After Action

-Since the military and law enforcement share a culture of discipline, teamwork, and leadership, many military veterans are drawn to law enforcement careers at all levels.

What brought you or what drew you into a law enforcement career post-service?

-It's more of a mind-set than anything else.

You just get so used to having the adrenaline dump.

-So you're seeking the familiarity of the structure, the camaraderie, and maybe the adrenaline.

-The adrenaline kick is there.

It's constantly there because you don't know what you're rolling into.

Every every front door you walk up to, you're looking at it -- Is it a fatal funnel?

-How much of the integration is seamless for you?

Or did you find the transition was hard?

-There's a lot of people that are vets in law enforcement.

Being around those guys, that was that structure, that basic-training-type structure.

Leaving the military, it was just that structure was gone, like instantaneously.

It's like, "Hmm, this is weird."

I didn't have any intention of being in law enforcement when I first retired.

And I think, like, Paul said the same thing.

Like, I did not want to.

-When you said you were seeking the camaraderie and the structure, did you find that in the law enforcement units that you ultimately found yourself in?

-The camaraderie never really fell for me.

I've been lucky to have that.

I have to have it.

I live off of it.

So it's what makes me tick.

And a lot of the people that I hire are military background, and most of them are military police, either Navy or Army.

You know, I'll hire them quicker than I will somebody that's just coming off the street.

-Hi.

I'm Stacy Pearsall, retired Air Force combat photographer, and in this episode, I sit down with Paul Naples, Erik Salus, and Dwayne Gunther, three veterans who have chosen to exchange boots for badges after action.

- There will be light There is a road Marching on Coming home [ Birds chirping ] Major funding for After Action is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina, the proud partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio, and by America's Vet Dogs.

-Dwayne, Paul, Erik, thank you so much for coming to LowCountry Acres and taking the time to talk to me about your experiences after action.

I want to talk a little bit about what led you to military service to begin with, your branch of service of choice, and what your jobs were in the military.

I want to start with you, Dwayne.

Talk to me a little bit about why you chose the Air Force.

-I've always wanted to be a police officer.

So at the age of 16, I joined a Boy Scout law enforcement post in my hometown and knew that I wasn't gonna be able to be a police officer at that time until I was 21 so I needed to do something else.

So I joined the Air Force.

And when my first enlistment was over with, I was loving the Air Force as a security policeman.

And I continued to do that until I retired 30 years later.

-A lot happens in 30 years, though.

I mean, that's... [ Laughter ] -My goal was always to help people.

You have to be willing to go in first to take care of people and missions and such.

You can't be that one to be afraid.

So you have to have that mentality.

And so that's me.

And that's what I've always done.

-Do you come from a family of military?

-Yeah.

Background Marines.

So I was kind of like the black sheep of the family, I thought there for a little bit.

-I can relate to that.

-Yeah.

My uncle, who was a diehard Marine, he told my father that that was probably the smartest move I ever made.

So after that, I was okay with that decision.

-Retired Air Force Chief Master Sergeant Dwayne Gunther's enlisted career spanned 30 years in security forces, where he held many high-level positions before his military retirement in 2008.

He seamlessly transitioned to civil service, becoming the first civilian operations officer for the 437 Security Forces Squadron.

He currently serves as the deputy director to the Commander of the Air Mobility Command's 628th Security Forces Squadron in Charleston, South Carolina.

-Well, for me, it was just a lot of dead-end jobs as a kid.

Signed myself out of high school at 18 just 'cause I was over dealing with school, and went to work on the tugboats in New York.

So then finally decided it was time to get my life back in gear, so I went back to night school, got my high school diploma, signed up for the Air Force.

Took the ASVAB wanting to be a firefighter, but apparently I scored a little too high on the ASVAB.

So I got sent to the medical field.

Spent, what, all four years at Andrews Air Force Base doing aeromedical evacuation stuff.

Went to work as an EMT because I just didn't have the money to challenge a test for either paramedic or PA.

I did a few other things in between, then decided to go work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons for about a year, and while I was there, a guy that I met was actually former Secret Service, and he was telling me all about the job, and I was like, "Well, how do you apply?"

He goes, "Just go on their website and apply."

So did, and there it was a year later, I got the phone call just as I finished count.

"Do you still want the job?"

"Yeah."

So then it was off to training, and nine months later, there I was, standing outside the Oval Office.

Did 21 years with them.

I work in patrol protection.

Been all over the world, places that I never want to go back to -- Beirut.

Didn't say that out loud.

[ Chuckles ] Retired from the Secret Service last July and went to work for the county police down in Horry County.

Started out as a Police Explorer when I was a young kid, like 15 years old, and I guess it just always sat there with me.

Always in the back of my mind.

I mean, I didn't really, honestly, at the time, think I'd be able to make it through a police academy just 'cause I was so beat up from playing hockey for so many years as a kid.

But managed to get through it, and back to it I went.

