PBS News Hour

as the deadline for a government# shutdown quickly approaches.

To discuss that and more, we turn to the analysis# of Brooks and columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart,# associate editor for The Washington Post.

Gentlemen, welcome.

So nice to see you.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Good to see you.

(CROSSTALK) it's a good time to take a break.

But we are# awfully close to this How close do you think we really are?

DAVID BROOKS: Quite close.

Well, in time term there's a very high probability# that the government will shut down,## and we will be where we have been before.

A Congress who are not interested in practical# governance.

They're right that our deficits## are too big on the far right of the Republican# Party, but they have no strategy to get there.

And so they're basically a bunch of# nihilistic performance artists.

And... WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That looks# great on a business card.

(LAUGHTER) (LAUGHTER) And the core, simple truth should be, well, we# don't allow performance artists to have power.## And he's giving them a lot of power, because# he's refusing to or is unable or unwilling to## cut a deal with the Democrats and sort# of freeze out the people on the right.

And, in my view, he should take them on right now,## because his power will wane, and his fear is,# he will lose his job as speake his -- if he wants to keep the speaker job, he# will be weaker in two weeks.

He will be weaker## in three weeks, when everyone's upset about# a government shutdown, than he is right now.

And so, in my view, he should take them on# right now and try to cut some sort of deal or stick to the deal he cut# with Joe Biden, actually.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, David is describing the## idea that McCarthy still has# some agency in all of this.

But it seems like, in the last few weeks and days,## it seems like he's utterly# lost control of his own caucus JONATHAN CAPEHART: I mean, that's# assuming he had any control to Le t's not forget -- and it's now a mantra# -- it took 15 ballots for hi speaker's gavel to begin with.

But I agree# with David.

The speaker needs to exert some## control.

He has a five-seat -- five-seat# majority.

Get it.

Totally understand it.

Speaker Pelosi also had a similar# majority, and she got a lot done.## And why?

Because she exercised the power# of the office.

Speaker McCarthy absolutely## should tell this rump faction within# his majority to go stuff it.

I have## governing to do.

We have governing to do.# We can't allow the government to shut down.

And this is the fork in the road that the# speaker is going to -- is facing.

Unfortunately,## I have no confidence that the speaker will# choose -- will -- won't choose holding onto## the gavel versus showing real governance,# passing a C.R., getting these budget bills## passed.

He's going to keep that speaker's# gavel at all costs, and we will pay for it.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: David, you mentioned# this idea that the Republicans feel like## they have to now reach out to the# Democrats to try to get this done.

Do you think the Democrats will do that, and at# DA VID BROOKS: Well, I think the# price they should ask for is,## we already had -- did this deal.# Like, we d and McCarthy did this deal.

And so that's# our price.

Let's just And the problem for McCarthy is, there are# a lot of people, probably more than j fringe in his party, who really do care about# spending, and so they want somethin spending than the deal that Biden cut.

And,# to me, that's probably a political nonstarter.

And they have got to get serious.

If you really# want to cut spending, well, let's throw everyt on the table.

Let's throw tax cuts on the table.# Let's throw entitlements on the throw defense on the table.

But thinking you can# make some big spending reduct what they call nondefense discretionary# spending, that's just crowd cuckoo land.

So they're just not serious.

I sympathize with## the idea that our deficits are too# big, but WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Jonathan, do you think the# Democrats they want to see McCarthy twist in the wind more# than they want to see the government shut down?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, both are happening.# I mean, he's twisting in the wind right now,## and I firmly believe, as I sit here right now,# that the government is going to shut down.

And it's going to shut down because Speaker# McCarthy would be -- is going to be unwilling## to work with Democrats.

There is an easy solution# to this.

Work with Democrats, come up with a bill,## and then have that bill pass out of the House# by huge numbers, thereby sending a signal to the## Senate, but also to the rest of the country that# you know how to do the job you are entrusted with.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I want to turn to Ukraine.

We saw President Zelenskyy here again## pleading with America's leaders to come forward# with more aid.

And he's arguing th is war hinges on our morale, which he says# they have in plenty of supply, but Western aid.

And we saw that he really got a frosty reaction# from Republicans.

McCarthy wouldn't even## have his picture taken with him.

