Mr Bates vs The Post Office

BATES: I think they knew that there was something wrong with my system.

You're inside some subpostmaster's Horizon, and he doesn't know.

We're ready to mount and fund an independent review.

ARBUTHNOT: Mr. Rutherford's organization, Second Sight, will be working for us, the MPs.

And therefore, indirectly, for you.

BOB: Jo, they had no right to take you to court at all.

(voice trembling): They destroyed our whole life for a lie?

This is all taking too long.

Alan, it's Paula Vennells.

Where do we go from here?

(brake engages, engine stops) (whirring, beeping) (exhales) (door chime rings) Sorry, Martin, I hit every red light on the way here, mate.

(music playing on earphones) You get later every day.

Oh, come on.

You don't get no more cheerful, pal.

Just need to get home.

DARREN: Oh, we all do, mate.

Long day?

They're all long days.

Any specials with these?

GIRO pouch, check pouch.

I'll have to come back for them.

Yep.

(lock turns) (sighing): Oh, God.

(car doors opening and closing) (men shouting) (shouting): Give us the money!

Give us the money!

Now give us the money!

(shouting continues) (Martin screams) (whimpering) Please!

No!

No, no, no!

Don't do this!

No!

No!

No!

(men shouting) MAN: Stay there!

Don't look at me!

(panting, moaning) MAN: Come on!

Come on!

(Martin yelping) MAN: Come on!

Hurry up!

MARTIN: Please!

MAN (grunting): Hurry up!

Go, go, go!

(punch lands, Martin screams) (gasping, moaning) MAN: Martin.

Let's talk about what happened.

The total loss to Post Office funds that day were �54,354.96.

Well, the police were there in five minutes.

They got most of it back.

This is a culpability interview, Martin.

You had the parcel hatch open, and the safe.

(continues): In accordance with Section 12, paragraph 18 of the subpostmasters' contracts... (door opens) GINA: Martin?

MAN: ...you're bound to take reasonable precautions to safeguard official cash and property.

(door closes) You are therefore contractually liable for an amount of... �7,500?

So now the armed robbery's our fault, too.

It wasn't the robbery that got me sacked.

Sacked?

What?

I'm already under investigation for the Horizon shortfalls, and now the robbery.

Three months' notice.

Oh, Martin.

For four years of every day opening that door waiting for... For what?

For the day to end.

(exhales) "Terminated for continued poor accounting performance, "not operating individual stock units correctly... (over phone): ...failure to make good losses in a timely manner."

They're just going on and on about the contract, and blaming Martin for everything, never accepting it's Horizon's fault.

How big did the shortfalls get?

(breath trembles) �61,000 altogether.

They've had our savings already.

And our parents'.

Alan, we've nothing left to give.

Okay.

Wow.

JO: Every time we meet, there's more of us.

There's your vegetarian ones.

Thank you.

And we're always ravenous.

Have we eaten Alan?

(laughs) That phone is a full-time job.

LEE: You know, the effects it had on the family was...

I mean, not just me and Lis, but, you know, the kids, we...

I mean, we had to move their schools, you know, because of the bullying, and... Then our daughter, Millie-Jo, she hit her teens, and... Just stopped eating.

It was anorexia.

I know they say, "Don't blame yourselves," but you do.

Yeah, of course, you do.

And nobody understands, do they?

Jo's always been very kind to us, hasn't she?

SAM: We call her "Mum."

JAS: Yeah.

(both chuckling) Well, if she's Mum, what's Alan?

Dad?

JAS (laughing): We don't call him "Dad."

Alan's the Godfather.

(Jas laughing) Shall we, uh, crack on?

Yeah.

The Don has spoken.

You all right?

(talking in background) (clears throat): The thing is, um, Alan, I'm not sure my computer was really the problem.

I just had endless power cuts.

36 of them in one day.

If you get a power cut in the middle of a transaction, poof!

No wonder it comes out wrong!

(chuckles) You see, um, my husband died, yeah, and I, I took over.

It was just before Horizon was installed.

But they didn't put the new electricity lines in properly, you see.

Oh, Pam, really?

Well, doesn't, doesn't it just go to show how absolutely bloody useless they can be about the simplest bloody things?

I told them, when they closed me down, I said... (crying): "If you can prove "that I, I stole that money, then send the police round.

Send them now."

Since then, I have not slept.

