After Action

-We, the average American, associates casualties with bombs and bullets.

But there are veterans who have died and those who are dying from combat years and decades after they return home from war.

Can you talk a little bit about what was happening and how you discovered you were ill?

-When you fall down a flight of steps, you know something's wrong, especially when you blank out.

Come to find out it's the dioxide chemical, which I did not realize that I had that at the time.

It would cause you to blank out.

-You're talking about Agent Orange?

-Yeah.

But we did not know it was harmful to us, because our government told us it's not harmful, and we believed in our government.

-The four of us are sitting here trying to take something that is extremely difficult and make it positive.

So when you're dealing with "deny, deny, and hope they die," it's real hard to hold onto that positive.

That's that journey, right?

It's real hard.

I 100% tie to the way the veterans are treated to the suicide, death rate.

I 100% tie it to divorce rates, the domestic violence, all of that.

It's frustrating because it feels very much like you factored the cost of a body bag, but you didn't factor the cost of taking care of me.

-Find those veterans that are slipping through the cracks.

Give them the courage to come see a service officer.

Give them the courage to continue to fight, that there are people out there that care, that we're here to help.

We're veterans.

We know the battle.

We can attest to it, and we will damn sure fight for every benefit that they're entitled to.

-Hi, I'm Stacy Pearsall, retired Air Force staff sergeant.

And today, I'm sitting down with Bobby Tyner, Ron Cherry, and Elba Barr, three veterans who are on the front lines battling the silent killers.

"After Action."

- There will be life There is a road Marching on Coming home [ Birds chirping ] - [Presenter] Major funding for "After Action" is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

With the generosity of individuals, corporations, and foundations, the Endowment is proud to sponsor "After Action".

-Bobby, Elba, and Ron, welcome to LowCountry Acres, and for joining me here on the show.

I really do appreciate you taking the time.

And what I like to do is get to know each veteran and where you're from, what branch of service you got into, and how you went about choosing it, what your career was like?

So, Bobby, do you want to kick us off?

-I was born and raised in North Carolina.

I went into the military in 1965.

I dropped out of high school just to go, because my country needed me.

Needless to say, I had no idea what I was going to be doing.

I got assigned to the 53rd Combat engineer as a demolition, which is a 12B, 12E.

I went to Vietnam, and I went away and came back home in 1967, end of '67.

-Army combat engineer Bobby Tyner cleared Vietcong tunnels as a demolitionist throughout Vietnam and was routinely exposed to Agent Orange.

Over the years, it wreaked havoc on his health, and he watched as it claimed the lives of roughly 390 Vietnam veterans a day.

That inspired him to lead the South Carolina chapter of the Orange Heart Medal Foundation.

-When we'd land in the airports, we were called "baby killers."

We were spit in the face.

There was a lot of things happened to the Vietnam veterans that should never, ever happen.

Anyway, I stay out of service for a little while.

I couldn't make it outside.

I just couldn't -- couldn't make it.

My first wife, she didn't know how to handle it, because we didn't know what they call "PTSD."

Back in my days, we called it "shell shock."

So I never thought too much about that, because it's combat.

My second wife, she didn't know how to handle me either.

We never talked about what happened in Vietnam.

It was something we kept to ourself.

My third wife, she didn't care, and my fourth wife didn't care.

I finally found one that will tolerate me.

[ Laughter ] -So you're on the Larry King plan of marriages.

I'm on the Betty White plan.

I'm on three.

-Three.

I done passed y'all.

-Larry King, okay.

-Well, Elba, you were Army, too, right?

-Yes.

-Okay.

-And I feel like that's an Army thing.

We kind of go through a lot of the spouses until we find the one that can deal with us for a bit.

-Yeah, yeah.

Took a while.

-It takes a little while to find the one that can tolerate our insanity.

-Absolutely.

-Where are you from originally?

-I'm from Vermont originally.

I'm first generation.

My parents are Cuban immigrants.

And, you know, my journey to joining the service was different.

We weren't in war at the time.

I just didn't want to stay on the farm.

Real honest with you.

You know, kid of immigrants, opportunities like scholarships and ways to get to college was really never taught to us, discussed with us.

It was, you just did the best you can.

I'm the oldest girl, and I have an older brother, and he got to school first.

And so, whatever opportunities he got to use first, I kind of had to figure it out the rest of the way.

I tried -- I applied to Northeastern early acceptance, and you know, back then it was in the mail, and you just waited and waited.

And I didn't get any paperwork.

And I was like, I cannot stay on the dairy farm in Vermont, and so I went to the recruiters.

And I started... [ Chuckles ] I started with Navy, and I was like, nope, I don't want to be on a ship at all.

And full circle, I ended up on a ship.

And then Marines, I sat, and I actually wanted to join the Marines.

And I stopped when they said, "Well, you're a Marine first."

You don't know what position you're in until you make it through boot camp.

And I was like, well, that sounds horrible.

And then I didn't even talk to the Air Force.

Such a bad decision on my part.

I just went right into the Army.

And joined and was an intel analyst, and I thought I was just reading maps.

That's what I thought the job was.

I said, that's the easiest job ever, map reading.

