After Action

-There's an old saying in the service -- "If the military wanted you to have a family, they would have issued you one."

-Hi, Opal.

-Despite that trope, over 40% of service members have kids.

When "service before self" is a military mantra, the family's needs often come second to Uncle Sam's.

Hi, I'm Stacy Pearsall, retired Air Force staff sergeant, and today I'm sitting down with Bill Brokop, Hannah Merchant, and "Coco" Gunther, three veterans who balance the needs of a nation with needs of the family during and after action.

How was the reunion with your kids when you came home?

-Probably the most emotional experience I ever had.

I'm even thinking about it now, like getting choked up about it.

But I felt -- I felt a little bit guilty and terrible being downrange.

I felt like we didn't have any support at all.

-Were there any, like, major milestones -- your children learning to walk, learning their first word, or saying their first word during those sort of formidable periods?

-Miles missed Aveline's birth.

He was deployed.

And I still don't think he's ever forgiven himself for that.

Dealing with that was really tough because everything landed on my shoulders.

-How did you cope?

-I'm not really sure I did cope.

You know, just doing it all yourself, you know?

You know what I mean?

It was tough.

And I think even now, I'm still getting over that.

So... -I really missed them.

They were on my mind like every day, every day, every minute, you know?

-I can imagine.

-Yeah.

-But did you have any sort of, like, visual, like video chat or anything?

-No.

-So it was all just phone calls or letters?

-Yeah.

E-mail.

-I feel like that would be so hard.

-Yeah.

I never would want them to hear, you know, "Hey, I made a mistake by going" because I don't think I did.

It was hard.

You know, you just want your kids to be proud of you.

- There will be light There is a road Marching on Coming home [ Rotors whirring ] [ Birds chirping ] - [Presenter] Major funding for "After Action" is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

With the generosity of individuals, corporations, and foundations, the Endowment is proud to sponsor "After Action".

-Bill, Coco, welcome to LowCountry Acres, and, Hannah, welcome back.

Now, I think it's really, really important to say Hannah is a producer of "After Action."

I had my studio set up because I do the Veterans Portrait Project, and that's when I learned so much of her story, which is why we're doing this episode really today.

So let's kick this conversation off a little bit with some more background.

Bill, can you just tell me a little bit about your military history, where you're from and what was your journey like in the service?

-I joined the Air Force in 1991.

I was two weeks from being 18 years old, graduated high school and went right into the Air Force.

I grew up in a small town called Frankfort, Illinois, just south of the city of Chicago.

My Air Force career was amazing.

I mean, every time I think about it, it makes me smile.

I did 22 years, retired in 2012.

-That's a long time.

-It felt like a long time.

-Do you remember, like, down to the day and hours?

Most people who get to that retirement point are like... -21 years, 5 months, 31 days.

-Wow.

-But who was counting really?

Not me.

-Not you.

Air Force veteran Bill Brokop was told by a medical professional that he could not have children.

So imagine his surprise and elation when his wife discovered she was pregnant and just before a combat deployment, no less.

He made it home in time to witness his son's birth, assuming parenting duties so his wife and fellow airmen could deploy.

So tell me, how did you -- how did you meet your significant other?

-My career started in a little bit of a different situation.

So when I went in, I was satcom, and then I got kind of morphed, you know, through a series of mergers into combat comm.

And the second time I deployed was to Kyrgyzstan, and I went over in November of '02.

Kyrgyzstan was cold.

It was real cold.

And we were tasked with picking up new arriving pax from the pax terminal because we had a pickup truck.

So 3: 00 in the morning, we get woken up, we go pick up the bags, and there's this short, blond-haired lady in the pack.

She was -- She stuck out.

That's all I'm going to say.

She stuck out.

And she had an accent like mine.

You know, the Midwestern, no-accent accent.

-Yeah.

-And I recognized that she was one of my people.

And we went to drop her off at her tent.

I put her bags on the ground, and she said, "Man, it's really cold, and where's the freaking bathroom?"

And I was like, "Okay, a simple thank you would suffice, but it's over there."

And a few weeks later, she came to take pictures of my crew.

We were installing some communication lines, and 20 years later.

-Aw.

-Coco, what about you?

What's your origin story for the military?

-I come from Idaho.

Nampa, Idaho.

I was born there, and I was 25 when I enlisted.

So I went to basic training.

They told me what my job was going to be, and I had no clue what it was because the name was audio/visual documentation production specialist.

And I'm like, "What is that?"

You know, I had no clue.

And it ended up being probably such an adventure and what a great job.

I tell people all the time, like you, that I just -- I love the Air Force.

I love what I did.

You know, we got to see all aspects of every branch of service.

-Coco Gunther is the quintessential mother hen who expertly dispenses punishments and praise, a skill she's honed over years of supervising Air Force enlistees on base and three kids of her own at home.

