WPT Archives: 1990s

Altering the Equation

Altering the Equation
10/12/1995
– [gentle music]
>> Hello. I’m Eric Von. The world we live in changes more rapidly today than ever before, but are our schools teaching students to meet those changes, to be flexible and adaptive? The program you’re about to see considers how a math test given to Milwaukee public school students symbolizes new efforts at providing a useful relevant education. But this attempt raises questions of its own. As you will see in the upcoming documentary, and in a conversation we’ll have with students, educators, and business people following the program.
>> Narrator: Major funding for “Altering the Equation” is provided by the Helen Bader Foundation Incorporated of Milwaukee. [rock music]
>> 79% Of Milwaukee public school seniors fail math exam, 79%? I mean, if this isn’t the beginning of the collapse of your civilization, how bad does it have to get to have indicators?
>> It’s a cheap shot. Yeah, I do think it’s a cheap shot. Mr. Gingrich in fact has a PhD. He should know better.
>> I don’t mind criticism, but I prefer criticism coming from people that know what they’re talking about, that have somewhat of a background.
>> Narrator: What this tempest is all about is a math exam.
>> We want our kids to be in a rigorous curriculum.
>> I don’t think that this was fair.
>> Narrator: The exam signaled a significant shift in the way children are tested and the way they are are taught in Milwaukee Public Schools.
>> I still think that the students are much better than the test results showed.
>> The problem is not all students and not all teachers took this seriously.
>> Narrator: And the exam pointed to the promise and the pain a school system can encounter as it strives for higher standards, as it goes about altering the equation. The test is called a mathematics proficiency exam. Developed by Milwaukee Public Schools and given to juniors in the spring of 1995. Milwaukee students expecting to graduate in 1996 and subsequent years are now required to pass the math test as well as a writing proficiency exam.
>> Exams set a standard. They say this is what we expect kids to be able to learn. And both kids and adults then begin to change their behavior in order to strive for that standard.
>> Okay. Sin squared equals? One minus cosine squared, right?
>> Narrator: In setting this higher standard, the school system had issued itself a challenge.
>> To provide the best education possible for all of our children. Not the best in Milwaukee, not the best in Wisconsin, but the best in the world.
>> Narrator: To meet the challenge, the school system set about changing the way it teaches and the way it tests. The proficiency exams are designed to find out how well students can use what they know in everyday situations. But when just 21% of all juniors passed the first math test, when 79% failed the test, the results rippled all the way to Washington.
>> 79%?
>> Narrator: House speaker Newt Gingrich concluded the results represented an enormous catastrophe for freedom.
>> You have a society which is failing to identify what matters and failing to insist that the next gen generation learn it.
>> Well, quite frankly, that’s exactly what we’re doing here. We are. We have identified what in fact matters. They are high standards. We’re insisting that kids learn it. In fact, they cannot get a diploma unless they do.
>> Narrator: Milwaukee school administrators challenged Gingrich to take the test or come to Milwaukee and see the changes taking place. They figured his perspective was at the very least distorted. He declined both offers, but Gingrich had given new life to the issue. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel printed copies of the exam for all to see and take to decide for themselves about the test’s standards. The papers, editorials, and cartoons concluded the system had been damned for a praiseworthy effort. High school students, both inside and outside the system weighed in with commentaries of their own.
>> It is time for society to stop accepting mediocrity. This only will happen if we, the students, strive to do our best.
>> I wonder whether Gingrich has ever laid eyes on the test. The test was one of a kind with unique ways of asking unusual questions.
>> Narrator: Those questions, according to experts outside the system are the kind more school districts in Wisconsin and across the country should be asking.
>> The Milwaukee Public Schools are really becoming a leader in performance based assessment.
>> One of these steps is gonna be the beginning.
>> We’re gonna find that kids are gonna be much better at being able to solve open ended problems, to bring mathematics to bear on those problems, to support their answers, to discuss their answers.
>> Narrator: Still, there are concerns to address.
>> We’ve had practice exams earlier, but this one was high stakes. It counted, and it’s still counting.
>> We can work out a problem, but we can’t apply it. And I think that’s our problem.
>> Teacher: Secant squared of X minus four.
>> And now we have the pressure which we know we have good grades and we’re bright people, but we just gotta pass the test in order to graduate.
>> I don’t have a problem with the test itself. I have a problem with the preparation of the test and, you know, them giving it to children who’s not prepared for it.
>> Narrator: Preparation in this case is a balancing act, keeping the change in testing and the change in teaching in sync. It’s hardly ever an easy balance. [dramatic music]
>> If the speed limit is 40 miles per hour, A, how long will it take her to get home from school? B, if the speed limit is raised to 50 miles per hour, how much time will she be able to save on the trip?
>> When traditional examinations, and I’m sure you’ve taken plenty of them yourself, the answers are very closed and they’re usually multiple choice. If you are good at thinking, you can probably narrow it down by throwing out some choices that are not appropriate.
