Announcer:
The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Zac Schultz:
Extraordinary events of a Wisconsin judge’s arrest and suspension after allegedly attempting to help a man escape ICE ups the ante in the national immigration debate.
Good evening. I’m Zac Schultz, filling in for Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” we continue our congressional updates this week with Representative Mark Pocan. And on the arrest of a sitting judge, the law and the politics can’t be untangled, says Professor Howard Schweber. Then how education and resources aim to decrease gun violence in Milwaukee. It’s “Here & Now” for May 2nd.

Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Zac Schultz:
If there’s one constant with Donald Trump as president, it’s that he creates a firehose of news. And just as it appears one topic will dominate the national conversation, another issue pops up. Joining us now to talk about the Democratic response to the first 100 days of Trump’s second term in office, is Congressman Mark Pocan. Thanks for your time today.

Mark Pocan:
Yeah, thanks, Zac. I appreciate having me.

Zac Schultz:
So from DOGE to immigration to tariffs, have Democrats really found an issue to focus on when it comes to responding to Trump?

Mark Pocan:
Well, I mean, I think we all should be focused on the economy, right? That was the number one issue for Donald Trump when he got elected. Half the people in exit polls said they voted on the economy. And it’s also the number one issue hurting Donald Trump right now. Whether it be the indiscriminate use of tariffs that’s, you know, blowing the stock market up and causing prices to continue to rise. His inability to lower costs. He promised to do it day one. It’s been just the opposite in most areas. And you know, the rule of law and the chaos and the flooding the zone of so much is really hard. And it’s kind of exhausting for people who are calling into the office trying to keep up with what’s going on.

Zac Schultz:
Well, so many of Trump’s actions have come through executive orders, and many of those are now being fought over in court. And even on the topic of tariffs, some of them are announced and then rolled back. So do you think the general public actually understands what’s happened versus what is just being talked about?

Mark Pocan:
You know, one of the things Donald Trump does well for himself, and that’s usually how he does things for himself, is he floods the zone with a lot of different messages on any given issue. So you may hear what you want to hear, but, you know, just take tariffs. You know, I would defy anyone to tell me exactly where we’re at on tariffs right now, because I don’t know if I could tell you. They’re on, they’re off. Some are on, some are off, a bunch are on. Penguins are paying tariffs. And I’m not sure where we’re at today. Right. I think tomatoes just got tariffs in Mexico. So you really can’t keep up with it. But the problem is we’re hearing from a lot of business people their costs are going up because of tariffs and things that aren’t even tariffed are going up because this is a backdoor way for people to raise other costs. So at the end of the day, people are going to start paying more and more for things as Donald Trump throws these tariffs out without a real plan. And, you know, targeted tariffs can be done well. If China is dumping cheap steel in the United States, we should absolutely respond with targeted tariffs. It’s a very effective tool. But if you use a screwdriver to pound a nail in, it’s not as effective. You can’t use the same tool for everything. And that’s what Donald Trump is doing. And at the end of the day, it’s just costing people in Wisconsin and across the country more money out of their pockets, which is the opposite of what he promised.

Zac Schultz:
We had your colleague, Republican Congressman Tom Tiffany, on last week, and he said tariffs are a negotiation tactic that will ultimately lead to lower tariffs globally. He said, “You would hope over the next couple of months that with these active negotiations going on, that we’re going to see some good things happen.” What would you make of his assessment?

Mark Pocan:
You know, I think he’s going to Minnesota and getting some medical marijuana or something because I’m not sure that is an answer that anyone else honestly believes, including other Republican members of Congress I talk to. They’re concerned about tariffs. I just had a company from, in our area — I’m not going to say the name of the company — but they sell a lot to China. It’s a higher medical device. Let’s just say. And because of that with the tariffs right now, their leading market — they’re going to have a much harder time of selling to that market. And most of their stuff, 70% here is sourced in the United States, 48% just in Wisconsin. So if you start stopping those sales because of the response tariffs and the indiscriminate use the way the president’s doing, they’re feeling a real impact. And I hear that from manufacturer after manufacturer in the area. So it’s not just that consumers are paying more, it’s that companies are going to start feeling this. And we’ve even heard of some building projects starting to be canceled because of increased costs on tariffed goods, like some of the lumber that has been coming from both Canada and Mexico and aluminum costs. So right now there is not a plan, right? I think when Donald Trump answered the question in the debate about health care. They said you have a plan? He said he had a concept of a plan. Everything seems to be a concept of a plan, not a plan. At some point, we really need plans.

