PBS News Hour

GEOFF BENNETT: Good evening.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On the "News Hour" tonight: The# Trump administration changes .. leadership for immigration operations in Minnesota## in response to public backlash from the# two fatal shootings of U.S.

citizens.

GEOFF BENNETT: Taiwan expresses# fears the U.S.

operation to## oust Venezuela's leader might# embolden China to invade.

AMNA NAWAZ: And we hear from the# whistle-blower who said DOGE mishandled## Americans' Social Security data, a claim# the Justice Department now admits is true.

CHUCK BORGES, Former Chief Data Officer,# Social Security Administration: That database## houses personal information, as I unde.. on all living and dead Americans.# So this is a real risk to everybody.

(BREAK) AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "News Hour."

President Trump said today# he's going to de-escalate## tensions amid his aggressive immigration# crackdown that's centered on Minneapolis.

GEOFF BENNETT: And toward that end,## the president said he wanted what he called# an hon.. of Alex Pretti and had his border czar, Tom# Homan, meet with state and local officials.

But at the same time, Mr.

Trump said during a trip# to Iowa today that the adjustments should not be## seen as a pullback.

And he again blamed Pretti# for carrying a gun, which was legally permitted.

As special correspondent Fred de Sam Lazaro# reports, skepticism of President Trump's changes## remains high in the Twin Cities, even after the# departure of Border Patrol Commander Greg Bovino.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Gregory Bovino's# final night in Minnesota was a loud## one.

Protesters turned up the volume outside what## they believed was Bovino's hotel.

Police# arrested some demonstrators at the scene.

Bovino leaves a community far more on edge# than it was when he arrived.

Under his command,## federal agents fatally shot another U.S.# citizen on Saturday, Alex Pretti.

It came## two weeks after Renee Good was killed by ICE# officers.

This week, Bovino claimed without## evidence that Pretti had been planning to# -- quote -- "massacre law enforcement."

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States:# We're doing a big investigation.

I want to see the## investigation.

I'm going to be watching over it.# I want a very honorable and honest investigation.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: In Washington today, PBS# News' Liz Landers asked President Trump about## his administration's characterization of Pretti,# who had a state permit to carry a firearm.

LIZ LANDERS: Do you think he was# acting as an assassin in Minneapolis?

DONALD TRUMP: Who's that?

LIZ LANDERS: Mr.

Pretti.

Your#.. DONALD TRUMP: No.

No.

Without being checked,## you can't have guns.

You can't# walk in with gun.. LIZ LANDERS: What about the Second Amendment?

DONALD TRUMP: Listen, you can't walk# in with guns.

You can't do that,## but it's just a very unfortunate incident.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Meantime, House Minority# Leader Hakeem Jeffries called on the president## to fire Homeland Security Secretary Kristi# Noem.

He appeared on MS NOW this afternoon.

REP.

HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY):# Kristi Noem is a despicable,## corrupt, pathological liar.

And in the# event that she is not terminated, we are## prepared to initiate impeachment proceedings# against her in the House of Representatives.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Back in Minneapolis, Bovino's# replacement, White House border czar Tom Homan,## arrived for meetings with Mayor# Jacob Frey and Governor Tim Walz.

Outside, the streets were# quieter than in recent days,## Minnesotans paying tribute to their neighbors.

CHRISTINA LEESON, Minneapolis,# Minnesota, Resident: You're## compelled to do some.. try to figure out how in the hell can# this keep happening to this community?

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: And out-of-towners# showing their support for the community## and skepticism of today's leadership change.

DAN CRAWFORD, Charlotte, North Carolina, Resident:# One is out.

There's another one coming in.

I## don't know if things are going to change or# not.

I doubt it, the way this year has gone.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: For the "PBS News Hour,"# I'm Fred de Sam Lazaro in the Twin Cities.

AMNA NAWAZ: For more on the Trump administration's# evolving response to the deadly shootings## in Minneapolis, we're joined now by our# White House correspondent, Liz Landers.

So, Liz, we saw in Fred's report there President## Trump told you he did not think Pretti# was an assassin.

Why is that significant?

LIZ LANDERS: It's notable because the# administration is changing their tone on## what happened in Minneapolis.

On Saturday,# within hours of this shooting happening,## White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller# took to social media to call Pretti an assassin.

And that was reposted by the vice president# of the United States.

So, within a few hours,## you had two top White House officials taking# this stance that he was an assassin.

Today,## we're seeing the president distancing# himself from that, saying that Pretti## and Renee Good's shootings were both# terrible.

He said: "I hate to see that."

And I also just want to note something else# about our exchange about handguns there and## the gun that Pretti was apparently carrying on# his person when that happened.

He was legally## permitted to have that gun.

And Minnesota has# open-carry policies there if you have a permit.

AMNA NAWAZ: We also know that# the homeland security secretary,## Kristi Noem, her top aide, Corey Lewandowski,## had a two-hour meeting last night at the# White House.

What do we know about that?

LIZ LANDERS: The New York Times reported that## they requested the meeting with the# president in the Oval Office with a## number of top White House officials to# talk about what happened in Minnesota.

And, apparently, the president is still backing# Noem.

He said today that he has confidence in her,## that she's not going to step down.# He said she's doing a very good job.

And I also want to add, Amna, that, within the# last few minutes, the Department of Homeland## Security has sent a note to Congress with more# information about what actually happened in## the Pretti shooting, saying that two federal# officers fired shots on Saturday.

That's new.

