Washington Week with The Atlantic

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: President Trump's anger and# impatience were on full display this week,## this time over Ukraine's unwillingness# to accept his proposal for ending the## war that Russia started.

Trump's# fixation with Kyiv has put him at## odds with European counterparts.

But# in his new national security strategy,## he makes it clear that America's traditional# European allies are actually foes, not friends.

Tonight, Donald Trump returns to his default## position supporting Russia# and Vladimir Putin, next.

Good evening and welcome to Washington Week.

President Trump has made it clear he wants to# negotiate peace between Russia and Ukraine and## maybe even get a prize for it, but his use of it# occasionally been hard to pin down.

Take a look.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S.

President: You are# gambling with the lives of millions## of people.

You are gambling with World War III.

And what you're doing is very# disrespectful to the country, this country.

It's an honor to be with a very strong# leader.

We've gotten along really very well.

We get a lot of bullshit thrown at# us by Putin, if you want to know the## truth.

He's very nice all the time,# but it turns out to be meaningless.

I'm so disappointed in President Putin.

We're really honored you guys came over.

I mean,## these are the heads of major countries# and respected all over Europe.

Europe is not doing a good job.

We're talking about Ukraine.

They# talk, but they don't produce.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes, I also get whiplash.

But# it seems as if Trump is back in Putin's corner,## and I'll explore this tonight with my guests,# Anne Applebaum is a staff writer at The Atlantic,## Susan Glasser is a staff writer at the New# Yorker, Amna Nawaz is a co-anchor and the## co-managing editor of the PBS NewsHour, and Vivian# Salama is a staff writer for The Atlantic.

Thank## you all for being here.

Amna, thank you# for a very special guest star appearance.

AMNA NAWAZ, Anchor, PBS NewsHour: My# goodness.

Thank you so much.

What an honor.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We appreciate# it.

We appreciate it.

Why don't I start with you to put you on the spot?

AMNA NAWAZ: Sure.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, explain .. AMNA NAWAZ: Yes, 30 seconds or less.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: 20 seconds, if you do.. AMNA NAWAZ: Perfect.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, we've been .. We just sort of, witnessed that a# bit.

Now, President Trump is back## to pressuring President Zelenskyy to accept# a deal that would basically carve off a piece## of Ukraine.

But what is the current# state of play?

Where are we going?

AMNA NAWAZ: I mean if you look at just# the last month, I think it's sort of## illustrative of how the last year has gone,# which is that whiplash you just showed.

Also,## let's underscore the fact that this is still# an active war, right?

We saw Zelenskyy out on## the frontlines today in Kharkiv, a place# where I was on the ground last spring,## in a place that Russians claim to have actually# gained control of last month, and he was shooting## selfie videos on the ground today, so very# much a lot of land still being contested there.

The U.S.

plan that was presented last month# was essentially echoing Russian talking points,## talking about Ukraine trading territory# to help them get to peace, talking about## them renouncing the right to join NATO.

When I# spoke to the Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S.,## Olha Stefanishyna, earlier this week, she talked# about the fact that language was not final,## but that they were happy that# this dialogue is now moving## around a structured plan of some kind.

So,# that's how Ukrainians are looking at this.

The new Ukrainian plan now reportedly removes# a lot of that language.

But remember here that,## peace plan that the president is pushing for,# President Trump is pushing for, is separate## from the document about security guarantees,# which is the critical issue for Ukraine,## that there will be some kind of guardrails or# protection against future Russian aggression.## The last year has shown us just how far back# and forth the Trump administration has gone.## They came in and took many months to even admit# Russia was the aggressor here in the first place.

And while there have been moments# where he sided with Zelenskyy,## shown some kind of sympathy for Russian# strikes on civilians, by and large,## this is an administration that's looking to# get Russia on board, not necessarily Ukraine.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

And talk about that a# bit.

The baseline sympathy is with Putin, and it's## his belief, it seems, that it's up to Ukraine# to settle a war that in fact Russia started.

ANNE APPLEBAUM, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Yes.# There are two or three very bizarre things about## the Trump administration negotiating# a position.

One of them is that one## of the things they're asking Ukraine to do is# something I don't think Zelenskyy can do.

So,## it's not just that they're saying let the Russians# keep what they conquered.

