Frederica Freyberg:
In presidential election news, by now, most people have heard of Project 2025, a conservative blueprint to fundamentally reshape the federal government. The plan especially came into focus in recent weeks as Democrats ramped up attacks against Donald Trump. Even though the head of Project 2025 stepped down this week amid intense criticism, conservative leaders say that work isn’t yet done. “Here & Now reporter Nathan Denzin describes the conservative action plan and why opponents are warning a second Trump term could be a threat to democracy.

Nathan Denzin:
Opponents’ messaging against Donald Trump has been clear. He’s a threat to democracy.

Kamala Harris:
Ours is a fight for the future. [cheers] And it is a fight for freedom.

Charlie Sykes:
Trump 2.0 would, I think, be substantially more dangerous than Trump 1.0.

Daniel Patrick Hodges:
He’s told us that he wants to be a dictator on day one.

Nathan Denzin:
But Republicans disagree.

Lorenzo Sewell:
I don’t believe he’s a threat to democracy.

Terrence Wall:
That was not his original statement. That was made by the Democrats.

Linda Walters:
I want him to be a dictator.

Nathan Denzin:
Kamala Harris, now the presumptive nominee as the Democratic candidate for president, talked about the perceived threat in her visit to Milwaukee.

Kamala Harris:
Do we want to live in a country of freedom, compassion and rule of law or a country of chaos, fear and hate?

Nathan Denzin:
Fears like Donald Trump becoming a dictator.

Sean Hannity:
You would never abuse power as retribution against anybody.

Donald Trump:
Except for day one.

Sean Hannity:
Except for?

Donald Trump:
He’s going crazy. Except for day one.

Sean Hannity:
Meaning?

Donald Trump:
I want to close the border and I want to drill…

Sean Hannity:
That’s not…

Donald Trump:
Drill, drill.

Sean Hannity:
That’s not…

Julia Azari:
It’s just not — it’s just not language that you kind of ideally want somebody to use.

Nathan Denzin:
Julia Azari is a professor of political science at Marquette University.

Julia Azari:
What he’s sort of saying is, even for a day, we’re going to eliminate the kind of guardrails and other takes and perspectives.

Linda Walters:
My response is, “Are you that dumb? I mean, how can you be that gullible and believe what the media and pundits are making up?”

Nathan Denzin:
Linda Walters is a Republican from Florida who visited Milwaukee for the Republican National Convention.

Linda Walters:
For one day, I want him to be like every other — like, just like Biden was on the first day, all the executive orders that he put in place to ruin this country.

Nathan Denzin:
Walters, like many Republicans, say Democrats are blowing Trump’s comments out of proportion or taking him out of context.

Lorenzo Sewell:
I don’t believe everything that people say. The Bible says a foolish man believes everything he hears. I would be curious to have that conversation with him in terms of what he meant. What’s the context of those comments?

Nathan Denzin:
Pastor Lorenzo is a Republican from Detroit who came to Milwaukee to speak at the RNC.

Lorenzo Sewell:
You can’t deny the power of God on this man’s life. You can’t deny that God protected him. There have been a lot of threats to democracy. I don’t believe he’s one of those.

Julia Azari:
Our evaluation of the evidence and our evaluation of how this has played out in other contexts has led us to be pretty, pretty alarmed.

Nathan Denzin:
Azari pointed out Trump’s rhetoric has already led to violence in the past on January 6th.

Donald Trump:
And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.

Harry Dunn:
He has encouraged and continues to encourage political violence. Not only does he encourage it, he supports it. He endorses it. He condones it.

Daniel Patrick Hodges:
It’s up to us, the people, to make sure that he doesn’t get that chance.

Nathan Denzin:
Harry Dunn and Daniel Patrick Hodges were police officers in the U.S. Capitol during the insurrection on January 6th. They came to Madison in May to campaign for President Biden. Both say they were attacked by the angry mob.

Daniel Patrick Hodges:
I’d call January 6th a dry run, except it wasn’t. It was a real attempt.

Harry Dunn:
The people that were there told us they were there because Donald Trump sent them. That’s not my opinion. Those are their words as they were attacking officers.

Nathan Denzin:
Thirteen Wisconsinites have been indicted for their role in the insurrection. While federal prosecutors continue to work through cases.

Julia Azari:
Especially when it comes to giving up power and leaving office, that seems to be a real sticking point.

Nathan Denzin:
Those fears have been inflamed by Project 2025. The sweeping proposal by ultra-conservative allies to Trump would radically change the federal government. Project 2025 includes proposals to restrict abortion nationwide, allow for discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, use the FBI to go after political enemies, suspend immigrants’ due process, and proceed with mass deportations, eliminate the Department of Education and all environmental protections and the list goes on.

Donald Trump:
On day one, I will sign a new executive order to cut federal funding of any school pushing critical race theory, transgender insanity [cheers] and other inappropriate racial, sexual or political content onto the lives of our children.

Julia Azari:
It just takes it in a much more radical and ideological direction and consolidates that presidential power.

Nathan Denzin:
Trump has tried to distance himself from Project 2025 in recent weeks, saying on social media, “I know nothing about Project 2025. I have no idea who is behind it.” But over 200 people affiliated with his campaign were also involved in the creation of Project 2025.

Charlie Sykes:
I think Donald Trump manifestly poses a threat to the American political system, and I don’t think that’s theoretical any longer.

Nathan Denzin:
Charlie Sykes is an author and former host of a popular Milwaukee conservative talk radio show.

Charlie Sykes:
He tried to overturn a fair and free election. He incited a mob to attack the Capitol.

Nathan Denzin:
Sykes said that he voted with Republicans for more than 20 years but broke with the party in 2016 after Trump secured the nomination.

Charlie Sykes:
Donald Trump has said that his next presidency would be a presidency of retribution. He’s openly talked about using the power of the federal government to go after and punish his opponents.

Julia Azari:
It’s sort of hard to escape that he’s had this sort of impact on the tone of politics.

Charlie Sykes:
It’s very unlikely that the Republican Party, in either the House or the Senate, would serve as any sort of a bulwark against those kinds of extreme measures.

Nathan Denzin:
Republicans at the RNC had a different response to the Project 2025 proposals.

Terrence Wall:
Republicans, we want to have the American dream. We want everybody to live that American dream.

Nathan Denzin:
Terrence Wall was a Republican delegate at the RNC from Wisconsin’s 2nd Congressional District.

Terrence Wall:
They project their own storyline onto others so they are the threat to democracy.

Nathan Denzin:
In fact, Wall said of Trump’s time as a real estate developer, he’s participated in democracy more than just about anybody else.

Terrence Wall:
He sponsored the democratic process to get projects approved. You know, dealing with neighborhood associations, plan commissions, hundreds of commissions and committees in cities, you know, councils.

Nathan Denzin:
More recently, a jury convicted Trump of 34 felonies for falsifying business records in May.

Charlie Sykes:
I don’t think that there’s any question after January 6th what he is capable of doing.

Daniel Patrick Hodges:
Trump has shown us who he is. He’s shown us what he stands for, and he’s shown us that he wants to be president for life.

Julia Azari:
Regardless of whether people voted for and regardless of who the president is, if they consolidate power in a certain way, that’s still anti-democratic.

Harry Dunn:
Hopefully we can move forward and continue to preserve our democracy and our constitution.

Nathan Denzin:
For “Here & Now,” I’m Nathan Denzin in Milwaukee.