-Paul Naples served in the Air Force as a medical service specialist before separating from the military and briefly working as an EMT and corrections officer.

He eventually joined the Secret Service, and for 21 years, he traveled the world protecting presidents, vice presidents, and foreign heads of state.

He presently serves as a patrol officer in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.

-I was in college.

Started out with the volunteer fire department, EMS, was doing all that, and then was working in the hospital and emergency room for a couple years.

I met my wife and then was like -- well, my soon-to-be wife at that point -- And I was like, "I need a job, a real job."

So talking to my father-in-law, and he had served in Vietnam, and he was like, "Hey, have you thought about the military?"

I'm like, "Not really."

But I went down and met with the Army recruiter, and he sold me pretty good.

[ Laughter ] And enlisted as a medical laboratory technician initially.

And got sent from there, once I got done with that training, to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, home of the MPs, and finished up my college degree because I told my parents, "Even though I'm enlisted, I'm gonna finish my college education."

-Erik Salus has served in the US Army and has been working in the public safety and law enforcement field for 30 years.

Prior to retiring as a major, Erik held numerous positions within the military police field, including serving as the provost marshal for the United States Military Academy at West Point, and company commander of the 212th Military Police Detachment, which serves as security for presidents.

Now Erik serves students and faculty at the University of South Carolina Beaufort, where he is chief of police.

-With OCS as an MP officer.

Graduated there.

Spent some time at Fort Benning as a SWAT commander and duty officer, law enforcement on Fort Benning, Georgia.

And then, did my first deployment to Iraq, where I was slotted as the team chief for the Karbala province, partnered with the Iraqi police to teach them policing, which we did -- a small team of guys.

We would sleep in the police station with them, go on patrol with them, train them, get them equipment to get them back up and running after the initial push through there.

Came home and then spent a stint with the Marines before I took command at Fort Belvoir, where I did a lot of presidential-security- type missions, inauguration support in the DC area.

So it was a pretty cool place to do that along with law enforcement.

Did do a second tour in Iraq before that, and then went to West Point, where I was the provost marshal up there and got my first kind of real stint of policing in a higher-education environment, which was interesting.

And I was able to pour into the cadets to, you know, help them through their start of their military career.

So when I retired and I was, like, trying to figure out what I was gonna do and ended up at the university.

Worked my way up through there, and was still able to mentor kids, you know?

So, for me, it's like still serving, and just that sense of putting other people before yourself, for me.

That and just being around people I feel comfortable with in that regard.

-You know, each of you had a military career, and some of you went immediately into government.

Dwayne, was that by design?

Did you plan out, "I'm going right from Air Force, 30 years military career, I'm not even gonna take a breath.

I'm just gonna go right from hanging up the uniform, chief's uniform, to a GS position, right into law enforcement, like there's nothing"?

What was that like?

Was that pre-planned?

-No.

Actually, like I said, that Explorer post at 16, I loved it.

I wanted to be a cop.

I wanted to be a West Virginia state trooper.

That was my goal.

Knew I wasn't going to even be able to compete for that till I was 21.

So that's when I decided to join the military.

At my four-year mark, I was getting out because I had the experience I needed to be a West Virginia state trooper.

And I decided against it because I loved the military.

I was doing well, I was getting promoted, I was leading people.

And so I continued to serve and do that.

I knew closer to the end of my service time, because I had to get out at 30, that the Department of the Air Force was starting a police officer department of the Air Force, GS-type force.

And I wanted to get in on the ground floor of that.

So I worked towards getting that and, you know, put in my rsum.

And I actually was the first operation -- assistant operations officer as a DAF employee in the Air Mobility Command.

So it's all I've ever wanted to do.

I plan on retiring end of next year, and that's all I have done in my whole career from the time I was 18.

-What was the decision like going from Secret Service into the police force?

-When I originally started looking, my goal was not to be a cop anymore.

After 21 years traveling all over the world, I mean, missing, what, 18 of my daughter's 20 birthdays due to the job, it was just I wanted to be home weekends.

I wanted to be able to go on regular vacations, so forth and so on.

So I was kind of looking at heads of security for different corporations, stuff like that.

When you put out 150 applications and you just get denial letter after denial letter -- "Your rsum is really impressive, but we decided to go another route," I just finally decided, all right, maybe it's just time to go back to police work, so I applied to Horry County.

The chief there was a former Arlington County cop up from Virginia, and as soon as he saw where I was coming from, he was all about hiring me, so... -Where do the denial letters come from?

Like, where were you applying to, Home Depot?

-No.

Places like Volvo -- the Volvo plant down here.

That was one of them.

BMW was another one that I applied to.

I actually did get a phone call back from a contractor for one of the Navy bases down here for a laboratory to work security for them.

However, coming from a medical background and then wanting me to work in an infectious disease laboratory -- you had to weigh the risks with the positives, and the risks were a little higher, so... -I guess I look at it like this.

Looking at somebody who has military experience or law enforcement experience, 20-, 30-some-odd years, are you feeling like you're getting pigeonholed in a way?