AMNA NAWAZ: We should also note that, during# all this criticism of ICE, the president is## in Iowa today.

He's giving a speech about the# economy.

Tell us what we should know about that.

LIZ LANDERS: The president and the White# House has wanted to refocus the message## on affordability.

We heard the White# House press secretary talking about that.

The president touting while he's been on the# ground in Iowa that gas prices are down there,## that his tax bill that passed over the# summer will be cutting taxes on tips,## Social Security, some of those other# signature issues that he's been discussing.

But this is also a political visit that he's# making.

Iowa has several key midterm races.## We're in a midterm election year now.

There# is an important Senate race there, governor's## race.

And there are even congressional# races, Like Congresswoman Miller-Meeks,## who won her seat by a mere 800 or# so votes in last year's election.

So there was some good old-fashioned campaigning# that he was doing on the ground there at a diner## earlier today, talking with Iowans, touting# some of his policies, also talking politics.

AMNA NAWAZ: All right, our# White House correspondent,## Liz Landers, beginning our coverage tonight.

Liz, thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: Minnesota is the latest flash# poin.. Border Patrol, and other agencies.

But it's# far from the only place being targeted.

Aggressive tactics have played# out in Chicago, Los Angeles,## New York, Washington, D.C., and now# Maine.

The protests, the clashes,## and the violence have raised urgent# questions about where this all leads.

In a recent piece for The Guardian, Claire# Finkelstein warns that what's unfolding in## Minneapolis closely mirrors a U.S.

civil# war simulation she oversaw in 2024.

Claire Finkelstein is the director# of the Center for Ethics and the## Rule of Law at the University of# Pennsylvania, and she joins us now.

Thank you for being with us.

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN, University of# Pennsylvania: Thanks for having me.

GEOFF BENNETT: And we should say# these simulations you .. weren't designed to predict a second civil# war, but were instead meant to stress-test## the system.

What motivated those exercises?# And what were you most worried about then?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: There were# really two things that motivated us.

And let's remember this was conducted in September# of 2024.

So it was before the presidential## election.

But we were worried.

We were worried# about what had happened on January 6, 2021.

We were also worried in the# wake of the immunity decision,## and what was that going to mean for potentially# a more unfettered Trump second term and whether## or not the rule of law would prevail and about the# tensions, potential tensions between the federal## government and state and local governments,# and what that could mean for the rule of law.

GEOFF BENNETT: When you look at# what's unfolding now in Minneapolis,## what feels uncomfortably# familiar from those simulations?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: Well, one# of the things that happened was,## we saw a spinning out of control.

And# I hope that's not what's happening in## Minneapolis, but a lot of what's been# happening is going in that direction.

We saw a spinning out of control of the# federal government.

We saw a refusal to## abide by court orders.

We saw the difficulty# that courts have in acting in time and## difficulty enforcing their orders.

So# we have seen all of that.

And then the## attempt to attack state officials# is something that we also looked at.

GEOFF BENNETT: Why are clashes# between state authority and## federal forces so much more destabilizing# than traditional or conventional unrest?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: Because traditional unrest is## really about the people.

It's# not about government, per se.

And, hopefully -- and this is what we have had# for most of our history -- you have the federal## government and the state governments working# together to try to get control over that unrest,## to de-escalate the situation, and# to work ideally in harmony together,## or at least to have a functional working# relationship and to partner together.

A lot of those partnerships are of long standing,# person-to-person relationships.

That was one of## the things we found in our tabletop exercise,# which is that those personal relationships## can be very effective in de-escalating# situations, sort of backdoor conversations.

But when you have the federal government# and the state government unable to work## together and giving different narratives, it's# profoundly confusing to people.

And, of course,## it will have a tendency to escalate violence, as# well as to really do damage to the rule of law.

GEOFF BENNETT: And you have said# that ICE is acting in ways that## even exceed what was imagined in your# simulations.

What stands out to you?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: We did not have federal# agents or federal troops openly defying## the law, firing on protesters, and,# frankly, killing them in cold blood.

We had imagined federal agents a little more# like what happened in Portland in 2020 or## even Philadelphia that summer, where agents# were going back and forth with protesters,## some of whom were violating the law, and# where federal agents were using harsh tactics,## but not to the point where they were# openly attacking American citizens and## actually quite clearly exceeding# rules for the use of force.

GEOFF BENNETT: And further applying# your insights to this moment,## the Department of Homeland Security,# its officers have fired shots during## enforcement arrests or at people protesting# their operations 16 times since July.

No officer has faced criminal charges# and the administration has not announced## disciplinary proceedings against any# of the officers or the agents involved.## So how should we understand this# moment, two American citizens shot## and killed by masked federal agents,# with no immediate accountability?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: So you said the# right word, which is accountability.

That is key.

Even if there is a deal struck -- and# I'm heartened by the fact that President Trump and## Governor Walz had a productive phone conversation,# but a deal is not enough.

There needs to be## accountability for the illegal actions of federal# agents, at least a full and fair investigation.

And state investigators need to be# in on that.

Beyond that, of course,## state investigators have the right to# conduct -- and prosecutors have the## right to conduct their own prosecution in# this situation.

Now, the federal government## will claim immunity or will claim that the# agents have at least qualified immunity.

But there's a lot to argue there legally.# And I think there's every reason to think## that those agents were going beyond# what they needed to do in order to## carry out their official duties, which# would vitiate the claims of immunity.

GEOFF BENNETT: In your simulation, at# what point does a democracy stop being## governed by law and start being governed by power?