>> Narrator: That’s the old math testing equation. Milwaukee’s previous math competency test was very much from that model.
>> Now this math proficiency exam replaces an exam that was multiple choice and very, very low level. Some people say it was an eighth grade level. And in fact, it was given first in eighth grade and some kids passed at that point.
>> And this test wasn’t like that. There weren’t very many questions. The kids had time to think about what they were supposed to know and be able to do. The answers weren’t closed. They didn’t have to just bubble in a little box with two or three choices, so that there was really room for them to show what they knew and be able to explain the way that they were thinking about something.
>> The mathematics proficiency exam really challenges kids to think and to reason and to apply the mathematics they’ve been learning to realistic situations.
>> Narrator: That concept of a student showing how he or she can apply what’s been learned is at the heart of mathematics education reform.
>> Tanisha and Rosario are at an amusement park. They cannot agree on which roller coaster ride is steeper.
>> The big difference is associated with shifting the emphasis from mastering a large number of specific concepts or procedures to learning how to use those procedures to solve problems.
>> Narrator: When math educators talk about problem solving today, it’s unlikely they’re referring to just plugging numbers into a formula. They use that term along with the phrases deep thinking or critical thinking skills to mean applying an array of math skills to real problems.
>> Student: Riding the Doomsday Drop, you’ll plunge 150 feet vertically in a distance of only 30 feet horizontally. On the Cosmic Comet, we’ll fall 35 meters vertically while moving six meters horizontally.
>> Well, when we look at any one question, what we’re looking at is an item which will engage the student’s interest.
>> Knowing what you know about slope, help Tanisha and Rosario determine which ride is steeper. Make sure you tell which right you think is steeper and why.
>> We want something that will enable the kid to bring some mathematics to it, to solve a problem, support that response and so forth. We want something more than just the answer is 12.
>> Narrator: Because the new test assesses answers and the route used to reach them, points are given for that answer, for showing the work, and for supporting the answer. [dramatic music] Milwaukee educators are devising these exams to cover many math areas.
>> Statistics, measurement, algebra, geometry, so that when we look at the exam in total, we see that the parts of mathematics are being addressed.
>> Student: You’re planning to redecorate the bedroom shown below. You will be putting in new carpeting and painting all wall and ceiling surfaces. For the carpeting alone, you must stay within a total budget of $1,000.
>> We ought to find the mathematics, and then we ought to find the ways that mathematics is done, the problem solving, the communication connections.
>> Student: You have two tasks to complete at this time. One, select a brand and quality of carpeting that will cover the floor and stay within your budget. Two, plan the installation of the carpet so you can be sure your estimates were accurate.
>> You really wanna know what’s going on in a kid’s head, not were they lucky enough to make a right guess.
>> Narrator: For teachers like these, that level of instruction which looks into a student’s thinking demands creativity. Teachers have to find new ways to pique student interest about math and other subjects. Stop in the name of school Before you break the rules Stop in the name of school
>> We’re just out of date. There have been a lot of things that have happened, like changes in technology, the computer and the calculator have changed the world of work in ways that aren’t reflected in what we expect students to do.
>> Until you let kids and teachers know that you really value this kind of thing, this kind of learning, and this kind of teaching that must go into preparing them for that, it’s gonna be very difficult to get teachers to change. When on the streets or in the home When you’re eating in class when the teacher comes You gotta respect them to respect yourself
>> Narrator: Milwaukee’s math proficiency exam was the school system’s way of sending that value message. The exam is the real catalyst for altering the equation. It’s a composite of the new teaching goals.
>> I think it’s really a lofty goal that we have the kids learning how to do more writing within mathematics, learning to think mathematically, conceptually, being able to justify answers, look at open-ended questions.
>> Student: You have researched carpeting and narrowed your choices to the following. Miller’s best, $32 per square yard, installed with premium pad, Norb’s premium, $28 per square yard.
>> But were we ready for a test like this? No. And in my opinion, was this a good test? No. And there’s no individual I don’t think to blame. This is not something where I’m gonna say, oh, teachers are to blame. They’re not doing their job or the kids are to blame. It’s just a matter that we really haven’t taught kids to think in that way on a consistent basis.
>> What’s X, find the value of X, that’s what we prepare for. They don’t teach us word problems. And then now they’re starting to like throw the word problems at us.
>> Sin squared minus three.
>> The question comes, which comes first, the change in teaching, the change in kinds of problems we solve, or should the assessment come first? The problem is not all students and not all teachers took this seriously, but there’s no doubt about it that when you change assessment, flags are raised and people start to react. Students comment that it’s fair or not fair. They didn’t have enough time to practice. Teacher say we should have three or four years to get them ready.
>> An awful lot of good teachers have done things very well for very many years that in our world today probably is less appropriate than it used to be. And for them to change is a difficult, painful process.
