LIVING RIGHT HERE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO ARE OFFENDED BY WHAT -- BY THE STANCE OF MR. BIDEN, AND SO, YES, MR. BIDEN HAS DONE SOME GOOD THINGS, THAT CANNOT BE DENIED.

IN THIS INSTANCE, I'M CONCERNED THAT HE'S GETTING IN HIS OWN WAY AND WHEN HE GETS IN HIS WAY, HE MAY WELL BE GETTING IN THE WAY OF THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY, OR THE LACK THERE OF IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> SOME PEOPLE LOOK AT THE SAME HISTORY YOU JUST CITED AND DRAW THE OPPOSITE CONCLUSION.

THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT ABANDONED LBJ IS WHAT PAVED THE WAY FOR A -- A RICHARD NIXON, WHO HAD ZERO SYMPATHY FOR AND INTEREST IN THEIR GOALS, BUT THERE ARE THOSE THAT WOULD SAY, THAT'S EXACTLY WHY YOU NEED TO PUT ASIDE THOSE FEELINGS AND SUPPORT THIS PRESIDENT, BECAUSE -- BECAUSE HIS -- THE ALTERNATIVE IS WORSE.

WHO HAS ZERO SYMPATHY FOR THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE, AND MOST OTHER THINGS THAT PROGRESSIVES CARE ABOUT.

AND WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> YEAH, I SAY THAT EXACTLY.

THE OTHER SIDE WOULD BE DISASTROUS.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT WOULD BE MULTIPLIED, WHAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

THAT CANNOT BE DENIED.

I ALSO WILL CLAP BACK AND SAY, IT'S NOT THAT THE CENTER-LEFT ABANDONED LBJ, LBJ ABANDONED THE PRINCIPLES AND VALUES OF THE CENTRAL LEFT.

AND WE'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW, MR. BIDEN HAS ABANDONED THE PRINCIPLES OF REDEEMING THE SOUL OF AMERICA, HE'S ABANDONED THE CENTER LEFT.

AND SO, WE'RE CALLING HIM BACK.

LEARN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY, MR. PRESIDENT.

>> ARE YOUR CONGREGATES TALKING ABOUT THE ELECTION YEAR?

AND, YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT IT IS AN ELECTION YEAR, DOES THAT COME UP IN YOUR CONVERSATIONS?

AND ARE THEY -- ARE THEY TALKING TO YOU ABOUT TRUMP AND BIDEN, AND IF SO, WHAT DO THEY SAY?

>> OH, WITHOUT QUESTION.

AND THIS IS THE EARLIEST.

I'VE BEEN PASTORING 40 YEARS, SO, I'VE SEEN A NUMBER OF PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEARS.

THIS IS THE EARLIEST THAT I HAVE EXPERIENCED AN ENERGIZED CONVERSATION ABOUT THE ELECTION I'VE EVER EXPERIENCED.

AND I HAVE TO BE HONEST, IT'S -- IT'S -- I WON'T SAY IT'S FRIGHTENING, BUT IT'S CONCERNING.

IN LIGHT OF THE STUBBORNNESS THAT IS PERCEIVED AS IT RELATES TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND THEIR POSTURE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND SO, I'M HEARING CONVERSATIONS AND THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE SAYING, OH, I'M GOING TO VOTE, AND I'M NOT CRAZY ENOUGH TO VOTE THE OTHER SIDE, I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR MR. BIDEN, I'LL GO THIRD PARTY.

WELL, MY CLAPBACK IS, WELL, THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO MOUNT A SERIOUS THREAT, AND SO, A VOTE FOR A THIRD PARTY IS A VOTE FOR WHO YOU REALLY, REALLY DON'T WANT, AND SO, THAT ESCALATES THE CONVERSATION, BUT I'M STILL NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR MR. BIDEN, AND, YOU KNOW, SO -- IT'S -- I MEAN, THE CONVERSATIONS ARE, HOW SHOULD I PUT IT -- THE TEMPERATURE IS A LOT HIGHER THAN IT NORMALLY IS, BECAUSE THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE REALLY, REALLY CONCERNED.