Zac Schultz:
Eight years ago, it was Paul Ryan leading the House during Trump’s first two years, and Republicans were largely focused on passing tax cuts and really seemed to ignore most of Trump’s other agenda. A lot of those Republicans have been replaced in Congress with Trump loyalists. So what, from your perspective, what is the difference between then and now when it comes to the Republican majority in Congress?

Mark Pocan:
Well, let me clarify one thing. The Holy Grail for the Republicans is still this tax cut for the wealthiest. That’s what they’re trying to get done by Memorial Day. I don’t think they’ll get it done by then. But the trillion and a half dollars they’re trying to steal from the middle class and those who aspire to be in the middle class through things like health care and long-term care through Medicaid, food assistance for kids, the number one program that keeps kids out of poverty, a 45% cut to federal funding for education. All of that is to pay off this tax cut that originally was estimated at $4.5 trillion dollars to extend it. Now, the Joint Committee on Taxation said, no, it’s $5.5 trillion. And that’s all money literally stolen from working class people to go to Elon Musk and Donald Trump and people who can afford to go to Mar-a-Lago. So even though the faces may have changed, the Holy Grail has not. But when you flood the zone and make people think that, you know, we’re going to talk about Greenland or Canada becoming the 51st state, things that are never going to happen, then you’re not talking about the money that’s being stolen out of your wallets in order to give Elon Musk a tax cut. And that’s why I think it’s really important that we remember, there is no difference in their agenda. It is always about their donors and the wealthiest in this country. Even more so now that you’ve got Donald Trump in office and Elon Musk, an unelected billionaire turning on and off federal funds, turning off funds for programs that middle class people rely on. So I really just want to keep the focus on that.

Zac Schultz:
You’ve been part of a trend of Democratic members of Congress holding town halls in Republican districts. And part of this is to call out Republicans for not holding their own public forums. But what are you hearing from people? Are they just local Democrats coming to talk to a Democrat, or are they other constituents?

Mark Pocan:
Yeah, this is the ultimate common-sense test, right? It doesn’t pass the smell test. If you say you’re doing something good for the American people, but instead of doing town halls to share that information, you’d want to go on the rooftop, right, with a megaphone and scream it if you’re doing something good. You’re hiding in your basement and not doing town halls. And Republican leadership has told Republican members not to do town halls. Well, I smell that. And that smells pretty bad. What they’re doing, again, is stealing money from us to do this tax cut. So I’m going to make sure that people in Wisconsin aren’t getting ripped off. So I’ve done several town halls in Derrick Van Orden’s district. He’s never done an open, public town hall in two and a half years. So, you know, people want to be heard. I did one last week in La Crosse, and 350 plus people showed up. They want to talk about those cuts to Medicaid and long-term care. Don’t forget that’s 1.3 million people in Wisconsin. 55% of seniors in nursing homes get help from Medicaid. One out of three kids in Wisconsin gets their health insurance from Medicaid. So, you know, that’s why they’re hiding in their basements, because they don’t want to talk about what they’re actually doing. And just the opposite needs to happen. People need to be heard. That’s why the turnout was so big in that April election. People just want to be heard. And that’s why we’re doing the town halls to make sure people can be heard.

Zac Schultz:
All right. Congressman Mark Pocan, thanks for your time today.

Mark Pocan:
Yeah. Thank you.