They want him to give up## territory that they control.

And I don't think# the Ukrainian army will do that.

And so -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The Ukrainian army itself?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: I don't think they will do it.# No.. very decentralized.

There are a lot of commanders# who have their own funding and they have their## own status and I don't think he can get them to# give away land that they've been defending for -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's actually# true.

When we were in the Ukraine last,## we met different operators of# different drone factories and## drone units, and they seem to be just# improvising without direct orders.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: It's not exactly like# that, but it's not -- but it's also not## the case that they're fighting, you# know, because they're professional## soldiers and they'll -- they can be# commanded in that same way.

And so -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I thought you were getting at# that, that the Ukrainian people wouldn't accept.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: Well, the Ukrainian people# also won't accept.

I mean, and Zelenskyy,## you know, isn't really -- he has been# weakened by the corruption scandal that## I know that you'll want to talk about, and# I just don't think he's politically in a## position where he can say, we're giving# up territory.

So, that just can't happen.

The other piece of it, as you said, the# really important piece, is the security## guarantees.

This isn't a minor thing.

You# know, if the Ukrainians stop fighting and## they don't have any kind of security guarantee# or any NATO or any western troops or anything,## then their country is unviable.

Because who# will want to live there or invest there if they## know that the war is going to start again, you# know, next year or next month or in six months?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: .. to restart the war again, there needs to# be some reason to think that it's really,## really over.

And, of course, the only way to# achieve that is to put pressure not on Ukraine,## but on Russia.

You know, the Russians have# to be convinced that the war has to end.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No Russia can# stop the war anytime it wants.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: Anytime it wants.

And the# bizarre thing about the whole last year,## you know, the back and forth and so# on, is that it's almost as if the## Trump administration doesn't want to admit or# can't understand that the war only ends when## the pressure is put on Russia and the Russians# say, okay, we're not going to be able to win.## And it's the most obvious solution to the# problem, and it's the one they just won't take.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Susan, I want to# talk about the corruption I issue in a moment,## but talk about security guarantees in the# framework of what we know about Donald## Trump and his commitment to democratic allies?

SUSAN GLASSER, Staff Writer, The New# Yorker: Well, that's exactly right.

I mean,## they've just re released a national security# strategy that makes it very.. see the United States as increasingly# as some separate entity from NATO,## even though the United States has been the# founder and pillar of NATO since its creation.## And you're seeing this separation from our# western allies and a president who, for his## entire time in public life, has essentially# been critical of our allies while praising## our adversaries.

That is a one through line in an# otherwise at times inconsistent foreign policy.

But the security guarantee thing is really# important here because that's why the prospects## for a deal are so remote.

Right now, essentially,# we're negotiating with ourselves.

You know,## we're negotiating with the Ukrainians, with# the Western Europeans who are desperate to## get themselves back at the table.

But even if we# were to come to consensus and all this pressure## on Zelenskyy is aimed at pressuring Zelenskyy# to make a deal essentially with Donald Trump,## but that deal has to involve a security guarantee# that will be a non-starter for Vladimir Putin.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

SUSAN GLASSER: A.. not as a form of backlash or whiplash# with Donald Trump, but more -- he's a## spurned suitor.

Vladimir Putin has not# been negotiating.

He's not been forced## really to negotiate.

But the second you come# to him, if you're Donald Trump and you say,## here's this meaningful security guarantee that# we have for Ukraine, Putin says, well, no deal.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right, right.

Vivian, I'm# going to come to you in a minute to describe the## essence of the entire national security strategy# of the United States.

But before we do that,## give me like a one minute warning.

Before we do# that, I just want to read something that Anne## wrote about this corruption issue.

In Ukraine,# the state itself is investigating the government,## the cabinet, even the president's# closest advisers.

By contrast,## it is impossible to imagine Kash Patel's FBI# investigating anyone in Trump's White House.

This may very well be true.

It is# also true that they have a serious## corruption scandal and that he's been# weakened, Zelenskyy has been weakened.## How -- both of you handle that question.# How bad is it for Zelenskyy right now?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: So, I think it's important# to understand, first of all, that this is the## Ukrainian state investigating itself.

