After Action

Bambi>> On pick up morning, they get us, the DI's.

And I remember walking the line very slowly, and as I passed, I heard this odd noise, and I turned around and look, and this recruit literally wet herself out of pure abject terror, as you'd say.

(laughs) Desiree>> That's when it really resonates, this is teamwork.

I did something for myself, and now I'm reaching back, and I'm helping somebody else so that they can win.

Dan>> We're not the stereotypical veteran.

Not everybody has a beard.

Not everybody has a Harley Davidson or a trike, and rides around in groups.

There's veterans that are just day-to-day veterans going to school, going to work, and whatever, and wanna be good members of the community.

(uplifting instrumental music) Stacy>> There's a reason why I'm 15 minutes early for any appointment and I make my bed without fail every morning, even in a hotel.

It's basic training.

Hi, I'm Stacy Pearsall, retired Air Force Staff Sergeant, and today, I'm sitting down with Bambi Bullard, Dan Wrightsman, and Desiree Tomlinson, three veterans whose job was once to transform civilians into military personnel.

We talk about the process, and how it impacts the military, and why that transformation is so lasting after action.

There will be life (helicopter blades whirring) There is a road (computer text chiming) Marching on (computer text chiming) Comin' home (helicopter blades whirring) (computer text chiming) (theme song outro plays) (birds chirping) (intense whooshing) (dramatic instrumental music) Stacy>> Welcome to Low Country Acres.

Thanks for taking the time to come.

I'm so glad to have you guys.

I've got Marines and two Army here.

I'm Air Force.

You know, not to say anything against Army or Marines, but I was told (Dan mumbles) to work smarter, not harder.

And my dad, in fact, being Navy, was like, (Dan mumbles) you should go Air Force.

So when I got out of service, I decided to stay, and from there, I started the Veterans Portrait Project, traveled to every state, all 50 states, interacting with veterans.

And what I found was, each and every one of you have an incredible story, and I think it's so important for us to hear, and I think, so often, friends, and family, and the friends that we have, don't really know about our military history, or even how to ask us about it.

So I think that this is an opportunity for us to gather around, and have a little chat amongst ourselves, and maybe let people in.

Desiree>> What brought me to the military is, the fact that I grew up on a farm in rural Hemingway, South Carolina, and my dad planted everything that was a seed.

So tobacco, cucumbers, peanuts, watermelon, okra.

If it was a seed, he planted it.

And so it was five girls.

Myself, I had two older, two younger sisters.

My dad made me his little boy of the five girls.

He actually taught me to drive a truck, the tractor, when I was nine-years-old.

But my reason for joining the military is, I had to get away from that.

(uplifting instrumental music) Stacy>> Children's book author and college professor, Desiree Tomlinson, grew up working the fields on her father's small farm in rural South Carolina when her aunt, and Women's Army Corps Veterans, inspired her to enlist.

She spent two years serving as a drill instructor, where she trained Army recruits before and after 9/11.

Stacy>> You walk into the recruiter station, and you see all the possibilities, why the Army?

Desiree>> Oh, I didn't have to walk into the recruiter station.

I called him, because (laughs) Stacy>> Okay.

Desiree>> I was ready to leave, number one.

Stacy>> You had him on speed dial.

Okay.

Desiree>> But my friend, Wanda, she joined, and she was all excited about it, and she told me how she was going Airborne.

And I'm like, okay, well, I don't wanna do that part, but I do wanna join.

And so, I just, I joined under the Buddy Program.

Right, okay.

Desiree>> Was it the Buddy Program?

Dan>> Mm-hmm.

Stacy>> Well, that was when they send you and your friend to basic training together, right?

Kind of?

Desiree>> Well, it was somethin' similar to it.

I guess I went in under her, 'cause we didn't go at the same time.

Stacy>> Oh!

Desiree>> She went in August.

I left in January of '89.

Stacy>> Is that just another... Well, hold on a second!

Dan, didn't you do recruiting for a while?

Dan>> Mm-hmm.

I did.

Stacy>> Okay.

Dan>> I was a recruiter.

Stacy>> Was that one of those things that they do?

Dan>> Yeah.

Stacy>> They're like, hey, why don't you get your friend?

We'll enlist you both, Dan>> Yeah.

Stacy>> and then you get credit for both of them, but we won't send you at the same time.

Dan>> Well, yeah.

So the kind of buddy referral was a way for you to get promoted.

So if I referred Desiree, and she joined, then that could get me promoted from a E-1 to a E-2.

So get a little bit more pay, Desiree>> Yeah.

Dan>> and the recruiter gets another enlistment, another DEP to go in.

And so, yeah.

Dan>> In theory, it's a win-win, except for Desiree, who still comes, you know, doesn't really get to see anything out of it.

Desiree>> I joined the military, and so I ended up staying there for 20 years and eight months, and then enjoyed it.

I started out as what they call a 75 Echo.

I ended up being a senior human resource manager, but I also had the opportunity and privilege to be a drill sergeant for two years.

Stacy>> We're gonna talk a little bit about your experiences as a drill instructor, and what that takes, but let's pass it on to Dan, and hear a little bit about you.

Dan>> So originally, I'm adopted from Korea.

I got adopted in 1972.

My dad was in the Army.

Bounced around a lot.

Moved to Texas in 1986, and then California in 1988, and graduated high school from there.

Joined the Army shortly after I graduated high school as an infantryman.

So deployed three times.

Just retired last year, December, after 30 years as an infantryman.

(uplifting instrumental music) Stacy>> Korean-born Army veteran, Dan Wrightsman, followed in the footsteps of his adopted father, and enlisted as an infantryman, rising to the rank of Sergeant Major.

During his distinguished career, he traveled across the globe, and culminated his service, managing a recruit training battalion at Fort Jackson in Columbia, South Carolina.

Dan>> Didn't know I was gonna stay in 30 years.

I originally just joined to get to college and get outta the house for a little bit, and ended up liking the infantry.

I was like, I'm pretty good at it.

Get to go shoot things, blow things up, and have fun.

(group giggles) And I was like, yeah, this is kind a cool.

So stayed in.

