Redlining: Mapping Inequality in Dayton & Springfield

- Good evening.

Thank you again for joining us for the virtual screening of Redlining: Mapping Inequality in Dayton & Springfield.

I'm Dave Taylor, superintendent and CEO of the Dayton Early College Academy.

I'm also proud to serve as the Vice Chair of Public Media Connects' board of trustees.

With me, here tonight, are Selena Burks-Rentschler, she's one of the filmmakers who created this documentary; Jonathan Cain, lifelong Daytonian, insurance agent, and executive director of the Future Stars of Dayton mentoring program; Michael Carter, Chief Diversity Officer at Sinclair College; and Dr. Leslie Picca, professor and Roesch Chair in the Social Sciences at the University of Dayton.

I wanna thank all of you for being here tonight.

I'm so excited to have this conversation.

But first, I wanna encourage everyone at home to ask questions.

As with all of our virtual screenings, below the viewing window, you will see the chat area.

Please feel free to ask questions throughout our discussion.

We'll try to get to as many as we can.

So, let's get started.

Selena, why do you think it's important to tell this story, and why is it important to tell it now?

- Well, I believe that this is a very important story to tell, because this is America's story, number one.

What impacts one, impacts all.

- That's right.

- And when you look at how the government had such a integral role in designing the communities the way they are in the north, in the east, in the southwest, in the west, it was clearly intentional that they were trying to quarantine a group of people; particularly African Americans.

And, you know, I grew up in a redlining community, and I didn't understand why my neighborhood looked the way it did it.

It wasn't 'til I got involved with this project and read Richard Rothstein's Color of Law, and learned about the difference between de jure and de facto segregation.

And I think that telling this story from a local vantage point is so crucial.

Because we all need to be invested, and you can't change the national narrative without taking care of home first.

- That's right.

- So I feel that that's why this is such a topical story today.

- Thank you.

We're gonna go to you next, Jonathan.

I'm curious to know what some of your reactions were, having seen this amazing film.

- First off was, like, "Wow."

To know that I grew up in a home in a area that was redlined, and to hear about predatory lending and how my it affected my mom, not just when she first got the home, but also as she refinanced.

But I think the biggest thing for me was just the educational aspect of it; and learning, and wanting to learn more about it, just from the things that was discussed; and how this information that's being shared now will impact the kids who are coming up for the future.

- That's right.

- And making sure that information is passed to them, so they know, kind of, where people were at and what we had to go through, and what people prior to them had to go through in order to have equity, and knowing that it's their role to create, and make it even better for those who are coming behind them.

So it was really eye-opening.

- Thank you.

Leslie, we're gonna turn to you for a second.

You know, we hear about laws that have been passed, and you can say redlining is the thing of the past; why does it still matter?

And how is it still playing out today?

- Yeah, I think it's pretty clear to see the correlations in terms of if you look at the redlining maps of the 1930s, they're still very highly correlated in terms of looking at educational outcomes, looking at graduation rates, looking at health disparities.

So certainly, you know, when we look at health, wealth disparities as well, too, so we can actually connect the dots and see that it didn't start out this way.

And so, we can certainly see how those redlining maps certainly correlate to an impact, the disparities that are really hiding in plain sight right now.

- Yeah.

Thank you.

- So we have a number of our amazing audience members who have submitted questions, and we're gonna start with one, here, from Alice, in Dayton.

So Alice asked, and we're gonna hopefully have you answer first, Mr. Carter, "Why is there suddenly so much interest in redlining when we hadn't heard about it for years?"

- I think the genie's out of the bottle.

Social media has helped.

I think of what Will Smith said a few years ago.

You're the one who showed me that quote, that, "There isn't more racism, racism's being filmed."

- That's right.

- I think about the time when Spike Lee was making movies and how hard it was for him to get financing.

- Yeah.

- Now there are people like LeBron James, and Russell Westbrook, and Oprah Winfrey, and others who will commit dollars to telling stories.

So we can possess our own stories now.

- Yeah.

- And we don't have to depend on school districts, or Hollywood to tell those stories.

So I think that is bringing the interest.

And also, this push from the right to ban CRT, to ban books, only causes people to be more interested in the very things that folks don't want to get out.

- [Dave] That's true.

- And I think it's important to note, too, that those maps were originally, as it said in the documentary, not intended to be made public.

And so, certainly we can see this interest in that, it was just a couple years ago that, I think it was the University of Richmond, that digitized all these maps and made them available.

And so we can certainly see online, direct correlations that're taking place.

And so, certainly we can see why there's been, you know, such interest with the impact of redlining.

- Blatant and overt racism is easier to battle than subtle and covert racism.

I think of sundown towns.

The reason people didn't know about out 'em is there was nothing on paper about them.