So the, you# know, democratically-elected Ukrainian government## and people appointed by it and supported by# civil society, these are civil servants and## they are doing the investigation in accordance# with the rule of law.

And it's a reflection -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes.

But Zelenskyy has# been weakened by the existence of this -- ANNE APPLEBAUM: Sure.

He's weakened by it.

He's# lost some of his advisers and so on.

But it's## actually -- so inside Ukraine, it's perceived# as good, like it's a positive thing.

And when## you -- I spoke to one of the chief detective who# was leading that investigation a few days ago,## and he said to me, and I asked him, don't you --# aren't you worried this will weaken the state?## He said, no, it's the opposite.

Our state is# weakened by corruption.

Corruption equals Russia.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We can come back to# this because there's a certain interesting## analog here to what's going on here in our# investigative capabilities inside the government.

But, Vivian, I do want to come to the# national security strategy because this## is all being done within the framework# of a pretty radical new understanding of## America and its role in the world.

What# are the national security strategy say?

VIVIAN SALAMA, Staff Writer, The Atlantic:# What didn't it say?

I mean, first of all,## you know, a lot of -- every administration# puts out a national security strategy,## lays out its policy priorities for the four or# eight years that they're in office.

President## Trump, his strategy was released.

And, first# of all, just tonally, it's different.

You know,## you have a lot of the rhetorical flourishes that# you hear from President Trump and a lot of his## advisers just sort of this adversarial language# that we see so much out of the White House.

But then also you have completely upended# priorities, beginning with and not least of,## which is this concept of major power# competitions, which the previous two## administrations, and when I say the previous# two, I'm also talking about Trump 1.0,## this was a key element for them, the power# competition with China and with Russia.

This strategy does not even mention China until# two thirds of the way in.

He describes it as## working to rebalance the economic relationship# with China and not trying to push back on their## efforts for global dominance, let's say.

He# talks about managing Europe's relationship## with Russia rather than any kind of aggression# that Russia may be pursuing and/or any kind of## you know, tactics, it may do# to subvert America's allies.

And so this was like one of the most glaring# differences that we've seen, but also the language## that they use about Europe was so striking.

It# discusses an idea -- it discusses Europe in very## ideological terms.

I mean, we're talking about the# Ukraine conflict right now and how President Trump## views it.

That sort of manifested itself in the# rhetoric toward Europe where it talked about this## need to restore Europe's, quote, civilization,# self-confidence and western identity, talking## about the need to push back on immigration, the# need to push back on the economic cooperation## with western allies.

And it is very, very# striking to see the language it used in Europe.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Susan, what struck you the# most about the national security strategy?

SUSAN GLASSER: Yes, that's right.

I mean,# is Donald Trump repudiating Donald Trump's## first national security strategy, which# was all about the pivot to a great power## competition between Russia, China,# the United States?

Now, essentially,## Russia's treated as an equal of# our European allies and partners.

And it's not just that.

They're literally# talking about intervening in the internal## politics of our European partners# and saying we should operate for some## national security region reason to change# the government in countries we don't like.

And this is very comparable to a speech# that J.D.

Vance, the vice president,## gave at the Munich Security Conference# at the beginning of this administration,## which he went there.

And he really shocked# Europe by going to Germany and saying,## you should support the very radical, far right# party, the AFD, in Germany.

And, essentially, this## is codifying that approach in saying, we're going# to advocate regime change for our own allies.

VIVIAN SALAMA: It hammered European# allies for trying to, quote,## subvert free speech as well.

This is one of# the issues that it really went after your -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, we can break that out.# because there is some interesting differences## in the way that they deal with free speech# and the things that some Western European## countries do that would be onerous to us.

But# that's ultimately a minor question compared## to something I want to ask you on about,# which is, it seems as if what the Trump## administration is doing is saying there# are spheres of influence in the world.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG.. We don't recognize that China has primacy# traditionally, recognize that China is## primary in Asia and Russia is primary in# Europe.

We're a global power.

But now it## seems as if he's saying, okay, Xi, you# take Asia, Putin, you're over there,## we're in the Western hemisphere and we're not# advocating for democracy or freedom anymore.## It's just you do your thing.

We'll do# ours.

Am I wrong about this analysis?

AMNA NAWAZ: No.