Again, was just gonna stay for another enlistment, and then go out and go back to college, but kept likin' it, and kept havin' fun.

So just 30 years later, here I am.

Met my wife in 2001 at a recruiting school in Fort Jackson.

So my wife has been prayin' for 20 years, whatever long, to get back to South Carolina in some way, shape, or form, and the Army sent us to Fort Jackson, where I had a battalion, as a Battalion Command Sergeant Major for a basic combat training unit.

And my wife said, "You better figure out how to stay here".

So I said, "Okay".

And luckily, the Army worked with us, and, and kept us here for different positions, so.

And been here since 2016, back in South Carolina, and we're gonna just stay here until that's it, so.

Stacy>> I haven't heard that a lot, where somebody enlists as infantry.

Normally, it's the recruiter got one over on ya.

(Dan laughs) Dan>> Yeah.

Stacy>> So you went in knowing you wanted to do infantry?

Dan>> Mm-hmm, yeah.

Stacy>> Now, Bambi, what was your military origin story?

Where are you from originally?

Why did you pick the service you did?

Bambi>> Well, I wanted to go to college, and it wasn't an option for me without the military GI Bill.

(uplifting instrumental music) Stacy>> Bambi Bullard enlisted in the Marine Corps from her home state of Indiana, and attended a gender segregated bootcamp, where she was ordered to wear makeup and attend charm classes.

When Bambi became a drill sergeant, she challenged the system, and pushed the boundaries for female Marine recruits.

Bambi>> I come from a military family all the way back to the Revolutionary War.

I have uncles in Marine Corps, Marine Corps, Marine Corps, Army.

And I had an aunt who was a woman Marine in 1944.

I went in, supposed to be an illustrator, and ended up being an admin, and had a West Coast guarantee, and, of course, went to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina.

So (chuckles) nothing went the way I thought it was gonna go initially, but it all worked out, because a year later, after my first duty station, I never worked in admin.

I was always in B-billets doing something else, like acting company gunny, or Marine Corps Institute courses.

And they put me over at Criminal Investigation Division running a radar unit.

And I thought, this just doesn't...

Nothing made sense.

So I volunteered for the drill field with 11 months in the Marine Corps.

I was in E-4 already, and went to the drill field first tour, then I got out, went into the Reserves for less than a year, and decided that was not a fit anymore out in the civilian sector.

So I re-enlisted active, and went back to Parris Island to the DI school to work on DI school staff, and did a second tour.

I didn't finish it, because I got deep selected to go to the Pentagon to work for the Secretary of the Navy's staff.

Stacy>> So you were a DI, and then you oversaw basic combat training at Fort Jackson?

Desiree>> Yes, well I came in as a human resources management.

Stacy>> Okay.

Desiree>> And then I also became a drill sergeant in 2000.

So I did that for two years at Fort Jackson, 313th Battalion.

(interposing voices) Dan>> Same battalion I had.

Stacy>> Really?

Desiree>> That is awesome.

Stacy>> Did you guys ever cross paths?

Was it at the same time?

Dan>> No, no, I took over 313 in 2016.

Stacy>> Okay.

Dan>> So.

Desiree>> So we didn't meet until two months ago, until the Pathfinder's training.

Stacy>> Oh, that's interesting.

Desiree>> Yeah.

Stacy>> What is that?

Dan>> So the Palmetto Pathfinder, it's the South Carolina Department of Veterans Affairs initiative for veterans to have a peer-to-peer mentorship program.

Stacy>> Oh!

Dan>> So the main focus is for veterans who are, excuse me, service members who are about to transition from the service to have partnered with a veteran who has been through the process, just to help 'em, guide them through it, walk shoulder-to-shoulder with 'em through the transition process, just to help make sure things aren't missed, and to show them the opportunities for resume writing, job coaching, interviews, skills training, different things, and then connect 'em with organizations that can assist for that.

Stacy>> It's really interesting you bring that up, 'cause I wanted to ask each of you... We all had our own basic training experience.

Just think back to that moment you were on the bus, and they came on and they started screaming expletives at your face.

Can you share with me a little bit about what your experience was like when you first arrived at basic training?

And I know we arrived in the evening on a bus, and we pulled up to a building where there was a lot of yellow painted footprints where we were all supposed to line up.

All very, very nervous.

In the Air Force, we call 'em training instructors.

So we call 'em TI's.

The TI'S came on, and they were screaming at the top of their lungs.

I haven't, to this day, no idea what they were saying, other than I just Dan>> Yeah.

Stacy>> I was in blind terror, and all I heard was this (hums softly) coming from my ears.

And then, somehow, I ended up out on the tarmac, standing on a pair of feet, and I felt like I was running or marching from that day forward.

So... Bambi>> Yep.

Stacy>> What was your experience like?

Bambi>> Middle of the night.

Stacy>> Was it?

Bambi>> And when I went in, I was 20.

So I was, I think, if I recall, I was the second oldest, and the first oldest didn't make it through.

So I was the oldest to graduate.

I had a little bit more street savvy than the majority of the girls that I was going in with.

And I had the family background.

I knew what was comin'.

I had been forewarned.

I had heard all the stories for years.

It was, break you down, and we'll make you what we want you to be.

Stacy>> Right.

Bambi>> So I knew what was coming.

I had that advantage.

Desiree>> My recruiter told me that was gonna happen.

What is it, Hell day?

Is it Hell Day?

When they...

I think it's called Hell Day, or something like that.

Stacy>> Wasn't that Hell Week?

(interposing voices) Desiree>> They have that!

(Stacy laughs) They have that, too!

(group laughs) Dan>> Could be hell, 10 weeks- (interposing voices) Bambi>> Seemed like it lasted that long, right?

(chuckles) Desiree>> Well, I just knew it was gonna happen.

But it did happen very quickly when they got on the bus.

But I was just afraid.

I was still terrified, but I still knew it's a mind game.

They're supposed to do this.

And I just went along with it.

Didn't cause any problems.

Didn't wanna have to do any additional pushups that I didn't have to, so.

Stacy>> What was your experience like?

Dan>> So it was kinda the same thing.

At midnight, getting to 30th AG Reception for the in-processing, and that was a very long few days.

And then we actually got down to our basic training company, it was chaotic.

We were on cattle cars, and there was 60, 70 of us crammed in there with all our bags.

And then we get there, they open the doors, drill sergeants are greeting us, yellin' at us, get off the cattle car, get your butt off there, and a few other choice words.

Of course, we never could do it fast enough, so we were all carrying two duffle bags, and a laundry bag, and we're doin' the duffle bag shuffle all around the company, and trying to get in formation, and gettin' yelled at, doin' pushups, and stuff's fallin' out, and then we gotta put it all back together.

And then it probably only took maybe 15 minutes, but it felt like it took a couple hours just for that process to go through.

And then we got introduced to the drill sergeants, and found out that they controlled the day, and they controlled when the sun goes down, and when the sun comes up, (Stacy giggles) and we're like, okay, fair enough.

And then got upstairs through the bay, and then started doin' all the typical in-processing stuff that we do.

And then we had to write a letter back home to our mom and dad, say, "Yeah, we're here and we're safe", and they watched us put it in the envelope, send it back.

And so, I'm okay.

And then that's when it kinda hit me.

It was like, yeah, I guess I'm here, so.

Stacy>> It's legit.

They put a stamp on it.

Dan>> Yeah, exactly- Stacy>> Mail it home.

You're in.

Dan>> Yep.

Stacy>> We all have to go, regardless of branch of service, all have to go through basic training.

And I spent a lot of time thinking about why we do this.

<instructor> slight bend to your knees.

Stacy>> I think, initially, when we're in basic training, (Sergeant yells indistinctly) the drill instructors, or in my case, a training instructor, was sitting there, you need to fold your shirt six inches square, and it can be no deeper than a half inch, and I will take my ruler, and I will measure this.

And then you spend all this time ironing this damn shirt, and then you stack that shirt four shirts deep, and then somebody come in, and like, that's not right!

And then they take everything that you had just done, and tossed it across the room.

They say, "Start over again".

I'm like, this is asinine.

Why am I doing this to myself?

But there's a reason why.

So I'm curious.

You've seen both sides of this game.

As you guys said, it's a head game.

But I think it's so much more than that.

(Charlie snores loudly) Do you guys hear Charlie?

He's snoring away.

(Desiree chuckles) Dan>> Yeah.

Dan>> He's a happy dog.

Desiree>> I envy Charlie.

(group laughs) Stacy>> We're just gonna... We're gonna acknowledge the snore in the room.

(group continues laughing) Stacy>> Yeah He's loving life.

(Desiree sighs) Keeps me calm.

We spend all this time developing civilians into military members.

So I'm curious, when did you have that sort of aha moment?

When did you know that it clicked for you, that you went from being that individual person to being the "we" or the team?

Dan>> Well, for me, I think it was...

I don't remember exactly when, but there were some team building events that we had to do to get through the next event, and that's when it started.

And some simple things, too, like, hey, we gotta clean the bays, and that takes everybody to clean the bay within a certain amount of time.

One of the first things that the drill sergeants had us do to just kinda understand it's a teamwork.

There's about 55 of us in the platoon, we had three minutes all to take a shower, and it really wasn't that we were gonna take a shower, we just team the event, hurry up and get through all the showers, back in the bunks, and get in underneath the sheets, so the drills sergeants can turn the lights off.

That was kind of our first time we could say, hey, this is where we have to work as a team.

Everybody just gets through there, turns the lights off, and everybody gets done, and check and fire guards are posted.

And that was kinda like our first aha moments, like, hey, if you work together, then we can get through this a lot easier than trying to do everything on our own, 'cause if everybody tried to go on and take their time, get into a shower, and do all, we never would've made it, and then we would've been doing pushups, flutter kicks, whatever, until who knows when.

So that was for me, I can't remember exactly when that was, but I remember the event, and I was like, man, This is when it kinda started clickin', and things got a little bit better for us.

Desiree>> Yeah.

And then, too, I guess another part of that would be, you'll realize you have to work as a team.

When one soldier messes up something, or maybe two, and everybody is punished for it, and in order for them to stop, or us to stop the punishment, they all work together.

You'll hear them like, come on, come on, you can do it!

And they'll do it.

They're all sweatin' and hurtin', and bodies tremblin' and shakin', but they'll do it.

That's some of those moments where you'll see it as well.

(Bambi giggles) Stacy>> Bambi was like, I was born a Marine.

I didn't even go through basic training.

Bambi>> Pretty close.

I actually knew that I was not who I was when I went in.

When I got off the plane after graduation, my mother was there, my brother, and a couple friends.

They were there to greet me coming off the plane, and I walked right up to them, and they didn't know me.

They didn't even recognize me.

Desiree>> What did you do differently?

Bambi>> Well, I was in uniform, my hair was tight, not a hair out of place.

I actually had makeup on for a change.

(laughs) But it was the way I was carrying myself, I think, more than anything.

And I walked right up next to my mother, and I heard her say to one of my friends, she goes, "I wonder if she missed her plane?"

And I said, "I don't think so".

(group laughs) She came about that far up off the floor and jumped.

But I knew I had to drag a few of those people, the ones that you were referring to, Stacy>> Yeah.

Bambi>> to get them to come.

But boy, were we glad when they got rid of the really... Desiree>> Yeah.

Bambi>> The ones that were holding others back.

Desiree>> Even during runs, though, when sometimes someone falls back, and you want to bring them up, and like, come on, especially during a PT test, you want to make sure that you bring up the people that are falling back, or if you're fast enough, and you can go back and get the others, some that aren't as fast, then you do that, that's when it really resonates, this is teamwork, and I did something for myself, and now I'm reaching back, and I'm helping somebody else so that they can win.

So that always feels good as well.

Stacy>> Yeah.

Stacy>> We walk a out of basic training unified through this shared experience.

Do you think that may be one of the reasons why, if I were to come up to, say, we meet as perfect strangers, regardless of whether we know each other, I say, "Hey, wait, you were in the military?"

You're like, yeah, and you just kinda give that nod, that knowing nod, and you're like, mm-hmm.

"Cool, you wanna go have dinner?"

"Sure, let's go."

And then we have something to talk about right away.

Right?

I would go a step further to say that, you guys have an additional experience, because you touched people's lives in creating the military member.

(exhales loudly) So, how did you go about creating these military members?

Because I'm curious if your military experience through basic training influenced how you trained individuals?

Bambi>> We went through DI school.

Stacy>> Okay.

Bambi>> I think I was in the first or second class that women went into DI school for training.

Prior to that, it was on-the-job training, OJT.

They just went directly from their commands to the drill field.

So in a way, I had a little bit of an advantage there, because I had the additional training.

Here's how we make Marines.

Here's what we do.

Stacy>> What did they teach you?

Bambi>> Everything.

Everything.

Stacy>> Was there anything specifically, or like, oh, yeah, that makes sense?

Bambi>> Well, you learn what maybe you thought in bootcamp you might have considered was hazing, or punishment, or whatever.

But you learn that there's an ulterior motive for it when you go to training.

Of course, we found out after we got outta boot camp, too.

Things like a hygiene check.

You've got these recruits standing at the ends of their bunks, and they're standing there with their hands out like this, and they're in their flip-flops, and they're getting ready to hit the rack for the night.

And you think you're standing there being punished, and the DI is walkin' the line, and what we're doing is a hygiene check to make sure there's no blisters on your feet, no cuts on you, no bruises, your nails are clean, you have taken a shower, right?

So there's always another reason for what we're doing.

Recruits might pop off and say something, and we'll go into the DI hut, and just slam the door shut.

We're on the other side of it laughin' our heads off, because whatever a recruit said was hilarious, but we can't show them that.

You can't show them the human side of you, until maybe last week of training.

Prior to that, there's always a reason for what's being done.

Stacy>> Do you think there was, in some ways, they look at you in a motherly way, or did they always look at you with abject terror?

Bambi>> The one I remember is, on pickup morning.

In the Marine Corps, the recruits get three or four days of forming, where somebody else is handling them, getting 'em formed up, getting 'em kind of moving as a herd, getting their basic uniforms, their utilities, and things issued to them.

Then, on pickup morning, they get us, the DIs.

And I remember walking the line very slowly, and as I passed, I heard this odd noise, and I turned around and look, and this recruit literally wet herself (Stacy gasps) out of pure abject terror, as you say.

(laughs) She was... Yeah.

And I just, really?

That's how we're gonna start?

But yeah, sometimes they were absolutely terrified.

Stacy>> Desiree, you look like you were the kinder, gentler DI.

Desiree>> Yeah.

(Stacy laughs) (interposing voices) I was.

I had two drill sergeant partners, and my drill sergeant, platoon sergeant, Drill Sergeant Hoff, and then I had my other, Drill Sergeant Winters.

And so they were a little rough on the soldiers, and I felt like they needed a balance.

I felt like they needed to know someone cared about them.

So I would speak to them more sternly, more like a mom scolding a child so much.

I didn't like, I didn't cuss at 'em, or I didn't scream or yell.

I just spoke to them in a very stern voice, and kinda just looked them in the eyes, and it was effective.

Oh, and the other thing I did is, I'd tell them to write about it.

So when they had to write about it, they had to write a 100 word essay, and if they didn't do it, I doubled it.

So now, it's 200.

Oh, you still don't wanna do it?

Okay, 400.

So I got to the point where one soldier tried me so badly, he ended up having to write... Well, I'm not a drill sergeant anymore.

So any who, (Stacy giggles) Stewart ended up writing, I think, a 2,000 word essay, because he tried me forever.

But what was concerning is, when we went to the range, basic rifleman marksmanship, BRM, and we have live rounds, and he's in that little foxhole, the shooting position, and I'm like, Stewart...

I said, "Stewart, are you okay?"

And he was like, yeah, cause I'm like, I don't want him to react to me.

You have live rounds.

His buddies, they were like, Drill Sergeant, they were like, Stewart was up all night writing that essay, because I told Stewart, if you don't get this together, then we're gonna put you out.

So Stewart finally wrote that paper.

But yeah, they hated it.

One soldier, he was like, he said, "Drill Sergeant, can't you just smoke me?"

I said, "Nah, that's too easy".

"I need you to write about it."

Stacy>> See, we didn't...

Okay, to be fair, of course, the Air Force has their forms of reprimands, dare I say, punishments.

And until I actually started working with the Army, I had never heard the term smoking before.

Do you know what this is?

Dan>> Yeah.

Stacy>> Do they do it in the Marine Corps, too?

Is it just the hardcore branches?

They're like, Air force is light.

Dan>> Just the smoke sessions- Stacy>> We're military light.

Bambi>> You're corporate.

You're corporate.

Stacy>> Corporate, ah!

(Bambi and Stacy laugh) Dan>> You guys are the fancy branch, yeah.

Stacy>> I'm gonna own it.

Chair-force all the way.

Dan>> Chair.

(laughs) Stacy>> So smoking is what?

Getting pushups?

Desiree>> Smoking is just making them do a whole bunch of pushups.

Dan>> You're doing Desiree>> Lunges.

Dan>> any exercises you can think of just to- Bambi>> Don't stop until I get tired of watching you.

Dan>> Yeah.

Desiree>> Yeah, burn 'em out.

Bambi>> Yeah.

Desiree>> Yeah.

And they'll say, "You keep going till I get tired".

Stacy>> Is that just to learn a lesson, or to drive home a lesson?

Dan>> It's to re-emphasize a point.

Say you do something wrong, you'd have quick smoke session to kinda help physically remind them that, hey, you should not do that.

So pain was always (speaks indistinctly) drill sergeant, so pain was a great motivator and a great teacher.

And yeah, if I do a couple hundred pushups, yes, I will not do that again, probably, also.

Stacy>> So negative reinforcement's where it's at is what we're saying?

Desiree>> Yeah.

Dan>> Or it could be positive, just how you look at it.

Stacy>> When it stops, it's positive?

Stacy>> Sure.

Dan>> So, yeah.