Juggling both commitments meant she was here, there, and everywhere, and yet somehow she managed to make everyone feel like they were the most important person in her life.

-I met my husband in Minot, North Dakota.

My first duty station was Patrick Air Force Base.

Then they sent me to Minot, North Dakota, and my husband was their TDY.

Well, not husband then, but guide.

[ Laughs ] And that's where we met, in North Dakota.

And then we went to Italy after that, and then California and then back to Europe.

And then here -- we ended up in Charleston.

And yeah, I retired in two thousand-- the very end of 2010.

-What about you, Hannah?

Where are you from?

-I'm from a small town in western PA. You know, our population is like 600 maybe, if that, and I joi-- I mean, I joined the service for so many reasons, but I think ultimately it came down to I just wanted to get out of there.

There was nothing there for me.

-Mother of two and Marine Corps wife Hannah Merchant never complains when her husband gets recalled, drills on weekends, or stays late, or even deploys.

When a kid gets sick or child care falls through, she handles the situation.

She holds down the fort so her husband can focus on the mission.

After all, she knows sacrifice.

As a marine veteran, she pledged to always put service before self.

-I chose the Marine Corps because I decided I wasn't going to talk to any other branch, so I don't -- I never knew what any other branch had to offer, but I mean, it worked out and I'm so grateful I did.

So I joined the Marine Corps, went to boot camp in 2014, and my MOS was motor transportation operator.

-And so at what point did you meet your significant other?

-Uh...I met him -- Well, I saw him in the field for the first time, and, you know, I was with our -- We had a mutual friend, and he basically introduced us.

And that was in I want to say November of 2015.

-Mm-hmm.

Well, it goes without saying that being a parent in the military and having a significant other aren't mutually exclusive.

So were any of you a single parent at any point in time?

-I was, yes.

-Okay.

-From Patrick to Minot, I found out I was pregnant with my first child.

It was a challenge, but it was doable.

I had so much support.

I have to say, I haven't had -- I don't really have horror stories, you know, about having to juggle.

They were very supportive.

It was hard.

It was challenging.

There were times where, you know, you still stress about child care and if they're in the right place.

And -- But we did it.

You know, we worked it out.

-Were you still required to go TDY and to deploy being a single mother?

-Well, Minot was kind of a different animal.

We were part of the comm squadron.

The longest I was away from her was 21 days when we went to exercise a long ways away, you know?

-So how old was she then?

-She was about almost three, I think.

So I had support from, you know, people in my shop and stuff.

And Minot's almost like a remote because it's so isolated.

So you become family, you know, just like in Europe or anywhere else with your coworkers.

And she knew everybody.

So we had pretty much family there that, you know, were able to help me out and take her.

And she would feel at home.

It wasn't strangers, you know, that she was with and stuff.

So it worked out.

But that was hard.

I mean, I missed her, and then I did get orders to combat camera in Korea, so that stressed me out a lot.

-What did you do?

-Well, my sister in California was like, "I'll take her."

You know, we had everything going.

She set up a bank account.

She had -- You know, everything worked out for me, which I can't thank her enough.

And I was getting everything prepared, going down the checklist, you know, getting ready to PCS.

And my orders got canceled.

So it was one of those -- You know, I dodged it, but I would have made it work.

But it's also having that support there and making sure because, you know, she's the most important thing in my life.

So I had to make sure that she was going to be well taken care of.

-Well, and a short remote is what, a year?

-Yes.

-That would have been intense.

-Yeah.

-Leaving your kid behind for a year.

But for a while there, deployments were so frequent.

And depending on what branch of service you are or what unit you were with, the length of time would change and how often you were going.

Did any of you deploy being parents?

-When I got stationed in Sumter, that's when I feel like most of my deployments kicked off.

Well, that's not totally true, but I became part of an ASOS, an air support operations squadron, and that was after we started having kids.

Ashley was stationed down at combat camera, and I was at the ASOS, and I was driving back and forth between Sumter and Summerville.

She was pregnant with Wesley.

And this is '04, and I was due to deploy in January of '05.

I went downrange with an understanding that I'd be back before he was born, and I was on a three-month.

I was over in Iraq.

She was in Summerville.

You said you had support.

I felt like we didn't have any support at all.

And that was getting ready to have her, like, go through labor and delivery.

She started having contractions early.

Had to go to the hospital on her own.

She didn't -- I mean, she was pretty new to the unit too, so there weren't really anybody there.

There wasn't really anybody there.

We didn't know anybody in Summerville.

Once Wesley was born, I deployed again a little bit later, and I mean, it was tough being downrange.

And I went from being on a 100-day the first time to a eight-month the second time.

It was a big adjustment to be downrange that long.

-So how did you cope?

Like, what were some of the mechanisms you had in place to stay connected?

-It wasn't super easy.

So, I was in Kabul the second time when I deployed, and they had -- I mean, 2010, it wasn't like we didn't have the Internet, but video chat and stuff like that just wasn't possible on the network that we had.