Or are they looking at you like you maybe have risk because of your background in terms of "Maybe they're carrying around a little bit too much baggage," whether that's law enforcement or combat experience?

Or what do you think they're thinking?

Like, as the veteran who's sitting back, putting your rsums out, what's going through your head when you're getting these rejection letters?

-To be really honest with you, I mean, I don't know.

I just -- I don't think about that kind of thing.

It's like, okay, they don't want me.

They found somebody else or they're hiring from somebody they know.

-Okay.

-Which was -- Now, not gonna say where I know this from, but a couple people actually told me, "Look, you're applying to a job where it's an inside job."

It -- I mean, was it hurtful?

Yeah, in some aspects.

I mean, it would have been nice to actually take a corporate job instead of being, you know, strapped up with 30 pounds of vest and equipment and everything else.

But it is what it is.

You know, I'm still agile enough to be able to jump on people and fight with suspects and whatever else, so... [ Laughter ] I mean, you know, I mean, it's got its ups, it's got its downs, but it's still -- you know, I'm still putting service before self.

So it's something I know all too well.

-I kind of went through the same boat with him, you know, denial letter, denial letter, denial letter.

And I'm like, "What is going on?"

And I think some of it is just -- Sometimes I think the military service piece isn't really looked at as -- Especially if you're looking at, like, you know, higher-level jobs, not necessarily like entry-level-type jobs of, well, how does that correlate?

And I think having to tweak your rsum to really change from the mil speak to... -Civilian.

-...to civilian speak is... And trying to capitalize everything that we can bring to the table for an organization -- I think that's part of the issue is how do you capitalize?

I've led, you know, 200, you know, guys and girls in a combat zone.

How do I translate those skills to leadership, to where they understand what I'm giving and what I have?

-There is a big disconnect with that.

-Yes.

-A big disconnect.

-I think it's a lot to do with inexperience with the military, because what you said exactly is right.

I mean, they don't understand that, you know, I led 472 cops.

Okay?

Logistics, admin, investigations, operations, all these SWATs and everything else.

Even if you have that in your rsum, they don't really know how to explain that even though their police agencies have the same thing.

And they may only have 50, 80 cops, you know?

And you're bringing a whole breadth of experience, and they don't really understand that.

So it's kind of like a standoff.

-I think some of it, too, especially in the policing world, we look at it like some of these bases are big cities.

On any given day, you've got 40,000, 50,000 people on a military installation that you're patrolling, just like, you know, anybody would in a regular city.

Especially when you're looking at corporate jobs, not necessarily police.

It's very easy for police, local, like, law enforcement -- Like, I can look at a military member's rsum when they apply to my department, and I can go, "Okay.

I understand what he's trying to say."

But not everybody has somebody in a position where they can look at that military member's rsum and go, "Okay.

I know exactly what he's done.

I know kind of where he's at," he or she's at, "and can, you know -- I got a position for them to go, you know, that they can do."

-But to others, obviously, it doesn't.

-No.

-I mean, I didn't even think about what you said.

You look at it from my standpoint, I mean, you look at the command post or the, you know, whatever on the Secret Service side.

I can't say what really went on in there, so I can't really elaborate on it when it comes to my rsum or anything like that.

I have to make it very generic.

-Yeah.

-As you know, there's a lot of things we can't say, so... -Do you think that's why so many military members are attracted to law enforcement careers post-military, regardless of whether they had security forces or military police background while in military service?

What is so appealing about a law enforcement career after the military?

-Probably the structure.

-The structure.

-Camaraderie.

-Yeah.

Trust.

-Yeah.

Structure.

-a lot of trust.

-The structure is a big thing, too, because it's a big transition, like, leaving the military, whether you retire or whether you just, you know, get out.

And then you go from having structure one day, and the next day, it's like, "Oh, I don't have to put in a three-day pass to go 150 miles away.

Like, I can just go wherever I want to go."

So then it's like you go from structure to none.

And then I think people start to go, like, "I need that structure.

I need that camaraderie with my fellow veterans," or... And, you know, having that structure, even in the police department, like, having those bonds that bring you together, I think that's the biggest draw.

At least it was for me.

-It's easier to get along with other people that were in the military than somebody who just, say, fresh out of college or something like that, because they just can't relate to what you've gone through, whereas somebody else in the military can.

Or that was military.

-I'm in 100% agreement.

And a lot of the people that I hire are military background, and most of them are military police, either Navy, Army, you know?

I'll hire them quicker than I will somebody that's just coming off the street, even though we do hire some just coming off the street.

So it all depends on that mentality that they're looking for when you do that interview, really, I think.

-Mm-hmm.

-Each of you had a transition out of the service.

It seemed that both of you had pretty seamless military to law enforcement careers because you went from law enforcement to law enforcement, essentially.

I'm curious what it would have looked like if you were like the rest of us that had a little bit of a floundering, from, like, military service to "I don't know what I'm gonna do next."