It was just, you knew, it was implied, word got out, and people knew that they weren't welcome.

So I think that has impacted and affected things as well.

- Yeah.

So, we're gonna go to another one of our amazing questions from Jill, in Clayton.

Jill wants to talk about gentrification.

So "Gentrification will be coming soon to the Dayton View area.

Will redlining continue in this area once it's gentrified?"

Who wants to take this one?

- I think that when I had some initial conversation, that was one that, that was a question that I had.

Because I live in upper Dayton View around the old seminary, or, now, The Hope Center from Omega.

And, it's changing.

The neighborhood is changing where, when I first moved in, in 2011 or 2010, it was majority Black.

And now, you know, I go outside and I run, and I see white people walking dogs, and they're in the neighborhood.

Which is a good thing to me.

And so, I feel that it is gonna have to be some shift that comes, because the community is changing.

Where before, there was a great migration to the suburbs.

Now it's reverse migration, and people are coming back into the city.

So I think now there is gonna be even more of a spotlight put on the community in regards to change.

- And oftentimes the indicator is goods and services coming back.

So, when neighborhoods start to gentrify, you start seeing those little tell-tale sign, middle-class signs, coffee shops, and boutiques, and things of that nature.

So that is an indicator.

I think the struggle for a lot of folks, and me included, is, I think there is a fine line between redevelopment and regret.

And where is that sweet spot?

Because everyone desires to live in a nice neighborhood.

But to be driven out, I think the regret comes when people who have paid, who own their homes; and because the tax rate increases, they can no longer afford to live there.

So that's when the regret comes.

So you see this all over the country.

I mean, if you go to Washington, Washington DC doesn't look like Washington DC did when I was growing up.

- No.

- And some of those things, and communities are wrestling with that.

Because it's different.

Where do those people go, who have lived there, whatever state or condition they're in.

They are occupants of those communities, where do they go?

- Right.

- And where are they moved to?

Where are they relocated to?

And that is the unfortunate situation that happens oftentimes.

- Michael, we're gonna stay with you.

I'm curious to know, you know, and we talked a little bit about this already, but do we still, in effect, have redlining today?

And if we do, what form is it taking now?

- Well, that's a loaded question.

So yeah, we have redlining because of the effects.

So, as Leslie mentioned, you can take a redlining map and take all these issues that communities have in education and healthcare, and they're in the same places.

But, once again, they've had to recraft what this is.

Because redlining's so in your face, it's so obvious and discussed.

So now there are new techniques that happen.

You know, home appraisals.

- Yes.

- Where you live in a home, and your home is appraised at a lower value than what it's worth, or Black families having to get white families to pose as them.

- Right.

- In order to get a decent appraisal.

- That was a great line, by the way, in the documentary; your line was great about that.

(participants laugh) But it's true, isn't it?

- It's true, yeah.

That's the reality; and we will do that.

I mean, I promise you, we will do that because there's just a lack of trust.

And I think the whole whitewashing that, we had this discussion on campus today; most people don't know that many Black families whitewash their home when they go to sell it.

So, which simply means taking down - Everything.

all your pictures, everything, all your books, that indicate that you are a family of color, so that someone will desire to purchase it.

And in 2022, that's sad, that that is the case.

But that's the reality.

- I think another form of redlining that has been reincarnated is the way the banks don't lend adequate amounts of money to under-invested communities.

- That's right.

- That there's a cap.

Cora Diggs said it wonderfully in the documentary, where banks will not loan to anyone under $50,000; but yet, your house is appraised to be, $19,000, $27,000.

And you can't even get a repair loan to add value to your home.

So I feel like it's just a cycle that just keeps feeding on itself.

- And it's so insidious too, the way that it works as well.

And so for many of these policies that we have, there's nothing mentioned about race, but yet, the subtext has a very clear racial hierarchy behind it.

- That's right.

- So, I think when we're talking about home appraisers, it's easy to point to other issues to account for this.

But when you kind of take that 30,000-foot perspective, you can see, "Okay, there's something going on here with regards to we're still living with these legacies of white supremacist policies and practices from the past."

- Absolutely.

- The data is very clear.

- I often wonder what is the tipping point?

So you think of a neighborhood, and let's say there are 90 homes in it.

And let's say, is it three Black families?

- Right.

- Is it five?

Is it 10?

- Yep.

- What is the tipping point?

And I think that that often happens in neighborhoods.

There's a point where many white people say, "Okay, that's enough," - "That's it."

- "And I'm gone."

And that is something, that's not redlining, but it is this conscious awareness that I'm not gonna live in a diverse neighborhood.

- Right.

- And much of it is coded, too, in terms of being concerned about property values.

So it's not hatred.