Is this# skepticism within the GOP really growing?

DAVID BROOKS: Tremendously, yes.

I mean, if you had tol they're the ones who are actually suffering, and# that Western Europe would be strongly support no wavering there, and that the wavering# would be in the U.S. and the Republican Par I probably wouldn't believe that.

But that's exactly where it people in the party who just don't want military,## don't want support.

They don't think That number is maybe doubling, maybe going# up by 50 percent.

Nobody knows exactly.

But it's significantly eroding.

And so# that's happening.

And at the same time,## on the Democratic side, there's a# big and I think important debate,## should we admit Ukraine into NATO?

And the hope# is that if in NATO, Putin will not want to attack a NATO# country, and that will prevent a forever war.

And so the two parties are going# in very different directions,## where the Republicans are just walking away.

And# so involved in Ukraine politically and give them# this alliance, so they can stand up to Putin.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: How do you see that unfolding?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, one, I want to# go back to the idea that the speaker of the House would not even allow himself to# be photographed with a wartime presiden And what I find so galling... WILLIAM BRANGHAM: What do you at JONATHAN CAPEHART: Fear of the far right in his# caucus tha along with a lot of other# things that they want to do.

That's what I think that's about.

It# all goes shutdown.

But the other thing that -- why# I find that move so galling, as speaker,## he is number three in line to the presidency,# which automatically makes him a statesman.

And so you have a wartime president coming# to this country begging for our help and our## continued support, and he won't even show him# that.

Thankfully, Senate Minority Leader Mitch## McConnell and Majority Leader Schumer and# the president showed him America's resolve.

But I'm with David.

I am astounded.

I'm old# enough to remember when the Republican Party## was about standing with allies, bolstering the# Western alliance, and particularly a country## where the battle is between democracy# and autocracy, and, if they lose,## then the whole enterprise, the whole experiment# that is democracy would be on its last leg.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, do# you see it that way as well?

Do## you think that -- as Jonathan is# descri so to speak, in the Republican Party# will prevail and keep America funding?

DAVID BROOKS: I think so.

But if you're Vladimir P I'm going to keep fighting, because they're# weakening over there.

And th well, I'm definitely going to keep# fighting until November of 2024,## because his best hope of victory is not anything# that happens on the battlefield in U It's Donald Trump getting elected, in which# case he's going to do very well in this wa And we should say, in both these issues tonight,# the budget deal and in Ukraine, Donald Trump is## the four-time indicted elephant in the room.

And# he's been saying, don't cut a deal.

And he's bee saying, we got to get out of Ukraine.

And the# rest of the Republicans are looking at him.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: David, before we# go, I want to ask you about this## tweet that you put out this week where# -- and we can put this up on screen.

You posted this tweet that showed a dinner# that you were having at an airport, and that## it cost $78.

And you wrote: "This is why the# American people think the economy is terrible."

You got roughed up a little bit online about this.## But I'm just curious more about what# you were trying DAVID BROOKS: Yes, well, first, it was -- it# started out hatched in my mind as a joke, becau if you looked at what I was eating, it was# bourbon and a very fattening hamburger and fries.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right.

A delicious dinner.

DAVID BROOKS: ...

I can' (LAUGHTER) DAVID BROOKS: Bu was that it made it seem like I was oblivious# to something that is blindingly th at an upper-middle-class# journalist having a bourbon## at an airport is a lot different than# a family living paycheck to An d when I'm getting sticker shock, it's like an# inconvenience.

When they're getting it's a disaster.

And so I was insensitive.# I screwed up.

I should not have written## that tweet.

I probably should# not write any tweets.

But... WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That's# advice we should all be taking.

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.

But I made a# Bu t the one point that is -- maybe can# yo u can experience inflation as a chart with# downward slope, inflation's coming down, but the## way we experience inflation day to day is as that# moment of sticker shock.

You're in the grocery## store.

You're at the gas station, and, suddenly,# it costs something way more than you anticipated.

And for people who are less fortunate than I am,## that is a disaster.

And so we have to understand# why we say inflati for people living and seeing those sticker# shock moments, it doesn't feel that way.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart,## so nice to see you both.

Have# a great weekend.

Thank you.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, William.

DA: