PBS News Hour

GEOFF BENNETT

Good evening, and welcome to the "NewsHour." After two days and six rounds of votes, the House of Representatives has still not elected a leader.

AMNA NAWAZ

Nearly two dozen Republicans have blocked Congressman Kevin McCarthy from taking the gavel, and there's no end in sight. Lisa Desjardins begins our coverage of the continued battle between party leaders and the chamber's hard-liners.

LISA DESJARDINS

Not quite chaos, but, for Republican leaders and for the House in general, certainly a frenzy of questions without answers.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH)

We will see what -- we will see what happens.

LISA DESJARDINS

As Kevin McCarthy continued to insist he would prevail as speaker of the House, despite being well sort of votes.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA)

It doesn't matter. I still have the most votes. So, we could go through every name in the conference and be at the end of the day, and we will be able to get there.

LISA DESJARDINS

Meanwhile, in the chamber, an opening prayer for the times. MARGARET KIBBEN, Chaplain,

U.S. House Of Representatives

Holy God, in these days of uncertainty and change, we turn to you, who are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

LISA DESJARDINS

And not good for McCarthy, Groundhog Day, with the words of yesterday...

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY)

I rise today to nominate the gentleman from California, Kevin McCarthy. REP. JIM JORDAN; I rise to nominate Kevin McCarthy for speaker of the House.

REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA)

I rise to nominate Kevin McCarthy.

LISA DESJARDINS

... on repeat today.

REP. MIKE GALLAGHER (R-WI)

I nominate Kevin McCarthy.

LISA DESJARDINS

And still no one saw even the shadow of a speaker.

CLERK

A speaker has not been elected.

LISA DESJARDINS

The same 20 Republicans kept up their opposition to McCarthy, a group strongly pro-Trump and anti-establishment.

REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX)

I seek to place a nomination for speaker.

LISA DESJARDINS

But this time offering up a new candidate, Florida Congressman Byron Donalds. Another change, McCarthy lost the support of Victoria Spartz, who voted present, helping the opposition. After that, the House floor was a sea of arbitration, some huddles aiming to persuade and others clear disputes. McCarthy got one big boost from former President Donald Trump, who told Punchbowl News that he backs McCarthy as speaker and that it's time to make a deal to get down to work. But, on the fifth ballot, prominent Trump supporter Lauren Boebert made a pointed suggestion.

REP. LAUREN BOEBERT (R-CO)

The president needs to tell Kevin McCarthy that, sir, you do not have the votes, and it's time to withdraw. With that, I yield. Thank you.

LISA DESJARDINS

McCarthy insists he will not. But, meantime, the House itself is paralyzed. There is no speaker, the signs above that office taken down. There are also no members. None can take the oath of office until a speaker is elected. House Democrats pointed out that committees are frozen, and they are stymied from some basic constituent work.

REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CA)

Good morning, everyone. This is a crisis of the Congress. And it's a crisis at the hands of the Republican dysfunction.

LISA DESJARDINS

President Biden weighed in while leaving the White House this morning. JOE BIDEN,

President of the United States

How do you think this looks to the rest of the world? I know you know international relations. This is not a good look. This is not a good thing. This is the United States of America, and I hope they get their act together.

LISA DESJARDINS

Republicans' fate is in their own hands, but none yet seem to know where or when this will end.

AMNA NAWAZ

And Lisa joins us now from Capitol Hill, where lawmakers will continue the search for a new speaker later tonight. Lisa, welcome. Good to see you. Just bring us up to speed. Now, you have been following every twist and every turn. Where do things stand right now?

LISA DESJARDINS

Here we are, Amna. In the next couple of hours, we expect the House to return from an adjournment it has taken. Now, what's going on behind closed doors is, Kevin McCarthy and his allies are trying to identify any of those 20 who have voted in opposition to him, 21, actually, who could be persuadable. But I will tell you, I have spoken to trusted Republican sources, some in and close to leadership, allies of Kevin McCarthy, who have told me just in the last half-hour on that they think, frankly, he will not be able to make up this gap. You think about it this way. He has to persuade more than a dozen of his members to change a vote in opposition to him. And none of them are budging. So, these allies, these sources I have talked to for a long time telling me, frankly, someone has got to tell Mr. McCarthy, that it is over or nearly over, a very blunt assessment that this may be ending. Momentum is almost gone for him. However, from those around McCarthy, they say they have some potential other plans. One may be trying to switch the threshold for a vote from a majority, which it is now, to a plurality, meaning whoever has the most number of votes. That, to my knowledge, has never happened before. It's untested, and is also a risk, because, as you know, McCarthy now is receiving fewer votes than the Democrat, Hakeem Jeffries.