I can do that.

That's not at all what I ended up doing.

-Army veteran Elba Barr has battled breast, cervical and ovarian cancer since returning home from deployment at a base in Uzbekistan commonly known as K2, where polluted ponds flooded tent city, exposing service members to radioactive waste.

Elba's story and advocacy has been instrumental in establishing the K2 Surveillance Program and the passing of the PACT Act.

Ron, you're also Army.

-Yes.

-What was your journey?

-Well, my journey was a little different from theirs.

I grew up in a small town.

Not a whole lot going on.

Not a lot of careers.

And I had an older cousin that joined the service, and he was a big influence on me.

I liked the way it made a difference in his life, and I said, "Well, man, if it changed him, it could probably make me a better person as well."

So I joined, and I spent 11 years in the Army, and I really dedicate that to the person that I am today.

If I wouldn't have joined up, I probably would have ended up just like everybody else back on the block and doing things I shouldn't be doing.

So, it was at a point in my life where I had to decide whether I was going to be that guy or was I gonna do better, and I wanted to do better.

And I joined the Army, and here I am.

-After serving his country for 11 years in the Army, Ron shifted his service to the veteran community by joining the Veterans of Foreign War team, better known as VFW.

He's spent the last 22 years helping veterans file benefits claims with the Veterans Affairs.

Due to the recent passing of the PACT Act, Ron is busier than ever, assisting those who've been impacted by Agent Orange, Gulf War syndrome, burn pits, and other toxic exposures.

I want to also thank you for your service and welcome home.

I want to start by saying that.

And so, you volunteered for the Army.

-Yes.

-And then they trained you to be a demolitionist.

-Yeah.

-Can you elaborate a little bit what the job of a demolitionist was, downrange?

-First thing is, learn the wiring how to wire, how to set detonators.

It's a lot of little things you got to learn, and you got to know when to set them and where to set them.

You know, the Claymore mines.

So you had all types of mines and stuff you had to learn, and you got to learn how to take them apart and how to put them back together.

We did a lot of jungle training.

We did a lot of hill training.

We did a lot of different types of training to become what we became.

It was tough.

-How did they utilize your skills in Vietnam?

-My skill was... Well, actually, we blew up villages where we knew Congs was hanging out.

Then we got called in to go to Mekong up to Saigon.

We blew up some places and bridges and stuff.

I had a radio guy that, he gets the radio calls, and he relays it over to me, and we'd call the Hueys in, and they'd pick us up and take us, drop us at our special destinations.

And that's when we found out about the old tunnels.

-The tunnels.

-The tunnels, another story by itself, and if you don't mind, I'll slide on by that one.

-Okay, that's fair.

-This is really tough.

Yeah, that's pretty much what we did.

We'd go in the Hueys, and they'd fly over and point down, and we'd have to jump out of the helicopter.

-That has to be quite an experience.

-It was something else.

-I bet.

I bet.

-Now, did you fast rope, or you literally just jumped off the hovering helicopter?

-Jumped.

Jumped.

-How are your knees today?

-They work terrible.

-I can imagine.

-My back is, according to everybody that checked my back, and my hips, and my legs, they said the joints in my back from the top down is squished.

That's why I move around like I do.

-Yeah.

I bet.

So, Elba, with your job, how did the Army implement you as an intel analyst?

-Yeah, so I'm an all-source intelligence analyst.

And interestingly enough, during the time that I came in, it was rare to have someone who was what they call a "purist."

That was my first job.

Most of the people in my career field had actually been, like, demo or infantry, so their knees and backs and this weren't doing well, but they had the good, the scores to be able to come in.

I was just intel.

And so what I equate it to is, there was a show for a long time, like profiling, you know, like the FBI would find a serial killer or this or that, and there was always this one person who came in and took all the data and could say, "Oh, they're going to do X, Y and Z."

That's an intelligence analyst, is they take all of the data and they make the best guesstimate that they can, be it at a national level, an individual targeting, a high-value individual, or, you know, small company, whatever you were in charge of.

So, I started big, 'cause I was in Korea first -- my first assignment was Korea.

So I started a big, Army with North Korea as an enemy.

And then I was the smart person who said, when they said, "Oh, hey, do you want to go training?"

I was like, "To not go to JRTC?

Yes."

"Hey, who wants to do Middle Eastern intelligence collection?"

"Oh, NTC is the other option?

Yeah, I'll go to Intel school."

So what I didn't realize for myself is I was pretty much painting myself into a corner of being a specialized Middle Eastern analyst pre-9/11, and it was like, "Well, that's never gonna happen."

And then 9/11 happened, and I was high-value target analyst.

So in the beginning of the war, I always tell people, remember the card decks?

When it was all over the news, right?

Like, Saddam Hussein was the number one, and then it was all...

I was the analyst.

I was one of the analysts going after the deck.

And then when the deck was done, I was the analyst going after Al Qaeda and going down that.

So that was what my specialty was.

And so, while I had an assignment, because what you're talking about, Hueys, I'm like, "Oh, he was probably with 101st or something like that."

I was assigned to units, but then removed from those units and put into, as they called them, task forces or joint inter-agencies, because we had FBI, CIA, DEA working in those cells to go after that.