Bambi>> In the Corps, we had the team, the DI team, would be a senior drill instructor and two A's, and there'd be a hard A and then an easy A. Stacy>> Wait, what are you saying?

A means ass?

Bambi>> No, (Desiree chuckles) the assistant drill- Stacy>> Oh.

(laughs) I thought... (group laughs) Dan>> Could be, yeah.

Stacy>> There's a-s-s number one and that's number two.

I'm just trying to follow along.

Bambi>> Senior and two assistants.

One's a hard and one's an easy.

Stacy>> Okay.

Bambi>> And we rotated.

You were with a different team put together, usually, every platoon going forward.

To the PT issue, using that, some people said it was punishment, or thought it was, and yes, to a degree, but it was also a teaching moment, where you found out, if you make a mistake, there'll be repercussions from either the pain of PT, to where it could cost you your life in a combat situation.

Dan>> Yeah, it was always that attention to detail.

I didn't understand it until I went to PLDC.

Bambi>> Exactly.

Dan>> So everything, why we did SOPs, why we rolled t-shirts a certain way, why we folded things, everything had to be laid out a certain way, it was always the attention to detail.

It was like, hey, so you apply that same level of attention to detail to your job, so when I'd go out there, and I'd go to a range, I'm being safe.

If I go to combat, I know to secure all my combat load on all my vehicles and equipment.

I know to double check my night vision.

I know to make sure I got batteries for radio.

That I do all that attention to detail stuff, that's what all that was designed to teach you.

We didn't know it at the time.

We just know, hey, hurry up and do this this way.

We thought it was stupid, but get to PLDC, I'm like, why do we always do it this way?

Oh, attention to detail.

Okay, I got it now.

Now it makes sense why we do it, so.

Bambi>> But again, that comes to the combat situation.

We don't have time...

When I tell you to move, I don't have time to explain why I'm trying to get you out of the line of fire.

Move!

And that's the instant reaction.

Dan>> Yeah.

Stacy>> Desiree, interestingly enough, you were a drill instructor pre-9/11 and then on 9/11.

Is basic training so fundamentally set, like how we train people, and how we create military members, that did you see any transition in how we train to approach pre and post-9/11?

Desiree>> 9/11 happened in my second year of being a drill sergeant.

So what we were doing during that time, we just stayed... We stuck with it.

Nothing really shifted.

But I did mention before, that you would see trainees comin' in, because they wanted to defend their country.

Dan>> After 9/11 happened, and it kinda goes back to what FORSCOM commanders want, and what the force, there's always a survey done, say, hey, what do you want in basic training?

And it's usually always discipline and physically fit.

Those are the two main things.

But then because of the 20 years in Afghanistan and Iraq, it was, we want soldiers who know how to come ready to deploy, can operate out of a FOB, and do convo live-fire, different things and function.

So basic training in Fort Jackson changed.

They built FOBs out there, so you could go out there, and for your final FTX, you're manning a FOB, you're pulling security, you're going out doing patrols.

They built a convo live-fire range.

So they will change some of those events around to kinda get FORSCOM what they want, but at the heart of it, basic training is all generally the same.

Transitioning and transforming a civilian into a soldier.

The indoctrination process of, like, hey, you get called by your last name, 'cause that's what we do.

It's just, well, we call you by your....

This is how we say Army times.

This is how we spell.

You get up, you do pt, this is the regimen that you follow.

So there's that indoctrination piece that will never change.

Stacy>> Now, Bambi, you were a drill instructor during a different time when... Now, correct me if I'm wrong, you were a drill instructor when the females were segregated from the male trainees, correct?

Bambi>> Yes.

Stacy>> And were there...

I think you and I had discussed before that there were limitations on female Marines at that time about what they could do during basic training, and things like that.

Can we dive a little bit into that?

'Cause I love that Dan talked about the evolution of the military, and I think we are constantly evolving even today.

Especially now that combat roles are open to women, that's continuing to evolve.

So I wanna talk a little bit about where we came from.

And I know that you pushed some boundaries, so let's dive into... Bambi>> Me.

(Dan laughs) Stacy>> Yes!

Yes, 'cause it takes folks like you taking that leap forward to make some changes.

So let's talk about that.

Bambi>> One of the pushes I did was before I went to the drill field in my first year in the Marine Corps.

I was the training NCO for a woman Marine company, the last one that existed in Camp Lejeune.

And I got in touch with someone at Recon Battalion out on the beach, the training NCO of Recon Battalion.

And I said, "Hey, what will it take for us to come out there and do the repelling on the tower?"

And he said, "Come on out on the weekend, we'll do it".

I would put the word out.

About 30, 25, 30 women signed up.

We went out to the recon repelling tower on a Saturday.

A 90 foot tower.

And in civvies, jeans and t-shirts, started doing repelling.

Had no clue what we were doing.

And they had one recon trainer out there with us.

Well, of course, word got to the captain, and I got called on the carpet Monday for doing something that was just absolutely forbidden.

And then when the captain got done reamin' me for this, said, "Dismissed", and as I started to step away, she said, "Wait a minute".

I turned back around.

"Yes, ma'am?"

She said, "Make sure you make an entry in everybody's service record book that went that they did this".

Desiree>> Wow!

Bambi>> And I kinda had that little grin goin'.

I said, "Yes, ma'am".

(group chuckles) And then when I went to the drill field, we were separated.

Women did not do this.

We weren't doing the combat training.

And the Crucible event for the end of training that exists now did not exist then.

And we were a test platoon for one of my groups for taking women to the rifle and pistol range for the M16 and the 45 pistol, and that was '78.

And women weren't allowed to fire for record to earn the badges, actually, as recruits as a group, they weren't allowed to until, I believe, it was '81 or '82.

But we were the first test platoon to take women out there.

Stacy>> Well, now, I think they're integrating fully.

Bambi>> Yes.

Stacy>> So how do you feel about that, seeing that happen?

Bambi>> What took so long?

That's my opinion.

Stacy>> That's fair.

Desiree>> Yeah.

Bambi>> But then again, it was the Marine Corps, and the resistance in the corps has always been there.