AMNA NAWAZ

Lisa, you remember you mentioned the people opposed to Mr. McCarthy there. The numbers remain largely unchanged, right? What can you tell us about them? What is it that those members of that opposition want? And is there anyone else that they would back?

LISA DESJARDINS

There are two things happening with that group, as we have talked about. Let's first dive into the substance. This is a group that really wants to make it easier to make changes and propose ideas on the House floor. They're fiscal conservatives. So, among that, they would like to be able to propose amendments and get votes on amendments that cut spending at any time. They also would like to make sure there's no massive spending bills, only spend in bills by individual, refined topics. And they would like it so that any single member of the Republican Conference can challenge the speaker. That is something that many people believe would disrupt the chamber too much. But that's something that they say could be healthy. Overall, though, Amna, when you think about it, in terms of what's happening right now, more and more, the demand of this group is simply someone other than Kevin McCarthy. When they're asked exactly what they want, sometimes, they will name committee assignments, sometimes other specifics. But they have gotten so many of their demands already from Mr. McCarthy that it really is coming down mostly now to personality and a lack of trust in McCarthy himself.

AMNA NAWAZ

Lisa, we have to point out there are real world consequences to all of this unfolding in the way that it is. When you step back from the vote tallies and the negotiations, what is at stake here for the people, for the Americans who sent these lawmakers to Congress to do their jobs?

LISA DESJARDINS

Very serious consequences. In fact, just ahead in the next few weeks, the debt ceiling must be raised. That is one of the most profound fiscal cliffs that this country can ever approach. And if Republicans cannot agree on this speaker vote, which itself revolves around fiscal politics, there are real danger signs ahead. Speaking to Senate Republicans, they're quite concerned. But on a lower level, Amna, none of these folks are technically members of Congress right now. So there are issues. Most constituent service is happening. If you need a passport, they can still help you. But new members, I'm told, are having trouble with things as simple as opening up their new offices because they are not yet technically members of Congress.

AMNA NAWAZ

Lisa, no one knows Congress like you do. You have covered them for years. You have covered gridlock and dysfunction. Have you ever seen anything on this level before?

LISA DESJARDINS

This is -- I just can't stress enough how unprecedented -- I have seen so many unprecedented things in the last couple of years, but this is really near the top. Among the other things I want to impress upon people is, the rules of the House govern the spaces, the lives, our time here in this building, what you can wear. There are no House rules right now. And, among other things, this allowed me, a member of the press, to shoot this video today from my location, something I have never been able to show you. This is what it looks like from where I sit over the House chamber. I know that might not look all of that amazing, but I have never been able to show you that before, because we have never had this long of a period in between Congresses where I could just get permission to shoot, because there's no rules. And it is just a bizarre and quite amazing time.

AMNA NAWAZ

There are no rules. That is quite a statement. Lisa Desjardins reporting for us from Capitol Hill. For a Republican perspective now, Doug Heye has seen these leadership votes up close. He's the former communications director to House Majority Leader Eric Cantor and for the Republican National Committee. Doug, welcome. Good to see you. DOUG HEYE,

Republican Strategist

Good to be with you.

AMNA NAWAZ

So, here we are. Kevin McCarthy has failed to win the necessary votes in six rounds of voting. That number against him has remained largely unchanged. This is just a game of chicken now? It's a stalemate?

DOUG HEYE

It is a game of chicken. And what we see is, it's sort of similar in a way to the 2016 primaries towards the end, when it was clear that Donald Trump was most favored to win. And you saw a lot of candidates say, somebody needs to get out of that race. You need to get out, not me. So, you see House moderates, Republican moderates, flexing their muscles for the first time. We have heard about them flexing muscles before, but they really didn't even know where the gym is, vs. the 20 or so who are opposing McCarthy right now. And they're trying to see who will blink first. And it's just not clear.

