Washington Week with The Atlantic

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Let's talk about age, because we've mentioned Mitch McConnell.

This is the second time this happened.

There's an odd thing that happens when Mitch McConnell has a health scare in that Washington begins to talk about Joe Biden's age.

It's not necessarily fair to Joe Biden, but here we are.

Susan Page: Mitch McConnell, who is having all these serious health problems.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Serious health problems.

And, obviously, everybody wishes him well, and Joe Biden, in a kind of almost archaic move, given how Washington is, wished him well, doesn't happen in a cross partisan way anymore.

But talk about this.

Is there a chance that he steps down?

And what would that mean for the Republican leadership in the Senate and possibly negotiations over budget issues and government shutdown issues?

Susan Page: I mean, is it possible he doesn't step down at some point?

It seems unlikely to me that he serves the rest of his term as the leader of the Republican Party in the Senate.

And there are several people, all of them named John, who would like to succeed him as a Republican leader.

And all of them are respected.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Can you name the Johns?

Susan Page: John Thune, John Barrasso, and John Cornyn.

So -- Jeffrey Goldberg: You win a prize.

Susan Page: Yes.

Thank you.

Can I take the mug home?

You get to take the mug, possibly.

Susan Page: But it's bad news for Biden in two ways.

One is it spotlights age as a risk factor, which Biden doesn't need.

The other thing is Biden needs a McConnell for governing in the next couple of months to fund the government.

The government is about to run out of money at the end of this month and could shut down.

The aid to Ukraine is something that Mitch McConnell has been very helpful with for the administration.

So, this is bad news for McConnell.

This is bad news for Biden, too.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Interesting.

Asma as someone who covers the White House and also covers the Democratic electorate, is this the explanation for Biden's difficulty in the polls, his age?

Asma Khalid: It could be one of the explanations.

You had the poll numbers out there earlier, and the cross tabs will show you that a majority of Democrats are concerned about Biden's age.

There's no doubt.

I heard this.

I was out talking to a bunch of young voters at the NAACP convention this summer.

It is one of the reasons.

But I also think that there are other reasons why Biden has struggled in the polls.

You see a lackluster support when you talk about progressives, young voters, folks on the left, who don't feel like he's delivered on certain agenda items.

Again, I'm not saying that these voters will turn towards Donald Trump when there's actually an ultimatum of whom to vote for.

But, look, I think the age question is one that you hear from a lot of Democratic activists who are concerned.

It is kind of an unspoken thing amongst Democrats who will whisper it and say it very quietly that they are concerned.

A health scare could pop up anytime between now and next December.

You know, I think that this White House, you could say, is aware of that, and I think you don't want to say that there's necessarily a cause and effect.

But if I look back in June, you'll remember there was this moment where President Biden tripped over a sandbag when he was delivering remarks in Colorado.

Ever since then, I've been out with him.

He tends to use the lower staircase in going up Air Force One.

That was not a routine thing that he did.

Prior to that, at least that I recollect.

And, look, is it a cause and effect?

Who knows?

But nobody within the Democratic circle really wants to take the risk of a president tripping as he's going up on the plane.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Mark, you've written a lot about this issue of age, and you spent some time recently with Governor Whitmer of Michigan, everybody's idea of a future Democratic presidential nominee.

How bad is this for Biden?

Is there any possibility that anyone in the Democratic Party is going to challenge what is now the status quo, that Joe Biden is the nominee and Kamala Harris is his running mate?

Mark Leibovich: This could be wish casting.

I think it gets less possible every day.

But it also - - look, the opportunity is there for a Democrat to, I think, give Democratic voters a choice.

Now, I will say that Donald Trump has not only made Republicans terrified of him but he's also made Democrats very risk averse.

And when you're risk averse, you don't want to sort of go for a fresh face.

You don't want to try your hand at something that hasn't worked before.

I mean, there's nothing more conservative than going with the guy who won the last time or with someone who's as familiar with him.

Look, I think I could make a case, and I'm not going to bore anyone with this, but I think that people -- I think a Democrat who is ambitious and savvy and respectful could make an extremely compelling case for him or herself.

Jeffrey Goldberg: What are the chances of that happening?

Susan Page: I don't think it happens unless Biden opens the door to it.

I don't think it's going to happen without Biden saying, I'm stepping down for whatever reason.

But if Biden did that, I think there would be a big contest, including Vice President Harris, including a Midwestern Democratic governor.

