PBS News Hour

JUDY WOODRUFF

Meanwhile, the White House is facing questions about President Biden's statement yesterday that Russia's campaign in Ukraine was -- quote -- "genocide." Mr. Biden later clarified that that was his personal view and that lawyers would make the final determination. Nick Schifrin is back with a look at what exactly is meant by the term genocide and the impact of the president's words.

NICK SCHIFRIN

Since the Holocaust, the State Department has declared genocide on eight different occasions. That decision is made by the secretary of state, advised in part by the State Department's Office of the Legal Adviser. John Bellinger served in that role during the George W. Bush administration. He's now an adjunct senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and heads Arnold & Porter's international law practice. John Bellinger, welcome back to the "NewsHour."

Here's what President Biden said

"I called it a genocide because it's become clearer and clearer that Putin is just trying to wipe out the idea of being Ukrainian." If that is what Putin is doing, does that constitute genocide? JOHN B. BELLINGER III,

Former State Department Legal Adviser

Well, I think that's obviously about the most serious charge that can be leveled at a country. And the Russians didn't like it at all. Biden, as Judy said, said that he was speaking essentially from his heart as an American and wasn't making a formal determination at this point. But, obviously, the president's words have a lot of impact. At this point, the State Department will go through a process where the lawyers will apply the facts of what's actually going on to the law. The legal definition of genocide is an intent to destroy a racial, national, ethnic or religious group. And so the lawyers in the State Department will look at the intelligence information. They will look at things that Putin says and see if that satisfies that determination of the definition in the Genocide Convention.

NICK SCHIFRIN

Does Russia's killing large number of Ukrainians, forcibly transferring Ukrainian children from Ukraine into Russia, and Putin's denying that Ukraine is a country, does all of that add up, in your opinion, to an intent to destroy a national group?

JOHN B. BELLINGER

Well, every genocide is different. In general, we think that a genocide is basically killing everybody. And I don't think Putin is trying to kill every last (AUDIO GAP) right now. But what he does seem to be trying to do is to (AUDIO GAP) of being a Ukrainian and Ukraine as a separate country. So that will be really a new concept for the lawyers at the State Department (AUDIO GAP) that destroying a Ukraine as a separate identity and trying to fold them into Russia, is that genocide? I think that case can probably be made. But that's different from past determinations of genocide that have involved essentially killing an entire group.

NICK SCHIFRIN

If not genocide, do we know that Russia is committing war crimes or crimes against humanity?

JOHN B. BELLINGER

That, it looks very much like they are. Certainly, over the last eight weeks, the strikes on civilian targets (AUDIO GAP)

NICK SCHIFRIN

I think we might have lost John Bellinger. John, can you hear me? I think we might have lost John Bellinger.

JOHN B. BELLINGER

Yes, I'm back. Can you hear me now?

NICK SCHIFRIN

Sorry, John. Just finish that thought. So, basically, you're saying that, as far as we can tell, war crimes or crimes against humanity are being committed.

JOHN B. BELLINGER

That's what it looks like, including in the most recent killings of civilians in Bucha as well. And the International Criminal Court is investigating those war crimes claims and crimes against humanity right now in The Hague. And they now may be investigating possible allegations of genocide as well.

NICK SCHIFRIN

Today, French President Emmanuel Macron declined to use the word genocide. He said it could elevate tensions with Russia if he did. Instead, he said he prefers to use war crimes. Is that kind of division unhelpful when it comes to trying to find accountability for the crimes that Russia has committed?

JOHN B. BELLINGER

Well (AUDIO GAP) call a spade a spade here. Macron is trying to stay in the middle, as are a number of other countries. But when Putin is doing what he's doing to try to apparently wipe out Ukraine as a country, I don't think it's inappropriate to call it genocide. The Russians obviously didn't like it. But that's to be expected.

NICK SCHIFRIN

All right, we apologize for the technical problems, but, John Bellinger, always a pleasure. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

JOHN B. BELLINGER

Pleasure to be with you.