On Story

[lounge music] [Narrator] "On Story" is brought to you in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, a Texas family providing innovative funding since 1979.

[waves] [kids screaming] [wind] [witch cackling] [sirens wail] [gunshots] [dripping] [suspenseful music] [telegraph beeping, typing] [piano gliss] From Austin Film Festival, this is "On Story," a look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators and filmmakers.

This week's "On Story," inside the writer's room, "Hacks."

- Them being both protagonists and antagonist is really central to the idea of "Hacks" and what we always try to do.

We always say neither Deborah nor Ava should be completely right or completely wrong.

We always want their conversations, especially when they dive into like a topic that is perhaps deeper to them both to have a point.

[paper crumples] [typing] [carriage returns, ding] - This week on "On Story," we're joined by comedian and writer, Jen Statsky, who will take us inside the writer's room of the hit comedy, "Hacks," from pitching the original concept to developing the rich relationship between the show's two conflicting protagonists.

[typewriter ding] So I guess I first want to start out by sincerely thanking you for what you've done to make successful, unlikable, foul-mouthed women be in vogue again.

[audience laughing] - You're [censored] welcome.

[laughing] Oh, thank you, thank you.

- So, I read, you have an unusual, I think, situation as far as the creative team for this show.

Maybe not unusual for this show, but you're a threesome.

- Yes, yes.

- And you all conceived of this idea together.

- Yes, "Hacks," I created with Paul W. Downs, who plays Jimmy on the show as well, and Lucia Aniello.

We all met doing comedy in New York in the, like, 2008 era through Upright Citizens Brigade Theater.

And we all met and just kind of naturally hit it off and they really hit it off, they got married.

[audience laughing] And but I stuck around and we have been writing together for a long time now, yeah.

- So this is a, I mean, I just am trying to imagine how you worked through this pitch.

And what kind of iterations did it go through to get to this, you know, kind of place where it is now, which is this two characters who are repellent almost to each other?

- Yeah.

Well, we, you know, when we came up with the idea it was 2015, and we had been coming off of an era where a lot of kind of male standups were getting shows.

Like, there was "Louie" and there was "Master of None," even though that wasn't Aziz playing a standup.

But, like, there were all these kind of resurgence of standup, shows led by standups, but very rarely were they female standups.

And the three of us just got to talking about women like, you know, everywhere from like Joan Rivers to Phyllis Diller to Susie Osman.

Like, just like incredibly hardworking, talented women who we adored and respected and owed so much to and how there hadn't really ever been a character study done of a female comedian like that.

And so we started talking about that and that was interesting to us, but it wasn't until we figured out the Ava angle and that lens as being what the show would really truly be about that it sort of took off.

- I tweeted a joke about that closeted senator who's sending his son to conversion therapy camp or whatever.

And everybody freaked out and then some [censored] people dug up some [censored] I said when I was like 20 years old and I lost my deal, and now no one will hire me, including you apparently.

So yeah, my life is pretty much ruined.

- Oh, your life is ruined.

Please, that sounds like a Tuesday for me.

Besides, you're just a writer.

No one cares.

- Well, actually, people really do care.

It's been a huge problem for me.

- We talked about, you know, kind of the attitude sometimes we would have towards certain female standups where, you know, like you kind of looked at what some of them did and maybe you weren't as deferential or realized how important what they did was for you at the time.

And in looking at it and really digging into it, it was like, oh yeah, they had to be so Teflon and so tough, and had to put up with so much so that we could get to the point where we are now as working female comedians.

And so we wanted to explore that very angle through the character of Ava.

- You've taken an interesting tact with it that you have these two women who they're both the protagonist and they're both the antagonist.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And I mean, it's non-traditional.

- Right.

- And in a way, I mean, I think that, you know, the explosive nature of their relationship and, you know, it's rich for material, but it could also have been risky as far as how an audience was going to perceive them.

And then you sort of take this extra step with it, which is the exploration of feminism, you know, from two completely different perspectives.

- I'm just wondering, like, don't you think you should have maybe reported him?

- Ugh.

Ira owned most of the good venues on the West Coast.

It was a real boys club.

I couldn't afford to burn that bridge.

- Oh, so you were just looking out for your own career then?

- What are you accusing me of?

- Nothing.

- I helped a lot of people.

I wasn't perfect, but I did what I could.

- Yeah, but then you got rich and famous.

You could have come after them then, and instead you just worked your way up the ladder and-- - Oh, God.

Now you're accusing me of being a ladder puller?

Please, just by getting up on that stage, I gave other women more than I ever had.

Forget the ladder, I built a marble [censored] staircase.

It's not my job to carry people up it.

- Them being both protagonists and antagonists is really central to the idea of "Hacks" and what we always try to do.

We always say neither Deborah nor Ava should be completely right or completely wrong.

We always want their conversations, especially when they dive into, like, a topic that is perhaps deeper to them both to have a point.

Because we felt, you know, I always say this, I think there's like a good and bad version of every show out there.

And I think the bad version of this show honestly, is one where, you know, from our perspective as maybe the millennial younger writers, we're kind of just like wagging our finger at an older person and saying like, "No, you're out of touch."

And like that's just not a very interesting show to watch.

And I think, if we hadn't made an effort to make sure they both had points worth making, it could have delved into that territory.

So that very thing you're saying is central to the show.

- You know, you have this relationship with them based on these moments where they're about to explode.

And then that sort of veneer shatters and they have these moments of humanity.

You know, it could be like Deborah's guilt over, you know, her friend, the comedian friend that she's screwed over.

- Yeah.

- Or Ava with her dad or whatever.

There's so many great examples of it.

- Hi, Mom.

- Oh.

I'm so sorry.

I can't believe I missed it.

- Oh, honey.

I'm sorry, I can't hang up right now.

I've been on hold for 40 minutes.

Was your flight okay?

- Yeah, it was fine.

- Hello, hello?

No, look, I just, I can't, I can't do this right now.

Can you do this?

- Yeah.

- Hello.

- No one's there.

No one's there right now, but when they get on, tell them that you need to cancel the baseball channels for the account of Dennis Daniels.

And the reason for the cancellation is that he's deceased.

- Mom, please.

The baseball channel, it's so late.

Can we please do this tomorrow?

- Tomorrow we have to call the cousins.

- We always want to be funny first.

That is like our number one thing.

But I think after that, we really want to be real.

We wanted to depict these women even though we can sometimes go very broad with like certain situations or things they do.

Someone's laughing, they're thinking of something broad.

And but like, you know, we want them to be real.

We want them to be real people.

We want you to feel genuine empathy when you watch them and be able to relate to them through experiences they've had.

And so I think it's really just about crafting moments, like you're saying, to give them a rich backstory that's like, oh yeah, these are real people, even though they're funny and even though Deborah Vance is a larger than life persona, they are real people first and foremost.

[typewriter ding] - I'd love to hear you talk about the pilot.

It is a surprising pilot.

- The pilot, once we wrote it, we again had lived with it for quite some time.

And I will say the thing that's interesting about the pilot is that they don't meet until the last scene of the show.

And you know, we did get some, you know, the studio was like, "Are you sure that you want to keep it like this?"

And it makes sense, like, this show lives or dies by the relationship between Deborah and Ava.

And so it's a little bit risky to not have them meet till that final scene.

And then the chemistry between them has to be so electric and you have to feel it so much that you're like, "Okay, I get it.

I get what this show is going forward."

- I flew all the way here on Spirit Airlines, even though I didn't want this job in the first place.

I mean, the last thing on earth I want to do is move to the desert to write some lame jokes for an old hack.

- I think you better leave.

- Yeah.

- Can I show you to the door or would you like to go back up the chimney?

- Oh, no, I know my way out.

By the way, so cool they let you move into a cheesecake factory.

- Oh, is that where you wait tables?

That seems like a better fit.

- Oh yeah, I agree you classist monster.

I'd rather slang bang bang chicken and shrimp all day than work here.

I mean, what is this, 50 tassels on one couch?

Even Liberace would think it's a bit much.