The network wasn't good enough.

So luckily I was -- I did communications, so we had a satellite phone, so I was able to make satellite phone calls, but that was really the only communication I had with my family for like eight months was satellite calls.

We tried to do one video call at the morale tent, and it was more frustrating than it was anything else.

So it was just phone calls.

Sometimes I could call every day, and sometimes it was once a week, maybe once every other week.

-Hannah, what about you?

Any separation from the family or your spouse?

-Yes.

Miles was with 2/8.

So he's with division infantry, and he was gone all the time.

Most of the time it was just Aveline and I. I think -- I mean, looking at it now, Aveline's gonna be seven, Whalen's going to be four.

I think more of their lives than not, he has been either away -- training ops, deployment -- or the past three years he was a drill instructor, so he really wasn't home at all.

He was home, but he wasn't.

So dealing with that was really tough because everything landed on my shoulders.

-How did you cope?

-Um, I'm not really sure I did cope.

I think mostly it was just trying to make it through day to day.

Especially when he was -- Like, when he was gone and he was deployed, I would honestly say for us and my schedule, it was easier because I knew he was gone.

It was just us we were going to worry about.

You know, when he was a drill instructor, he would come -- he would leave at like 3:00 a.m. and then he would be home, you know, 8:00 or 9:00 at night most days.

And so it was kind of like a tease, you know, like, okay, he'd be home for a little bit, but then, you know, he wouldn't have much to give.

And what he did give, it went to the children because when we started, you know, when we got down to Beaufort, our kind of agreement was that what he did have, he would give to the kids because at that time I was like, "They need it more than I do."

But I didn't realize until almost the whole way through that three years that I was, like, very resentful and mad, and, you know, that was like the hardest time of our marriage, of our relationship was those three years, because in some sense, I just -- I knew it wasn't his fault, but, you know, maybe it was that agreement, but I was like, you know, "I take care of everyone.

I do everything, I'm working, I'm going to school.

All this is falling on my shoulders."

And there was no one there for me.

And so it was -- My daughter saw me cry a lot during those three years because, you know, just doing it all yourself.

You know.

You know what I mean.

-Mm-hmm.

-It's tough.

It's mentally exhausting.

And I think even now, I'm still, um... getting over that.

So... -You sacrificed a lot for your children.

And let's face it.

You joined the military, you raised your right hand, and you laid your lives on the altar of freedom.

And that's a lot in itself.

But I don't think anybody really knows what that -- what that absolute toll is.

-Yeah.

-So I'm curious, Hannah, you got pregnant, and so you had to make a decision about taking on that role and making a further sacrifice.

Can you talk me through that decision, too?

-So when I was 8 to 10 months out from either re-enlisting or getting out, so I was starting on my re-enlistment package.

I was going to stay in.

I wanted to stay in.

I loved my job.

There were things I hated about the Marine Corps, but there were things I loved, too, and I knew, like, the safety net, like it was steady income.

I could help support our daughter.

And it just occurred to me one day.

I was like, "I can't do this.

I can't leave her.

She's my whole world."

And I didn't feel like I was strong enough to deploy or leave her for training ops.

And so I told Miles.

I was like, "I'm -- I can't re-enlist, I can't do this."

And so he was like, "Okay, like, if you don't want to re-enlist, you know, that's fine."

He being with 2/8 and him being gone all the time, I just felt like she needed stability.

You know, if we were constantly coming and going, and his family's from Alabama and mine's from Pennsylvania, so we didn't have anyone.

I just felt like it was the right choice for our kids and in myself, you know, and I don't regret it most days.

But there's some days when I -- He comes home and talks about work and I'm like, "Shoot.

I remember that."

You know, I remember those days, that camaraderie you have going through the suck together.

But it's also been great.

It's also been great getting out.

And I get to spend so much time with my kids.

And, you know, I have got two, and they're my world, so... -Now, Bill, you were dual service as well and in a similar situation in that deployments -- both of you were in deployable units.

Can you describe to me how those decisions panned out?

-Yeah.

Wesley was born in 2005, and I think it was within six or eight weeks that there was earthquakes in Pakistan.

And so, you know, you know, when a woman gives birth, she has the six weeks of maternity leave, and then they have a deferment from a deployment for up to six months I think it is.

But it doesn't preclude you from going on TDY.

So long as it's not considered a deployment, you can be sent anywhere to support a contingency.

Well, she was part of combat camera.

And she got called on to go do a thing on the Pakistan earthquakes.

So I was driving back and forth between Sumter, South Carolina, and Summerville, like I said.

And here she gets orders to go to Pakistan.

Wesley is still nursing, and she's having to go do this thing.

We managed to make it through that.

I said we didn't have a lot of help, but we had these fantastic next-door neighbors where we lived in Summerville that I would drop Wesley off at 4:00 in the morning, get in my vehicle, drive to Sumter.