That was the majority of my -- -So, originally, were you working back here in the States?

-I was actually assigned conventionally to the 101st, to go with 3rd Infantry Brigade into Afghanistan, and I was pulled for mission on the tarmac.

Like, we were waiting for the bird to come, and I got pulled for mission when the war billets were released from Central Command.

And so, they sent me to the Horn of Africa and Yemen, because that was a lot -- A lot of people don't realize when 9/11 happened, the war happened, Somalia was actually on the table, because a lot of the Horn of Africa was training the fighters that was going on in Afghanistan and Iraq and stuff like that.

But the reason we didn't go into Somalia is because the American people weren't gonna let us go back after what happened in Mogadishu.

It was just still too very sensitive, still too close to it.

So we just kind of worked in the camps.

-Were you at Camp Lemonnier at the time?

-Yeah.

-Okay.

-Camp Lemonnier was just started.

-Okay.

-I came off Mount Whitney onto Camp Lemonnier.

And then from there, General Petraeus was the commanding general of the 101st, and Sergeant Major Allen, God bless his heart, said, "Oh, you've been already downrange.

You've been dealing with stuff.

We're gonna bring you back, can chill for a little bit.

Rear D, in charge of that.

Just kind of rest."

I made it to Fort Benning, and they were like, "Oh, we have orders for you.

We've been waiting."

Got there on Tuesday.

Saturday, I was on a flight into Kuwait to go to Iraq.

And all of my deployments were... Everything I did in the military was boots on the ground.

-So, Ron, how did the Army use your talents?

-Well, mine was not quite as exciting as these people, but mine was, I was a personnel specialist.

So I did a lot of paperwork for the soldiers as far as processing all the paperwork, leaves, evaluations, casualty reports.

Pretty much all the admin stuff, we took care of that.

I worked at the battalion level, overseeing probably about 500 troops or more, and we just made sure that all their pay was correct, their leave was correct, their insurances were filled out complete.

Just making sure all the administrative part of the job that they were doing, to make sure they didn't have anything to worry about back at home while they were out deployed.

And when they came home, make sure that they had leave, and just to make sure that they were taken care of.

-Well, I can say from my heart, thank you so much for doing what you do.

Because people always look at the people that were deployed, and there is at least 10 or 13 people in the rear supporting the people who were deployed.

It was equally as important.

-I was actually gonna joke and say it's more important.

You're money man.

[ Laughter ] At least it was the rule for us is there's three people in the military you do not mess with.

That is logistics, 'cause they can get you a cot.

That is the DFAC, 'cause they feed you.

-And S1.

-And S1, 'cause they can make your life miserable, and they can lose your leave and lose your pay and you don't exist anymore, but you still have to show up to work.

So, yeah, thank you for that.

That was awesome.

-So, did it seem like when you were leaving the Army and you were getting ready to transition to becoming a veteran... -Mm-hmm.

-...did you fall right back into being a personnelist on the civilian side?

What was that transition like for you?

-It was a little easier for me because my job in the military transitioned easily to the job that I'm doing now, because it was paperwork.

It was all administrative stuff.

So the hardest part for me was the camaraderie, just being with the soldiers, and just how it's so different.

When you're in the military, you know that your buddy has your back.

And when you're not in the military, it's just not that feeling in the civilian world.

Not any shade on the civilian world, but it's a different type of camaraderie within the military ranks that you just like -- like, we're sitting here now having a conversation like we've known each other forever, and we just met yesterday.

-Mm-hmm.

-Well, I can't do that with somebody, just Joe Blow off the street.

It's just something that brings us together that we're able to communicate, and just make it work, as far as... That's the part that I missed the most, and it was just -- It wasn't so hard, because I actually had a plan.

It didn't quite work out the way I wanted it to, but it kind of worked out in my favor.

So, it was some bumps along the way, but as I made my way, I made my way to the VFW, which ended up being my career, which now, it's almost 40 years.

-You've been with the VFW for 40 years?

-No, I've been with VFW for 23, but I served 12 years in the Army.

So it's pretty much, like I said, the same thing.

-Okay.

-Admin.

Still taking care of the troops.

-You know, I think, Ron, you're a prime example of having that military experience, not just occupationally, but the interaction and understanding the military lingo that you're talking about, that camaraderie, where we can just pick right up and know what all of the acronyms are and what all the inside baseball is, regardless of generations.

-Right.

-Right?

And I think that gives us this commonality and a sense of trust.

-Yes, for sure.

-Can you tell me a little bit about what you're doing with the VFW now?

-Yes.

I'm a Veteran Service Officer.

Actually, my title is Associate Director of National Veterans Service in Kansas City.

We advocate for veterans' benefits.

Mainly, if there's a benefit that a veteran is entitled to, we are able to advocate on their behalf to the VA to make sure that they get the benefits that they're entitled to.

It's a daily battle, trying to get these benefits that they're entitled to.

And that's what kind of churns my fire, because there are so many veterans out there that don't know what to do, and to be in a position to just to be able to guide them to the right position or the right entity to get those benefits is self-rewarding to me.