- Oh no, you're incorrect.

He actually loved it.

He did poppers on that couch in '85.

- But we really felt like the pilot, we wanted to craft it in a way that these women were at their lowest point, and they really, against all odds, would welcome each other into their lives.

And so it was important to us to set that up throughout the pilot.

But yeah, it's not a traditional pilot in that sense.

- So in the, like, how did you convey to the people that you were bringing on characters and characteristics?

Like, how you wanted these women to come across to the people you were bringing in who didn't have the benefit of your X-many years, five years of thinking about it in your head?

- Yeah.

I mean, I think the pilot we had written before any writers were hired or anyone else was hired.

We sold the pitch and so we wrote the pilot.

And so we were able to convey a lot of who they were through the page and people reading that and reading our pitch doc.

And Deborah, I will say, from day one, very clear who she was.

And we were so lucky to have Jean sign on pretty early in the process once we sold it.

Ava was much more of a challenge to figure out.

We knew who she was, but it was less clear than Deborah.

And it was, as we cast, and we saw probably over 500 people for the part, like, and because it was this tremendous order, we were like, oh, we have Jean Smart.

She embodies the tone of the show perfectly.

She is both really funny and also can be heartbreaking and dramatic.

And we wanted someone who could match that.

- There were a couple of moments in that first season and one I think was in particular where I finally sort of get a sense of Ava.

So it took a while to kind of understand her psychopathy.

[Jen and audience laugh] - Yeah.

- Deborah's was pretty right there out in the open.

And it was this moment, and I'd really love to hear more about how you all came up with this.

- Yeah.

- She's been left in the desert with a Rolls Royce and she has that moment, and we find out it's, the epiphany is to drive back to the-- - The pepper shaker.

- Antique dealer to get that pepper shaker.

And which was, you know, an incredible sort of set piece moment in a way.

- Sell me it.

I have nothing left to lose.

I'll do it.

- Put it down.

- Sell me it.

- You think you have nothing in common with Deborah Vance.

I know you're the same.

You're both psychotic [censored.]

- Three seconds to take the money or I'm gonna do it.

- Please think of the Obenchain-McMillan family.

- I don't give a [censored] about the Obenchain-McMillans.

They probably owned slaves.

[indistinct] One, two, three.

[doorbell rings] Here.

And no, there was no change.

- You look like hell.

- Yeah, I had a pretty hard day.

- I learned so much from her at that moment where you see her give her plea.

That was a, oh, like she's much more manipulative, deeper, more manipulative than we expected.

- Yeah.

That's the moment where, and the antique dealer does say like, "You're both psychotic bitches" [audience laughing] And that is the moment like many throughout the series of realizing the similarities between Deborah and Ava, and how they are sort of shadows of each other.

Like, you see in that moment she has some of that Deborah in her, certainly.

And she also, that episode, I think is a really important developmental part of Ava's character because the whole episode is Deborah calling her out for not working hard and reusing her old material.

And so like this moment where she's like, "No, [censored] that, I'm going back and I'm going to get this pepper shaker," is her throwing down and being like, I'm going to show Deborah that I can work as hard as she does.

And that is very important because Deborah, she has a lot of negative qualities, but her work ethic is a positive one.

She's an incredibly hard worker, and she really doesn't respect people who aren't hard workers.

And so that is a moment where Ava goes and does that because she is saying, she's wanting to say to Deborah like, I see you and I can match you.

It was always very intentional that she would start at the point she starts and be kind of, you know, a little bit high on her own supply and bought into the like, LA-Hollywood world and care more about that.

And then would gradually learn the value of hard work through Deborah.

Which was interesting because I think it's an interesting lesson in crafting a character because at the beginning of the show, I think a lot of people were kind of put off by Ava.

They didn't have a lot of like, grace for her and, but it was intentional.

She was supposed to be bratty and a little bit, you know, of a slacker, and caring too much about the wrong things and we wanted her to evolve through her relationship with Deborah.

You know, it was always funny, before we did the, did like cast the show, we, amongst ourselves, and perhaps this reveals our particular attitudes, but we were like, are people not going to like Deborah because she's like a wealth hoarding, like, you know, rich person.