So one of the things that I really appreciate about this documentary, is oftentimes when we talk about race, we think about it in terms of individual actors, and we think about it in terms of hatred; so we think about it in terms of the KKK.

This is the government that's doing this; these are government policies, that we can certainly see the perpetuation of these kinds of issues, and so... - Which goes to, you know, we talked about all this being layered, which goes to Proposition 14, which came out in 1963, which talked about your freedom, your individual freedom, your right to discriminate if you want to.

So that was the next layer of redlining, that, "What's wrong with me, I should be able to sell whoever I want to.

What's wrong with that?"

So there's always this throw your hands up.

Like, "What're are you talking about?

I'm not racist," or, "These practices aren't racist, I just wanna have freedom to sell to whoever I want to."

- That's right.

- And it's pretty interesting that you say that, 'cause now, when you guys talk about it, I try to put into layman's terms for myself.

And I had a friend whose family lived in Dayton as a kid, and they moved to Trotwood, then they moved to Inglewood, then they moved to Tipp City.

So exactly what you're saying, what is the tipping point for when people are like, "A little too many, so let's go on to the next community."

So that's very interesting, to hear you all say that.

- During my research, I ran across a report from 1967, at the Wright State Special Archives, that had data that said that when a different ethnic group moved into a community that was predominantly white, depending on that ethnicity, they can handle that type of integration.

But when you start to add multiple... - That's interesting.

- And it's different for each group of people.

So if you're Asian, "Okay, we can stay here."

But if you're Black, "Then we have to leave."

- Right.

- One Black family, maybe two at the most, - Right.

- But, yeah, it's... Yeah.

- So we have, in many ways, de facto redlining, because of what we feel most comfortable with.

We have another audience question.

I'm sorry, I wanna get over to this.

So Joni from Centervile is asking us, "How can we close the financial education gap among families of color?

How do we do it systematically to make change happen faster and more equitably?"

Very simple question; won't be hard at all, to answer, guys.

(participants laugh) - That's a great question.

- It is an excellent question.

- I think- Oh, I'm sorry.

Nope, I defer; ladies first, ladies first.

- Well, I was just gonna say, I think that there are entities like the Realtist organization in Dayton, that have workshops where they talk to residents about how you prepare yourself for going under the scrutiny of applying for a home loan in the first place; to get your credit score up, to make sure your bills are paid.

But I just don't think that there's enough of that.

I don't know why I don't have the answer to that, but I do feel that there are people, there are organizations who are working with disenfranchised communities, to help educate them and get them up to speed.

- And this is something that, historically, we haven't done in our families.

For a lot of different reasons.

Sometimes because of lack of opportunity, sometimes these conversations were painful because of resources.

But we need to have these conversations with our children, - That's right.

- and talk about these things, so that we prepare them so that they know.

Our children should know, tell you, we gotta take 'em to the bank.

We have to take 'em to show them things as far as related to finances, let them read books about fiscal responsibility, so that it is not foreign to them.

When you start finding this stuff out, when you're 24, 25, it's too late.

- It's too late, mmhm.

- You know, and what happens when you're in college?

Who do they send credit cards to?

College students.

And if you're just finding that out then, about... Too late.

So we've gotta have these conversations at a very, very early age.

So, and even when we're not comfortable, or knowledgeable.

I think we've got to work to prepare ourselves, so that we can prepare our children as well.

- And it's not only the individual level, but also looking structurally.

And I think it surprises people to know that the wealth gap is actually growing; so it's not getting smaller.

So we can certainly see, from the 1980s, you know, certainly past the 2008 housing crisis, that the gap is widening.

And in part, the system is set up that way.

So I tell my students, "The system isn't broken, it's doing exactly what - Exactly what it was designed to do.

- it was designed to do."

- Yes.

- And so, you know, until we take a look at tax policies, and, you know, other kinds of investments, reinvesting into different communities, these things, at the individual level, are certainly gonna be significant, but also having that community-wide conversation as well, too.

- Well said.

We have another question from our audience; this one comes from Hunt, in Dayton.

"How did the placement of I-75 relate to redlining?"

- I think, in many cities, these kinds of highways and rivers actually served as a sort of physical barrier to make some kind of change.

So I know if you look at the redlining map, certainly, to some extent, it kind of follows along I-75, as well as along the river.

I know that there was significant impact that 35 caused.

- Mmhmm.

- So if you look at I-35, - Yes.

- in terms of going through different neighborhoods, too.

- It cut communities of color off from services.

One of the primary I think of, if you look at Lincoln Heights, and near Cincinnati, purposely, it was cut off so that it can compete.

It was the first incorporated all-Black city in the north; but that caused consternation for many whites in the community.

So this was strategic, and designed how to cut it off.

So there have, you know, in the 1619 Project, it's a great article about Atlanta.