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: If courts can't or# won't resolve the conflict between the## federal government and the state, then we# have a serious threat to our democracy.

We rely on courts.

And everybody should# want these disputes to be resolved in a## court of law and should commit themselves,# whether they like the decisions or not,## to abide by court decisions.# When that doesn't happen,## as to some extent happened in our scenario,# then you have got a real threat to democracy.

GEOFF BENNETT: Claire Finkelstein, director# of the Center for Ethics and the Rule of## Law at the University of Pennsylvania,# thank you for your time this evening.

CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN: Thanks for having me.

AMNA NAWAZ: In the day's other headlines:## At least 42 people are now reported to# have died as a result of last .. winter storm.

That includes three young# brothers in Texas who fell into an icy pond.

And forecasters are warning the temperatures# will remain well below normal for the Eastern## U.S.

in the coming days.

Crews in Nashville# are working around the clock to clear fallen## trees.

More than half-a-million customers# were without power today, mostly across the## South.

Many Americans are facing dangerously# cold temperatures even inside their homes.

NATHAN HOFFNER, Nashville Resident: I'm layered# up in my bed, two pairs of pants, socks, hoodie,## a cardigan.

So it's probably at least 40 -- at# least 30 to 40 degrees in my house right now, yes.

AMNA NAWAZ: As millions across# the country are still scraping## away and digging out from the ice and# snow, weather officials are warning of## another winter storm that could hit the# Southern and Eastern states this weekend.

TikTok has reached a settlement in a# landmark case related to allegations## of social media addiction.

The terms# of the deal were not disclosed.

But it## means TikTok will not be part of a trial# getting under way today in California,## where plaintiffs will argue that social media# companies intentionally tried to hook young users.

They're seeking monetary damages and want# companies to change the way they design## their platforms.

That trial will continue# against Facebook owner Meta and YouTube.## Snapchat was part of that case, but# reached its own settlement last week.

Federal investigators say that last year's# crash between an American Airlines jet and a## U.S.

Army helicopter over Washington, D.C.,# was -- quote -- "100 percent preventable."

MICHAEL GRAHAM, National Transportation# Safety Board: Any individual shortcomings## were set up for failure by# the systems around them.

AMNA NAWAZ: At a day long hearing today,## NTSB officials said air traffic controllers# were routinely overwhelmed and had grown## accustomed to close calls.

They also said# the jet's pilot was not alerted about the## helicopter and that the airspace over the# nation's capital was crowded that night.

NTSB Chairwoman Jennifer Homendy expressed## frustration that years of warnings to# reroute helicopter traffic were ignored.

JENNIFER HOMENDY, Chair, National# Transportation Safety Board: Yet,## we know, over time, concerns were raised# repeatedly, we.. however you want to put it, stuck in red tape# and bureaucracy of a very large organization.

AMNA NAWAZ: Just last week, the FAA# placed further limitations on planes## and helicopters sharing airspace# near Reagan National Airport.## All 67 people on board both# aircraft died in last year's crash.

Activists now say that more than 6,000 people# were killed in Iran's recent crackdown on## nationwide protests, and they warn that# number could rise.

The latest figures## come from a U.S.-based human rights group,# are nearly double the official death toll.

The protests began late last month amid widespread# anger over a weakening currency and rising prices.## Just today, Iran's real rial fell to an# all-time low against the U.S.

dollar.

And,## this week, a U.S.

aircraft carrier group# arrived in the Middle East to lead any## American military response to Iran's# bloody suppression of the protests.

Back in this country, the nation's# population is growing at a slower rate## because of President Trump's immigration# crackdown.

That's according to estimates## out today from the Census Bureau.# The U.S.

population grew by just 1.8## million people in the year that ended# last July to around 342 million people.

That amounts to just 0.5 percent growth,# which is the slowest pace since the early## days of the COVID pandemic.

The# bureau cites a historic decline## in net international migration as the# driving factor behind the decline.

UPS is planning to cut up to 30,000 jobs# this year and shut two dozen facilities## as part of a broader restructuring effort.# The package delivery company says it will## also continue its pivot away from Amazon# deliveries and focus on more profitable## areas of the business.

UPS shares ended# slightly higher following that news.

Elsewhere on Wall Street today, stocks ended# mixed ahead of tomorrow's rate decision by the## U.S.

Federal Reserve.

The Dow Jones industrial# average lost more than 400 points on the day.## The Nasdaq managed to gain more than 200# points.

The S&P 500 also ended higher.

And a Shakespearian family tragedy has# made BAFTA history.

Chloe Zhao's "Hamnet"## is now the most nominated film by a female# director in the history of the British Academy## film awards.

It's up for 11 nominations,# including best director for Zhao herself.

Meantime, the political thriller "One Battle After# Another" starring Leonardo DiCaprio leads the pack## with 14 nominations.

Ryan Coogler'S vampire# epic "Sinners" is close behind with 13 nods.## All three are nominated for best# film alongside "Marty Supreme"## and "Sentimental Value."

The winners will be# announced as ceremony in London next month.

And the world has been marking international# Holocaust Remembrance Day, a chance to honor## the millions killed by Nazi Germany during World# War II.

The U.N.

established the day more than two## decades ago to coincide with the anniversary# of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Today, survivors paid tributes at the Nazi# death camp 81 years since it was freed by## Soviet troops.

More than one million people# died there, mostly Jews.