>> Narrator: There’s lots of pain and lots of praise interwoven in this effort. While some applaud the system for its hefty goals, others question why these seniors carry the heaviest burden. [dramatic music]
>> I don’t think that this was fair. I mean, I passed, it was easy, but I think if they really want to know how much math you know, they should look at your algebra and geometry advanced math grades.
>> Narrator: Why not? Since the that’s the way it’s always been? What math specialists say the way it’s always been doesn’t work anymore because the world works differently now. Consider this. Computer technology takes giant leaps forward every year, or even sooner. On the other hand, textbook changes come every five to 10 years or even later. The world around students quickly outpaces the world of their textbooks. That’s why there’s a movement in math circles to teach and test for those problem solving or critical thinking skills.
>> Well it’s actually an international movement because it’s happening in many countries as well as the United States. And in many ways is what’s happening in the United States is behind what’s happening in many other countries.
>> I really believe that Milwaukee is a leader in this area. I think there are places all over the country that are saying that this is the kind of thing that we ought to do.
>> Remember, you need to carpet the entire room, including the closet. A, how many square yards of carpet will you need? Show your computations.
>> I thought it was a really good attempt at trying to get across some of the things that we think are important in mathematics, and hopefully that the kids would be able to do them and demonstrate that they knew something about mathematics before they left high school. So I thought that MPS did a good job.
>> As you probably know, something similar was in the works for the state statewide. And that was abandoned.
>> Narrator: That previous attempt to create new statewide testing died after lawmakers in Madison cut funding. The man who ran the project still sees a statewide need, especially with the $4 billion Wisconsin spends each year on education.
>> I think it’s a travesty for a state to spend that amount of money and not know what it’s getting for it. And what it should be looking at is not the small pieces, but whether or not students can reason, whether or not students can solve problems and whether or not students can communicate.
>> Narrator: With that in mind, and with many districts now studying this type of testing, some will be looking to learn from Milwaukee’s experience.
>> Well they better. Yeah, it would be very useful to say, okay, well we can add too. We can examine what Milwaukee’s doing and maybe improve on it or utilize some of the ideas.
>> Narrator: As many outside the school system applaud its efforts, some inside see room for improvement.
>> Most of the math teachers are dissatisfied with the test, but they’re happy that we’re moving in that direction.
>> Many of these kids passed the old competency test, which was a bad test, but they had passed it. And midstream we’ve changed the rules on them. Not only have we changed the rules, but we’ve changed the rules with the test that we really have not perfected yet, or even come near to perfecting.
>> What do you figure the carpet and pad will cost you in all?
>> Narrator: Others argue the test’s wording is too ambiguous, that it leaves students uncertain about how to answer.
>> And for the test, nobody knew what they wanted to put on the test. Therefore, when people got the test, I think they misinterpreted it. And they got very confused, because they didn’t know exactly what they wanted. What do you want put down for this answer?
>> Some of those complaints are very justified and we are in a process of improving the way that we produce the exams and take care of the real concerns. But now I don’t don’t think our goal is to remove the ambiguity. I think that life is ambiguous.
>> Student: Milwaukee Mall has 500,000 square feet of shopping space. Developers have plans to increase mall space every four years to create jobs and economic growth.
>> Narrator: But the most prominent complaint involves giving this test to this group of seniors and telling them they have to pass it to graduate. It makes for very high stakes.
>> One issue that kind of underlies this from I think the parents and the child’s perspective is, yeah, but then why make it so high stakes? I mean, they’re depending on passing this test to graduate.
>> Like I said, I don’t have a problem with testing for proficiency, competency, whatever you want to call it, that’s a good thing. But yeah, when you tell one group of students, this is what you need to graduate, and then later on down the line tell them, oh no, that’s not what you need, now you need this, I don’t think that’s quite fair to them.
>> Student: 1998, addition of one 250 foot by 200 foot store. 2002, mall space completely doubled from 1998. 2006, six new stores.
>> Narrator: Some students say even as they took the test, they couldn’t escape the connection between the exam and their diplomas.
>> And now we’re like pressured. We have a writing proficiency and a math proficiency all in the same year and ACTs, it’s too hard.
>> On the other hand, do you get the change if the stakes aren’t reasonably high?
>> Narrator: District administrators say the stakes have to be high. They also acknowledge the need to put supports in place outside the classroom for this year’s seniors and future graduates as MPS pursues its math goals. That help includes tutoring, homework hotlines, and special projects like Saturday Academy. [student chatter] Where students use simple tools to simulate complex problems. And something else is happening. Students are finding new ways to deal with the pressure, including turning to each other.
>> And there’s specific students that know their math and they’ll help the students that need help in math. [upbeat music]
>> Narrator: Here at Hamilton High School, the entire senior class was called to assembly one morning by their principal. He then excused all adults, which left the students wondering what was going on.