Zac Schultz:
The Wisconsin Supreme Court this week announced they were temporarily suspending Milwaukee County Judge Hannah Dugan “in order to uphold the public’s confidence in the courts of this state.” Dugan was arrested and charged in federal court with obstructing federal immigration officials in their efforts to arrest an illegal immigrant following an appearance in her courtroom. Reactions to these events have remained political. Democratic U.S. Senator Tammy Baldwin said, “the President’s administration arresting a sitting judge is a gravely serious and drastic move… While details of this exact case remain minimal, this action fits into the deeply concerning patterns of this President’s lawless behavior and undermining courts and Congress’s checks on his power.” While Republican Assembly Speaker Robin Vos said, “these are serious charges, and it’s important to remember no one is above the law. We are reviewing the situation, and if the charges result in a conviction, we will act. Judge Dugan’s decision to hide a dangerous illegal immigrant was irresponsible and put public safety at risk.” Joining us now is UW-Madison Professor Emeritus Howard Schweber. Thanks for your time.

Howard Schweber:
Well, thanks for having me.

Zac Schultz:
So what is your opinion of the case put forward by the federal government? Did they have grounds to make an arrest here?

Howard Schweber:
Well, we have to keep in mind that the only facts we have to go on are those contained in the complaint, right? And there’s a reason we don’t take complaints at face value. That’s why we have trials. So based — but based only on those facts, and assuming everything that is alleged in the complaint is true. Yeah, they’ve got a pretty strong case. The ICE agents were in the public areas of the courthouse where law enforcement is permitted by both law and tradition, to make arrests. It appears the judge very much went out of her way to help this guy evade arrest. It was not a matter of simply, like, pointing to a door. It was — there was much more to it than that according to the allegations. So if these facts bear out, and if she is convicted on the basis of the complaint as it stands, I would say that the case against her is pretty strong. At that point, I think there would be no doubt that the state Supreme Court, as well as the state legislature, would take action to remove her from the bench.

Zac Schultz:
Now her case will play out in federal court. But what’s the impact in other courtrooms? Is there any doubt that the Trump administration was trying to send a message to all judges everywhere in these actions?

Howard Schweber:
No, there’s no doubt about that at all. It’s worth remembering that in his first term, Trump also had a judge in Massachusetts arrested. It’s worth also pointing out that this — the decision by the state Supreme Court to suspend Judge Dugan was 7 to 0, was unanimous. It’s temporary, and it’s a suspension with pay. So we shouldn’t overstate where we are at in the specifics of the case, but the political environment is exactly what you just raised. The Trump administration has been going after and trying to intimidate federal judges from the beginning with threats of impeachment and threats to shut down courthouses. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this week, the Trump administration announced an executive order targeting state and local officials who interfere with deportation efforts and the manner of the arrest was really egregious. Handcuffs and photographs and publicity. You know, the perp walk element of the whole thing. That was very clearly an esthetic intended to send a message that’s of a threat to judges everywhere, state and local judges everywhere, you know, don’t get in our way. It won’t end well for you.

Zac Schultz:
Some law enforcement officials, like here in Dane County, specifically avoid asking questions around immigration status because they’ve said they don’t want potential witnesses or victims to feel intimidated or have concerns about showing up at courtrooms. What will this mean in terms of justice in a lot of other cases that have nothing to do with this particular issue?

Howard Schweber:
Well, that’s the policy side of this, and it’s absolutely, you know, again, you’ve raised exactly the right concern. It doesn’t work to simply exclude a category of people and say, if you participate in our court system in any way, you know, you may be subject to arrest. That’s going to make them go underground, and that’s going to make it harder for the police and for prosecutors in criminal cases and in civil cases, though, you know, cases of, for example, example, domestic abuse, which is one of the allegations that’s involved in this case. It just gets very much harder for the rule of law to be maintained, for people to be protected. So on policy grounds, you know, there’s a really good reason why in the past, law enforcement has been very hesitant to operate inside of courthouses and especially courtrooms. Again, I have to come back to two key points here. One, if every single one of the facts alleged is exactly as the federal government says it is, this is a strong case and this judge acted at least recklessly. And two, the unanimous opinion by the state Supreme Court, I think, shows that that court is very, very concerned not to see this become a disruption to the court system as a whole, not to see these kind of conflicts spreading across the state, but the background politics of intimidation of state and local officials and of judges in particular, I think, is in everyone’s mind and rightly so.