What would that have been like for you?

-Well, I can say that my wife was active duty when I retired, so I'd have been a military spouse for a while as I figured out what I was gonna do.

I would have followed her around until she retired, so... But I would have eventually figured it out.

But I kind of already knew.

-You would have been a househusband for a while?

-I would have.

I'd have been more than happy to take care of the children.

-That's fair.

-Stay-at-home dog dad.

-Yeah.

I got great children.

-I floundered a bit.

I went into -- I thought I wanted to be a teacher.

So I was substituting in the schools, the local schools.

It's like, I can do this.

But then I was like, "Oh, something's missing for me."

Like, and it was that camaraderie piece.

I didn't feel that same camaraderie as I had in the military.

And then I was like, "Okay.

Now what?"

And my daughter was playing soccer at the college, and I ran into some of the cops at the college, and I'm like, "Okay.

Now I've figured it out."

And that's when I was like, "I don't want to be a teacher anymore.

Let me go back to what I know."

And that's kind of how I ended up.

So it was fairly seamless, but there was a gap of about three months where I was kind of going down a different path for me.

-So you go through the Army TAPs -- Army Transition Assistance Program, which is the silliest name ever and is the worst program.

But anyway, so you go through what they call "assistance training."

-Correct.

-And it's the day after you get out, and you've got to figure out what you're gonna wear.

-Yep.

-How did that go?

-Took my wife to Men's Wearhouse to get a suit 'cause I didn't own anything but a military dress uniform.

And for 20 years, I haven't had to figure out what I need to wear at all.

So then it was like, "Does this match?"

You know, like, green is green.

Like, why can't I wear green on green anymore?

-Do you still have the same suit, though?

-I do have the same suits.

I do.

But, yeah, it was just -- it was different.

Like, there was no, like, "Okay, it's 6:30.

You're supposed to be out at the PT field, like, to do PT."

Like, it was just that structure was gone, like instantaneously.

It's like, "Hmm, this is weird."

And...And then just figuring out what I really wanted to do.

Like, I didn't have any intention of being in law enforcement when I first retired.

Like, I didn't.

And I think, like, Paul said the same thing.

Like, I did not want to.

And then it was like, "Okay, well, this is comfort."

And that's kind of where I went back to.

-You talked about the way that military handles mass casualties being different than how civilians handle mass casualties.

Can you explain to me, like -- How do they differ?

What do these folks do differently from each other?

-So, basically, mass casualty incidents on a civilian side is more handled by the fire department.

And I mean, down here, the fire department and EMS are intertwined, whereas the police literally go in, they drag a person out to a safe point, boom, drop, right back in.

Military side, it's literally people are bringing the patients to you, and then you're triaging, treating, transporting, caring.

-I think if you look at it from the military standpoint, like, right when you're deployed or downrange and you're -- your convoy gets hit or whatever and you're doing everything.

Like you're doing the medical -- the medical piece, you're doing the transport piece to get them out of there and everything else or calling for the medevac or whatever.

Where here, like, you're going in and it's the fire department that's doing the medical piece.

-Yes.

So it's definitely two separate entities versus where in your platoon or your fire team, like, you're doing it all.

-What is it that a military member, their experience, they're going to -- What is it that they're going to bring that may -- from their military experience that they're going to bring that may have prepared them, say, from somebody who doesn't have a military experience or background?

-To me, it's discipline and observation, because they are more keen, aware of their surroundings and can really see something that's possibly out of place.

It gives them a little bit of an edge, I think.

-Well, yeah, I would say that.

A lot of military guys are like, "That's weird."

Like, you know.

-Yeah, we go check it out.

-Go check it out.

You know, something that may just kind of blend in, like, especially, you know, when you've been deployed and you're like -- you spent, you know, time looking and going, "That's weird.

That's weird.

That's weird."

Or you'll be walking around and go, "Okay, that doesn't make sense.

Let me go check it out."

But the vet, like, their alert system definitely seems to be a little bit more heightened, initially, as a new -- coming into the police department.

A lot of your police department guys that have been on the job for, you know, five, eight years.

Their radar is pretty well tuned, too.

So I think eventually it kind of blends itself together and in, but initially, it's like, "Okay, I got a rookie that's had military experience, but he's got an awareness, a definite awareness about him."

-A good example of that is most police tests now actually have a section where they give you a picture to look at, and you get like a minute to look at it or whatever it is, and then they take the picture away and they say, "Okay, what did you see?"

And then you got to list what you saw in that picture.

Anybody that's been military is gonna know things that are out of place, where they were, or whatever else, and they're going to write that down, whereas somebody who's coming out of college is gonna look at it and go, "All right, I'm looking at a picture.

Now what?"

And they'll write down, maybe, you know, a few of the things that are on there, whereas somebody from the military, who's used to looking for things out of the ordinary, is gonna list the more unordinary things that they see in the picture.

-That's interesting.

-You would do that.