When I went to boot camp, one of the courses included was a makeup class.

You're taught, literally taught.

And these corporations had contracts to come in and sell their makeup to recruits, and you had to wear it this way, and you had to wear a certain color of lipstick.

You were taught etiquette classes.

You were taught how to carry yourself as a lady.

A handbag was part of the uniform.

Gloves, too.

So that was a different time.

And this was late '70s, and carried on.

I think that finally stopped when they decided that gun oil and gloves didn't mix.

(laughs) Dan>> Yeah.

Bambi>> And it wasn't necessary to wear lipstick out in the combat training environment.

Thank you very much.

So... Stacy>> Well, my sister was part of the first fully integrated male and female flight in the Air Force, and that was in '97.

So really, that's in the very recent past.

I'm wondering, what was the experience like for the Army, in terms of gender integration?

Has that been... Desiree>> It was already integrated.

By the time I became a drill sergeant, it already, already was.

Dan>> Yeah.

For basic combat training, it's always, I mean, it's been for a long time.

My cousin, when she went through, it was segregated.

She went back in, I think, '86, '87 she went.

So it was still segregated then.

But it's always been integrated.

So as the Army has opened up all the MOS' to women, and we've had women graduate in ranger school, graduate Special Forces, different things.

I think it's really just showing, it's not about your gender, male or female, it's about who's capable, which is what it always should have been about, is if you're capable, that's fine.

Don't lower standards.

But if the person can, he or she can reach that standard, then that's all that matters.

If we're trying to find the best quality, and do good talent management, that's what we're looking for, so.

Desiree>> I can remember, too, and this happened probably as I'm coming on to become a drill sergeant, they had the stress cards.

Dan>> No!

Desiree>> Do you remember the stress cards?

Dan>> There was no such thing as stress cards.

Desiree>> What was it called?

It's called stress something.

It was a little card that they carried around in their pockets, Dan>> I don't know.

Desiree>> and if they felt like they were being stressed out in that moment, they could pull a stress card out on a drill sergeant, and they were kinda like, just back off a little bit.

Stacy>> That's interesting.

Don't you think part of the basic training experience, though, is going to that point of stress, and beyond it, to see how much Dan>> Yeah.

Stacy>> you can actually continue to function under immense amounts of stress?

Desiree>> Yeah, because you can't pull that out on a battlefield.

Stacy>> Mm-hmm.

Dan>> So basic training has always been...

There's always some type of pilot that comes out for basic combat training, and it's like, hey, we got this great idea.

We wanna do yoga and mindfulness training.

We wanna do positive encouragement, and see if we can increase the numbers for graduation, 'cause attrition is always there, right?

So we wanna see how we can reduce the attrition.

So there's always some type of tinkering, some type of way to motivate and find cell phones.

It's like, hey, we used to take the cell phones away from 'em, now they get to keep their cell phones, Stacy>> What?

Dan>> and Sundays, they get to make a phone call.

Stacy>> Hold on!

Dan>> So yeah, it's different.

So yeah, it's different.

Yeah.

And maybe it works, maybe it doesn't?

I don't know.

I think the attrition rate is still the same.

I think numbers don't lie.

And I think a lot of different initiatives and pilots have been tried in recruiting and basic training for the last 20, 30 years, that no matter what you do, the numbers are gonna be the same.

Stacy>> So I think early on, I learned the sort of military mentality to, I guess, you touched on it for a minute, yoga and mindfulness.

Let's address this, okay?

Because we, as a community, tend to have frowned upon emotional, getting help for emotional support.

Like mental health, that's really not in...

It was never really in our vernacular until recently.

I'm wondering, has the military changed their mentality about looking at the whole individual?

Dan>> So they're changing their mindset on it.

So it used to be, if you were gonna be a leader, if you were in a leadership position, First Sergeant becomes a commander or battalion, any leadership position, you had to be viewed as you were, zero issues with you.

Your finances, marriage was good, you didn't over-drink, didn't do anything dumb or stupid, and you were mentally strong and physically strong.

You were supposed to be what...

Right?

Because the idea is that, if you couldn't take care of yourself, then how could you take care of your soldiers?

And the same thing with the...

In basic combat training, the drill sergeants, they go through a big assessment to make sure there's a right NCO to be a drill sergeant, 'cause they wanna make sure they don't have any pay issues, don't have any behavioral health issues.

So they're looking' at that, and saying, hey, we wanna make sure, if they do have issues, that they have resources to get there.

So there's a lot of emphasis for the drill sergeants, company commanders, first sergeants, who are in that environment to say, hey, if you need help for behavioral health, these are the places you can go to.

For the trainees, the rules are still set by recruiting command of who can come in and who can't.

So some behavioral health, you'll just never be able to come in.

Most likely, I mean, it's been a while, but if you have attempted to commit suicide, you're not gonna be able to come in.

If you have any type of personality disorder diagnosed and you're taking medication for it, you're not gonna be able to come in.

So if you're in the military, and you do have issues, yes, with the military, all branches have great behavioral health services, and will take care of... For the leaders and for the drill sergeants, the model's changing, too.

Where it used to be you had to be that hard rock and you couldn't be broken, to now, it's like, if you need help, go get help.

That's part of what being a good leader is.

Desiree>> Yeah.

Dan>> Go seek behavioral health.

The days of sneaking around to the back of the behavioral health clinic and talking to a doctor at 10 o'clock at night is hopefully being a thing of the past.

Stacy>> So I wanna segue into something a little bit more lighthearted.

Now, my drill instructors would say some very colorful things, but I know that there were some restrictions on, or there was allegedly restrictions, on what drill instructors were allowed to say or permitted to say.

And so there was a whole new dictionary per each drill instructor.

I would like to hear a little bit from the drill instructor side of the house, some of the words that you've created over the course of your careers.

Dan>> I always remember the drill sergeants used to call us dick, (Desiree gasps loudly) and we're like, you can't call us that.

They're like, no, it's a Defensive Infantry Commie Killer.

That's what you guys are.

(Stacy laughs) We're like, okay, fair enough.

Stacy>> Hold on!

Say that one more time.