Zac Schultz:
Now, we spoke with one of the nine chief judges in Wisconsin, and they said they’re waiting for the director of state courts or the chief of chiefs to speak out. But we’ve heard nothing so far other than this one statement by the Wisconsin Supreme Court and is the silence pretty loud in that situation, or do they have an obligation to speak out publicly or give guidance to judges in this situation?

Howard Schweber:
Well, I don’t know about an obligation. So the big question is this gets rather technical. The case involved an administrative warrant. Administrative warrants, unlike warrants signed by judges, do not permit law enforcement to enter into private spaces without permission. There’s a kind of background understanding that courtrooms are treated as private spaces, but that the public areas of courthouses are not. And that’s an established understanding. That’s not brand new. I think it would be useful for the chief judge to come up with a clear set of guidelines for judges around the state, but certainly part of the problem is — has to be a concern of pushback from the federal government and from federal authorities if the feds don’t like the rules that Wisconsin comes up with. So there may be negotiations going on behind the scenes to try and get that worked out. I do — we had — we’ve seen one Wisconsin judge already threatened to effectively shut down her courtroom in the absence of guidance. You know, that’s another thing that could spread and that would be a problem. So I expect that a statement will be forthcoming, and I expect that it will have some detailed rules and policies. I think the one thing that’s very clear, the state Supreme Court has made very clear is once those policies are in place, they will be enforced.

Zac Schultz:
All right, Professor Schweber, thanks for your time today.

Howard Schweber:
Thank you.

Zac Schultz:
City leaders in Milwaukee have new ammunition in their efforts to lower gun violence. A Milwaukee mom who is a gun owner is one of many people taking advantage of the free resources from the city and a gun store. “Here & Now” reporter Murv Seymour shows us how education is being used as a weapon to lower violence from guns. A word of warning, this story contains sounds of loud gunfire.

Alexander Ayala:
Today, one of our officers was shot in the line of duty.

Murv Seymour:
On the front line to protect people from gun violence and from the scene of a recent shooting…

Jeffrey Norman:
The suspect, an unidentified male, sustained fatal gunshots.

Murv Seymour:
…Milwaukee’s top cop and mayor have a message for the city about its problems with gun violence.

Jeffrey Norman:
Using a firearm to bring violence into our community — absolutely unacceptable.

Murv Seymour:
According to ShotSpotter, the detection system Milwaukee Police uses to track when gunshots are fired in the city, over 11,000 rang out in Milwaukee neighborhoods in 2024. The amount of violent and deadly shootings is slightly down, but the numbers are too high, says Chief Norman.

Antonia Perry:
I come from a very close knitted family.

Murv Seymour:
Meet Antonia Perry.

Antonia Perry:
My faith is very high in the Lord, like I hear him talk to me.

Murv Seymour:
A single mom raising two boys, Antonia is all about family. She lives in what she describes as a pretty nice community, but…

Antonia Perry:
It’s very triggering.

Murv Seymour:
…a closer look reveals subtle signs that living here can be tough.

Antonia Perry:
We hear gunshots every night.

Murv Seymour:
Some nights, ShotSpotter lights up as gunshots echo through the neighborhood.

Antonia Perry:
Oh, they’re over there on 39th. Op, that sound like Sherman. They might be in the alley across the street. Like, we can hear, like, where it’s coming from. It puts me in a dark place to hear all that shooting.

Murv Seymour:
A dark place because Antonia knows about gun violence. She and one of her sons are survivors of reckless gun violence.

Antonia Perry:
Just from hearing the shots, I’ve thought I’ve been shot again.

Murv Seymour:
A long-time gun owner with a concealed carry license, Antonia keeps her weapons safely stored and locked away from her kids.

Antonia Perry:
He broke into my house and took the gun.

Murv Seymour:
So she thought.

Antonia Perry:
That’s when he went in the alley, shooting it with his cousin.