I was a PT leader, so I had to be there at 6:30 to start PT, then I'd work till 4:30, get in the car, drive back to Summerville, pick him up.

He'd be with a babysitter from 4:00 until about 5:30 or 6:00 in the evening.

Assume dad role.

I remember several nights he and I would fall asleep on the couch.

Like, I would just be exhausted.

We made it through that one.

But ultimately Ashley sacrificed her career for mine really.

I think it was a very valiant thing that she chose to do.

She stayed at combat camera for a while, and we realized me being a highly deployable unit and her being a highly deployable unit just wasn't going to be possible for us to sustain a family.

I never, ever wanted her to have to give up her dream.

And she had a dream of going to Syracuse.

She wanted to be a PJ.

And within that first year, we both realized, just like you and your husband, like, we're not going to be able to handle this.

This is just not sustainable.

In addition to her being TDY, I was going TDY.

So she'd get back.

I'd go.

I was just learning how to do a new job.

So I was constantly going back and forth.

And then she got tapped for another TDY to support Rita and Katrina.

And then we were like, "Okay, this is enough."

And we put in what they call joint spouse so she can move from Charleston to Sumter.

But I felt -- I felt a little bit -- I mean, I felt guilty and terrible that the whole reason that she went to combat camera was to be this, you know, photojournalist.

And here I was kind of robbing her of her opportunity to do what she, like -- her -- I mean, it was her goal.

I mean, this was something she really worked hard for.

I felt terrible about it.

And then she goes -- and no offense to anybody that was in a photo lab, right -- but she goes from being a combat photographer, I mean, like a bona fide badass.

Went to three survival schools.

I mean, more than most.

I didn't go to survival school.

Here, she's doing all these survival schools.

To Sumter to be in a... base photo lab, taking grip-and-grin pictures.

You know, I mean, it was like -- I felt terrible for her that she was giving up her dreams of, you know, an Air Force career just to support me and mine.

That was one of the sacrifices we decided to make, though.

-Yeah.

Obviously, you know, making such decisions, One's career, military career over family, that's got to be really, really challenging.

The grass is always greener no matter what side you're looking at it.

So I'm curious, Coco, you did both.

Can you tell me a little bit about what those challenges were for you riding that line?

-Well, after we got married, we PCS'd to Aviano, and it was during a big campaign there, Kosovo and stuff.

So there was a big air campaign, and we went to 24/7 shifts and, you know, we didn't see each other.

And I think about it now and it's, you know, we would high-five each other, and somehow we worked it, you know, and the kids were fine, but I had a new baby, and then my oldest, Adriana.

And somehow we made it work.

It's really a blur to me now that I think back on it.

But we were exhausted, you know, and we did it, but we weren't TDY.

We were there and just, you know, working constantly.

And then we didn't see each other, but that lasted, you know, however long that campaign was.

Dwayne made chief.

And then we went to Germany, Ramstein.

It's a whole nother animal.

And Dwayne was on the USAFE IG team, so he was their chief, and he was gone, you know, half a month, all the time.

He was just constantly gone.

So I had another baby, my youngest, and then the other two.

So I had three kids and they, you know, rolled with me.

It's like if I got recalled, they got recalled and I had their bags packed all the time, and we both knew each other's jobs.

So we made it work.

You know, thankfully it did work, but it was hard.

And it was even harder like when he would get home and then mess up my schedule.

[ Chuckling ] You know?

And it's like, that's not how we do stuff.

All the kids would sleep with me, you know?

And then Dad's home.

You got to go.

-You guys are laughing.

Is it the same?

-Oh, yeah.

When he has duty, they're in bed with me, and it's my favorite.

My favorite night because I get to cuddle with them.

-Yeah.

-Obviously most people look at the woman being the sort of more matron of the house and the one who oversees the children and things like that.

Does it skew that way in a military household, too?

-I -- Yeah, kids were mine pretty much.

-It didn't before Ashley separated.

I mean, I was very engaged with the kids also because she would go TDY just as much as I did.

You said high-fiving.

I mean, we had a few a few TDYs like that.

I'd get back, she'd leave.

She'd get back, I'd leave.

I was engaged with the kids.

Changed a lot of diapers.

-Dwayne did.

He was a good helper.

He was.

But when, you know, kids are drawn to their moms, you know.

-Yeah, that's a fact.

-But yeah, you know, and then when I deployed, of course he had all the kids.

-How did that go?

-He -- I came back.

He's like, "I really appreciate everything you do."

[ Laughter ] He's like, "I didn't realize how much you did."

And, you know, it's like -- it's good to hear that sometimes because I think you get in your routine and you don't realize they don't realize.

But also, my eldest daughter was a big help too, so he appreciated that.

-So we're talking deployments now.

What is it like to be the one to stay or the one to go and be away from the family or the one supporting the family?

Can you define those roles for me?