Dan>> So they always used call us D.I.C.K., and we're like, I don't know.

We never said it to them, like, I don't think they can call us that.

A D.I.C.K.

is a Defensive Infantry Commie Killer.

We laughed.

I mean Stacy>> Okay.

(group laughs) Dan>> We just laughed.

We thought it was funny.

I mean, back in '92, nobody cared.

So we were like- Desiree>> Okay.

Stacy>> It was a different time then.

Dan>> Yeah.

(group members chuckling) Bambi>> Amazingly enough, when I was on the drill field, women drill instructors were not allowed to swear at recruits.

You could not cuss.

You could be relieved from duty if you swore at, or in front of, a recruit.

Desiree>> Wow.

Bambi>> So we had to get creative with some of the terms, and I learned how to cuss without cussing.

(Desiree chuckles) It wasn't easy.

(laughs) And I did make the mistake once not knowing a recruit was in the area.

Said something to another DI, and that recruit turned me in, went up and ratted me out to the senior.

Stacy>> What was your favorite makeshift curse word?

Bambi>> Beach.

I could use it for a lot of stuff.

Stacy>> Okay, use it in a sentence for me.

Bambi>> You are not a male, therefore, you cannot be a son of a beach.

And if you wanna be this, then I'm going to call you beach for the rest of the time that you're here.

But it's the female version of beach as in (censored), so are we clear?

And then if you wanna take it this way, you can take it as a female dog, or you can take it the way I mean it.

Your choice.

Desiree>> Oh, wow!

(Stacy laughs) I felt that.

Dan>> I like it.

Yeah!

(group laughs) I like it.

Bambi>> We could rip 'em.

But again, it wasn't just out of malice, spite, or anger.

It was always...

It always had to be a teaching moment for something in a way they would remember it.

I rarely had to use volume, other than calling cadence or marching a platoon somewhere.

I rarely had to use volume.

It was like you said earlier, more effective to do something a different way.

And my method was to sneak up behind them and whisper beside their ear.

Stacy>> Oh, that's so sketchy!

Desiree>> Oh, wow!

Dan>> Yeah.

Bambi>> But it stuck.

Desiree>> What were you saying' when you were sneaking' up behind 'em and whispering'?

Bambi>> Thumbs along the seams.

I don't know how many time I've told you.

And if you need to have help finding out which is your left and which is your right, I'll tape one of 'em to your other side.

(Desiree laughs) Will that help?

And I'm being very quiet.

Desiree>> And you didn't add the little beach on the end of it, though, did you?

Bambi>> Of course.

Of course I did.

(group laughs) Of course I did.

Desiree>> Of course you did.

(Desiree continues laughing) Bambi>> But again, it was more effective to whisper.

Desiree>> (chuckles) Right.

Bambi>> It scared the crap out of 'em.

Desiree>> Yeah.

Bambi>> It terrified 'em.

Desiree>> Yeah.

Bambi>> They never knew where I was.

Desiree>> Oh, man.

Bambi>> If I wasn't in view, they were always afraid that I was right behind 'em.

Stacy>> Stealthy.

Desiree>> Yeah.

Stacy>> I remember my TI had a sort of raspy voice where you had... And I feel like, every time I went to Fort Jackson to photograph, or anywhere where, and Parris Island, every drill instructor had that sort of very raspy, intimidating... And I don't know if it was from screaming at recruits all day long, or if it was taught to you?

Can you explain to me how that whole voice thing comes about?

Desiree>> I think it comes from yelling all the time, constantly.

I didn't have that problem.

I was kind.

(Desiree laughs) Stacy>> You were the kinder, gentler one?

Dan>> You were the nice one?

Stacy>> Yeah.

(Desiree and Dan laugh) Bambi>> Clearly I was the hard A.

(Bambi laughs) Stacy>> You were the beach?

(group laughs) Bambi>> I was the beach.

(group continues laughing) We were taught how to project in DI school, right?

When we we're being taught how to march, how to call cadence.

We're also projecting through the entire length of a building barracks, and that number 60 recruit on the other end has to hear us loud and clear.

So you learn to project, but again, sometimes you get vocal cord damage, if you didn't know how to from the diaphragm.

If you didn't know how to do that projection, you could do some damage.

Stacy>> Each and every one of us have a military mindset that began in basic training, right?

It's ingrained in us, instilled in us.

So no matter whether we hang up the uniform, we can still talk in 24 hour clocks, acronyms.

We're always 15 minutes early to anything, and we're OCD about everything.

And no matter what, we have super high expectations about what our team is going to bring, and what we bring to the team.

So with that said, what I wanna hear from you is, what are you doing today as a veteran, and how can our colleagues, friends, community better understand us and that military mentality, and maybe use that to their advantage?

Bambi, I wanna start with you.

Bambi>> When I left, I took everything that I learned with me, and have applied it, in essence, to everything that I've tried to do since.

I mentioned earlier about being, having patriots in my family, in the Daughters of the American Revolution.

And I'm also working to set up a non-profit group that's gonna be statewide.

Actually, both North and South Carolina will be the focus of this group for women veterans, for the Carolina's Women Veterans Resources and Retreat.

So we're setting up another activity, another non-profit, where women can be the focus, and that we can recognize those, in particular, paying attention to the older women veterans, the ones who have been told, and who have the mindset, that they're invisible.

Stacy>> Yeah.

Bambi>> And that's one of the saddest things that I've ever heard, is when a woman refers to herself as an invisible veteran, or claims that she doesn't deserve any benefits through the VA system, because she didn't serve in combat, which is not true, absolute fallacy, or that she doesn't rate any of those benefits.

The number of women who didn't go to school, because they didn't know that they could use the GI Bill, or the Montgomery Bill, or whatever was available to them.

They didn't think they earned it, or that they warranted those benefits.

So I'm doing everything I can to change that today.

Stacy>> Wow, that's great.

Dan, where are you working now?

Dan>> So I work with the South Carolina Department of Veterans Affairs as a Midlands Regional Integration Officer.

Stacy>> Okay.

Dan>> So my job with that is to find organizations that can assist veterans who need a hand up.