If you wanna know why the traffic is bad in Atlanta, it's because of redlining; it was designed that way.

So this was intentional, in order to cut communities of color off, and away from services.

And we still see, you know, when people talk about the effects; those effects, when you've got a highway, how is that going to go away anytime soon?

So, you know, these things are lasting.

- And when I think about it, just for me growing up in Dayton, I'm a lifelong Daytonian, and thinking about going up Salem, from downtown, and all the different stores that there was from downtown Dayton up through Trotwood.

And then, when 35 came through there, I mean, it dried up.

It dried up, so, those are very interesting things that you guys are saying; that I could really visualize and see, that went away.

- We have another question from our audience.

This one comes from Sean in Chicago.

And Sean asked us, "What are the biggest current weapons of institutional and structural racism that you see at work in Dayton today?

And what are our best tools in fighting against them?"

- I think part of the nature of institutional racism is that the system is set up to do the work, so you don't need individual, kind of, good or bad people.

But it's already set up that way, and I think, to some extent, looking at neighborhoods, and even the way that we talk about different neighborhoods.

So I know, I always have to sort of question my students when they talk about good neighborhoods and bad neighborhoods, because there is very clear racial connotations, oftentimes, attached to that in terms of a safe neighborhood or an unsafe neighborhood.

So in terms of the sort of weapon, I think just how easy it is to ignore it.

And so, you know, I teach at the University of Dayton, I've taught at some other colleges and universities, and I think many people, especially many predominantly white audiences, are sort of surprised to hear this.

And I really feel like it really is hiding in plain sight.

And so, pointing it out and saying, "Are you noticing, sort of, different spaces in terms of where the, who has the green, treeline neighborhoods, as compared to boarded-up housing?"

So those kinds of things that we don't necessarily always associate with racialized spaces, but subconsciously, we certainly can see that.

- [Dave] For sure.

For sure.

- I think ways to combat it is, what's going on this evening.

A screening with tons of information, tons of data that you can't run from, and just having the conversations.

And I believe the educational aspect, because so many of us are ignorant to what redlining was, and how it still plays into our communities today.

So the education aspect, I think, is one of the most ways that we can combat it.

- Yeah, 'cause media is so powerful for this very reason.

You change perceptions through media.

- Yes you do.

- I mean, I think about when Morgan Freeman was a president in Deep Impact.

(chuckles) And, you know, flash forward, we have Obama.

- That's right.

- You know, and you have to be courageous in these discussions, and to be ready to face the truths, the ugly truths, that are in black and white, that are everywhere.

You can look it up online at Mapping Inequality, you can read the descriptions of how they labeled each individual neighborhood, with language like, "infiltration of Negros," "high-hazardous area."

I mean, it's just unbelievable.

Or even the restrictive covenants.

No person of color can own or rent this property unless, they can only be here unless they're a servant of that house.

I feel that media really can take it to the perceptions of what most Americans may feel.

And just challenge that, and turn it on and said, like, "Let's not blame the people who've been victimized."

- Right.

Right.

- Because, number one, they're very empowered.

They've organized, they persevere, they push through, and they're not victims, you know?

They're resilient.

And so, just more, like you said, more conversations like this, and media that just keep challenging these perceptions.

- Yeah.

- Being as knowledgeable as we can on every level.

Whether it's housing, whether it's education.

Dave, you and I talk a lot about the whole idea of, so we don't have tracking in school, per se.

- Right.

- But what do we do?

When do you take algebra?

And if you don't take algebra in the eighth grade, - Right.

- then, essentially, you've been tracked.

So it's being knowledgeable.

And all those things, it doesn't matter where you live.

See, that can happen to you if you live in the wealthiest suburb in Ohio, or whatever state you live in, that's still a piece of what can be done.

So this was always crafty.

So being knowledgeable and having conversations, I think you pointed out, Jonathan, getting information and then having conversations.

Because how many times have we felt a certain way about something and kept it to ourselves; and other people feel the same way, or they feel the same things, or experience the same things.

So there's power in numbers.

And I think that is beneficial to us as well.

- And I think recognizing that these're really complex, hard topics that are emotionally charged.

And I think just recognizing that, usually when I teach my classes, the first thing that I, when I talk about race and ethnicity, is I have my students answer a question; "When I think about race, I feel, blank."

And usually it's "frustrated," "guilty," "angry."

And so, to some extent, just acknowledging that, and, you know, not being afraid.

I think, particularly from any white individuals, there's this concern that, "I'm gonna get it wrong.

I'm gonna say something that's gonna be offensive."

And so, when you're in relationship with people, the more that you educate yourself, you can kinda get past some of those feelings.

- And I think, too, to what everybody has said, especially what you were just saying, is that for those who don't believe, understand, that it's been a reality for certain people.