While, in Germany,## Berlin's famous Brandenburg Gate was# lit up with the words "We remember,"## as flowers and wreaths were laid# at the city's Holocaust memorial.

Still to come on the "News Hour":## TikTok users claim they're being censored# after the change to U.S.

ownership;## a new book explores how Jackie Robinson and Paul# Robeson were pitted against each other during the## Red Scare; and a free diver gives her Brief# But Spectacular take on protecting the ocean.

GEOFF BENNETT: Just days after a group# of mainly American investors approved by## President Donald Trump took over control# of TikTok's U.S.

operations, some users## now say the app is censoring and limiting# their content, including posts and messages## about Jeffrey Epstein and the shooting deaths of# U.S.

citizens by federal agents in Minneapolis.

One content creator says his U.S.-based followers## couldn't access his post about# the shooting death of Renee Good.

MAN: So, this is how it should appear.# The latest video under my three pinned## videos is the ICE shooting analysis.# But this is what my page looks like,## according to people who message me.

And# even weirder, this is how it appears in## their watch history, a blank square.

The red# X-mark is just them pointing it out to me.

GEOFF BENNETT: And California# State Senator Scott Wiener said## TikTok wouldn't let him share this# post about ICE for several hours.

STATE SEN.

SCOTT WIENER (D-CA): I am advancing# a bill now to say that, in California,## it's not going to be just local and# state law enforcement who can be## sued if they violate your rights,# but federal agents can as well.

GEOFF BENNETT: California Governor Gavin# Newsom announced a new state investigation## to determine whether TikTok is violating state law# by censoring content critical of President Trump.

The company issued a statement today saying it# had suffered a cascading systems failure that## had caused multiple bugs on the platform after# a power outage at one of its U.S.

data centers.

For more, we're joined by tech journalist# Jacob Ward, host of "The Rip Current" podcast.

Welcome back to the "News Hour," Jacob.

JACOB WARD, Founder, The Rip Current:# Hey, Geoff.

Great to be with you.

GEOFF BENNETT: So you have# a lot of politically engaged## users now saying they feel censored# on TikTok, videos getting zero views,## their reach suddenly disappearing.

Based# on your reporting, what is going on here?

JACOB WARD: Well, I mean, I think, on the# one hand, it's important to just remember,## in the context of American# public discourse, right,## that the way we communicate with one another is# controlled by a handful of private companies.

And, as a result, we don't get to# know.

So, Geoff, we don't really know,## is there some sort of censorship going# on here?

Or is this, as TikTok's new## ownership says, a cascading failure that# originated from one of its data centers?

What I can say is that it seems as if every# kind of creator trying to post content,## whether they were cooks or makeup artists or# political content creators, none of them could## post for a while there.

And so it doesn't# seem like it's specifically aimed at it.

But if you're someone whose work is# consistently something that speaks## out against the government at the moment,# then you're going to feel particularly## persecuted.

But it seems that it sort of# went across everybody.

So at the moment,## this doesn't feel like it was an# intentional piece of censorship.

I think this ownership group is too# newly in charge to make that kind of## move.

But that's not to be confused# with the idea that they couldn't do## that.

I think the capability of doing so# is incredibly powerful and worth watching.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, let's talk more about# that, because people point to Elon Musk's## takeover of Twitter, now X, as an example of# how ownership can reshape a platform's ideology.

So, given how this deal came# together and who approved it,## is TikTok vulnerable to that same kind of shift?

JACOB WARD: Yes, well, Musk, right,# rewrote the rules of what any of## us expect as to how ownership of a major# communications platform would work, right?

And so you're absolutely right to bring# him up because he really sort of, like,## changed the change the game.

And now we're in# a world where close allies of the president## of the United States now are co-owners of this# incredibly powerful and influential platform.

And what they have bought from this Chinese# consortium and sort of in partnership with## this Chinese consortium is a very sophisticated# system for censoring anything you want.

Because## this thing had its origins in China, it# has incredible capabilities to detect## in real time whether you're saying# things it doesn't want you to say.

I have been in the position of making# reference to the Nazis during World War## II.

And the word Nazi can get you kicked# off of a livestream or get the reach of## your post put away.

So it's very easy to do# so.

I don't think it's happening right now,## but if in future they decided to do what Musk# decided to do, they would have every kind of## controls available to them to pull that off,# because that is exactly how TikTok is built.

GEOFF BENNETT: And TikTok recently updated its## terms of service.

So what should# users of this platform understand?

JACOB WARD: Yes, in many ways, they have# just sort of rewritten a more broad set of## language for capabilities that the# platform seems to have had before.

But, for instance, they're saying that they# can much more precisely track your location.## You can turn that off in your device settings# on your phone.

They also say that they will## be able to follow you elsewhere when you# are elsewhere off of the platform.

They## can send advertising out to get you.

So# that's something you can also turn off.

But all of this, I think we should remember,# is pretty standard-issue for the surveillance## capitalist world we are in currently.

All# of these platforms are trying to do the## same kind of stuff.

Just this is a more explicitly# spelled-out thing in the terms of services, Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: And, separately, Jacob TikTok# has reached a settlement to avoid being involved## in this landmark social media addiction# trial.

What more should we know about that?

JACOB WARD: That is such an incredibly big deal# in my world, that I have been waiting for this## trial to start because of the incredible amount of# documentation that has come out already in this.

And so TikTok and Snap, the maker of Snapchat,# those two have settled, which leaves Google,## YouTube and Meta, which is Facebook# and Instagram.

And incredible stuff## is already coming out that shows not# only did these companies deeply value## the business -- the business value of kids# was an enormous thing for these companies.

And they were aware of harms to kids for years# and years and years without necessarily acting## on them.

The companies, of course, say that# they are always trying to make improvements.## But the discovery we are seeing here is# going to give us a view into how social## media has worked and worked especially on the# minds of children for many years here, Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: Jacob Ward, host of "The# Rip Current" podcast, always a pleasure.

JACOB WARD: Appreciate it, Geoff.

AMNA NAWAZ: China removed its# top army general last weekend## in what many analysts see as a move to# cement loyalty to President Xi Jinping.

GEOFF BENNETT: It is rattling Taiwan# and one of its islands, Kinmen,## that is much closer to China than Taiwan,# amid already heightened fears that the U.S.## capture of Nicolas Maduro could embolden# China to mimic the move against Taipei.

Special correspondent Patrick Fok has more.

PATRICK FOK: In the distance, Xiamen, part# of mainland China.

On a day as clear as this,## you can see just how close it is.

This is# Kinmen, an archipelago administered by Taipei,## even though the main island of Taiwan lies# more than 100 miles away.

Its proximity to## the mainland has put it on the front# line of cross-strait confrontations.

These anti-landing spikes are remnants of its Cold## War defenses decades ago to prevent# an amphibious invasion by China.

TUNG SEN-PAO, Kinmen County Councillor# (through translator): Practically speaking,## its use is now limited.

Warfare has# changed cons.. this beach is a stark reminder of the battlefield.

PATRICK FOK: Tung Sen-Pao is a local# counselor.

He's lived here his whole life and,## like many people from Kinmen, is numb# to communist aggression.

Only weeks ago,## China launched some of its largest ever live-fire# war games, assimilating a blockade of Taiwan.

In recent years, Beijing's ramped up# its military muscle against the island,## which it considers its own, but# has stopped short of invading.## Since the shock capture of Venezuela's# leader, some believe that could change.

TUNG SEN-PAO (through translator): It's quite# possible that one day China might adopt a similar## approach or methodology to wage war, directly# targeting Taiwan's capital or presidential office.

PATRICK FOK: Washington's operation in# Caracas drew swift condemnation from China,## calling it a violation of international law.

SUN LEI, Deputy Permanent Chinese Representative#to ... Nations (through translator): The U.S.

has placed its ... multilateralism and military actions above## diplomatic efforts, posing a grave threat# to peace and security in Latin America,## the Caribbean and even internationally.

PATRICK FOK: But the rate has also drawn# comparisons at home in China on social media,## with many commentators saying it offers# a blueprint for Beijing to take Taiwan.## The prospect of a strike may# not be far from its sights.

2027 is widely cited by military analysts# and government officials as a critical## milestone for China's ambitions regarding# Taiwan.

U.S.

intelligence believes that's## when President Xi Jinping has# instructed Chinese forces to be## capable of what's termed a strategic# decisive victory over the island.

But there's another school of thought on# how the Trump administration's show of## force might make Beijing reassess# its designs on reunification.

Wang Ting-Yu is a Taiwan legislator and# believes America's decisive operation## in Venezuela may act as a deterrent.

He says,## if China had the ability to pull off something# similar, it would have done so a long time ago.

WANG TING-YU, Taiwanese Parliament# Member: China has intention.

They## are willing to do this from a long# time, they try to invade Taiwan,## annex Taiwan.

There is a gap between your# ambition, your intention and your ability.

PATRICK FOK: Still, China's military capabilities# are growing.

Over the past decade, average annual## spending on defenses has risen by about $100# billion.

Taiwan's government, meanwhile,## has proposed to beef up its own forces by nearly# $40 billion per year to counter the China threat.

But it's been blocked by the legislature,## controlled by an opposition that# favors closer ties with Beijing.

WANG TING-YU: We need to do more to enhance our# self-defense capability, to enhance multilateral## cooperation to deter China's ambition.

I think# that will be the true lesson we learn from this.

PATRICK FOK: In Kinmen, life goes on regardless.# By night, this group of islanders gathers to enjoy## the most American of pastimes, among them,# teachers, soldiers and ordinary workers,## with little concern about the powerful# geopolitical forces surrounding them.

CHEN SUI LIEN, Kinmen Resident (through# translator): What happens will happen.## There's nothing you can do.

Whatever# we say can't change the situation.

PATRICK FOK: Whatever their# fate, they hope this place## remains a baseball diamond and not a battlefield.

For the "PBS News Hour," I'm# Patrick Fok in Kinmen, Taiwan.

AMNA NAWAZ: ## The Social Security Administration# now says members of Elon Musk's DOGE## team working at the agency last year# accessed and shared sensitive data.

In a court filing earlier this month,# the Trump administration amended what## it had previously disclosed, writing that one# DOGE employee at SSA signed an agreement with## an unnamed political advocacy group to# analyze voter rolls to -- quote -- "find## evidence of voter fraud and to overturn# election results in certain states."

In another instance, a DOGE member shared# personally identifiable information of 1,000## people in an encrypted e-mail attachment,# though the government says they aren't sure## what specifically was shared or whether it# was accessed.

And SSA also said DOGE shared## data on third-party cloud servers that are --# quote -- "outside SSA's security protocols," so## the agency doesn't know what information was# shared or if it still exists on the server.

The latest disclosures seemed to confirm some# key concerns first raised in a whistle-blower## complaint last summer filed by# the agency's chief data officer.