And I think the latter part# of what you're saying there is key in terms## of the shift.

And this is less about a# strategy and more a statement of values,## as Vivian articulated.

It's# America first on the world stage,## which manifests itself in sort of the normalizing# of anti-democratic and authoritarian regimes,## that the parts of those powers that previous# administrations would decry as things that## western liberal democracy like America should# stand up against, that language is not in here.

And so you see a mimicking in foreign policy of# a lot of what the domestic political priorities## have been.

There's a real emphasis on trade# and commerce as sort of the leading force in## a lot of these.

There's pushback on immigration# and specifically on discouraging mass migration.## They go so far as to warn against civilizational# erasure in Europe as a result of migration.

So -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: This a projected fear?

AMNA NAWAZ: It is a projected fear# that we've heard articulated from## a number of different administration officials.

And, look, we've all acknowledged the# worldview of this administration is## just different than the previous one.

Like# they do not believe that there's a value## in global alliances or the globalization,# it has a benefit to it, or that America -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Previous# one or all previous ones?

AMNA NAWAZ: Most previous# ones, I guess, opposed to -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Republican and Democrat?

AMNA NAWAZ: Corr.. JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

AMNA NAWAZ: And .. that dominated the post-war world order,# those are gone in this administration.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And where# does Venezuela fit into this?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: I mean, Venezuela is a very# peculiar subject because the main reason## why the U.S.

was in conflict in Venezuela# over the last 20 years, or.

I don't know,## exactly how many years, was because the# Venezuelan regime was an undemocratic## regime that also had poor economic policies# that destroyed the country.

And it was an## American interest to make Venezuela# into a different and better place.

But you don't hear any of that# language coming from the Trump## administration.

They don't talk about# liberal democracy in Venezuela.

They## don't talk about the fact that there# is a legitimate democratically-elected## Venezuelan president who was forced out# of the country, who now lives in Spain.

And it makes it a strange kind of war.

You know,# why are we there?

Is it for oil?

Maybe.

Is it## because the administration needs a war to show# that there's a reason why we need to fight against## narco-traffickers inside the United States?

Is# it because we need to persecute brown-skinned## immigrants in our cities?

I mean, there's a# kind of -- I guess it's the National security## strategy at work, but it's also an illustration of# what's wrong with the national security strategy.## And we can't actually identify what exactly is# the thing.

Why are we actually going to war in## Venezuela?

Why are we bombing Venezuelan ships?# And I think that permeates this whole strategy.

I mean, I read that strategy just a# kind of long suicide note.

I mean,## we're not able to identify our enemies# anymore.

The people who are -- for example,## there was just this week news of Russians# trying to infiltrate American infrastructure## even in places in California and different# parts of the country, and we've forgotten## about all that.

We're not interested in cyber war.# Instead, we're trying to refocus for ideological,## domestic reasons on, I don't know, the Western# Hemisphere, and that's why we're doing it.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

It's almost as# if there's only the Western Hemisphere## and whatever happens in Europe and# Asia doesn't seem to matter anymore.

The reason I raised that is because I want to show# you what the NATO secretary-general, Mark Rutte,## just said about Russia's intentions, or what he# believes to be Russia's intentions.

Take a listen.

MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: We are## Russia's next target and we# are already in harm's .. Too many believe that time is on our# side.

It is not.

The time for action## is now.

Allied defense spending# and production must rise rapidly.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, Putin was recently quoted# as saying, quote, we are not planning to fight## with Europe, but if Europe suddenly# starts a war with us, we are ready.## I bring this up because, of course, he doesn't# argue -- let's put it this way.

He argues that## Ukraine started the war that he started, so# he's perfectly capable of all that kind of## verbal subterfuge.

Is this a -- is he right?# Is it coming sooner than we in America think?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: The Russians are preparing for a# very long conflict.

They are they are -- they've## reoriented their entire economy to military# production.

They are even taking the Ukrainian## children that they've kidnapped, they're training# them to be soldiers.

Putin himself has said half## jokingly, but not entirely, that any place that# there ever has been a Russian soldier in the past## can be there in the future., and that includes# not just the Baltic States, but East Germany.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What about Alaska?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: There's Alaska.

There's -- I# mean, actually the czarist troops wer.. you know?