-So do you do just, like, the medical component?

So, my struggle when I talk to people about VA, right, it's like, the "they" in the government.

"The government."

It feels very much like that sometimes with the VA. -Right.

-It's a huge entity.

So when you're working with veterans, are you working in the medical component of it?

Are you working on what services are available to them?

-The whole ball of wax.

-All of it.

-Education, home loan, insurance, disability compensation is our main... but we dabble in everything.

If there's a benefit that a veteran is entitled to, if we don't have the direct contact, we have ways of referring them around to make sure that they get the services that they need.

-So, each of you deployed.

I did too.

And when I came home, I filled out a survey, and that survey -- I don't know if it was the same for the Vietnam veterans.

Did you have any surveys when you came home?

Mine said -- -[ Chuckling ] I don't think they had a survey.

-"Were you exposed to any firefights?

Were you exposed to any burning trash or dead bodies?"

Anything like -- Did you go through any sort of survey?

Did they just spit you out at home and say good luck?

-Sent me home.

-I'm not gonna lie.

I would have preferred the "send me home."

They handed me that survey 2: 00 in the morning.

I had just come back traveling about 47 hours, and we get off the plane, everyone's out there.

"Welcome home!"

Posters and all that.

And then they shoo you off to the other side.

Once you've hugged everybody, they shoo you off through the line and say, "Okay, fill out the survey."

And they expect you to fill that out honestly.

This piece of paper is the deterrent for me actually using a porcelain toilet that flushes.

What do I need to fill out so I don't have to talk to you after this?

-Well, it also comes down to the scuttlebutt on the rotator home or on that long journey home for deployment.

The scuttlebutt is, if you answer anything affirmative on the survey, you're going to be detained.

-You'll be held over.

-Yes.

And that leave is not going to happen.

-You're not going to go see your family for however long.

-Right.

-But the thing that they also don't tell you in that little scuttlebutt is that if you answer that -- if you lie and you say no -- dead bodies, no, burn pits, no -- that sticks with your record too.

-They'll use it against you down the line, for sure.

-And you probably see this?

-A lot.

-A lot.

-You never had anything like that?

Can you tell me about -- -Even when I went back into service.

You know, I got out for a little while.

Like I said, I didn't deal with the public too well.

I couldn't talk to the public.

I just shut down.

I wasn't comfortable.

I figured, well, I'll go back in the military.

Well, I'll sign back up and go back to Vietnam.

But they sent me to Germany instead.

After eight years in the service, we did not talk about dioxide chemicals.

We did not talk about killing.

We did not talk about anything.

We didn't talk.

It wasn't -- You didn't hear nothing about it, period.

When I got out in 1974, I was RIP in the military with honorable discharge, because the war was coming to an end.

So I said okay, so I got out.

Never talked about it.

It was 2018, I started having a lot of problems.

And the problems I was having was blanking out, falling down steps, not knowing why.

-Alright now, Mr. Bobby.

I need clarification here, 'cause my brain is, like, stuck on this.

So, the time from when you first -- 'cause, you know, we see the movies.

And it's all... For y'all's generations and the previous generations, when you were, you know, those who were drafted or those who were volunteering, it seemed like it was super aggressive on your physical, right?

Like, are you going in?

Are you fit to fight?

So from the fit to fight, the fight, and coming back home, in that coming back home, nobody asked you, "Are you still fit to fight?"

It was just the assumption, unless you weren't fit to fight.

-Yeah.

I was fit to fight.

-That's...I mean, I...

I don't want to be dismissive of that, sir, because I'm not sure what's worse.

Nobody asked him if he was fit to fight, or the BS I had was, we came back...

It was when the first indications that the breathing was an issue, and here's why my unit was tested.

There was a massive sulfur fire in Qayyarah West in Iraq, and it lasted for months.

And all of us were kind of exposed to it.

And so they made us come back into the -- right before PT, before a six-mile run.

I distinctly remember this, in Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

"We need to test your lungs."

So, I'm not sure what was more dismissive of, like, is there an issue, or no acknowledgment that there could potentially have been an issue?

Like, of the fit to fight.

I'm just sorry, sir.

My brain just kind of hit on that, like, no one ever asked you if you were fit to fight again.

-Well, I wonder if it's generational too.

Like, at the time, they were drafting people.

-Right.

-So if they had a willing body, did it matter if it was all that fit?

Question mark?

I don't mean to make presumptions, but I know it was a different time.

-When we went in -- -I can speak to, the physicals that they had during his era were completely different from the physicals that they are doing nowadays, where now it's probably a 100-page checklist, whereas then it probably was one page.

You can walk, you can talk.

-20/20-ish vision.

-[ Laughing ] Right.

-You can see across the room.

You can hear me talking?

-Can you hold the rifle?

-You're good to go.

-There you go.

-Yeah.

-Plus, we were trained to fight.

That's part of our combat engineer training, is learning how to fight, learn how to do what we had to do.

-Yeah.

-I can still do what I got to do.

-Good to know.

I'm going to save that for later on.

When the apocalypse comes and I'm in North Carolina, I'm going to Mr. Bobby's house.

He's got the Claymore land mines.