- For those who've been through it, - That's right.

- don't let the anger stop you from having positive action.

And when those two can come together, I think you can really have some good traction.

- And I would agree with all of that.

I think we've got to go to the next question, here.

This one's from Frank and Kathy in Kettering.

And the question is, "What's been the incremental impact on the hollow promise of the GI Bill on top of redlining?"

- So if you look at the GI Bill that was largely aimed at giving resources to veterans coming back from World War II, especially educational kinds of benefits, that were intended to be used for all veterans.

But certainly we know, there were over a million African American veterans that were not given those same kinds of benefits.

So I think it's around only 20% of African American veterans were able to utilize the GI loans.

And so, we certainly see this discrimination on top of discrimination too.

So even those individuals coming back, serving their country in the 1940s, not only being able to not use their benefits that they rightfully earned, but also being shut out of different kinds of neighborhoods.

- And you pointed on something really powerful.

And I think the assumption is that the GI Bill was wonderful, right?

- Mmhm.

- Yes.

- So I think part of this is the realization that there were people who couldn't take advantage.

My father being one of them.

I mean, that was something that, one of the few things I heard him discuss out of frustration was that he didn't have, he fought in World War II, fought in the Pacific theater, and didn't have access in spite of that.

So that was something that, and it impacted our family for generations.

Or has, since then.

So, you know, that is something that we've got to talk about what that is.

So oftentimes, in history books, we talk about how wonderful the GI Bill... - Right.

- There has to be an asterisk by that, because it wasn't great for everybody.

Much like, if you ask people, "When was America wonderful?"

Or, in their mind.

It depends on who you ask, (man laughs) the time period.

Somebody says the '50s, and if my dad was living, he'd say, "Mmm, not so much."

So, I think we have to have those conversations, and it's vantage point, as far as how that looks and feels.

And we have to have those real, rich conversations about things like the GI Bill, things like Levittowns, and things like that; that were great for some, and not very good for a lot of folks, also.

- I mean, The New Deal is a prime example, because that's where redlining came from.

From the FHA, from the Home Owners' Loan Corporation.

You know, they had these residential maps.

And, okay, Harry Kissell, a Springfield native, who was an amazing developer, developed Ridgewood but used restrictive covenants, put his imprint on the structure of what The National Home Act was, in 1934.

So again, it benefited so many Americans, but purposely cut out other Americans.

And it's important to understand that African Americans are Americans.

- [Dave] That's right.

- We fight for this country.

We give our blood, our time, our dedication, our loyalty, and only thing we're asking for is to be acknowledged as citizens.

- [Dave] That's right.

- The zero sum game is what affects a lot of people in their minds.

So, "If we're doing this for people of color, somehow I'm losing something."

- [Selena] Right.

- So that zero sum game.

"We can't do this because I'm gonna lose."

And that's what we have to avoid, because the more we shift to this idea of being American, as opposed to having a prefix in front of what an American is, for some people, then we will start moving toward what this country can be.

- And I think, Sinclair, you all just hosted, is it Heather McGhee, who wrote the book, The Sum of Us; and she really takes that approach of, "How does racism harm everybody?"

So, "How does this vast inequality harm everybody?"

And some people say what it's gonna take, is, how do you get dominant group members?

How do you get white folks to see we're losing out on this too, and so need to be invested in these conversations?

- Yeah, then, a lot of ways it's pointed out in the book, of how that affects.

And I think that is the message people need to hear.

- Yeah.

- We focus on what happens to Black folks.

But, you know, data shows, people who have enriched, diverse lives, live better lives, - Yes.

- and people with a zero sum game, "Somehow, that isn't working for me."

But, you know, like the Mark Twain saying, "Ain't what I don't know that gets me in trouble, it's what I know for sure that just ain't so."

(participants laugh) And that is, you know, I love that; that's my favorite quote, - That's a good one.

- And so, yeah.

And that's how many people live their lives, because if I'm in an echo chamber, and everyone I encounter thinks, and talks, and believes like me, I'm never gonna hear anything that might challenge those ideas and thoughts.

- Yeah.

- I think, that's a good point, a good place for us to go to the next question, which actually happens to be from, I believe, my brother in Pittsburgh.

So Carl in Pittsburgh says, "Before gentrification takes place, there are a bunch of investors who 'knew' it was going to happen.

How can people of color be included in these discussions?"

- One way, there has to be inclusion at the table.

So, you have voices.

If no one of various voices is there, then you're gonna have these decisions made.

But if there's someone, the visual I think of is the Red Cross swimming pool poster that came out seven or eight years ago, and everyone who was doing something negative was a kid of color.

Everyone doing something positive was a white kid.

- Yep.

Yep.