That whistle-blower, Chuck# Borges, involuntarily resigned## from government in August and filed a# retaliation complaint late last year.

I spoke with him earlier# alongside his lawyer, Debra Katz.

Welcome to you both.

Thanks for being here.

DEBRA KATZ, Attorney for Chuck Borges: .. CHUCK BORGES, Former Chief Data Of.. AMNA NAWAZ: So, Chuck, before w.. details, these new details -- filing, rather, confirms what first you# shared when you came forward in## your whistle-blower complaint months ago.

What did you think when you saw all this,# especially after months of government denials?

CHUCK BORGES: I will be honest.# I was pretty disappointed.

This is a situation where the public loses.

My# disclosure essentially outlined three concerns## that I had.

The first was that DOGE employees had# inappropriate access to our data.

The second was## that they violated a temporary restraining# order and that the third was that they had## uploaded sensitive Social Security data to a# cloud server without adequate security controls.

In all three of those instances,# the public state is at risk.

So to## have validation of those first# two concerns is disappointing,## especially in light of the fact that these could# have been investigated and uncovered months ago.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, speaking to that timeline,# Debra, the court filing was on January 16.

There## were a number of corrections to the previous# testimony from agency officials.

What's your## understanding of why it took so long for the# government to correct those previous testimonies?

DEBRA KATZ: Because the government's not# telling us the truth.

I still don't think## we know the full story.

The allegations# that Mr.

Borges raised are quite serious.

And he raised them with the federal agency# that is responsible, Office of Special Counsel,## for investigating his disclosures.

And rather# than investigating it, they have kicked it to a## different agency.

In terms of his retaliation# claims, they haven't investigated at all.

So we have a situation in a very real sense# where the fox is guarding the henhouse.

AMNA NAWAZ: Let's talk about what's at stake here.

Chuck, you mentioned in some of the details of# what you came forward to share.

Broadly speaking.. what are the dangers as you see them of sharing# that kind of personal data on a cloud server?

CHUCK BORGES: Right.

So, Social Security data is your most#sensitive personal information.

It's the information that's on your birth# certificate.

So when you apply for a## mortgage and you have to answer security# questions, and it's what's your mother's## maiden name and what's your place of birth# and what's your father's middle name?

All of that information is held# resident at Social Security.## So to put that personally identifiable# information that can be used to propagate## identity theft, mortgage fraud, steal small# business loans, impersonate dead people into## an environment where it could be downloaded or# accessed inappropriately or stolen or shared,## it's a risk to literally every single living and# dead American's ability to have a daily life.

AMNA NAWAZ: And we should point out, we don't# know what was on the cloud server, correct?

CHUCK BORGES: So my disclosure pretty# specifically alleges that a database## called the Numident, which is the master# database of your personal information,## was uploaded to an AWS cloud environment.

Now, that is different from the court filing# last week, which resided around specific data## access for specific DOGE employees.

But if those# first two things that I alleged were correct,## I'm very concerned about the third one, especially# when, when you're normally protecting data, it## is very easy to produce documentation that shows# that the data has been safe and secure all along.

AMNA NAWAZ: Let me try to square some of# the information we have seen out there now.

CHUCK BORGES: Sure.

AMNA NAWAZ: Because, when you came forward, you warned the personal information of some# 300 million Americans could be at risk.

The## government and their filing says information# from 1,000 people was shared on e-mail.

Do you believe it#could be limited to just 1,000?

CHUCK BORGES: No.

AMNA NAWAZ: There's no way?

CHUCK BORGES: No.

AMNA NAWAZ: An.. CHUCK BORGES: So, again, my disclosure# outlined a pattern o.. This court filing validates the# first two pieces of that puzzle.## The third piece has not yet been validated# or refuted yet with any documentation.

But if the first two allegations are correct, I'm# very concerned about the third.

As far as the 300## million, that was just initial news reporting.# That database houses personal information,## as I understand it, on all living and dead# Americans.

So this is a real risk to everybody.

AMNA NAWAZ: Debra, there's also this other# piece of it we reported on where DOGE## employees were alleged to have secretly been# in contact with a political advocacy group,## part of an effort, as we know now, seeking voter# information and personal information there.

Those employees, we understand,## have now been referred to a federal watchdog# group to see i.. which would bar government employees from# using their job for political activity.

What## do you know about that probe?

Do you trust# that there will be accountability there?

DEBRA KATZ: I trust there will# be no accountability there.

In fact, when members of this administration have# been found guilty of violating the Hatch Act,## there's no consequences, none at all.

The# Hatch Act is -- there are no civil -- there## are no criminal penalties.

If this has# happened, these are criminal violations.

And they need to be fully investigated, and# these people need to be prosecuted.

And there## needs to be a complete, thorough investigation# to see the extent of this.

And I believe,## as Mr.

Borges just said, it's far greater than# the thousand documents that they acknowledge,## 1,000 people that they acknowledge are at risk.

AMNA NAWAZ: A thousand is a far cry from the# 300 million that you say would be at risk here.

So can Americans know, can they be#sure that their data has not been compromised?

CHUCK BORGES: They can't be# sure until the agency releases## documentation that proves or refutes# my allegations one way or the other.

To date, they have released zero.

As a matter# of fact, if I recall right, one of the people## involved in the investigation into my concerns# was one of the people named in the disclosure.

AMNA NAWAZ: We also need to disclose# here for our audience's benefit,## you are now running for office.

CHUCK BORGES: I am, correct.

AMNA NAWAZ: Correct?

You.. CHUCK BORGES: I am.

AMNA NAWAZ: Tell.. CHUCK BORGES: I had a very g.. that to do the right thing.

Now I see the# challenges we have at the federal level.

I## see them replicated at the local level.# I want to fix where I live.

I want to## be a leader that will do the right thing,# rather than what's politically expedient.

And I want to solve people's problems and# replace leadership that, quite frankly,## doesn't have the imagination, the initiative,# and in some cases the moral integrity to do it.

AMNA NAWAZ: We have talked to a number of# other whistle-blowers from various agencies## who talked about harassment, backlash after# they come forward.

Did you see any of that?## Do you have any message for people who# are still working in the government?

CHUCK BORGES: I do.

I did not receive any political retaliation.# There were some legal .. which I have never had a lawyer until now.# So I'm guessing that's pretty common.

But## I'm still here.

I'm still safe.

I'm# scared.

And I'm sure we're all scared.

But you can't let the fear control what you do.# If you know something, if you see something,## you have a duty to your fellow Americans to step# up and find a way to get the truth out there.## Let's foster a more transparent government.# Let's foster one that protects people.

So, if you're out there and you're scared,# reach out to me, reach out to others, reach## out to attorneys who can help you.

Let's make# sure the American people know what's going on.

AMNA NAWAZ: Chuck Borges here with his attorney,## Debra Katz, thank you both for# your time.

Really appreciate it.

DEBRA KATZ: Thank you.

CHUCK BORGES: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: And following our conversation this# afternoon, the Office of Special Counsel reached## out to Chuck Borges' attorney to gather more# information about his retaliation complaint.

GEOFF BENNETT: At the beginning of the Cold War in 1949,## baseball great Jackie Robinson appeared# before the House Un-American Activities## Committee to publicly disavow the comments# of another prominent Black American actor,## singer and activist Paul Robeson.

That fateful# testimony is the subject of a new book, "Kings## and Pawns: Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in# America," by journalist and author Howard Bryant.

I sat down with Bryant recently to# unpack the parallel lives of these## two trailblazing men and the forces that# ultimately pitted them against each other.

Howard Bryant, welcome back to the "News Hour."

HOWARD BRYANT, Author, "Kings and Pawns: Jackie# Robinson and Paul Robeson in America": Yes, thanks## for having me back.

GEOFF BENNETT: And let's start our conversation# with the key.. in front of the House un-American Activities# Committee in 1949.

Paul Robeson was this## outspoken activist with Soviet sympathies and# he had been quoted as saying -- it turned out## the quote was somewhat exaggerated, but he was# saying that Black Americans would never fight## for a country like the U.S.

against a country like# the Soviet Union that believed in their equality.

And this was Robeson's response# in front of the committee: JACKIE ROBINSON, Major League Baseball Player:# I have been asked to express my views on Paul## Robeson's statement in Paris, to the effect that# American Negroes would refuse to fight in any war## against Russia because we love Russia so much.# I haven't any comment to make, except that -- on## that statement, except that, if Mr.

Robeson# actually made it, it sounds very silly to me.

But he has a right to his personal# views.

And if he wants to sound silly## when he expresses them in public,# that's his business and not mine.

GEOFF BENNETT: So how did Jackie Robinson find# himself there pitted against Paul Robeson?

HOWARD BRYANT: Well, the biggest reason# he found himself pitted against Robeson## is from his employer, Branch Rickey,# the president of the Brooklyn Dodgers,## the man responsible for integrating# the big leagues with Robinson in 1947.

Jackie really felt a responsibility.

He felt# a loyalty to Rickey.

Rickey really implored## him to appear.

Jackie didn't want to do# it.

He felt like it was not his area.

He## was not that well-versed in the politics and# certainly not the politics of the Cold War.

But he also felt another responsibility,## which was in his memoir he would say that# he did not want the white allies who were## sympathetic to civil rights to abandon that# fight if they felt that Black citizens were## disloyal to the United States, and he felt# a sense of responsibility to ensure that.

GEOFF BENNETT: Paul Robeson,# we should remind folks,## was a giant of his time.

Is his# disappearance from popular memory,## is that a historical accident or# a deliberate act of forgetting?

HOWARD BRYANT: It's a 100 percent deliberate act.

And it shows the power of the Cold War and# the power of McCarthyism and so much of the## language that we're hearing today about# enemy of the people and the enemy within.## This is what it was back then.

And I think# there was no greater disqualifying word,## no greater weapon against an American citizen# than to call them a communist at that time.

And I think one of the things that I was really# trying to get at is the tension in the African## American community in this book, because so much# of the Black establishment felt that Robeson was## toxic, and they abandoned him as well and, in# doing that, really isolated him and set the stage## for the federal government and the rest of the# country to really turn its back on him as well.

It was certainly not an accident.# Time did some of it but really## it was deliberate because of# the tensions of that period.

GEOFF BENNETT: And how did Jackie Robinson come to## think of that testimony later in# his own life?

Did he regret it?

HOWARD BRYANT: Well, exactly, Geoff.

And I think that the -- regret is a hard# word for Jackie, because h.. just like Robeson was an athlete.

And it's# really hard to admit that he was wrong.## However, he and Paul Robeson both ended# up at the end of their lives quite## disillusioned at the lack of progress# in the country, and Jackie especially.

That's why the title is what it is.