>> So I could hear a pin drop and I spoke to them about some anxieties that they might have about being under pressure, how people are successful if you can handle and deal with the pressure and you are not in this alone.
>> Narrator: But perhaps most important, many students are taking a fresh look at how they approach the test, trying to alter their personal equations.
>> Well, I’m looking forward to past that test, but they might ask me about something that I’m not familiar too. You gotta get familiarized with the test.
>> You get to deal with real life in this test. It’s not like a math only math. You have to read, you have to read it twice or you can understand it.
>> A lot of students, when we were preparing for the test, they took it as a joke and a lot of those students were the people who failed.
>> Narrator: That’s not to discount the role of teachers and administrators in preparing students.
>> But then the kids have an individual responsibility to use that help and to understand that they’ve gotta work hard to get there. So everybody has a role to play in this. [dramatic music]
>> 79% of Milwaukee public school seniors fail math exam, 79%?
>> That statistic will never be repeated, I am sure.
>> Narrator: But in the immediate future, no one expects a 100% pass rate. So the school system has an alternative for students who don’t pass if it comes to that. Administrators say the bottom line is raising standards.
>> We want our kids to be in a rigorous curriculum and we want our kids to achieve. I have seen some data that suggests that we are on the right track and I’m happy that the standards are gonna be in place. I’m happy that the test is gonna be in place, both the math and the language simply because it’s gonna help our district to establish more credibility and we’re gonna have better students.
>> Your residential is high and that’s good. That means that a lot of people can live there.
>> The long term benefit to the kid I think is that the diploma’s gonna have more value. The employers are gonna recognize kids coming out of the Milwaukee Public Schools can do this stuff.
>> If you think about what’s happened to the world and where we are today in terms of technology, in terms of the kinds of things that you do in your job, in the terms of the way, when you just go out and
interact with other professions, what they’re using, it’s not appropriate at all for us to stay doing the same old mathematics.
>> It’s a 21st century standard. It’s not a standard for the 20th century. It’s a standard for the 21st century.
>> Narrator: Milwaukee employers say it has to be a 21st century exam. They have almost as much of a long term stake in this as the students.
>> No question about it, all of the people that I talk with today are looking for people. They can’t find quality applicants, and they really see that as continuing throughout the 90s.
>> Narrator: So some, like Froedtert Memorial Lutheran Hospital, are signing on to help the school system by pairing their employees with students.
>> And we’ve tried to provide students with a real life experience.
>> Narrator: Milwaukee’s math proficiency exam is an attempt to simulate real life. Identifying what matters, insisting that the next generation learn it. No one disputes the need.
>> I think that when Newt saw the statistic, just like most people would of 79% of MPS juniors failed a test, I think it’s a little bit overwhelming. I think you see that kind of a statistic and you’re like, something’s wrong.
>> I don’t think the results of this test reflect the intelligence of the students in Milwaukee Public Schools.
>> We’re way ahead. And in fact, in the educational community, people know this, Milwaukee is seen in very, very high esteem among educators around the country. We still have to convince our local press and our local community about what we’re doing. And I’m hoping that this math proficiency exam will help them to see that we’ve set a standard and we’re gonna move the kids toward it.
>> Narrator: Now that the school system is moving toward altering the equation, a step being studied or taken across Wisconsin and the nation, many argue it would be a major mistake to turn back.
>> I think it would do irreparable damage to the students, to the business, to the community. And at large, we will end up paying for that at some point in the future.
>> If we do not move to higher standards that emphasizes deep thinking critical skills, if we bring young people out who are incapable of doing that, they have no chance. They have absolutely no chance in the society that we’re in.
>> Narrator: But those chances look a lot better if Milwaukee’s school system can add more value to its diplomas through efforts like the math proficiency exam. Then Milwaukee’s graduates can supply the critical thinking this society demands. [upbeat music]
>> Hello again. We’re joined in studio by five of the people who have a real stake in what’s happening in Milwaukee Public Schools. Augusta Crumble is a senior at Milwaukee South Division High School. So is Juan Carlos Viruet. We heard from both during the documentary, Greg Coffman is chief executive officer of Downey Incorporated of Milwaukee. And David DeBruin, a former member of the Milwaukee school board of directors is a Milwaukee attorney. Bill Tate is a professor of mathematics at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. He specializes in assessing math in a social context. Thank you all for joining us tonight. Augusta, as you took the test, were there certain things that you noticed about the administration of the test that you did or did not like?
>> Well I think the question the most stand out was the carpet question. And I think that they were kind of vague and that maybe they should have been more specific with what they wanted, what they wanted us to answer, what the question was instead of just…
>> It wasn’t quite clear to you what they were searching for? Juan Carlos, in terms of the test itself, did it apply to the other things that you were accustomed to seeing in school? How relevant was the test?