Murv Seymour:
Two weeks before this interview, her then 14-year-old son leaves a shelter meant to give parents and kids a break from each other during difficult times. He comes to this alley behind their home and fires the gun. It’s the second time in two years that he’s taken her weapon.

Antonia Perry:
They emptied the gun. It had about 11 shots. Nobody was hurt. Thank God.

Murv Seymour:
The two boys videotaped the entire thing.

Antonia Perry:
On a video, you see both of them shooting a gun. My worst fear was actually burying him. Having to bury him because he could have killed himself. He could have hurt somebody else.

Murv Seymour:
Antonia’s fears didn’t end there.

Antonia Perry:
I couldn’t find my firearm. I checked him. It wasn’t on his body, but he wouldn’t tell me where it was. But then he still proceeded to go to the school. I couldn’t have him go to the school until I knew I had my firearm. They checked the premises and they didn’t find it.

Murv Seymour:
Grieving, desperate and torn, in the spirit of tough love, Antonia makes a gut-wrenching decision.

Antonia Perry:
Took him to the police station and I showed them the video and they arrested him. I feel horrible. Like, I’m the mom. This is my baby. This is my son, and I’m turning him into the police.

Murv Seymour:
Emotionally broken, she turns to her faith.

Antonia Perry:
I let one of the pastors at the church know my story, and he got me connected with a guy named Quinn.

Murv Seymour:
Quinn Taylor works for the City of Milwaukee’s Office of Community Safety and Wellness. He’s also a member of Evolve Church.

Quinn Taylor:
So Narcan is for individuals that might be suffering from overdose.

Murv Seymour:
From what’s called the community resource table, Quinn explains how resources on this table help connect the community with city resources. The city offers gun safety help for families who live in Milwaukee neighborhoods, coping with the most gun violence and the fewest prevention resources.

Theron Rogers
Prolific Arms, Theron speaking. Yes, absolutely. We should be able to do that for you.

Murv Seymour:
In one of its new programs, the city partners with Prolific Arms.

Eddie Silas:
We have a bunch of different weapons.

Murv Seymour:
A gun store in nearby West Allis that does a lot more than sell guns.

Eddie Silas:
We’re educators that just happen to sell guns.

Murv Seymour:
Owners Theron Rogers and Eddie Silas are unique gun store owners.

Eddie Silas:
Out of 6,000 gun stores in the United States, there’s only 15 being Black owned.

Murv Seymour:
And in Wisconsin.

Eddie Silas:
As we know of, it’s only two. The mission is to educate as many people as possible. The city of Milwaukee said, “Hey, we want to do something about gun violence.” The solution is education and also resources. People think these bullets just go out of space. No, they do not, right? They go up and come down with enough force to kill somebody.

Murv Seymour:
According to the Milwaukee Police Department, almost 60% of guns stolen throughout the city are taken from one place — your vehicle. Criminals are constantly weaving through crowded public parking lots at bars, restaurants, sporting events, hospitals, city buildings, pretty much anywhere you have your vehicle and your weapon unattended. City officials are fighting back and they say you can too, with education and one simple tool.

Eddie Silas:
These right here are lock boxes sponsored by the City of Milwaukee Office of Wellness and Safety.

Murv Seymour:
In its partnership, the city provides free gun storage lock cases and Prolific Arms gives them out and installs them for anyone who takes their concealed carry firearm safety class at Evolve Church.

Eddie Silas:
We’ve been able to train 150 members of the community in firearm education since the start of the year.

Theron Rogers:
And it sounds like you did have a safe and have it locked away.

Murv Seymour:
We sat in as the team at Prolific Arms set aim towards helping Antonia Perry.

Theron Rogers:
What do you think you could have done better?

Murv Seymour:
It’s a free, one hour firearms safety assessment available to any gun owner who wants it.

Theron Rogers:
This here is SnapSafe lock box. You get two keys. We’re going to be able to give out 750 of these. So you’re going to be one of the recipients of that.

Murv Seymour:
The house call goes over things like how many weapons are in the home? How and where is it stored? How many kids live in the house and what’s the plan if you have to reach for your weapon?