-I wouldn't say I didn't have an appreciation for what Ashley did while I was going to Afghanistan, but I definitely had to, like, turn off my, like, dad mode to try to solve things.

There was nothing more detrimental to a conversation on the phone than when I tried to solve things for her, because it wasn't like -- What am I going to do, spank him over the phone, you know?

But it was -- I think it was difficult for her to transition when I got back.

When I got back, you know, I wanted to get instantly plugged back in to where I was.

And, you know, like you both said, you have your routine, right?

And then here comes Dad breaking into the routine, screwing things up like, you know, trying to change the rotation of things, and coming back in and trying to figure out where I fit into the puzzle was hard, too, because I wanted to be fully engaged, but then I'd screw up the rotation.

So that wasn't super ideal.

And then the kids are trying to adjust to you again after being gone for, you know, eight months.

I mean, it's tough on them too, because they're not sure who to look to for the guidance, the discipline, the support.

Like, who's going to feed me, who's going to change my diaper?

They're like, you know, they're looking at you.

And mine were young when I got back after eight months.

I mean, Wesley was only five, Betsy was not quite four, and Abby was a little over a year.

So it was like, these kids are looking at me like, "What are you going to do for me?

You haven't been around for eight months."

Like, "I'm going to go to her."

-But as a dad, was that coming home and that transition of trying to become attached to the kids again, was it harder because naturally, like, from my experience, kids just gravitate, like you said, towards their mom.

Did you feel like you had to try even harder?

-Yeah, I did feel like I had to try harder.

The kids just weren't naturally... -Especially at that age.

-Right.

Accustomed to me doing anything for them or being the one that they could snuggle when they felt terrible or, you know, had a stomachache or whatever.

I tried to then make, like, intentional moves to, like, get up early.

So when the kids -- Our kids got up early and so since I was the one getting up to go to work, I'd get up and I'd get them milk and I'd get them settled down.

And the TV was a was a big thing that we did together.

We'd sit down and watch, you know, "Mickey Mouse Clubhouse" or something before I had to go to work.

But I tried to be really intentional about being the one that made those touch points.

And then it would also let Ashley have a little bit more time to sleep in, because she was exhausted from dealing with them for eight months.

I mean... -I guess I can see both sides, you know, him being gone and then coming back and, you know, being in the way.

And then when I came back, it's like, yeah, I wanted -- "You're not doing it the way I do it."

You know, that's because as Mom, you know, the house is pretty much our domain and we kind of run it.

And he was running things differently than I would have done it, and it was frustrating.

It was really frustrating for me.

But -- And then just, you know, being back from deployment anyways, where we get from you're kind of angry anyways sometimes can be.

So yeah, it was a little bit frustrating, but the kids, you know, I think it's different when Mom comes back than when Dad comes back.

I don't know, but my kids were.

-Why?

-Because I'm Mom.

I don't know, naturally, they just gravitate towards me, you know?

But still appreciating Dad, and Dad still did a lot for them, but it was quite a transition coming back.

It was hard.

-When you said that, you know, you had that anger, was it like, because you maybe were more like you didn't have the patience and you had to readjust to, like, just the patience of having little kids really?

-No, it was the environment when you are in a whole different world.

You know, different country, different environment, different things around you.

-Mm.

-When you come home -- and I don't mean this derogatory, it's just the reality of it -- you know, little things that people think are important just seem so petty.

-Okay.

-And it's just like, "Why are you worried about that?

You know, it's not that big of a deal."

So, you know, just that.

-Yeah.

-Nothing to do with the children, just life itself.

So just trying to adapt to all of that.

It's a lot coming at you.

-You don't have a lot of time to decompress either.

You're like, you know, you're coming back from a -- I mean... -A war zone.

-I know for me, I was in a combat environment, you know, and it's like you literally -- I mean, I had nine hours bus ride from Beaufort back to Sumter, get off a bus and you're greeted with your family.

And it's like, I mean, you want to be part of it, but it's also like you're still kind of processing through the crap you saw downrange.

You know, it's like, um... -I can't imagine that and not having that decompressing time because, I mean, Miles, you know, when he was a drill instructor, different situation, but he needed that, that decompressing time.

When he came home and he went upstairs to shower or whatever, he'd take like 30 minutes, you know, just to "Alright.

Like, I'm not going to scream at the kids.

That's not my role.

They're not recruits."

And it's just so crucial, I think, to have that decompression time.

And you would think that they would put that into some transitional piece of you guys coming back home.

-When you come home from deployment, you have to fill out the surveys, and the last thing you want to do is say that you saw anything bad or experienced anything bad, or you're feeling anything bad because that's only going to delay seeing your families.

Would you have answered a little more truthfully on those surveys, knowing what you know now, and would you have taken the time to give yourself that space?

-That's a hard one.

-Would that have changed any of the dynamics or transitions?

-I don't think for me.

Well, maybe.

But I just wanted to get back to my kids.