>> It wasn’t that I think I’m gonna get around what the answer is gonna be, you know, human beings, we like to socialize things with another, and this was something new to us. It was just like open this pamphlet or open this folder and you find the answer for your future. And it was something really different. I was expecting something more what I studied, algebra, geometry. It was more of after school problems, like real life things.
>> Mr. Tate, would you say that for the most part, the kind of reaction that you got from Juan Carlos or you’re hearing from Juan Carlos now is pretty common, would you expect this after having a test of this nature?
>> If I didn’t hear it, I would be surprised given what he’s described, Juan Carlos talks about his traditional algebra, traditional geometry. Any college prep traditional course in the United States, nine times out of 10, those courses are not designed for open ended problem solving. That’s what Augusta was making reference to there. They have specific answers based upon discreet skills that they’re usually testing on. In this test, for my examination of it, is requiring reading and then focusing in on a specific question or maybe multiple questions that might be asked and asking the students to come up with a framework for solving it, which is radically different than what we usually do in mathematics education. Juan Carlos said it is something you see in after school mathematics. Well, that’s what the old math clubs used to do. And those are the students who traditionally become very good at mathematics. So it’s a positive in that sense that they’re getting a chance to experience that it’s unfortunately the stakes sometimes are kind of high for these students.
>> Greg, in a real world sense. How much of what is done during this test helps out in the corporate area?
>> Well I think that’s probably one of the most important things and Bill brought it up and so did Juan Carlos, after school is more like work and more like the types of problems they will see as employees when they come into a work environment, more open ended, you have to have some reading comprehension and be able to organize your thoughts to come up with the answer. So from the business perspective, we’re very excited about Juan and Augusta trying to do these things and learning how to do them and being aware of them after school is sort of on the way to work, I guess.
>> What kind of discussions, debates, controversies were raised as a result of this math proficiency idea coming to the school board?
>> Well frankly there wasn’t a huge discussion of it when the school board adopted it, it was presented by our superintendent as consistent with the course the schools had already set because there had been a proficiency test already underway in the reading and writing area. So this was the next step in that process. And we all felt though that it was really a way of more accurately measuring how students would perform in the real world. And really there was very little controversy at the time we adopted this, the controversy came after we implemented it and the results were shown.
>> Let me ask you, Bill Tate. And we’ve talked about the after school nature of this and math in a social context, many people will hear that and say, well, what does that mean? And how does this math proficiency test get to that?
>> Math in a social context, I often ask the question to my students who want to teach mathematics, when do you count just for the heck of it? And usually people will say, in school, the rest of the time, you count for a purpose. People don’t count in business without a purpose. People don’t count in the law without a purpose. Everyone counts for a purpose and decisions are to be made as a result of that. Math in the way we use it in society is embedded in decision making. It’s embedded in resource allocation. It’s embedded in just utility for the satisfaction of whether it’s a business or your personal finances or whatever you’re using it for. The tendency has been to do what you described in your algebra and geometry classes is to separate the social context from the mathematics. So what these students are learning in a proficient act, many of them probably is computing, but they have no idea what that computation means in the context of anything that’s even associated with reality. I mean, if you look at the test, it’s not really a real social context based test. It’s realistic. I mean, because in real problems, they’re ill defined. These are more defined than you would typically find in any kind of decision making in society. But the problem is if they don’t experience similar tasks extensively from kindergarten, I mean, this is something that has to start in kindergarten through 12th grade, there’s no way I would expect any student, no matter how much mathematics they’ve taken through calculus. They can do well on this. You can give this test to engineers as we talked earlier, and some of them may have a problem with these types of context. So it’s something that has to be experienced throughout your K12 school.
>> Augusta, as you talk with your classmates, were they preparing themselves for this test? Did they take it seriously?
>> Well, we started the test. Well, we started preparing for it I think maybe three days before the test was administered. And I don’t think anybody really took it seriously because even though they knew it was a requirement to graduate, they thought it’d be easy. And I think when they saw the test, they were kind of stumped, like, what is this?
>> So how did they get the message across to you that it was required? I mean, what did they say to you? How was it presented?
>> They just told us one day, this test you’re gonna be taking is a requirement when you graduate.
>> But you knew of the test in prior grades, is that correct?
>> No.
>> What about the pressure you felt after hearing that? Was there a particular amount of pressure you felt to pass this test although you had difficulty understanding at first why you were even being required to take it?
>> It was a lot of pressure, not to me, but to a lot of students. Some students were absent because they thought they could take it some other day, but I guess they didn’t get around that or something, but they actually didn’t go to school just to say, oh, that way I have no excuse, I just don’t go to the test. And I feel really pressured because they say, if you don’t pass it, you’re not gonna graduate in June and you’re gonna cry. Well, what was the answer? I say, I have to pass it, even though if I don’t do it this year, my senior year, I probably could, and I’m looking forward, I’m not saying it’s a bad test. I’m saying that they wouldn’t give us more time to realize what kind of promised we were gonna answer.