Theron Rogers:
You know, someone’s in my house. What do you do? Do you have a designated meeting place in case of an emergency?

Quinn Taylor:
If you are possessing a firearm in your house, it shouldn’t be a secret to those who’s living there.

Theron Rogers:
But it’s vitally important that not only us, our youth get access to the education piece.

Antonia Perry:
I also learned to educate the kids and not hide it from them. Let them know that it is there and how dangerous it is. If something was to happen if they playing around with a gun.

Eddie Silas:
We care about this because this is our community. We grew up here. Our family’s here. The people that we love, our friends. We’ve taken a lot of losses.

Murv Seymour:
Back at Evolve Church, steps from its community table, inside their teen room…

Eddie Silas:
If you’re relying on a safety for your safety, that’s a bad decision. You need to be your safety.

Murv Seymour:
…Antonia Perry, her two boys and almost 50 inner city gun owners gather for this Saturday firearm safety course.

Eddie Silas:
We teach everything from safe handling, proper storage.

Theron Rogers:
If this weapon unintentionally goes off, that round is going to go through the floor.

Murv Seymour:
For a small fee and four hours of time, some receive their concealed carry permit. Others, like Antonia, refresh themselves while educating their kids about gun safety.

Quinn Taylor:
You have mothers. You have fathers. You have even kids. You have everything that represents a community in this training.

Theron Rogers:
Practicing proper firearm storage.

Audience:
Practicing proper firearm storage.

Murv Seymour:
Participants also take part in what’s called the “Prolific Pledge.”

Eddie Silas:
The “Prolific Pledge” is us getting the community to commit to the goal of safe firearm ownership and education.

Murv Seymour:
Eleven miles from her house, Antonia continues her education.

Eddie Silas:
So go ahead and slowly squeeze the trigger.

Murv Seymour:
With firearm safety expert Eddie Silas at her side, she prepares to do something she’s never done as a 17-year-long gun owner. Fire her weapon.

Eddie Silas:
Your feet can either be a shoulder length apart, slight bend on your knees.

Antonia Perry:
I’ve never had that, that chance to do that because I’m always in the house being the mother. I’m working. I’m going to school. I’m cooking. I’m cleaning. I’m taking care of the kids.

Murv Seymour:
Before she pulls the trigger, Eddie provides a 20-minute hands on refresher on firing weapons.

Eddie Silas:
So now you’re going to grab the magazine, insert it. Finger off the trigger. You want to choke up a little bit more if you can. Everything looks good. I’m ready to get out on the range.

Murv Seymour:
Working out of stall four, the sound and power of gunfire almost instantly startles Antonia.

Antonia Perry:
Ooh! Sh*&!

Eddie Silas:
You see her shake? A lot of people in our community are walking around with PTSD and they don’t know it. She almost turned around and walked out of there.

Antonia Perry:
For me, it felt like it was going through my body, and I don’t know if it’s because I’ve already been shot before.

Murv Seymour:
At times, with shell casings flying everywhere, Eddie has to stop and calm Antonio’s nerves.

Eddie Silas:
All right, don’t — I see you shaking. Put it down. Take a deep breath.

Murv Seymour:
Eventually, Antonia does collect her poise.

Eddie Silas:
An intruder can be in your house right now. Your kids can be screaming.

Antonia Perry:
It took a minute to, like, get my stance and tune out the shooting, but once my coach gave me some pointers, I was able to, you know, feel more comfortable with shooting, shooting the gun.

Eddie Silas:
It’s brave. She’s absolutely brave.

Murv Seymour:
Within a few days of partnering with the city of Milwaukee, owners of a gun store and her church, Antonia Perry becomes a more educated gun owner and mom.

Eddie Silas:
We need more mothers just like her. She probably saved his life and she don’t even know it.

Antonia Perry:
I believe that all of this is for a reason, and we’re going be all right. We’re going be all right.

Murv Seymour:
Reporting from Milwaukee, I’m Murv Seymour for Here & Now.

Zac Schultz:
For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSWisconsin.org and then click on the news tab. That is our program for tonight. I’m Zac Schultz. Have a great weekend.

Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.