AMNA NAWAZ

You in Lisa's reporting there sources telling her it may be time for McCarthy to get out soon. Do you think he should step back?

DOUG HEYE

I think, at this point, he's going to keep going and try and draw out opposition to see where folks are and who he can pull. We hear mixed things, some folks saying, well, maybe it's time to move on, others saying, well, it's encouraging, some of the things that I hear. What that says is, this is going to be a long time. And if we think it's been a long time just in two days, the Senate doesn't come back until January 23. And, in theory, aside from some of the very serious things that Congress does and needs to do, we're still playing with Monopoly money until that day.

AMNA NAWAZ

You think this could go until January 23?

DOUG HEYE

Absolutely. If nobody budges, we're going to keep going and going, unfortunately.

AMNA NAWAZ

So, when you talk about the real-world implications, as you heard Lisa just talking about them as well, there are very real things that impact millions of Americans. Is any of that resonating with the lawmakers who are saying we may hold out until January 23?

DOUG HEYE

Not yet, because we're still seeing the sideshow. And I think most voters don't realize the real-world, both policy and political implications. So, a good example is, as Lisa mentioned, there are no committees yet. What that means is, there's no House Intelligence Committee. The leadership of what would be that committee aren't getting the briefings that they need. The Senate are. Senate House Intel members are. The House aren't. That's very important stuff. And politically, for Republicans, Joe Biden that he was going to be a normalizer as a president, he's going to work in a bipartisan manner. So he was in Kentucky today with Mitch McConnell, as Republicans were demonstrating two months after the elections, where voters said, we don't like the direction of this Republican Party, saying, we can organize ourselves.

AMNA NAWAZ

You know, McCarthy banked on the idea that, by embracing President Trump, by accommodating this far right faction, he would secure the speakership, right? And he was wrong. Should he have seen this coming?

DOUG HEYE

Well, I think one of the things that's been surprising as a fallout from the elections is, Donald Trump's voice isn't as important as it was just two months ago. And so we saw Lauren Boebert, as Trumpy as it gets, saying, well, actually, Donald Trump needs to do this. And so we're seeing that there's a Trumpy part of the party that doesn't necessarily need Trump. That's why we are exactly where we are right now.

AMNA NAWAZ

If this gets sorted tomorrow or a week from now or January 23, what about the damage done? I mean, what does this say about this incoming House majority and how they will or won't be able to govern?

DOUG HEYE

That's the very real implication of all of this. Look, if we have had two days of real drama, there's some damage there. But it also depends on what still happens. If this gang of 20, so to speak -- and there are all kinds of bad nicknames about them -- if they are successful in this, it means whomever is speaker is going to have some handcuffs on them. And it starts with the fiscal cliff, obviously. But every part of governing that a House majority that Republicans we're excited to have in November becomes very real questions of whether or not they can operate.

AMNA NAWAZ

I know you say you don't believe McCarthy is stepping back now. When do you think the right time is for someone like Kevin McCarthy to step back? And who is the viable alternative? Who could step in and get those votes?

DOUG HEYE

It starts with whether or not he loses votes. So, if the next vote tonight or tomorrow, whatever it may be, he has 24 people voting for him or then 26 people, then writing is clear on the wall. Right now, we're still in the stalemate. After that, we don't know. We don't know if this same group of 20 is going to say that Steve Scalise is unacceptable. And, if that's the case, we're in the Wild West. And there are a lot of people who are talking about other members, but it's the Wild West. And no one knows precisely what's going to happen.

AMNA NAWAZ

I just have to ask, because you have seen a lot of fights like this.

DOUG HEYE

Not like this.

AMNA NAWAZ

Not like this. Where does this stand in sort of the pantheon of the battles that you have seen in -- within the Republican Party?

DOUG HEYE

No one has seen anything like this before. Obviously, we thought it was unprecedented with what Donald Trump did. But we have got to go back now to the mid-1800s to see an example like this. And when we talk about there hadn't been a second vote for speaker until - - since 1923, that means no one who is alive in America right now was working on that vote or really knows what it was like to go through it. This is uncharted territory.

AMNA NAWAZ

Uncharted territory, indeed. Doug Heye, thank you so much for being here.

DOUG HEYE

Thank you.