And then you cast Jean Smart and you're like, oh, she could shoot someone, and it wouldn't matter.

Like, no one's ever told me they don't like Deborah.

And I'm like, she hits Ava in season one.

She physically slaps her.

But like it's, you know, the power also of casting.

Like, I really think Jean has something magnetic about her that you are, like, on board for her to do anything.

And that's the brilliance of her playing this part is she injects so much humanity and empathy into Deborah.

- You know, I think this is a, to me, a really great.

It seemed like it was great craft happening in your writer's room, trying to weave those things back in, in a way they would be even more meaningful when, you know, even though they were funny when we saw them, but now more meaningful than just funny.

- There's many things that are laid in at the beginning of seasons that then, you know, even at the beginning of season three, when we're following Deborah through Caesar's Palace and she walks by a statue of Caesar and then only to be stabbed in the back at the end of season three.

Like, there's lots of things like that that are baked into the writing and that we're trying to.

You know, we feel really lucky because like the people who watch our show are so smart and like appreciate it on a level that we really feel seen and lucky.

There's so much out there that in, like, attention economy way, like, you know, to earn someone's time feels like an even bigger deal now.

And so we want to make the show worth people's time.

[typewriter ding] - The juggling of tone, and I still do very much think of it as a comedy, and I don't really think of it as a drama, but I guess it's noted as a comedy, dramatic comedy or whatever you-- - Yeah, we're I mean, we're comedy, but yeah, some people use the word dramedy.

- Yeah.

But there are just moments in there that, you know, like the episode where there's the car scene and she's telling her you're just like me and you're as cruel as I am.

- Yeah.

- You know, and that, you know, when you go from what was just a funny moment to something more than quite serious, you know?

And there's a number of those moments.

So how do you juggle that tone?

How do you know when you've gone too far, you know?

- Yeah, yeah.

We're constantly just monitoring it.

And it's hard to say, like we all just feel it in our gut when it doesn't feel like our show.

You know, you're tweaking.

You know, there was a, in this way, like the season three finale, we have a very funny scene where Paul Downs as Jimmy rushes onto the airplane to stop Meg Stalter from going to Greece and quitting.

And that scene is so funny, but it used to be post this giant fight scene that Ava and Deborah had in Deborah's living room when Ava confronts her about betraying her and taking away the head writer job.

- I'm not asking for the business or the world to be fair.

I am asking for you to treat me fairly because you owe me that.

- Stop crying.

This is just the way it is.

You get your foot in the door so you can prove you can do it.

And then if you want to make a change, fine.

I cannot give them any excuse.

This show has to be bulletproof.

It has to work.

I've lost way too much for it not to.

- And you're okay with losing me too?

- I'm willing to.

- And when we, it was always written that way.

It was shot that way, it was assembled that way in the edit.

And then we were watching in the edit, I was like, I am so shook by how intense and brutal that scene in the living room is with Ava and Deborah.

Like, I can't then switch back my comedy brain to laugh at the plane scene because it's just too much of a tonal jump.

And so we ended up rearranging things and moving it to happen before that and we had to like cut the end because it then didn't make sense.

And all that is to say like, it's a constant thing.

Like even in the edit, we are still going, Eh, are we pushing the tone of this too far in one direction?

[typewriter ding] - So I don't say this having ever known a Vegas mayor, but I would say you have picked the perfect Vegas mayor.

[audience laughing] - Yeah, Lauren Weedman, huh?

She is.

- Yeah.

- She's amazing.

Yeah, we are always so happy when Lauren Weedman, who plays her, comes to set.

It is such a fun character to write.

I mean, that's one of the joys of getting to make a show for four seasons now is getting to make all these side characters, you know, her and Poppy Liu's character, Kiki and you know, Ava's mom played by Jane Adams.

Like, just all these different people that can populate the world.

We feel really lucky.

And yeah, it's just like some of the funniest people that we've ever met we get to put on the show.

- I like you brought up Kiki, but that, like I sort of feel like she's the moral center of both women.