-I probably would, but I'm a photographer, so I tend to look at -- I tend to look at things a little less ordinarily.

I'm curious, too, because I know I tend to -- I tend to operate better when I'm under pressure.

Unlike other people, I'm a high-functioning person when I'm under stress.

Do you find that that's the same way when you're working with military veterans in your -- -Yeah, I think so.

And I think a key component of that is that, from early on, from basic training or officer candidate school or an academy, like, you're put under a lot of stress just through your training.

So you're used to operating that way.

So when something does happen, like, it's instantaneous.

It's ingrained.

-You don't think.

-You're not having to think because it's already there.

-It's reactionary.

-Yep.

-You automatically, like you said, go forward instead of backwards.

-Because we train in a high-stress environment, right?

-Right.

-So, in the military, but also, you know, in the police department, like, we put our guys under stress because we want to be able to function.

You want to keep that -- You want to widen that scope of focus where, when stuff starts going around, like, you know, your windows, start to close a little bit... -It's all about the training.

-...and now it's like, open it back up.

If you keep putting somebody in that position, they're gonna -- And that's through training.

-The more reps you get, the better you are.

That's why we really stress shoot, move, and communicate.

We do a lot of simulator training.

We do a lot of stuff.

You know, some of the younger guys and gals, they'll, "Ugh!

Not again," you know?

And then, when something happens, you're like, "Oh, gosh, I'm glad I got that training."

Because it's automatic and because your brain's fed it and fed it and fed it.

And then, once it really happens, then that's where you know that it's taken place.

-Has there been an instance from... Like, where you've repetitively trained, over and over and over... where you've had to use that, where it became muscle memory and it unfolded at a time in your career that you could share?

-Are you specifically talking about, like, in the military?

Are you talking about, like, on the job now?

-Any time.

Maybe it was from your time in the military that you applied now or... -Yeah.

I mean, I look back at it too, because obviously my first deployment was '04-'05 time frame, to Iraq, and we were running the roads pretty heavily.

And we got ambushed pretty bad, and I was the convoy commander, so...And it's still, like, pretty vivid.

Like, I can see the truck.

And not only did they -- They had targeted certain areas and they, you know, had indirect fire coming around us and everything else.

But being in command of that, I'm like, "Hey, we need to push."

But then I'm like, "Okay."

We start speeding the vehicle up, and then I'm like, "Okay.

Are they pushing us into a bomb?

So I'm like, "We need to back off."

And so, like -- But we had trained enough of that and done that in our pre-deployment training.

And through the training I had with my guys before we left, like, we know, "Hey, we're gonna push through, because you push through and IED blast, right?

So we push through, and then it's like, "Okay.

What's next?"

And so, like, for us, it came very easy.

So we get back to the base, and my guys are like, "That didn't even really bother you."

And I'm like, "We trained it.

Like, it became natural, you know, when it happened.

And if I freak out, like, all y'all are gonna freak out."

So, like, being able to keep that pressure, that calmness with each other, that's one thing that sticks out for me where that training really kicked in from those repetitions.

And that's from the deployment standpoint.

-Mine's a little different.

I mean, I think the position that I am in now is because of past experiences and training.

I'll just give you some quick examples.

In Texas, Carswell, which doesn't exist anymore, I mean, I delivered a baby on the flight line during an air show.

Rescued a family out of a burning vehicle that caused a head-on collision.

You know, I responded to a Chinook crash, where they took 19 Army guys' lives, and I was the on-scene commander for that.

So there's a lot of training that we did.

I didn't know how to deliver a baby.

I don't want to say that, but... [ Laughter ] ...I had enough experience being taught my medical stuff as a first responder that I was able to get through that as the ambulance came up and the baby's in my hands.

So it was timing, really.

But the crash scene and all that stuff, you know, you're trained on securing aircraft crashes, and you're trained on all these things, and it was almost, like, automatic, you know?

That training just kicks in.

That repetitive.

So that's how, in our positions now, you know the value of training and how important it is.

They may not see it because, "Oh, I got to go to another training class," or, "I got to watch this PowerPoint presentation" or, "I have to --" You know, you get those complaints.

But when when it happens... -It's when you realize it.

-Yeah.

You realize the value of it.

-When you were handling that mass casualty, can you talk to me a little bit about -- as much as you're comfortable with -- what that day was like for you?

-The helicopter?

-Yeah.

-When I got up there, most of the fire was out 'cause it landed in a field and all that stuff.

All 19 perished, but the investigation started, and it wasn't like we were able to do any casualty assistance because they were all passed already.

But it was just different securing it.

And it took about -- I don't know -- 10, 12 hours before they were even able to remove all of them, all from Fort Sill, coming from Fort Hood.

But it was hard to be there for that night shift after being up all day and being there all night when you have that... the casualties still in place without being removed.

Because they weren't removed for about 10 hours in.

You know, and you're protecting them so they don't get desecrated or anything like that.

And it's hard seeing that situation unfold.