The questions# of whether or not I did the right thing and## whether or not I was being used or manipulated# or whether Robeson was or whether we all were,## Rachel Robinson gave a great interview# in 1976 where she said that Jackie was## a patriot.

He was a citizen.

And it was# -- he was, my country, right or wrong.

But he did receive -- she said, we# got two bad pieces of advice that## we never really lived down.

One was Jackie# Robinson's support of Richard Nixon in the## 1960 presidential election.

And the other was# this testimony and -- against Robeson in 1949.

And so he didn't exactly say I# regret doing it, but he did say,## if asked to do it again, I would say no.# So I think that's as close as we got to it.

GEOFF BENNETT: You call this story an# exposed route on the beaten path of the## story of baseball integration.

What made you# want to write about this era and these men?

HOWARD BRYANT: Really,# embarrassment was the first.

I have been such a baseball fan for so# long and I have been reading about .. Robeson and Jackie Robinson.

And how many# times if you read baseball history that## Jackie Robinson testified against Paul# Robeson?

And then I just kept reading,## and I felt like the story was so# relevant to today.

And it's so important.

These two giants, how could it# be that you had -- at one point,## Paul Robeson was the most famous Black# man in the world and Jackie Robinson,## the most important Black athlete in the second# half of the 20th century.

How did this happen?## How did they find themselves in opposition?

What# were the forces that put them in this predicament?

And, to me, it was just so representative of this# question that African Americans are constantly## having and we have to this day about belonging# and about patriotism and about that twoness,## that ability to, one, be patriotic and feel like# you are part of this country while at the same## time living in at that time a segregated society# and all of the forces that sort of came to it.

It's a really important moment that I# just felt was completely underreported.

GEOFF BENNETT: Building on your point# about the parallels between that time## and our -- this current moment, what lessons# do you think this story has for us right now?

HOWARD BRYANT: I think the biggest lesson# to me when I think about -- especially when## I think about Paul Robeson, is the# power of the times that you live in.

The complacency that we have today is very,# very similar to the complacency that people## felt back then, that the country wouldn't go as# far, that we still believed in our institutions,## and the institutions would save us# and that common sense would prevail.

And you think about that, it sounds# very similar to how we are today,## that this is just the time and we will get# through it.

But the effect of the Cold War,## the effect of McCarthyism on Paul Robeson's life,# the United States did not allow him to leave the## country.

They refused to issue him a passport,# which was unconstitutional, and yet it happened.

There were all kinds of legal and extralegal# things that took place there that really## destroyed this man.

And, on the other# hand, when it came to Jackie Robinson,## we talk about April 15, 1947 as the# transformative moment that it was,## but we also don't talk about what it# did to Jackie Robinson as a person.

And so what I wanted to do was# sort of break from a little bit## of the mythology and dig into the# effects of what these pioneering## men have -- what they went through in real time# and the -- and, really, when I think about it,## how -- what is past is prologue.

So much# of what is happening then is happening now.

GEOFF BENNETT: The book is "Kings and Pawns:## Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America"# by journalist and author Howard Bryant.

Howard, always great to speak with you.

Thank you.

HOWARD BRYANT: Thank you again, Geoff.

AMNA NAWAZ: Free diver and ocean conservationist# Hanli Prinsloo has spent her life helping others## connect with the ocean and understand# our responsibility to care for it.

Here, she shares her Brief But Spectacular# take on protecting what we love.

HANLI PRINSLOO, Ocean Conservationist:# Something I love sharing with people## is that our bodies are 70 percent# water; 70 percent of the surface## of our planet is ocean.

Our tears have the# same salinity as the ocean.

We are water.

And I truly believe that we protect what we love# and that, when something we love is threatened, we## act.

I grew up on a horse farm outside Pretoria in# South Africa, and my childhood consisted of riding## horses bareback, climbing the tallest trees,# catching frogs, and listening to owls at night.

I had two rules, come home before# the sun sets and don't die.## Some of my earliest memories# are of wanting to be a mermaid,## exploring the dams on the farm, the rivers,# that stillness of being below the surface.

Free diving came to me later in my life.# Free diving is when you go down on one## breath and swim underwater holding your# breath.

In my mind, the penny dropped,## and I was like, that is what# I have been wanting to do.

There's a small village on the southeastern# cape of the Baja Peninsula called Cabo Pulmo,## where the jackfish that school there are# about this size and there are thousands## of them.

And when you get in the# water, you just see this ball of## silver underneath you.

And as you dive# down, it opens up and swallows you.

And suddenly you can't see the surface# of the water, you can't see around you,## you can't see the bottom, and you're surrounded# by this swirling, living cloud of fish.

It feels## like I've dived into the center of our world, of# our planet and become something other than myself.

The ocean has not been a place for# everyone in South Africa.

And in 2010,## I started the I Am Water# Ocean Conservation Foundation,## wanting to share the ocean with more than# the few who get to go into the water.

And for many of the young children# we work with, it is the first time## anybody in their extended family have# had this experience.

And it's empowering.## My dream is to instill in my children some of# the wildness I got to experience as a child,## whether it's the fascination and reverence# of an inchworm on a plant in our garden or## the absolute majesty of a kelp forest# soaring from the bottom to the surface.

I want them to always remember that they are wild.

My name is Hanli Prinsloo, and this is my Brief# But Spectacular take on protecting what we love.

AMNA NAWAZ: As always,## you can watch more Brief But .. GEOFF BENNETT: And that's the "News# Hour" for tonight.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On behalf of the entire "News Hour"# team, thank yo..