>> So in short, was the test fair in your mind?
>> I don’t think it was, if it would’ve been fair, a lot of students would’ve passed it, but I guess the statistics show that they didn’t pass it.
>> Now I don’t mean the actual questions, whether the questions were easy or not so easy, but I’m saying in terms of, again, the presentation, and the pressures that you felt as a result of it, do you feel that it was presented to you in a fair way?
>> It’s like giving you, like you’re involved in a job, you enroll in a job and they hire you and they say, well, you gonna be answering phone calls. And then a month after they tell you, now you’re gonna supervise all the employees.
>> Was it fair in your mind, Augusta, at all?
>> I can’t say it wasn’t fair. I just feel like that maybe should have let us know ahead of time, at least maybe two months in advance. And then our classes started to prepare us for it. At least give us questions that were more difficult than the ones we were already having, something different.
>> Dave DeBruin, as a former member of the school board, again, kind of going back to the other question, when this test and other proficiency tests were put in motion, did you think that it was gonna have this kind of impact on the Milwaukee Public School system and the students that you served?
>> Well, it’s had a lot of impacts and some of them were anticipated, some were not. I think the board I know certainly envisioned a smoother transition, because I think the comments that we’re hearing from the students in terms of being prepared for it are fair ones. And as Bill has mentioned, this is something where to really be prepared, you should be exposed to these kind of problems from the early grades on. We had in fact directed that at the eighth grade level, that the students start to be exposed to this kind of stuff. Obviously, that didn’t happen. And so what did happen, because there were a few years of transition here before from the time that the board adopted this policy until it was actually implemented, and these students were the first to actually take the test in their junior year. So there were some problems I think in terms of implementation. But the other thing in terms of the impact that I think we really gotta keep our focus on here is that how you assess the students drives, to a large degree, how the teachers decide they have to prepare the students in their classes. And so now, after the dust settles, after all the uproar over the results of this test, a lot of the teachers are going back and saying, I have to look again at what I’m doing in my class to make sure that these students are prepared to handle these kinds of questions. And that is a consequence that we did anticipate. And I think it’s a consequence that’s a darn good one.
>> What about the teachers in their preparation Bill? I mean, there is some consternation that exists with teachers in moving to this type of testing. How do you get the teachers ready?
>> Well you have some tensions here because the traditional textbook is not like these problem tasks. And we know from data that most people follow the textbook and that’s what drives their pedagogy. And so this movement Dave was talking about a shift to have the assessment drive the test is a radical one that requires what I would call teacher opportunity to learn because the majority of the teachers have not experienced these types of problems themselves. I mean, this is a real dilemma. So you you’ve got people potentially teaching these, if you do a K-12 program, which I would advocate, you have teachers in elementary school who may not be acquainted or have experienced such open ended problem solving context, most are used to closed, very discreet problems. And so this is a difficulty that if Milwaukee wants to do this, and I think they’re at the fore of doing it in the country, they’re gonna have to take a serious look at how they design their professional development.
>> If you get past the knocks by Newt Gingrich on the Milwaukee public school system and get to things like the things that you have been doing, I understand that you are in the communities and you’re talking to people and talking with teachers and students about moving these kinds of programs to a higher ground, to a more clear and safe ground for the students. What are you telling people? What is that message that you’re bringing into those communities?
>> Well, I think Milwaukee learned a lesson and it’s a painful process to raise standards, but it’s a process that has to take place because the typical decision is to take urban schools back to basics. And everyone will say, when they wanna reform an urban school, let’s go back to basics, that is an economic disaster for the students. I would rather to see this painful transition period. I think it could have been smoother as we’ve sort of alluded to, but I would rather see the kids starting in kindergarten, first, second, and third grade with these opening type of problem contexts. And don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. They still need to know how to compute basic skills. I mean, that’s a serious thing, but we’re talking about another level of standards that’s necessary for these students to be competitive in anything they want to do in life. I mean, you really can’t, and this is the argument I make with parents and teachers alike. You really can’t even participate in the democracy unless you understand mathematics in ways. I mean, when do kids learn how to do the census? The census could be on that test. Why is it no one knows how to do those kind of things?
>> Can I just follow up on that, I think the point about the pain of raising standards is a real important one here, because one of the other things that MPS did in order to try to raise standards was require that all ninth graders take algebra. And we’ve been, I think, quite successful in that, because when you look at the results, while there’s still an unacceptable failure level among students taking the ninth grade algebra, the failure level is in fact less than it was for all of the math courses that were in place before at the ninth grade level, which means that we’ve brought up what we’re expecting the students to do without increasing, and in fact, with a slight decrease in the failure rate. So the students do respond to expectations. And I think any parent knows that kids respond to expectations.
>> Is the business community raising its expectations as a result of these kinds of programs and testings going on?