But it was handled well.

The state did a great job.

They were all handled with dignity and respect.

But it takes a toll on you, too.

-So just kind of bookending, let's say I'm just somebody who's a civilian living near a proximity of a military base, whether it's Air Force, Army, Marines, or whatever.

How do I know -- I'm living just off of base, and you're there -- Like, who has jurisdiction?

Where?

Like, what's happening?

-It's very confusing.

And it's really the landowner... -Okay.

-...who owns the land.

So if it's federal, it's called exclusive.

If it's, like, the cities, it can be what's called proprietary.

So they have the jurisdiction.

I have the jurisdiction over the military.

They have the jurisdiction over the civilian populace.

And then we have concurrent, where we both share that.

So... -But a lot of the exterior roads around bases are concurrent jurisdiction.

-Yeah.

Exactly.

So it all depends on... -But I think that's what makes a military police -- name the service -- very good as far as dealing with that, because one, they've dealt with it, especially when they've come over to the civilian side.

But every time they move, they have to learn new state law.

-Oh.

-Or they might be at a base where the state line crosses through the base and they've got to know two and determine where they are on the base.

They're like, "Okay.

What state statute am I using to write?"

So you have guys that have moved eight times and they've had to learn eight different codes of law.

-I guess that does make sense.

Somebody who has prior military service would be pretty well versed in all of this.

-It is.

-That makes sense.

-But like you said, it's so different in every place.

I mean, we have a whole training plan just to talk about jurisdiction, because... -Jurisdiction is a big deal.

-Yeah.

Worst-case scenario, we arrest someone and we don't have jurisdiction.

It could be a felony.

It's getting thrown out of court.

-Really?

-Yeah.

That's how important it is when it comes to jurisdiction.

-Wow.

-So it's a big training thing for us.

-Talk to me a little bit about the climate for law enforcement.

You know, obviously from a military perspective, we get put on a pedestal a lot, right?

And we wear the uniform.

We put our lives on the altar of freedom.

And so with that comes a lot of gratitude.

With law enforcement, I think especially nowadays, I mean, for the most part, there's a lot of respect with that uniform.

But on the flip side of the coin, people look at you with a level of skepticism as well.

How does that feel going from, you know... with that amount of respect to that amount of skepticism?

Do you guys go back and forth with that?

How does that feel, being from boots to badges, essentially?

-So, I mean, from my standpoint, coming from the DC area, there is a big difference between the way people react to cops up there as opposed to down here.

I get thanked for my service down here almost daily.

So there's a big difference between the north and the south.

-So it's a regional thing, maybe?

Cultural as well, maybe?

-That and, I mean, if anything big happened recently -- Like, after 9/11, everybody loved the cops.

Everybody loved firefighters.

Um, maybe five, six years after that, they just kind of forgot about it.

Then, of course, you get the anniversary of 9/11.

Everybody loves the cops again for a few months, and then it's right back to the way it was.

-Okay.

-So it really all depends on where you're at.

-Mm-hmm.

-I mean, I'm the same way.

I mean, you know, if I swing in somewhere in town or I'm out of town, a lot of thank-yous.

I mean, the kids at the college, you know, get a lot of that too, down here for for us.

-I think after an incident where a cop made a bad decision or hurt somebody or shot somebody when they shouldn't have -- and depending on how the media... -Portrays it.

-Yeah.

I think then it gives us a bad name, 'cause I would say almost everybody in law enforcement is there for a specific reason, and that's to help people.

And if they're not, they should be in a different profession.

But I think that has a lot to do with it, is the perception of the onesies and twosies versus the 25,000 that are out there serving every day.

-I mean, and it's not just a job.

It's definitely -- It's a profession.

It's service above self.

You know, and that's kind of where -- You do 20 years in the military.

You served, right?

And then it's like, I still have -- Like for me, I feel like I have more to give, which is why I continued to -- why I made that jump.

-You don't take this job for the paycheck.

You take it 'cause you want to help people.

-Definitely.

For sure.

[ Chuckles ] Definitely the right answer.

-Do you consider yourself a military veteran or a law enforcement veteran?

-I will always consider myself a military veteran.

-First and foremost.

-Yeah.

I can't be more prouder of the 30 years that I served to this nation than anything else in my life.

And I'll always be grateful for that opportunity.

-I agree.

It's hard to say.

I mean, it definitely that.

But I'm still doing law enforcement, so I can't really speak on that other half.

But, you know, I mean, right now, like, I love talking to people about the military and about my experience.

You know, at the military academy in West Point, it was very easy.

You're dealing with individuals who are coming into the service, so you can have those conversations.

But even now, like, walking around the campus at school, kids will be like, "Hey, I heard you were in the military.

Can you talk to me about it?"

And then I'm like, "Absolutely.

Let's sit down and have lunch."

And we'll have a conversation, because some of them are like, "Hey, I just don't know what I want to do with my life.

I've been here in college, and I just don't know what to do."