-Bobby, I want to circle back on something you said about when you started getting sick.

Can you talk a little bit about what was happening and how you discovered you were ill?

-When you fall down a flight of steps, you know something's wrong, especially when you blank out.

My wife questioned me and she said, "We'll go down and get you checked out."

Well, they checked me out.

Couldn't really find anything.

So, that went along.

I was okay with that.

Then I had another issue where I blank out again.

Come to find out, it's the dioxide chemicals, which I did not realize that I had that at the time.

It works on your nerves, so it gets in your nerves in here, your vertical nerves and whatnot.

And it would cause you to blank out.

-You're talking about Agent Orange?

-Yeah.

Yes.

See, all this time, like I said, we never talked about Vietnam.

Even the eight years I spent on the other side of Vietnam, we never talked about it.

Not even in any branch.

Nobody, absolutely nobody talked about Vietnam.

-Did you even know Agent Orange was a toxin at that time?

-Mnh-mnh.

-What were you told about that?

-I knew Agent Orange was supposed to kill the jungle, kill the weeds and all that.

But we did not know it was harmful to us.

'Cause our government told us it's not harmful, and we believed in our government.

-And they told the Koreans that too.

So, having been on this journey, the Korean vets who first went in, like, the Korean War, very much were the same thing.

-Yeah.

-They were given chemicals for the rice paddies and for the weeds and to be able to maintain, and they were told it was safe.

And now their struggle is, you have a whole generation of Korean vets who weren't in Vietnam, so it wasn't Agent Orange, it wasn't this, but they've had now toxic exposure, right, and had all these complications.

And, well, "You're fine.

It's not anything.

It's not connected to your service."

And then you go, "Well, my whole unit has..." -These issues.

-These issues.

-You said "on this journey."

What is "this journey," Elba?

-It's the new normal.

Man, I'm gonna cry.

Sorry.

So, you know, I always look at my service as, and the service, when you go into the services, the military took whoever you were, they took you and broke you down and remolded you into the vision that they needed, the military needed you to be, whether it was a demo, personnel, intel, photographer, whatever it was.

They remolded you into the vision of that.

So they took you down and remade you into a new, a different version of yourself, right?

So the journey is discovering, almost sometimes it feels every day what the new normal is, because, like you said, we don't have the exterior wounds.

We don't have the exterior issues.

2018, when he realized, "Oh, something from 1964 is now impacting me in 2018."

That's the journey.

It's trying to figure out and also staying positive in the journey and not feeling frustrated and negative and hateful and, like, taking away from an amazing experience as well, too.

That's the journey.

-I realize my wife has been carrying the insurance on me all these years, even when I was a German contractor.

She has carried me, and she said, "It costs a lot of money to carry you on my insurance."

-Mm-hmm.

-She said, "Why don't you go to VA?

Everybody talks about the VA. You need to go to VA." So I went down to VA, and they started doing blood work.

They started doing all kinds of stuff on me that was unreal, and I'm like... And as the day went on, I said, "Oh, we're through."

No, we've got another test.

[ Chuckles ] So, they run a lot of tests on me, and the doctor came back to me later on that afternoon.

He said, "It's going to take a while.

Give me about two weeks, and I'll get you the results from the tests."

I got the test result, and it shows that I was exposed to some chemicals.

-For your surgery and your sickness, was that military-related?

-Yes.

-Can you dive into that a little bit?

-That was when I had to have a partial hysterectomy because I was having such severe complications, gynecological issues, severe pain, bleeding.

Both of my children are infertility.

I had cervical cancer in 2000...

Son was born in '12, so I had cervical cancer in 2011.

And I was at peak health.

I actually ran the marathon in Rome.

And I only came back to the States -- I was stationed, I was deployed in Afghanistan, and we were doing the grand tour of Rome, and I only came back to the States because my company changed insurance providers.

And so I said, well, it's new insurance.

Let me go do a whole physical.

Three weeks later, results came back and said, "I need you to get to the doctor immediately."

And I was like, "What are you talking about?"

And they're like, "Your labs are -- everything's bad," immediately.

So I go to Dubai, and they're like, "Yep, you have to do -- you have to have surgery.

You have cervical cancer."

And it was one step short of a hysterectomy, so I was having to do a partial hysterectomy to relieve the pain.

And my doctor at that time, who was a civilian said, "I don't know how you've been existing."

-Mm-hmm.

-"How have you been managing?"

'Cause it was so -- I had such very -- endo and endometriosis and all that.

And I was like... And again, military mentality, stupid is stupid does.

What other choice do I have?

-Right.

So it took Bobby a number of decades to figure out the link between illnesses and Agent Orange.

What was the history behind your illness?

-It was a decade.

It was fully... Well, 'cause I got out of the service in 2007, and then it wasn't until I lost my life insurance due to -- not to my service, because they were really, really, really pointed to say, "Oh, it's not due to your service.

It's due to your medical conditions."

And then my response back was, "That I gained in service?"

Like, all of my medical conditions are service-connected.

Then I started going on to the journey of figuring out what's going on, right?

And my best friend saw an article and said, "Hey, parallel situations.

You're struggling with the VA. You're struggling with that.