Sometimes, veterans, from time to time, will get in a situation where they wanna find better employment, or they want to, they have some issues with utilities or behind on bills for whatever reasons.

And so I find them organizations that can connect with the veterans, and that can give them some assistance as needed.

One thing that kinda drew me to this job, and applying for it, was 'cause I always enjoyed helping soldiers.

And so this was a way to continue to help veterans, same situation, same type of scenarios, and still finding those organizations and resources that can provide that assistance.

So while it is a little different, it was a little fresh, because, hey, you just became a veteran yourself, but the mindset and the same type of go-to-work attitude of trying to find the organizations that can help the veterans.

Bambi>> And that's why I'm specifically setting this nonprofit up to address the women, because the hesitation for female veterans to even approach organizations, to even come to the VA, they just don't know that they have that option.

Stacy>> Mm-hmm.

Desiree>> Okay, so the one thing that I've taken from the military, and being a drill sergeant, is the fact that I love teaching.

And so I currently teach at Midlands Technical College, and sometimes I find myself calling' the students, soldiers.

It slips a lot.

(Stacy laughs) I'm like, I'm sorry, y'all are not soldiers.

But any who, the military made me very, very independent.

I love cutting my grass, and landscaping, and I love all of that stuff.

And the other thing it's done is, it gave me motivation.

And even when I felt like I didn't have it, I just kinda found myself doing counseling, so that I can get it back.

So the other thing that I do is, I write children's book about my divorce experience to help other families get it right, whereas, I didn't.

So I'll write, illustrate, and self-publish books.

Stacy>> What's the name of your first book?

Desiree>> The first book is called "Still a Family".

And in the book, it's a book series actually called "Grace and Mia".

And Grace is my oldest daughter, Kennedi, and Mia is my youngest daughter, Kinsley.

So I let them choose the character's name.

And I just gave the book a happy ending, because I want other families to have happy endings, whereas, I didn't get one of those.

Stacy>> But it seems like you have a pretty happy ending now?

Two great kids.

Desiree>> I'm working on it.

Stacy>> Published author.

Desiree>> Absolutely.

Well, the books are like... That's my lemonade.

Desiree>> The books are my lemonade and my therapy, so.

I think I'm gettin' that happy ending I need now.

Yeah.

Stacy>> Well, I think what's unique about the veteran community is that we're here for each other.

We may be small, but we're mighty, and we can lift each other up.

And I think it's time that we widen our circle a little bit more, and let our family in, and let our friends in, and the greater community, our civilian friends, for a lack of better terms, let them in into our circle a little bit more.

The veteran community is depicted so much throughout Hollywood, and what we see on TV isn't necessarily who we are as a community.

Am I right?

Dan>> We're not the stereotypical veteran.

Not everybody has beards.

Not everybody rides motorcycles.

Not everybody is goin' out there and has guns in their houses.

It's not the stereotype that people think of veterans.

Veterans are normal, everyday people.

They're teachers, they're members of the community, they're working for TV, and in different areas, and veterans are contributing members to society.

And that's the biggest thing I think for veterans, that I try to bring the message that veterans are people.

We're not just what you think you see, and we're not broken, we're not pet the vet.

We are definitely able to do things, and wanna do things, to contribute.

Stacy>> Yeah, I love that so much.

I remember when I first became a veteran, most of my veteran counterparts are male.

I mean, statistically, that's pretty average.

But I was also young, too, and a female wasn't necessarily the face that people thought when somebody said the word veteran.

So when I would go in there, people would often ask me, excuse me, do you know where Bay 672 is, as if I was medical staff, and could direct them.

And I was waiting for a doctor's appointment once, and Red Cross were handing out cookies and sodas for veterans, and I went to get some refreshment, and had my hand slapped away, and said, "That's for veterans".

Stacy>> So even within Desiree>> Oh!

Stacy>> the veteran community, we have these prejudices.

So I think it's really, really important for us to continue this dialogue about who we are as a community, and what we can bring, not only within our community, but outside of it, too.

So I think every little bit counts.

Bambi>> Can I throw something in here?

I got out on 100% disability for something that's not visible.

And I think, again, you can be a female and invisible, you can be disabled and be invisible with that disability.

Desiree>> Yeah.

Bambi>> And I think that the civilian population needs to educate themselves.

I hear stories constantly about women parking in a veteran parking space and being told, you can't park there, that's for your husband, or you're not a vet, get out of that space, or you don't look disabled, why are you parked in the handicap spot?

Desiree>> Yeah.

Bambi>> That happened to me one time.

A woman rolled up, said, "You don't look handicapped to me".

"You need to get out of that space."

Bambi>> And I ran up to her.

Her window was about halfway down.

I ran up to her, and I licked her windows, and I said, "Sometimes it's mental!"

So just playing', just playing' with her.

Desiree>> (laughs) Oh, my God!

Bambi>> But I think she remembered the rest of her life.

Desiree>> Absolutely!

(interposing voices) Bambi>> And sometimes it takes that kind of a moment.

Desiree>> Yeah.

Bambi>> But that, on Veteran's Day, when they have the restaurants, just because I don't have on a t-shirt or a baseball cap that says "woman veteran" on it, and I've even had that cap on, and still been asked that question, are you really a veteran?

Stacy>> Mm-hmm.

Stacy>> No, I dress this way just for Halloween, you know?

Stacy>> Well, I have a walking billboard with Charlie Bambi>> You really do.

Stacy>> that says, "Vet dogs on it".

And so many people say, "Are you training him for a veteran?"

Bambi>> Still.

Stacy>> And that, you know I used to get frustrated with that, but now I find it as an opportunity to say, well, veterans look like you and me in our community, and our nation, which is so diverse, and so rich, and cultured, and that's who we are.

The whole goal of basic training is to take our nation's best and brightest, and bring them together, and make them a team, and to bring glory and honor to our country.

So we, as veterans, will continue to do that, and advocate for the unseen, as you say, and make the changes that need to be made for those who are coming behind us.

And I think it's happening one step at a time, and that's all we can really do.

(uplifting instrumental music) There will be light.

There is a road Marching on coming home.