-Do you sway them to the Army?

-Absolutely.

Absolutely.

[ Laughter ] -They're already at the academy, though.

-I'm sorry.

-No.

No, this is even down here at USCB.

-Oh, down here.

-Down here at USCB, they'll be like, "Hey, I heard you were in the military.

Can you talk to me about it?"

"Let's go have lunch."

And we'll have a conversation.

Like, "What do you want to do?"

And that's the big thing.

Like, you know, you've got to want to serve.

It's not like, "Oh, it's just a job."

Like we talked about with law enforcement, it's not just a job.

Like, you're called to do certain things.

So, you know, they want to hear about it.

I'll tell them about it, and they'll be like, "Oh, it's pretty cool.

Like, that's interesting."

And they'll be like, "How do I go about doing it?"

"I got some friends I'd like you to meet," you know?

And go down and have that conversation.

But, you know, it's... Like, I'm very proud of my military service.

I'm proud, you know, my sons followed in my footsteps.

Like, I'm proud that we've continued to serve.

And I'm sure you guys are probably feeling the same way.

-It sounds to me that each of you talk about, you know, being a law enforcement officer is so much more than just enforcing the law.

It sounds like each of you are more, like, on a day-to-day, mentors in some way.

Is that a safe assumption?

-I'd say in the position I am right now, yeah, for sure.

-Yeah.

Me too.

I'm talking to officers and security specialists and stuff like that daily.

Somebody's got to replace me, and you know, you got to do mentoring to get that training.

-Train your replacement and your replacement's replacement.

-That's right.

That's just the way we've always thought.

-We learned that in the military, right?

-That's right.

-I mean, Secret Service, we dealt with the public all the time.

I mean, if you've ever been to a presidential event, you come to one of our checkpoints.

We deal with the public.

You have to explain to them what to do.

People are walking up.

They have no clue.

Explain everything to them.

"Oh, okay."

Right through.

On a civilian side, as a police officer here in the county, you're responding to calls for, you know, the most ironic things that you would expect somebody would not call 911 for versus somebody that's having a domestic dispute.

You get the people separated, get them calmed down, everything's good.

So it's all about talking to people, really, being a cop, more than anything else.

If you can talk to somebody and actually build a rapport with them, nine times out of ten, things will calm down and they'll -- You know, they go from the worst part of their life -- I'm not gonna say it's going all the way to the bottom, but they're somewhere in the middle now where they're actually starting to think straight.

-It's a lot of emotion.

You have to be able to deal with that emotion.

And if you can do that, you're key.

Because a lot of people, they -- You know, domestic-wise is probably our worst response.

I mean, it's the most dangerous.

We know that.

But we call it verbal judo, where you... [ Laughter ] You have to be able to calm the situation.

And once you calm the situation, it's really easy after that.

-Now, I read that's one of the biggest -- Like, one of the draws for military members after leaving the service is, you know, they're trying to seek that adrenaline high that they got in the military.

Whether they were combat vets or not, they're seeking that adrenaline high and that risk factor or that unknown.

Do you guys get that from -- that sort of risk factor, that unknown... -Yes.

-...doing law enforcement?

-I mean, it's literally what keeps me going.

I mean, I am literally fueled by caffeine and nicotine.

[ Laughter ] That and the adrenaline.

I mean, you start fighting somebody three times your size, twice your size, you've got to be able to -- you know, that adrenaline kick is what keeps you in a fight.

One of the things that cops always train for is if you ever get shot or hurt or something like that, stay in the fight no matter what.

It's pretty much the same thing in the military.

You go down, you keep your gun in your hand, and you keep the fight going until you can't fight anymore.

The adrenaline kick is there.

It's constantly there 'cause you don't know what you're rolling into.

Every front door you walk up to, you're looking at it -- Is it a fatal funnel?

Car stops, which both of you can attest to, you don't know what you're walking up to in that car.

Down here, window tint's legal.

Some people's tinted windows are darker than they should be.

But you're walking up to their car.

Their windows are up.

You can't see inside.

You just got to face up the best you can and deal with it.

But your adrenaline is pumping the entire time.

-I don't have that adrenaline kick as much as I used to 'cause, you know, I'm a little farther up now.

I don't get to do as much training as I'd like to do anymore, but I remember those days.

-I also read that officers with military experience are also more likely to de-escalate a situation with a positive outcome than those without military experience.

-That's the goal.

-Now, this was a report that was done a couple of years ago.

I'm curious if that's been your experience, but obviously you're just three people in a room.

-Yeah.

I think it has something to do with it.

I don't know -- I mean, like, we go back to the training piece.

I believe that if you didn't have the military experience, you could de-escalate just as well as the person with the military background.

I just think as a military cop and then you go in to be a civilian cop, you already got that experience.

-I think some of that comes down to... -The situation?

-Not necessarily the situation, but through basic training or whatever, you're thrown into a group of people from all walks of life.

And you're deployed with them.

You're, you know, with people from different walks of life.