You know, if they had told me, "Okay, you obviously need some downtime or decompression time," that would have been hard for me, I think, because even when we were waiting to get back and we're at another base out of Iraq, that was hard because you're not doing anything.

You're just waiting for your flight to go home.

That could be, you know, five days or four days or whatever.

And that was hard.

So I don't know.

I don't -- Hindsight, I probably would just want to get home to my kids as fast as I could, and my husband, of course.

-I don't think I would have done it any different.

I wanted to see my kids so bad.

Man, after being gone for that long, it was like I just -- I wanted to smell them, you know?

They just have, like, a distinct smell.

-The little kid babies.

-Yes.

-I'm curious what tactics y'all used with your children or use with your children to keep them connected with the military member that's out of the house.

Any little things that you do?

- FaceTime was a blessing because we were able to talk regularly.

For the most part, the time zones were different or send pictures instantly.

Daddy Doll was a big thing for my kids.

They had a picture of, you know, Miles, and they put on this like pillow doll, and the back had a little special little place for, like, little letters and things he would send.

And that was incredible because they got to hold -- I'm sorry -- They got to, like, hold him and, like, hug him in a sense, you know?

-I sent pictures and little souvenirs home.

I didn't want the kids to forget who I was.

I mean, that was a bona fide thing.

I mean, you know, um... -Did they?

-No, of course not.

They knew who I was.

Abby was a little bit -- Abby was the youngest.

She had, like I said, just turned one.

And I left when she was about six months old.

She was the one that was looking at me like, "I'm not sure I know who you are just yet."

Wesley for sure knew who I was, and Betsy was pretty excited I was home, but yeah, Abby, I think was a little bit like.

"I don't know who you are exactly," but she -- I think I smelled right, so she took right to me.

-I love that.

-Coco, I was wondering, you know, you were in Iraq going outside the wire from time to time, seeing some pretty bad stuff.

Was there any moment during your deployment where you thought, "Why am I doing this?"

-If I did, it was fleeting because it's hard to go there when you're surrounded by people that you care about and you know that you can't let your guard down and you have a job to do.

So I think I thought about how they looked at me.

I want to say, you know, my kids were proud of me, and, um...

I never would want them to hear, you know, "Hey, I made a mistake by going" because I don't think I did.

It was hard, but, um... You know, you just want your kids to be proud of you.

And so I'm glad I did it.

I hated being away from them.

And I always asked them, you know, "Did you feel like I abandoned you?"

And I know it was toughest on, well, the two little ones.

I think it was hard on them the most.

But my eldest is was like, "Mom, I always thought you were there.

You know, I never felt like we were neglected or abandoned," which I'm so grateful for.

And I think they all do feel like that.

But it was hard on them, you know, to be gone.

So, no, I don't think I ever went there.

-I never did.

I mean, I was in a leadership position too, and I felt like at that point in my career, that was when I really understood what it means when they say leaders go first.

-Mm-hmm.

-It doesn't mean you do the best stuff.

Sometimes it means you do the worst stuff, sometimes the hardest stuff to shield your people that are under you from enduring that garbage.

And I had a lot of young guys that were under me when I was in Afghanistan, so I didn't want to subject them to that.

So if I could go in their place, I would.

It was the same thing with being a volunteer for that last deployment.

I was like -- I was able and capable, so why should I not go?

You know, it was -- I felt like I had a sense of duty.

-Hannah, you have a unique perspective because you were in the military and so you know volunteering for things is sometimes a necessity, you know?

I mean, other people may look at it like, "My husband just volunteered for another TDY.

Why would he do that?"

But I think you, having seen both sides of the curtain, you have a unique point of view.

And for dependents who've never worn the uniform, that can be probably very confusing why somebody who has two kids at home or three kids at home or three kids at home would say, "Yeah, send me, I'll go."

Can you kind of walk me through how that feels sometimes being in both communities and maybe help us or help those who are listening that haven't worn the uniform, who are wives or who are loved ones and family members and support network and just maybe help understand that decision making?

-One thing that Miles always, you know, told me was he wants to be the one there, you know, because if anything were to go wrong for any reason on any, you know, training op, deployment, even being in the drill field, it was like you want to be there for the ones below you.

Everything that he has done hasn't been for, you know, the higher-ups or himself.

It's been for the junior Marines and helping them and making them better and taking care of them.

So, you know, when I think of the things he's, you know, "Yeah, I'll come in, I'll do that or whatever," I usually put myself in the position of that junior Marine because, you know, not all of us have great leadership.

I had some great leadership and I had some awful leadership.

And I always wished when I had the awful leadership that I would have had someone like him ultimately be my corporal, be my sergeant, be my NCO and be there to help me or lead me down the right track.

So I think looking at it in that perspective is like they're there, h's there.

It's like having kids, in a sense.

I mean, you know.

-It is.

-You have these Marines below you, and you just -- you want to be there for them.