I ALSO HAVE MEMBERS WHO WILL SAY, WELL, IT'S BACK TO VOTING FOR THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS.

I HOPE MR. BIDEN DOES NOT WANT TO BE CONSIDERED THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS, BUT THAT'S WHAT MANY ARE SAYING.

>> YOU KNOW, AT THE START OF THE WAR, THERE WAS THIS POLL TAKEN BY THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE, IT FOUND THAT 48% OF BLACK RESPONDENTS SAID AT THAT TIME THAT THEY DIDN'T FEEL CONNECTED TO EITHER THE ISRAELI OR PALESTINIAN SIDE, OR PLIGHT, I GUESS I WOULD SAY.

>> YEAH.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S CHANGED?

>> OH, WITHOUT QUESTION.

THAT HAS CHANGED.

ESPECIALLY -- I WOULD WONDER IF THAT POLL INVOLVED OR ENGAGED YOUNG PEOPLE.

BECAUSE WHEN I LOOBLG AT THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN MY CONGREGATION AND IN THE COMMUNITY, THE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ON FIRE, BECAUSE, AGAIN, THIS IS A GENERATION THAT, ON THEIR CELL PHONES, THEY HAVE NOTIFICATIONS COMING AT THEM ALL OF THE TIME, AND THOSE NOTIFICATIONS, I PROMISE YOU, CONTINUE TO ENRAGE WHAT THEY SEE AS THIS COUNTRY BEING COMPLICIT IN WHAT IS GOING ON, BECAUSE THEY FEEL A CONNECTION WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE PALESTINIANS.

>> AND WHY IS THAT?

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> THEY CAN ALSO RELATE TO, BECAUSE WE ARE ONLY 3 1/2 YEARS REMOVED FROM THE SUMMER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

WE ARE ONLY 3 1/2 YEARS REMOVED FROM BREONNA TAYLOR AND WHAT HAPPENED TO SO MANY DURING THAT SUMMER WHEN WE SAW IN REAL TIME SUCH HORRORS, AND SO, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A -- A RESPONSE FROM THE WORLD COMMUNITY, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE WORLD COMMUNITY, TO THE HORRORS THEY SAW IN THE UNITED STATES THAT WAS TAKING PLACE.

AND I PROMISE YOU, THAT SAME -- THAT SAME DEMOGRAPHIC -- >> YEAH.

>> THEY HAVE A MORAL COMPASS, A MORAL CONSCIOUSNESS, THAT SAYS, WITH MARTIN KING JR., JUSTICE ANYWHERE IS A THREAT TO JUSTICE EVERYWHERE.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE JUSTICE FOR ALL, THERE'S NOT JUSTICE AT ALL.

>> AS WE ARE SITTING NOW, 30,000 PEOPLE -- AT LEAST 30,000 PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY BEEN KILLED.

>> YES.

>> AND, YOU KNOW, HUGE SWATHS OF THE GAZA STRIP HAVE ALREADY BEEN DESTROYED.

AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY BEEN DISPLACED.

AND I JUST WONDER IN SOME WAYS, IS IT ALMOST TOO LATE?

>> WELL, I BELIEVE IT'S NOT TOO LATE.

I THINK IT BECOMES TOO LATE IF THIS LINGELINGERS.

IT BECOMES TOO LATE IF WE DO NOT IN A RESPONSIBLE WAY NEGOTIATE HEALING, A HEALING PROCESS, TO A STRIP THAT HAS BEEN DEVASTATE AND BROKEN.

IT'S TIME FOR AMERICA TO STEP UP AND PROVIDE MORAL, CLEAR LEADERSHIP AND IF THAT TAKES PLACE, AND HEALING BEGINS, THEN THE GOOD NEWS IS, THINGS CAN TURN AROUND.

BUT HEALING, AND I MUST SAY THIS, MUST BE ON THE TERMS OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BROKEN.

THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HURT.

AND NOT ON OUR TERMS, IMPUTING WHAT WE THINK HEALING IS, AS AN EMPIRE THAT PARTICIPATED IN THEREVEREND, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.