>> Well, I don’t know that it’s in that order, Eric, I think it’s the other way. In order for these young students to develop the skills that will provide them the opportunities, they’re gonna have to come up to these standards and the business community is requiring it, I almost said demanding it, but we’re requiring it because these are the skills they’ll need to be entry level employees and to climb up as we go. And in listening to Bill’s comments, this whole program is very consistent with MPS’s overall scheme of K-12 teaching and learning goals. And it’s extraordinarily consistent with new programs that are being introduced under the school to work concepts, where students like these would be able to see how these math problems are going to be connected, not the specific problem of course, but how you’re gonna run into those same kinds of problems. And I think that’s important. I’d like to back up a little bit to make sure, I agree with the students to degree that it was somewhat of a surprise, although as Dave said, people did know this was coming when you were a freshman, but I understand you’re gonna get to take it at least once or twice more. Is that correct?
>> Augusta: Three times.
>> Three times more. And are you now involved in better preparation? I’m out recruiting business employees to come in and not work with you specifically on the math, but at least to talk with you about how important it is for us to keep the high standard, to raise the standard for them. And I’m just curious as to whether you’re experiencing that now, are you getting more prepared? You did take it originally.
>> Eric: Are you ready as a result of–
>> I’m trying to grow like a tree though, but yes, I like to grow in knowledge and I like progressing.
>> When are you gonna take it again?
>> Late November. I don’t really know exactly what the date is, but we have been having workshops for the math proficiency. We have tutors coming up on these coming Saturdays on 11th and the 18th at South Division.
>> If the school to work programs and things of that nature are to have any teeth, it’s gonna take employers like yourself stepping out and taking a chance on some of these young people. Are you ready? Are you prepared as an employer to take in some of these young people because they have done well on these kinds of proficiency tests throughout their high school experience?
>> I would say absolutely. And I’ve spent a lot of time in Milwaukee public school systems, and we have some high school students working for us now and recent graduate working for us also, these are the types of things that will demonstrate that these young people can handle the diverse problems that will come towards them. Now they won’t necessarily have to do it in the confines of all alone, sitting at a desk, you’ll be able to work with employees, but you’ll contribute. They’ll contribute to the problem solving. Resource management is probably the number one objective in almost all businesses, perhaps even in Dave’s And you have to be able to measure resources. You have to be able to bring resources to apply them. We don’t have infinite resources. We don’t have infinite financial resources to do these things. So we need employees to come up with problems. These types of standards will help the students understand that and then make them a contributing part of our team fairly quickly, even as high school graduates, we have good success with motivated students. They come to us with good skills. We were talking about it in the waiting room. The skills these young people are facing today are so far ahead of anything we did. Computer skills and communication skills and surfing the net and all the types of things we’ve been talking about, we didn’t have anything like that. So they need to develop that.
>> Bill Tate, Wisconsin and Milwaukee is kind of on the brink of a brave new world if you will. How do you assess this on a national basis in terms of bringing our children up to speed across the country, and then getting them to the level of other countries around the world?
>> One of the things that needs to take place in urban schools, and Augusta doesn’t know how she made my day when you said you were having class on Saturday. One of the problems that’s been typically assessments have been ignored in terms of you being used as a feedback system for different instructional mechanisms. In other words, people do poorly on task and it’s in a newspaper and that’s it. But here you have some response. See if this was a limited to just bashing the students, I would say that this testing system is problematic. And it’s just another sorting system that we’re using. And it’s not of any benefit to the students, but if they’re actually responding in ways to change their pedagogy because the assessments illustrate that there’s a need to, that is the first step to improving.
>> If I might stop you right there only to have you go back to a comment you did make earlier as we were discussing this, you said that it actually is phenomenal that you had what is considered to be a very low passing rate for the number of students who passed versus those who failed the test.
>> I think it’s phenomenal given the instructional program that was probably in place, just my knowing of it on a cursory level, if they had that many students pass, I think because typically at a national level, you would have about 15 or 20% of the people in the United States can only do moderately difficult mathematics problems. And these are people, typically the most well qualified high school students are doing well on those. And so when you get a massive urban school district who had 20%, Newt was wrong at the beginning of this telecast. The fact of the matter is this is phenomenally that many people are doing well. On the national level, the reason Milwaukee’s at the cutting edge is because they’ve implemented the test. It seems they have some fortitude in terms of keeping the test. Most places, if the test scores come out like that, they abandon the test and go back to basics.
>> Are we looking at a national trend? Is it gonna catch on?
>> I think that it will depend from city to city. Here in Milwaukee is an interesting place. They seem to have a decent business school connection. Businesses really want to have the skill level raised, in places that don’t have that, I think it would be more difficult. And as I said to you, the national tendency over time, since the turn of the century has been in public education, urban public education, the reform movement is always back to basics. It is rare when you talk about people raising the standards and then providing additional opportunities for students to learn and meet those standards. Typically people don’t want to pay the extra amount and that’s gonna be attention here as they move forward, how will they use their resources to keep these students getting additional opportunities?