And I think when he was a drill instructor, he had these recruits tell him like, "You're like the father figure I never had."

And, you know, when I hear things like that or when I read on the back of his platoon photo that someone had wrote that to him, it reminds me that, like, all the time that he spent away, like, was for a good reason.

-Mm-hmm.

-So I think when you look at it that perspective, it makes it easier when they're not home.

-You've sacrificed that part of your significant other for the sake of a hundred others.

What are you doing to fulfill yourself?

Or -- Obviously that's got to be a really, really big challenge.

So what are you doing to maintain your happiness?

-I don't know.

I don't know if I figured that out yet.

I mean... -That's fair.

-My job, I love what I do.

It makes me happy.

Being around the kids makes me happy.

It's the little things, like the cup of coffee in the morning, you know, fills my cup a little bit, you know, and it -- I haven't -- I really haven't figured it out yet.

And I think someday I will, but for now, it's just really being grateful for the little things and taking a moment to just take a step back and be like, "We have a great life, you know?"

-Do your kids know that you were in the military?

[ Laughter ] -No.

Well, my son, he's three, so he's a little too little, too small to really understand any of it.

But my daughter, she's just -- She makes no sense to me.

She's seen pictures of me in uniform, but for the life of her, she cannot grasp the fact that I was in the Marine Corps.

But she also, like, I take with a grain of salt because she thinks I produce "SpongeBob" and "Teen Titans."

[ Laughter ] -That's great.

-Now, Bill, your son is going into the military.

And I'm curious, after all that you've been through, obviously everybody has said they've had a really satisfying military career, but it was not without its challenges.

-Right.

-And we obviously want to set our kids up for success.

-Right.

-Have you told Wesley all the good, bad and ugly?

-All of it?

-You have to.

-I did.

Ever since we could remember, Wesley's wanted to go into the Air Force.

Like, he's always wanted to be a military kid.

I think a lot of that was because I didn't -- I didn't come home from work every night and complain about it.

Like even, you know, through all the difficulties and adversity, like, I still love my Air Force career.

Every time I think about it, it makes me smile.

Like every time I go to tell them a story, it's always like I have really great memories.

And I've shared the garbage with him.

You know, I've shared some of the horror stories.

But I think it's a balance of good and bad.

Or at least my career was a balance of good and bad.

He is very well aware of what he's getting himself into, and he digests podcasts like crazy.

So, you know, that's the new form of all things media, so it's like... -I got to agree with Wesley.

I like a good podcast.

-Yeah.

-Me too.

-I mean, he listens to podcasts all day long.

I don't know if my experiences would measure up to the stuff that he listens to in podcasts, but everything I tell him, I mean, sure, it was tough.

He knows his mom got out.

He doesn't really remember when she served.

Betsy really doesn't remember when I served, I mean, to be honest.

You know, like I said, I retired in 2012, and she was six.

So she doesn't really have that much of a memory of it.

Abby doesn't.

I mean, she was at my retirement, but she's like, "I don't know."

-I want to switch gears really quick and talk a little bit about how do you feel that parenting in the military differs from being a parent outside of the military?

-One, you're -- it's a moment's notice.

You know, you have to be prepared all the time to say, "I got to go."

And I don't think there's a lot of civilian jobs that are like that.

I mean, I'm sure there are, but that's most military people, you know, have to be prepared to go.

So you have to have your ducks in a row and a plan, always a plan, you know, and that with...

If Dwayne and I even had a plan, like if we both get deployed, where are our kids going to go?

And, you know, the same sister that said she was going to take my oldest when I was going to Korea was like, "That's not even a question.

I'll take your kids.

Of course they'll come here."

And, you know, so you just -- you have to have a plan constantly.

-First responders, I think, are probably the only civilian equivalent that has the same sort of unscheduled type of situation.

I mean, of course, beyond being a volunteer to lay down your life for your country, I mean, I don't know that it's even remotely close to being a civilian.

It's so unscripted.

I mean, there's like... -Good word.

-Yeah.

I don't know if I can come up with a better word than unscripted.

You never know what's going to happen.

-I just think of -- and I mean, I know there's jobs out there like this in the civilian world, but just being gone all the time, you know, and being gone all the time, missing out on the good things, that's like a thing that people take for granted all the time.

But it's freaking awesome when your significant other's home regularly.

-You know what I'm hearing is really interesting because -- I mean, obviously each and every one of you has sacrificed so much in that process.

And we talk about the kids not really remembering a lot of it, which is -- I wonder if that's a saving grace In some ways.

-I think it is.

I think for sure.

I mean, I know in our situation, I made the decision to retire at the point that I did because I knew that the impact on the kids later on was going to be much harder.

I could have stayed.

I mean, I retired kind of prematurely.

I probably could have made senior if I would have really tried.

I'll go back to something you talked about earlier, like I was a willing volunteer all the time to go downrange, but also there was a part of me that wanted to make our family situation better, and the only way you could do that was getting promoted.