That could be a formidable candidate.

Amy Klobuchar ran a respectable race last time.

I mean, I think there would be a lot of competition for that.

And it would be pretty messy because are you trying to deny the first black woman to be elected to national office, deny her a chance to move up a slot?

And, yes, there are Democrats who'd be happy to challenge -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Kamala Harris has problems with popularity, but the base is with Kamala, yes?

Is that a fair statement?

Asma Khalid: Yes.

I mean, I went out with her quite to a number of stops this summer, and, really, the campaign sees her as being specifically able to court black and brown voters, young voters, and these are base voters that the Democratic Party needs.

She has been out there a lot more on the campaign.

But to your point, I think it would be very messy if Biden, for any reason, were not to run or even frankly and say he wins a second term and doesn't run.

And if Kamala Harris is not -- if a lot of other Democrats contest her, I think it could be messy for the party.

And I don't know that there's a clear answer of what would happen.

Mark Leibovich: Yes.

I think what's happening now is pretty messy, too.

It might just be quieter and less polite to talk about in public.

Jeffrey Goldberg: What do you mean by that?

Mark Leibovich: I think these massive poll numbers against Biden largely because of his age and the age itself.

I mean, look, he's 80 years old.

I mean, we cannot sit here and make him any younger, unfortunately.

So, to me, that is central here.

And, again, it's a little too clear cut to talk about, but it's very, very messy.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Could you just talk for one more minute just from your reporter perspective?

You're watching him incredible closely.

You've studied the stairs of Air Force One and which staircase people use.

Do you feel like he's noticeably slowed down in any form or fashion?

Asma Khalid: Look, I went out with Biden a good amount during the 2020 campaign.

I think there is an attempt by the staff to manage him more closely and carefully than there was during 2020.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Physically?

Asma Khalid: Physically, but also even I would say -- I mean, this is no secret, right?

I think that there was an effort to kind of -- he doesn't do press conferences as often, right?

He'll take questions here and there under the wing, but he was just more off the cuff as a candidate, speaking to reporters at different stops where he would go.

Look, I think, ultimately, no matter how fit or unfit somebody is at the age of 80, potentially being 82 upon inauguration, that raises questions for anybody of any health.

Kyle Cheney: I kind of wonder too how much of this is driven.

Republicans on the other side have spent four years almost kind of weaponizing Biden's age against him.

Trump is not that much younger than him, but we don't ever talk about Donald Trump's age.

Asma Khalid: You don't see it in the poll numbers either.

Kyle Cheney: Right.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Why is that?

Kyle Cheney: I mean, that's a great question in part because I don't think you've had this years of concerted effort.

I mean, Donald Trump, they're running ads showing Biden tripping every five seconds.

And I think that creates an aura that has sort of stuck with Joe Biden.

Donald Trump has always been very good at branding his opponents in ways that they can't shake, and this seems to be one of those examples, is just to talk about Biden's age and his health.

And every time he coughs we're going to put that in an ad.

And they don't do -- there's no counterpart to that aimed at Donald Trump, who has a different demeanor than Biden, but certainly has things you could point out about his own age.

Mark Leibovich: Can I just actually just point out, though, that, I mean, it's not just making an issue of Biden's age, it's lying, it's saying he's senile, saying he's demented, saying he's out of it.

I mean, I think it's important to sort of state for a fact that a lot of these are just -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Mentally, he's quite acute.

Mark Leibovich: It seems like it.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Susan, how did we get to a point where in a country of 330 million people, we probably have a 77-year-old running against an 81-year-old, 78-year-old?

Susan Page: And, by the way, the two people who ran against each other last time around.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Susan Page: And where a majority of Americans say, please do not nominate these two people, we would like to vote for somebody else?

Yes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

This is an essay question.

You have 40 seconds to answer.

Susan Page: It's because we have two incumbent presidents.

Incumbents have a lot of advantages when it comes to running again.

This is incumbent President Trump against incumbent President Biden.

And the likelihood -- and, I mean, things change, it's more than a year away, but this is the most likely scenario, the most likely choice Americans are going to have next year.

Jeffrey Goldberg: And there's no off ramp, you're not seeing any off ramps to this contest right now?

Susan Page: Well, not at the moment.

But should we say that given the age of both these candidates and the fact that that this -- one of the candidates is about to go on trial?

So, things happen.