So you kind of have an understanding.

You have this bigger picture, this bigger worldview of cultures and people.

And I think that helps on the street for sure.

-I agree with that.

-More of a diversity of language, a diversity of culture?

-Yeah.

-Just exposure overall?

-Exposure to it.

-And maybe a more accelerated worldview.

Even if you only had four years of military experience, it would be just that much more accelerated.

I don't want to diminish law enforcement without military experience, because I feel like... Geez.

Uniformed service, period, whether you've had military service or not, that's a lot to ask somebody.

-De-escalation is always the first goal.

-Yeah.

-Always the first goal.

If you can talk somebody down, you just made everybody's day.

I mean, any type of force is always gonna be last resort.

-And we don't want to use force.

-No, we really don't.

-It's a necessity sometimes.

But that's where, I mean, we lose cops sometimes that can't deal with that first time they use force.

-Can you elaborate on that?

-There are some circumstances where, you know, if we have to make an arrest or if there's a shoot/no-shoot or whatever type of scenario that it is, that that's the last time.

They don't want to be a police officer anymore.

And we will lose people who got in a bar fight and had to make some arrests but they got themselves injured.

They don't want to do it anymore 'cause now they realize it's a little bit more serious than what they thought it was gonna be.

We do lose some like that.

-I guess after a big event or after a traumatic event happens, because you talk about these adrenaline-pinching things -- And you seem to let, like -- let it roll off your back pretty easily.

But not everybody handles those things quite that way.

What does a civilian police force or sheriff's department or campus police or... What policies now are you guys having in place for mental decompression?

What routines do you have?

What's systemic?

-There's a lot of resources out there right now.

Like, we have ability to call in chaplains and mental health professionals that would come and do a debrief to those situations when they do occur.

Each department is different.

There's a lot of different entities within even South Carolina that provide services for that de-escalation -- or that decompression-type thing.

But I think with the military guys -- you kind of alluded about Paul letting things just kind of roll off his back -- I think that's kind of the environment that we grew up in, which can be good and it can be bad.

But for me, it was like putting all that stuff in a box and not letting it own me.

That way, I owned it and it didn't own me.

And that's kind of where -- Especially after I came back the first time, I was like, "Okay.

Loud noises bother me."

You know, "These types of things bother me, and how do I compartmentalize so I own it and it's not owning me?"

Like, I was not gonna let it own me.

-I agree with Erik.

We have, you know, military health professionals for my military side.

And then for my civilian side, we have an embedded, what we call, True North counselor now, an embedded medical health professional, in my unit.

And she's able to refer my civilian counterparts to other mental health agencies.

So mental health is very important to us, where, you know, you look back 10 years ago, it wasn't as much as it is now.

And, I mean, every serious incident we do have, she comes on scene, you know, where it used to be you held that stuff in.

you know, 'cause you didn't want to get your opportunity for your gun to be taken or, you know, you can't work this job until you get better or whatever.

So there's a lot more resources out there now that we have that we used to not to have.

-Is there still that stigma, your fear of being suspended from your job for the mental health?

-Well, not for me.

-I mean, if I had to worry about that back in the day, I would never be a cop.

[ Laughter ] -But is it still a thing?

-I'm like Erik.

I compartmentalize my stuff.

And that was -- You know, I talked about serious incidents with my family, my wife.

You know, my chaplain always told me that the more you talk about it, the less the impact it's gonna have.

And you need to talk to an individual you trust.

And that's my wife.

So I don't worry about it as much as I used to back in the day.

-Yeah.

I mean, our department has what they call CIT officers, crisis intervention team members.

They're actually civilians that work for the police department.

They'll come in if need be.

We use them a lot for the mental health patients down in the county.

I think the biggest thing is just... for any officer going through anything is to just reach out and talk to somebody else.

Same thing with a vet.

Just reach out.

That's 98% of the the fight right there.

You just got to reach out and talk to somebody.

-That is huge.

The last like 20 years has been a godsend to reach out -- crisis intervention.

The VA has crisis intervention.

I mean, there's a lot.

It's just a phone call.

-Yeah.

That's all it is.

-And that'll help so much.

-What's the biggest misconception that folks have about law enforcement in general that you that you wish to... that you wish to change, maybe?

-We're people too.

-Mm-hmm.

-We live just like everybody else.

We're not out there to hunt you and take you down every single time.

-Absolutely.

-Our main goal is to protect and serve you.

I mean, that's really the case.

It's the ones that don't -- The ones who want to break the laws are the ones that we're trying to protect you from.

I mean, that's basically our job.

-Well, gentlemen, I want to thank you once more for not only your service in the military, but your your service with law enforcement and your continued service, above all else, and for continuing to protect our nation, both foreign and domestic.

And thank you for sharing your stories here and for being here and... -Thank you, Stacy.

-...just thank you.

-You're welcome.

-Thank you for having us.

-Yep.

-It was great.

- There will be light There is a road Marching on Coming home