- Well, you know how that came out.

And Red Cross is, I mean, we love the Red Cross, but you know that there was nobody, there was no diversity in the room.

- That's right.

- Oh, for sure.

- Because if there had been, someone said, "Mmm, we can't put this poster out."

So that is a problem.

Companies have found, especially global companies have found this out.

For the bottom line in dollars, it's gonna help us.

So I think it's having voices that are versed in the room to help make good decisions so people aren't excluded.

- That's right.

- That's right.

- We know many of the challenges we're facing today were the solutions of past problems.

And so, if you don't have a diverse group, if you don't have the folks that are directly impacted, then you get these issues with, if it's the predatory lending, if you get, you know, affirmative action policies, for example, that was largely created by white politicians.

And that's, you know, not necessarily a solution to many challenges that we see in the workplace.

So you certainly need those folks at the table, that are gonna be engaged in these kinds of conversations.

- In our wisdom, we never asked the folks who're most impacted.

Because we know what's good for them.

- [Dave] We know what's right.

- You know, we know what's better for them than they do, so we never asked them; and we wonder why these things blow up and don't work.

- I would also add to this, seeing more people of color in political office is also a huge piece as well.

If you want a seat at the table, get votes, actually have a seat at the table where decisions are being made.

- [Michael] Without gerrymandering.

- Without... (hums) - Yes.

- Or token.

- Without gerrymandering, for sure.

You know, Leslie, I wanna come back to you; I think you have an interesting story, is, how did you first hear about redlining?

- So I think, for me, you know, I certainly heard about it from an academic context, in terms of undergrad.

But, actually, between undergrad and grad school, I actually worked in real estate.

And so, that's what quickly made me realize I need to go to graduate school for sociology, to get a PhD.

But I certainly saw real estate practices that were very kind, but yet perpetuating these same kinda segregated kind of social spaces.

And so, things like racial steering was certainly very prevalent.

So real estate agents showing white couples spaces in largely white neighborhoods out of comfort.

You know, comfort.

- Right.

- So feeling, you know, "This family will feel comfortable in this space," so it wasn't malicious, or intended to be sort of negative.

- Right.

But just, "We know what's best for this particular individual."

So yeah, so for me, I think it was kind of my experiences in real estate.

I also spent a lot of time waiting tables too, in grad school, and can just certainly see how racialized conversations take place.

that oftentimes, they're very different when whites are by themselves, or they think that they're by themselves as compared to in the company of folks of color.

So yeah, so for me, it was kind of that brief stint that I had in real estate that (laughs) quickly made me realize I need to go back to school.

- Hmm.

Yeah.

We have another audience question.

We'll go back to this now.

Bill from Oakwood asked us, "How do we promote, or how can one promote inclusion?"

- I think focusing on one sphere of influence is one key thing to keep in mind.

I think the issues that we're talking about in terms of education, health disparities, looking at economics, I mean, these are really big issues.

- Yeah.

And so, sometimes, keeping in mind, what is your sphere of influence?

What can you control?

What conversations can you have with friends, family, coworkers?

If you work in a place of employment, looking at policies and practices, how may that be maintaining a sort of white-normative kind of standard.

So, I think, you know, reaching out, going outside of your comfort zone.

If you're in the Dayton area, so, some examples can be, going to spaces that are minority-owned companies, going to Gem City Market, for example, Peace on Fifth.

So sometimes that can be just sort of going outside of your comfort zone too.

- [Selena] Yeah.

- [Jonathan] Great point.

- You know, you hit on it very well.

I think we have to ask ourself, who are our friends, and who do we come in contact with?

Who do we spend time with at work?

Do we make an effort - Yes.

- to relate, and speak and spend time with people who are different than us?

And that's helpful.

And I look at my kids, one of my son's best friends is white.

And so, Zach has different ideas than many of the people who are much older than him, because he actually has a friend who doesn't look like him.

So you have people who have different experiences who are able to challenge ideas that we may have had about issues that aren't necessarily correct or true.

Because we're oftentimes focused on things that we've heard; these urban legends about things that aren't true, and can easily be corrected if we'll just step out of our comfort zone and interact with people who are different than us.

- [Dave] Yeah.

- And I think it's important to listen.

I think that's the first, easiest step to do, is to listen when someone is talking.

You know, believe them.

- Yes.

- Don't try to gaslight them.

- Yes.

- "Oh, you're just imagining that," and... No, just be compassionate, and acknowledge the humanity in one another; and that goes for everybody, - That's right.

- you know?

- Beautifully said.

- We oftentimes equivocate.

So if you tell me your lived experience, I've got to tell you my fish story, which, I've had just as many problems as you, instead of listening; I think Isabel Wilkerson calls it radical empathy.

- Yes.