And to get promoted you had to go downrange.

You had to get decorations, things like that.

-Mm.

-There's obviously a lot of like spousal-support organizations and things like that.

And I'm wondering, we have communities on base, you know, our unit communities, you know.

One is the child development center.

-Yeah.

-CDC.

-Yeah, the CDC.

How supportive were these infrastructures for you and how supportive were the civilian offerings off base?

-Well, let me tell you.

-Yes.

Tell us all about it.

-The first CDC that Aveline went to was great.

It was fantastic.

We were dual military, so we had top priority.

She got in right when I needed daycare.

And then when I got out and started going to school and then started working, it was like, you get bottom of the list, you know, pretty much because only one person's active military.

-Well, what does that mean for the nonmilitary parent though?

Like the parents, the nonmilitary parent, it always seems that it falls back on them to pick up the kid that's sick or to be the one who stays home from work and takes the vacation day because, you know, Uncle Sam's priorities take priority.

-Right.

-Mm-hmm.

-Has that always been the case in the instances?

I mean, you've led troops yourselves too.

I mean, you've probably seen that from other points of view.

-Oh, yeah.

And it's like I've never been, you know, working outside of the home.

It's like I, you know, ignorantly it was like, "How hard can this be," you know?

compared to what your husband or your wife or what we do here.

It's hard, you know.

It's like retiring and then being home with the kids.

It is hard.

It's a hard job.

So I applaud all the spouses that stay home to run the household and take care of them.

It is a thankless, you know, have-to-do, priority job, you know?

So... -It's like those people who always ask, like, "How do you do it?"

And it's like, "What do you mean?"

You know, we don't have a choice.

-Mnh-mnh.

You have no choice.

-You have to do it.

What are you going to do, like not take care of your kids, not take care of your family?

-Yeah.

-So, I was a DoD kid.

I moved around a lot and I guess, you know, there are pictures of my dad holding us in his Navy uniform, and I don't remember much of that, but I remember moving a lot and having to adapt quite a bit.

Were any of you DoDs kids?

Not a one, huh?

You have your own DoDs kids.

Well, I was the DoD kid.

-Yeah.

-Being the DoD kid, better known as the BRATs, right?

But I guess for me, it was an experience that allowed me the opportunity to adapt in so many ways and to be more comfortable in circles where, you know, anybody else who maybe lives in one little town in one state their whole life... -Yeah.

-I'm getting to see the broader world.

And coming from a military family, my family reunions are very diverse.

You know, each one of them picked up spouses from all over the country, all over the world.

You know, you said you were stationed in Germany, a family that is far afield, so I feel really fortunate in that being part of a DoD family like that has extended not just from my own military experience, but beyond in my family tree.

And it comes with its pitfalls.

You know, having kind of playing second fiddle to Uncle Sam in so many ways, but it never really had a lasting negative impression on me.

And in fact, I remember going to my uncle's house, I think it was at Randolph Air Force Base in Texas when I was a young girl, and hearing the fighter planes fly over and see him coming, you know, off a shift on Christmas morning in his uniform and thinking that was completely normal.

-Right.

Yeah.

-And I think not to speak for all DoDs kids out there, but for some, if that's all you've ever known... -That was my kids.

Yeah.

They never thought anything about it.

-I think my kids lived the best life.

They get to see and do so much and meet new people, you know, and the great thing about being away from family, while it sucks, is that you just become so close because it's just us four, and I wouldn't trade it for the world, and I don't think they would either.

-My oldest daughter's husband makes -- He jokes with her because she'll be like, "Yeah, when we lived in Italy," you know, or "when we lived in Germany," he's like [posh voice] "Oh, when you lived abroad," you know?

[Normal voice ] And he just picks at her all the time because, you know, it's like spring break was in Belgium or London or, you know, Paris or wherever we, you know, chose to go.

And it wasn't expensive because we lived really close.

So we could do it.

-Well, for every single military parent and co-parent or single parent, no matter if you're slugging it out, making that balance, I mean, that's an unenviable task and seemingly insurmountable one.

But y'all got it done.

I mean, and you're getting it done, Hannah.

-Trying.

-And, you know, you're not the first and you're not going to be the last and there's going to be more coming behind you.

And, you know, these experiences I guess collectively, obviously, you guys made it through some tough times.

And the military's improving their point of view and perspective on family support.

And I think our communities are hopefully hearing what y'all are saying about child care and child support and having that community come together and support us, hopefully that's heard loud and clear and those can be something that can also evolve with paternity and maternity leave.

-Definitely.

-You know, a shout-out to my military parent and grandparent.

And to all the military parents, thank you so much for your service.

And I want to thank you for taking the time to come on the show.

-Thanks for having me.

-Thank you.

Yeah.

Thanks for having us.

-Enjoyed it.

- There will be light There is a road Marching on Coming home