Reach out."

And it happened to be the Freedom Stronghold Foundation, or Stronghold Freedom.

Sorry.

I always get those backwards The K2 veterans who were deployed to Uzbekistan.

I don't want to pronounce it wrong.

Karshi-Khanabad, something.

K2.

It was the base that wasn't supposed to be.

It was a forward operating base for special forces.

It was only supposed to last 180 days.

It lasted almost six years.

And when they leased that base from the Uzbekis, they knew that there was toxic exposure, and told nobody.

-What was exactly happening there?

-Yeah, the "they" also, too, being Department of Defense.

-Right.

-When they signed the lease, knew that it was there.

The Uzbekis had gotten it, obviously, from the Russians.

On the side of the base that was leased to the U.S. government, they had done chemical testing.

They had chemical masks, canisters, and it wasn't even, like, deeply buried.

It was, like, surface-level buried.

You know, we were set there, and a lot of it was support personnel, which was the worst.

Like, us who were operators or moving into theater, we were just using it as a hop-through, a jump-through.

The rest were Air Force support, Army support, you know, who were processing paperwork, making sure they had all the stuff that they were supposed to do, rotator flights and all that.

It was a black site for us to go into the various countries.

And then I found out the cot that I slept on was on top of yellow mustard.

And we had a pond -- there was a pond there that changed colors every day.

It was called Skittles Pond.

And there was a sign that said, you know, "hazardous" or "don't go in the pond" and all the various... And again, stupid is as stupid does.

We would see the hazard signs -- 'Cause people always ask me, like, "Well, you saw the hazards.

What did you think?"

And you're like, "Well, they weren't actively trying to kill me."

It was a passive trying to kill me.

Bombs and bullets weren't actively flying.

And so the mentality was, well, that's a 20-year problem.

I'll deal with that in 20 and 30 years.

And now here I am, 20 and 30 years, dealing with the problem.

-Well, I mean, if you think of things sort of passively -- I was at Camp Lemonnier '04, '05.

and they had a massive burn pit on the running trail.

It was, I think, like, a 5K running trail.

And every morning, I would get together with my Army buddies and we'd run the running trail, and it'd be black smoke just billowing over the running trail.

And every day, you would think the bells would start going off like, "Maybe I shouldn't be running here."

But that's military designated running area.

-Correct.

-On your deployment.

This is your choice.

If you're gonna stay fit, you have to stay fit, to fit to fight.

-Fit to fight.

-So just go ahead and run on through this black cloud.

What they were burning... -Everything.

-I've heard everything.

-Everything.

It was human feces, byproduct waste, which also, by the way, were Styrofoam plates, is what they gave us to eat off of.

So plastic forks, that's being burnt.

Water bottles, that's being burnt.

So, anything and everything got burned, right?

More so when you were in active theater, then it became medical waste, vehicle waste, and then incinerated with jet fuel or not, depending, like, if you had jet fuel.

some of that was a luxury.

For me, it was gasoline.

-But, you know, every FOB had a burn pit.

And it just never occurred to me at the time to think about it.

And you fast-forward in time, and I'm literally running from one plane to the next.

I'm late for a flight and just chucking it.

I get to the airplane.

I'm suddenly out of breath.

I've never been out of breath in my life.

Always been in very peak condition.

But I am, like, pouring down tears 'cause I can't breathe and I've got three flight attendants around me like, "Do we need to call the medic?

What's happening?"

I'm like, [hoarsely] "I got this."

Panicking a little bit, 'cause I'd never had an asthma attack.

So I went back to the VA to my primary care provider, who called it... What did you say it was, Ron?

-Physically induced asthma.

-How much do you see that?

-See that quite a bit, quite a bit.

Prior to the PACT Act, passing of the PACT Act, it was documented a lot in the medical records, even not necessarily active duty, but also in the VA or the outside providers.

And it was just strange that it would be a perfectly healthy person and all of a sudden, they have physically induced asthma, and it's -- the dots weren't connecting.

And eventually the PACT Act passed, and now we know why.

And we know the cause, and we know the reason.

We knew the reason, but now it's "we know the reason."

-Well, and the dots weren't connecting -- and Bobby said it -- because we were naively, they told us there was nothing wrong with it.

-Right.

-I have it in my medical records.

They gave us a memorandum of, "Oh, it's okay.

The toxins in the air, it's okay.

It's not causing... We've done -- Environmental has done a study, and you're fine."

Just like the people who lived on the flight line and they were doing, like, jet testing.

That's the next one, those poor kids who don't have ears.

"Oh, it's fine to be at that octave level.

It's within acceptable range.

You're fine.

Those chemicals are not"... And so, yeah, I guess naively, because, again, that's something passively, versus actively things that are trying to kill me, right?

And now we go back and we know they knew.

But I struggle with it really hard, because having been an intel analyst, I...

I made life-and-death decisions.

I specifically know people who did not come home based off of my intellectual guess, my educated guess.

So I understand the cost of war very profoundly and deeply.

And I call bull[bleep] on the whole, "Well, we just couldn't say anything.

You know, it was better to leave it alone.

The cost of war."