- I know I'm lucky to have a job, genuinely.

I do.

I just, I don't understand why she's making it so hard.

- Listen, Deborah's a hustler like me.

This dope shirt, this was her.

She gave it to me.

- Deborah had a glitter crop top.

- Uh-uh, no.

I had to cut off the sleeves and trim it.

Point is, it's ugly, but the quality is there.

So if you can't make it good, that is on you.

- And that was important to us too.

Like, that's also the challenge.

Like, you want to have secondary characters, but you want to make sure they're not just there to service your main characters.

You want to give them their own lives, and goals and stories as well.

And that is very hard when you only have a half hour.

- How do you think about how to use those characters in the episodes?

Because I would imagine you go back and forth with, we don't really, we don't have time for this person, so how do we use them at their greatest value?

- We have to, you know, because of the nature of how long the show is, we have to be pretty meticulous about not overindulging with anyone, and like, especially those side characters, like, there are moments where we'll have, you know, written a scene or something and we're like, we don't have the real estate to cut to this scene.

So it all has to be really important a story.

We're not one of those shows who you don't necessarily get like a frivolous scene that is just pure comedy.

Even though, you know, a scene between Robby Hoffman and Megan just doing pure comedy without any story would be wonderful to watch.

We just don't really do that because of the real estate.

So yeah, we have to be pretty sparing with it.

And I think that was something that both season three and four nicely have, which is that all of our characters are aligned with a common goal.

Season three, it was let's get Deborah this late night show.

Season four, it's let's make Deborah's late night show work.

And I find that Deborah is sort of the sun, which everything needs to orbit around.

And the more our side character's goals line up with hers, the more the show seems to like click and work.

- It feels like in all the episodes, it's like, why do these two women need each other?

Like, what do they, how did they get here?

But it's when, it's when they work together on jokes.

- Yeah.

- And those are-- I always want more of them, you know?

I always feel like, oh, maybe we'll get another one here.

Because it's so amazing how they work through the jokes.

- Yeah.

- Even in that very first episode, when she, you know, tries to, or she cuts her off in the car.

[energetic music] [tires screeching] [Ava] Oh my God.

- Sending your son to the woods with a bunch of other horny gay teens.

The only thing you're going to convert him to is from a top to a bottom.

- Okay?

- Now, that's a better joke.

- Oh my God, that's why you almost just killed me?

- Wait, wait, wait.

No, no, no, we keep it on the dad.

Senator Rogers has been in the closet so long, his wife keeps trying to donate him to Goodwill.

- Okay.

To be clear, these are all problematic.

What if it's something like Senator Rogers has been in the closet so long all his friends are mothballs?

- Mothballs.

[snap] Senator Rogers has been in the closet so long [censored] mothballs.

- Yeah, that's-- - Yeah, that's it.

That's it.

- Just a brilliant moment, but because it's so interactive, you know?

- Mm-hmm, yeah.

- It's like, all of a sudden I'm in here.

- I think that always we said Deborah and Ava would speak the same language, and that would be the language of jokes.

And whether that is them riffing on each other, making fun of each other when they first meet and then throughout the series, or figuring out jokes together, you know?

We really wanted this show to be like a love letter to the creative process and what it looks like to create art and work together.

And specifically, you know, the story of making the show is very much the story of the show.

It's a show made by three people and we are constantly having that exact type of dialogue.

I don't risk running them off the road to do it, but like we are very, like, we're constantly emailing each other.

We're constantly going like, oh, could it be this?

We felt it was not something we'd seen a lot of, that kind of creative process reflected on screen and especially not between two women.

And so it was important to us that that would be a very central part of their relationship and really, their love language.

[typewriter ding] [Narrator] You've been watching Inside the Writer's Room, "Hacks" on "On Story."

"On Story" is part of a growing number of programs in Austin Film Festival's On Story Project, that also includes the On Story radio program, podcast, book series, and the On Story archive, accessible through the Wittliff Collections at Texas State University.

To find out more about On Story and Austin Film Festival, visit onstory.tv or austinfilmfestival.com.

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