- And radical empathy isn't you imagining, even going through it; radical empathy is simply listening.

- That's right.

- Without any preconceived notions, any thought.

You know, the Debbie Carter thought of this, my wife, oftentimes, she would say to me, "Michael, I don't need you to solve this.

I just need you to listen."

- Yeah.

- And that is what we oftentimes do.

We just don't listen to people's lived experience.

I mean, isn't it amazing, we tell people their lived experience.

That that didn't happen.

That's not true.

- Right.

- And that's their lived experience.

Instead of just listening, and sometimes not even comment; Just, "I hear you."

- Yeah.

- So, you know, Michael, I think your answer is an excellent transition to our next audience question.

So, Leonard from Tipp City asks us, "What can an or ordinary individual do?"

So how do we respond to him?

- Well, I just think, you know, again, seeing the humanity in all those around you; whether it's a different economic status; you could be two white individuals, one is very on the poverty line, the other one is well-to-do.

Not to judge that person and make assumptions, that, "Oh, okay, well, you're lazy, you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing."

I mean, it's just important to recognize that if somebody is protesting, or somebody wanna confront you about something, to hear them out.

To give them grace.

Because I think people just really wanna get along.

I know that sounds trite, but.. - That's the truth.

- I mean, it's really simple, I feel.

You know, it's like, "Well, how can I be compassionate?"

If you're a spiritual person, "How can I walk that out, and just be kind and let my light shine, and be slow to anger?"

You know, because I feel I've encountered all kinds of racism in my life, and people would be impatient with me and not hear me.

So listening, and compassion, and grace, I think are really big points.

- Yeah.

- And I think it's taking the inner work.

So this is inner work.

You watch the documentary, we have this discussion; the outer work is actionable.

And a lot of times we think things that are actionable have to be big things.

- Yes.

- And we have to just, you know, we do something huge.

Small things, listening to people, what we do with our children.

- Yes.

- Because that is so powerful, because they're coming up next; they're the next generation.

And if we pour into them the right things, they are gonna embody those things that're really important to help society.

So many of these things are very small.

Having conversations, I think it's asking questions.

We talk a lot in our home, and then, also Sinclair, about not making declarative statements about someone.

But ask people questions.

So you have this idea, so, ask them questions that, probably, are pretty hard for them to answer.

And I think the goal is to have people wrestle with themselves, and not wrestle with us.

Because, ultimately, they've gotta wrestle with themselves if we wanna move along.

Wrestling with us, that's human nature.

- Right.

- If someone attacks us, even when we're wrong, what do we do?

We defend ourselves.

But if we ask them questions about these tough things, whether it's redlining, or institutional racism, these things, and ask them questions, then have them deal with that themselves; and I think that's what we have to do.

But overall, just taking this inner work and finding ways to make it outer work, and doing even small things.

I think we get intimidated because we think we have to make this earth-shattering (chuckles) thing that we do; and it doesn't have to be that.

- And I'm gonna give a quick blueprint for the audience that's watching.

And you took the words out of my mind, which was ask, right?

But you might be at home saying, "Well, how do I ask?

How do I even get the conversation started?"

Promote the documentary that just came out.

So, you know, if I don't know a person, or even if I know a person really, really good, I might say, "Hey, I watched this documentary, is it okay if I send it to you?"

And then, once they watch it, "Hey, did you have a chance to watch it?"

Or, "When you watch it, I got questions that I wanna ask, but I didn't wanna be invasive, but I didn't want you to think that I was coming from a challenging or negative way, but I just have questions."

And if you watch this, and we can have some dialogue, maybe that's how you get the conversation started.

- And I think particularly for many white folks, it's also a matter of doing our own work too, and that education piece.

So I know the Redlining documentary, the website has lots of great resources that're available.

The YWCA has a 30-day challenge that they can do.

I mean, there's lots of this kinda education piece as well.

And just being mindful of where we're spending our money as well; and so, reinvesting in communities.

- That's right.

- So there's a lot of fantastic organizations in the Dayton area; Conscious Connect, and I mentioned Gem City Markets.

So using our dollars in that way too, to reinvest in the community.

- So this is a great place for us to transition to my favorite question of the night.

You know, this is a really meaty topic.

We're talking about things that have affected us for generations, and hopefully will not continue to affect us for generations.

What I really wanna hear from all of you as we close out, is what gives you hope as it comes to this topic?

- I think what gives me, well, I won't even say I think, I know what gives me hope is, before my grandfather passed, right around the beginning of 2020, we had a conversation about, and I don't even know how the conversation got to where it went, but he was Air Force.

Got outta Air Force after about, I think, 13 years, and worked at the base, had a really good job.

And the house he tried to purchase, over on Germantown, he couldn't get a loan here.