Because what the decades' worth of damage that has done to millions of people -- not just the active duty service members, but Bobby was talking about how people don't realize that these toxin exposures are just not us.

It's not first-tier.

It's generational, right?

Like you were saying your grandson?

-Yep.

My grandson.

Well, two grandsons has it.

-Have it.

And they're dealing with the byproduct of his chemical exposure going down now generationally, and now the VA isn't recognizing that that potentially could be an issue, because it's not spina bifida.

-So your grandson has... What's the name?

-All kinds of problems.

Kabuki Syndrome, which is from Southeast Asia.

Like I said, his father or my son-in-law's father was in Vietnam.

I was in Vietnam.

-He didn't have a chance.

And here's a boy who's probably never been to Southeast Asia, right?

Like, and he's got Kabuki syndrome, and VA's saying, "Well, prove to us that it's..." -Well, here's the thing.

Like, what do we got to do to prove it?

So, Ron, you're out there fighting every day.

Can you tell me what it's like to be in your shoes doing that?

-There's a wide range of emotions that is tied to it.

For one, it's frustration.

I think the number one is frustration, just by the conversation that we're having today.

When you're in their shoes and you've done it and you've got these debilitating diseases, and you have to prove it.

And there's only a couple of places that you could have got it from or a couple of reasons why you have it.

It's very frustrating, to the point where it fuels your fire to continue to fight, to continue to make sure that the veterans are getting their entitlements.

-Have you had a veteran die before you were able to get them?

-Yes.

-Is that more common than we think?

-It is.

It's more common than we think.

And unfortunately, the time involved in the process and the proving of, and sometimes the resources just aren't there, or the resources aren't willing to make those opinions or those medical decisions on what they think it is or what it could be.

And in the meantime, the onus is left to the veteran and their families to prove.

-You said it's the veterans, it's on the veteran to prove the connection?

-I'm sorry... -That's some bull[bleep].

-It's beyond some [bleep].

It's some hella bull[bleep].

-First thing is, you know, with all the symptoms that my grandsons have, fits right into to the system.

-Should be a common-sense decision.

Should be.

-It's still getting denied.

-Yeah.

-When they got denied three times, she gave up.

She gave up.

-Yeah.

And I keep saying, go back, go back.

You know, she's tired of dealing with the VA. -It does take -- It does take some fortitude.

-Well, there was that old saying, and it still, I think, reverberates today, is, "Deny, deny until they die."

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

-When I first started working for the VFW, a case comes to mind.

There was a veteran that I was assisting file a claim, navigate the process.

And during the process, unfortunately, he passed away, and leaving, obviously, the wife widowed.

She had no clue what to do, so she just kind of -- she kind of found her way around for about a year or so.

She just happened to stumble back into my office one day, because she was -- at that point, she was homeless.

She didn't have... She didn't know where to go, nowhere to turn.

And she remembered me and the conversation that, you know, that we had during our interviews, and she came back and we talked.

And during our conversation, I managed to see that her husband was in during a period of war, so that would entitle her to a pension benefit from the VA.

So we filed a claim for pension, and she ended up winning the case, getting a pension, and she got about a year of back pay.

So that was -- She was able to get off the street, get an apartment, and basically better her situation from just wandering in my office one day.

And once she got the benefit, she came back and... She was very appreciative of what I did for her.

She called me her guardian angel.

And it was...

It just blew my mind that I could just have that kind of impact on one person.

So, I said, if I could do it for one person, man, what can I do with all the veterans that I could help, so... -Bobby, what can you tell me about the Orange Heart Medal Foundation?

-Orange Heart Medal Foundation was founded by Mr. Ken Gamble in Springfield, Tennessee.

Like I said, he was in the hospital.

They had surgery on him for cancer.

And as he was laying in the hospital, he was thinking to himself, "What can I do for my veterans?

How can I help my veterans?"

In his head, he knew that we could not get a Purple Heart.

He knew that.

So he designed the Orange Heart.

Without this here.

He took it to his legislator.

He finally got the state of Tennessee as the first state to recognize the Orange Heart Medal.

We have nine states at present time.

-What's the kind of response you get when you present a Vietnam veteran with their medal?

-First of all, they didn't know nothing about it.

Then you tell them about the medal, and you tell them about what it meant.

And that veteran will look at you and thank you for recognizing that he was in Vietnam.

That's the recognition he's getting.

-And I would hope that with the passing of the PACT Act and the emphasis that's been on Agent Orange, that we would be over these hurdles, but it's still plaguing the veteran community.

-I think it plagues the veteran community too, because, you know, with the "deny, deny, hope they die," it makes a veteran and it makes their service ones and zeros.

It's a dollar amount.

The four of us are sitting here trying to take something that is extremely difficult and make it positive, right?

So, when you're dealing with "Deny, deny, and hope they die," it's real hard to hold onto that positive.

That's that journey, right?

It's real hard.

I can't -- I can't...

Sorry.

I 100% tie to the way the veterans are treated to the suicide death rate.

I 100% tie it to divorce rates, the domestic violence, all of that.

Like, you can't tell me that's not a substantial factor to what's going on, right, with these veterans.

I raised my hand.