>> Let me just ask you one final thing. There is a difference in the approach to teaching children in Milwaukee, in the urban environment versus other areas of Wisconsin. Now I asked about nationally, but I think you may run into some difficulty just moving this program out of Milwaukee into other areas around the state. How do you view that?
>> I think it’s a mistake and it’s a poor use of social science to ever try to generalize what happens in Milwaukee and then come to Madison and try because the places are different. One needs to evaluate your own system, get as much information as you can, and then use that information in a feedback type of way to change your own practice. Now people want to come in and take a look at it, so be it. Milwaukee students are different. It’s a diverse group of students. You’ve got all the different social classes there, different ethnicities. You have a huge acquiring English population, bilingual population. And so you have to be cognizant of that. These students have different interests. That’ll play out to be a big phenomenon at the time with this test because these students are so diverse and they’re gonna have to pay close attention to whether they come in with different interests and can those interests be actually scored in ways that reflect the student understanding. That’s always a tension with tests.
>> Augusta and Juan Carlos, not just because you have to take the test again, not just because it’s part of the curriculum, but because it might provide some better light to your futures, what are your feelings about the test now? If you had to start from scratch and do it all over again, if you could throw away the first time around and start again, how would you approach it?
>> Well, I’m looking forward to the test, this coming test in November. And I’ve been trying to prepare myself for it. I’ve been looking through some math preparatory booklets, and some of them, I think are basically what I learned already, but a lot of them are helping me do some work that I haven’t really done a lot in. And I think that when the test comes around, I should be able to handle it.
>> Eric: Juan Carlos?
>> Dave: Good for you.
>> I would say that I agree with him, it’ll be a higher education for me.
>> Dave: You made one friend here.
>> No, the thing is it’s me. It’s my life, you know, involving it. If I don’t get the education from them and we stay in that level, I mean, where am I gonna go after I get out of there? They’re getting paid, I wanna get paid too. You understand what I’m saying? So if I get a better education, I’ll do better, in other words.
>> Is that what you’re hearing from your other classmates? Does that seem to be the prevalent attitude?
>> I really don’t hear much from them. They don’t really, I guess they just don’t wanna talk about it.
>> What about you, as you talk to other business leaders?
>> Well I think that Juan Carlos’ comments about they’re really exciting for us because it’s been referred to the school to work endeavors and businesses trying to become closer to the schools, closer to the students in light of self interest, as you become, just as you said, Juan Carlos, and I wish you all the luck in the world, more educated and better, then our whole community becomes more educated and better. And the whole vitality of our community, we help solve a lot of problems. One of the most important things that happens when you’ve got major teaching institutions and research institutions and bright young students is jobs locate in your community. Milwaukee, Madison, Wisconsin does have lots of things to be very, very proud of and pleased in their universities and their school systems. So it’s exciting. And I talk to your students, if they’re not talking about it, talk to your friends and tell them that it’s your education and your right and I hope you believe it and I hope as you demonstrate it and accomplish this in November, or again in January, if that’s the next time you get to take it, business needs to hear you talk like that because it’s exciting and we’ll become more involved. If we hear students say we want to have these things happen, then business, we’re reluctant, we’re timid, we’re shy, we tend to wanna say it’s someone else’s problem. We tend to wanna say it’s the teacher of the teachers who’s the problem. Or it’s something, it’s the social structure, but we wanna be a part of it, more and more of us do.
>> Dave, you have an opportunity now to kind of sit back and say, did I do the right thing with this? How do you answer that?
>> I don’t have any question in my mind that I did. I go back to point that Bill made about the public reaction. And I think we do really have to keep in mind that it is a different world that these students are going into even than the ones that I went into. And they are gonna have a whole bunch of demands placed on them and expectations that we didn’t have to face, and they have to be prepared for that. And if, as a parent, I look at a test that the students have to take, and I find that I would have difficulty with it, it’s understandable why the parents would react and say this is not fair, but we can’t sit back anymore and say that what was good enough for our generation is good enough for this generation. It has to be better. Another thing I think it’s important though, is that there is a safety valve here. We’ve been talking about this test as the requirement for graduation, but we do have a safety valve in that if the students
take the test and for whatever reasons don’t succeed in passing it after the three tries, they can meet the graduation requirements by putting together a portfolio on the guidance of an in instructor that will demonstrate these same kind of skills.
>> So it’s not all over with us? I’d like to thank you all for joining us tonight, our guests, great job folks.
>> Thanks. It was fun.
>> Bill: It was a pleasure being here. [dramatic music]
>> Narrator: Major funding for “Altering the Equation” was provided by the Helen Bader Foundation Incorporated of Milwaukee.