He had to go to Pittsburgh.

And so, him explaining that to me then, and then having this conversation now, is so empowering for me; because that same conversation I had with my grandfather, I've had it with my son.

And so, now my son understands kind of what my grandfather went through.

He sees how we're coming up, and the things that we do, and how we do things.

And he'll have a wealth of knowledge to continue to pass, not only to his family, but have these conversations with his friends, and let that information sharing just spread.

- Right.

- And I think, again, educating the youth, and allowing them to have access to this information early, is so critical; that they're not like myself, and learning about this at a high level, at the age of 42.

- Right.

- Right.

Right.

- So I think that is one of the most critical takeaways from me.

- Well said.

- I have to agree with you.

My daughter, she's 10; and I have these conversations with her, because it's just integral into my life, and I really want, and she's biracial.

So, you know, I want her to understand the history of the country.

And I feel that we have a lot of hope in the young people.

I feel that, just looking at the number of people who protested in 2020, - Yeah.

- and just how diverse it was, it's encouraging, because that's how we will move progress forward.

We can't do it in a vacuum.

We need everybody - That's right.

- to get invested.

And the idea that, you know, once you educate people to understand that we all have skin in this game, it's not just, oh, reparations for one group of people.

No, we're a tapestry.

- That's right.

- We're woven together; and we rise together, we fall together.

- That's right.

Well said.

- Well said.

- I think mine is, it's kinda weird.

Because I look at this fight against CRT, and the information that we're, and what gives me hope- - What is CT?

Can you explain - Oh, I'm sorry, just a minute, yeah.

- critical race theory, which people claim is taught in K-12, which it's not; that talks about systemic racism and racist institutions, and how that impacts us today.

Well, the fight against that, let's not mistake that the angst over it, people say, "Well, we don't want white children to feel guilty."

That's not what it's about.

- No.

- What it's about is, these people who fight it know that young children will know that it's wrong.

- That's right.

- And they will hold people accountable.

- That's right.

- And that's what I feel hopeful about.

Because young people know right and wrong.

And this isn't a political party, it's a matter of right or wrong.

And that's my hope; because I see this more and more.

I have an exhibit on campus.

Most of the students who come to that exhibit are white.

And the conversations, the discussions, the hopefulness I have after they leave, - Yeah.

- is incredible.

So that is what I feel good about.

I think that the fear is young people know what this country should be, and can be, what it never has been.

- Right.

- Let's be clear.

It never has been - That's true.

- representative of all, or, but it can be.

And I'm hopeful that young people, I know your children, I have grandchildren, your children, that they, and others, will help us get there.

- That's powerful.

- Yeah.

I'll just say exactly the same thing, in terms of children, our kids, especially social media too.

So I know that it can be damaging to some extent, but also a great organizing tool, a way to share different kinds of stories.

So, you know, if we look about advances that've taken place in the Civil Rights Movement, oftentimes having photographic or video evidence has been absolutely critical in advancing these conversations.

- Yeah.

- And so, to some extent, the role of kids, but also social media too, can be a way of really democratizing some of these different kinds of conversations.

So I remain hopeful.

- Yeah.

I'll just say from my angle, you can't un-ring a bell.

And I think the more these conversations that we have, the more information that gets out there, the more knowledge is shared, the harder it is to go back, to pretend that we aren't in a situation where we can deny our history.

Because it really, it's only once we acknowledge the past that we can truly move forward.

So I'm very hopeful because of the conversations like this.

So, we'll wrap up with this question.

Any of you have any last thoughts?

Anything that you wanna get out there before we bid our audience goodnight?

- Well, I just hope that those who have screened the documentary this evening, and those who will screen it on Thursday, I hope that this will encourage them to dig a little deeper, to click on the resource page at ThinkTV, and what are these books?

You know, what are these maps?

Just to be curious, because knowledge is power.

- Knowledge is power.

Well said.

- And I just wanna say thank you to Selena, and Richard, and Gloria, and others who made this documentary possible.

So, really, just fantastic.

So thank you, Selena.

- [Selena] No, thank you.

- I would certainly second that.

What an amazing documentary.

And, to that point, to Selena, Jonathan, Michael and Leslie, I just wanna thank you all for sharing your knowledge with our community.

This has been really an amazing conversation, really edifying for me personally.

To all of you out there, you can watch the broadcast premier of the documentary this Thursday, February 24th, at 9:00 pm on ThinkTV, Channel 16, and CET Channel 48.

Be sure to check out additional resources on our website.

And as we close out tonight, I want to thank our lead sponsor, AES Ohio Foundation, as well as Fifth Third Bank, and US Bank for their support.

Finally, I wanna thank all of you for your time and your interest in this important topic.

From all of us here at ThinkTV and CET, have a great night.