We raised our hands.

We upheld our end of the contract.

Damn well, as well, too, right?

We got out with honorable discharges.

So for that to be, like...

It's such a disservice, because I upheld my end of my contract.

I wrote the value of a check for the value of my life 13 times for this country.

So now you're gonna tell me, "Oh, it's too expensive.

Oh, it's the cost of it.

Oh, we can't really prove it.

Oh, you can't do all of that."

But it's frustrating, because it feels very much like you factored the cost of a body bag, but you didn't factor the cost of taking care of me.

-If we have veterans sitting at home and they've been suffering in silence, because let's face it, the veteran community are some stubborn, stubborn people.

-Yes, we are.

-We were conditioned to just rub some dirt on it, keep pressing forward.

-So, for all those folks who are struggling at home, what should they know about the benefits that are waiting for them, about the kind of care they could be expecting to get if they came?

-What I would say is, I would strongly encourage them to apply for the benefit.

I would also strongly encourage them to seek out advocates, whether it be a service organization -- DAV, VFW, American Legion.

But we definitely want them to file claims.

The VA has come out and said that they want them to file claims.

It's hard to get them there, but if we could get them there, then the way I do it is, if I can get you into my office to sit down and have a conversation with you, by the time we're done with our conversation, hopefully, I would have convinced you that this is something that you're entitled to, that it's in your best interest to do this, not just for yourself, but for your family as well.

And one other thing that I would definitely say, because the services that we provide are completely free.

There's no charge to any service that we provide.

So there's no -- I mean, why wouldn't you just seek out that help?

And just know that we're here.

We're here to help, and we're here for free.

You don't have to be a member.

You have to be just a veteran.

We help all veterans that are seeking benefits, that are seeking help, no charge.

We're here for them.

And that's the main point that we want to know, want them to know, is that we're here.

We can help, and we will help.

-I love that.

How many Vietnam veterans are dying from Agent Orange every day?

-About 500-something a day.

-500 and some a day.

500 people, 500 human beings are dying a day.

-Yeah.

-While the government tries to figure it out.

-Yeah.

-That's appalling.

-Mm-hmm.

-And I hope that... -But let's put that in context, Stacy, because, like, here's the issue.

That number is appalling to us because we know that community.

But that to the general population, what makes that number any different from what they hear on the news?

-The difference, Elba, is if we got on the news tonight and we said 500 people were killed in Afghanistan, 500 people, 500 soldiers were shot in Iraq, 500 soldiers were killed in Somalia, that would be devastating.

How is it any different if it's 60 years later that people are dying from what they endured in combat?

-Absolutely.

-That, to me, is no different.

-No, I think -- I think... -I'm sorry.

I'm not getting mad at you.

I'm just getting mad at the situation and the sort of ambivalence about it.

-I feel the same way, but like, that's -- when I sat in a hearing committee and it was a lady from the VA, and she was like, "Well, prove, we have to prove."

It's when I realized at that point in time, there's such a desensitation to those numbers.

But you and I know, we all know, we know the ripples effect of those 500 people.

And that's the frustration that you deal with, right?

Like...I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to derail us on that one.

-Yeah, you're doing it.

You keep on.

[ Laughter ] -But that's what I mean.

For us, you know, we're in the thick of it, and he's the connector to help people.

-Obviously, we have a lot of work to do, and we have a long road ahead of us.

So I'm really thankful that you came and shared your stories with us, and I'm thankful for all that you're doing for all your fellow Vietnam veterans, Bobby, amazing work.

And, Elba, thank you for everything that you're doing with your veteran-to-veteran conversations.

Ron, all that you're doing with the VFW, and you've been doing that for 20-some years.

-22.

-22 years.

That's incredible work.

What I would like to do is take the opportunity to give you a chance to say to your loved ones some words of wisdom.

-What would I pass on?

I can't pass on nothing that I ain't already said.

But I just keep telling them what I'm going through.

You know, take it from me.

Look around.

See what's going on, feel it.

Don't hesitate to go to your doctors.

Don't hesitate to go to your veteran VA. Don't hesitate.

Do it.

-We're veterans.

We know the battle.

We can attest to it.

And we will damn sure fight for every benefit that they're entitled to.

-I struggle because I am actively ill and sick, and I have a 10-year-old and a 14 1/2-year-old.

And so I struggle because...

I don't do bullies, and I don't suffer fools well, right?

And so, for me, I focus a lot of my -- I want to focus a lot of my energy in being present with those who will tell my story.

Those are the stories that I want those that are around me to tell, because I don't want to have the energy of fighting, of validating what I'm going through and feeling constantly gaslit.

And so I think the biggest thing that I have to share is, it's okay to take a knee.

I had to take a knee last month.

I think we go through this whole time of being so used to pushing ourselves.

"Rub some dirt in it.

Drive on, soldier."

And so I think it is reminding those -- and I tell my kids that all time -- it's called space and grace.

Give yourself the space to have grace.

-Well, I appreciate each and every one of you.

And thank you for sharing.

-My pleasure.

Glad to be here.

Thanks for the invite.

-Thank you, everybody.

- There will be light There is a road Marching on Coming home