So, I mean, it could -- you know, he# has a -- the Russian strategy has always been,## push everything as far as you can take, what you# can take, you know, only stop when you're stopped.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: .. SUSAN GLASSER: Yes.

I mean, that's the# thing is, you know, Lenin's line about,## you know, press the steel forward until --# you know, press forward until you hit steel.## And I think the remarkable thing about listening# to the NATO secretary-general is that his great## anxiety this year has been to manage not# just Vladimir Putin, but Donald Trump.

And, you know, if the United States is currently,# as it looks like under the Trump administration,## essentially overseeing the slow creeping# end of NATO, as we knew it, right?

You know,## the United States now talks routinely about# NATO as some separate entity.

Donald Trump,## of course, is publicly questioned# whether he would e ever go to war## on behalf of a NATO ally.

And I think if# you are one of those countries or Russia,## you have to expect that there will be a# test that comes at some point in the future.

Rutte flattered over the top# Donald Trump.

Earlier this year,## he called him daddy.

And here was Donald Trump# just this week mocking him because he believes## that Europe is weak.

That's what Trump said# in an interview.

These leaders are weak,## and Vladimir Putin is strong and I'm# for the strong.

And calling him daddy,## it's not secured NATO's future.

It's reinforced# the idea that the European leaders are weak.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The first rule of fight# club, never called Donald Trump daddy.

SUSAN GLASSER: Yes.

By the way, can we# just agree upon that, whoever advised him?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Vivian, I want to ask# you, related to this, Denmark this week,## its National Intelligence Agency warned# Danish leaders, this is a NATO country,## that the U.S.

now poses a security risk to# their own national security in Greenland,## but not just Greenland, obviously.

We're in a new# world.

Is that -- was that leaked to demonstrate## anxiety or was that is that a real anxiety# that the U.S.

would go to war with Denmark?

VIVIAN SALAMA: I don't think it's a real# anxiety that it would go to war with## Denmark.

I think it's -- there is this sense# that the provocative language that comes out## of the White House currently could bring# some unwelcomed attacks, some unwelcomed## threats that were not present before this.# And you hear this from nations across Europe.

And the thing that I do hear from European# officials constantly is that they do credit## President Trump for sort of lighting the# flame under their bottoms to get them to## increase their defense spending# during his first administration,## usually through threats.

But he did threaten# them to increase their defense spending and## they are all pushing to achieve that goal.# But they still have such a long way to go.

And you heard that in Rutte's language right# now, where they realize that the threats are## very real and they're not where they should# be yet, but they are moving in that direction.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Well, this is a# fascinating question because I've always been## torn on this.

Is Donald Trump threatening NATO# simply to get them to spend more money?

You know,## the thing he hates most is being ripped off,# right?

So, is this all a ploy to just get them## to buy more American equipment for one thing# or does he simply not like democracies?

I mean,## this is what we're going to be finding# out in the next three years, I guess.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, two things are true here.# One is that this idea that people need to## pull their own weight when it comes to# national security defense standards,## that goes back to Trump 1.0, like this is# consistent, right?

And to Vivian's point -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And they# weren't spending enough.

AMNA NAWAZ: Correct.

At the same time, this is a# president wh.. has not done all he can to uphold democratic# values.

He has said outright anti-democratic## things.

He has praised authoritarians.# So, western liberal democratic ideals## do not seem to be a priority for this# president, according to his own words.

What I want to underscore here in terms of what# Vivian and everyone has mentioned is even if the## U.S.

doesn't go to war with Denmark, we are in# an environment now where there's suspicion and## mistrust from what you hear from European# officials and the way that they view what## the U.S.

is saying and doing now is bad for# U.S.

national security as well.

There was that## leaked phone call with Macron and Zelenskyy,# other European officials, where he was warning## people that the U.S.

could betray Ukraine# when it comes to the security guarantees.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: Which is a real fear.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, we're going# to have to leave i.. We'll discuss the future of Europe# next week probably.

But I want to## thank our guests for joining me.

I want# to thank you at home for watching us.

To read Anne Applebaum's article comparing## Ukrainian American corruption,# please visit theatlantic.com.

I'm Jeffrey Goldberg.

Goodnight from Washington.