And I've been scared every waking moment, expecting that knock on the door.

I'm sorry, I'm just... (sobbing) You've got nothing to be sorry for, Pam.

PAM: I'm just so...

I'm just so angry.

I hate being so angry!

If I ever say I'm going to give this up, remind me about people like Pam.

So, to, uh, to recap, uh, my chat with Paula Vennells has resulted in a new investigation and mediation scheme, which will allow all of us to apply for the compensation we deserve.

Even people like me and Jo?

Yeah.

KAY: Alan's got their commitment here in black and white.

The Post Office says, "You may put your case through the mediation scheme "even if you've already received a police caution or been subject to a criminal prosecution or conviction."

If we got our money back... And our good names... An apology, even.

(exhales): Steady on.

JO: Well, just getting to the truth...

So, with your agreement, Kay and I will defend your interests every step of the way.

We will look into each individual case and fight our corner.

LEE: I know, but, Alan, do you trust 'em?

I mean, do we trust them, really?

(others murmuring) Well... (chuckles) Uh, they're putting money and effort into it, and, uh, it's coming from the top, so... Well, it, it's got to be worth a try.

(others murmuring) Shall we have a vote?

All those in favor.

Great.

GINA: 42 pence change.

There you go.

Book of six first-class stamps, please.

Thank you.

(softly): �3.60.

Sorry?

(loudly): �3.60.

(coins rattling in tray, door chime rings) (mouths) (door opens and closes, door chime rings) GINA: For a long time, he suspected the staff.

You know, of stealing from the tills.

The bad feeling that's still causing.

But if it wasn't them, then it had to be his fault, like he's stupid, which he isn't.

That was before-- before we knew about the Horizon thing.

Can I talk to him?

Well, he won't talk to me about it, even now.

(crying): It drives me mad.

I know he's got depression.

He's a proud father, and I think he thinks he's failed us.

Failed our family.

Gina...

Put him on.

Love?

It's Alan Bates.

(breathes deeply) He wants to talk to you.

Please, Martin.

(inhales) Martin?

Yes.

Listen, Martin.

You're not alone.

There's a lot of us.

And there's a new scheme you can apply for.

I'm going to send you the forms.

Martin, you might get some of your money back.

Yeah, um... (stammering): I can't talk to you right now.

Ma... People are trying to help here!

I'm so sorry, um...

He's just had, he's...

It's okay, Gina.

I'll send you the forms.

But get him to apply.

It's important.

(voice trembling): I'll try.

Bloody traffic.

Hi.

Oh, I, I'm a little late for a meeting with Susan Crichton.

(knocks): Bob.

Good to see you.

Susan's left us.

Why?

New times, new opportunities.

Moving forward, I'll be your main point of contact.

SUSAN (on voicemail): This is Susan Crichton.

I have left the Post Office.

Thank you for not leaving a message.

Bob?

We need to talk.

BOB: I'm not bloody signing up to this nonsense.

The Post Office want me to stay on, but it's pointless.

They've unilaterally taken away our access to the legal and prosecution files.

I can't investigate in a, a blindfold with both hands tied behind my back.

Alan, professionally, I just can't do it.

Bob, grit your teeth.

We can't do this without you.

I don't know why you're doing it at all.

You do know why.

I have to go to mediation because we can't afford to go to law.

You're an idiot to trust them, Alan.

I, I think they're mostly just a bunch of lying bastards.

And I think they're wasting your time and mine.

Bob, if you walk away now, you'll never find out which of those bastards is lying, what they knew, and when.

And you'll never find out what happens at the end of the story.

(chuckles) We must both be mad.

We are.

Pint?

GINA (voiceover): Big day tomorrow.

Your appeal against dismissal.

Martin?

Why don't I run you a bath?

It'll relax you.

(quietly): No, I'm all right-- I'm okay, I'm okay.

At least let me wash these clothes, hey?

(chuckling): You've been wearing them for days.

Don't you want to wash your hair, love?

No, no.

Stop.

For tomorrow.

Gina.

It's a big day.

All I'm saying is... Gina, Gina.

...we could just...

Please.

...make a little bit of an effort to look nice?

Gina, leave me alone, please.

(softly): Okay.

MARTIN (voiceover): We've been over this.

A parcel hatch is about that big, then you've got a sack of mail which is... You know how big a sack of mail is, yeah?

Once they were in with weapons, even if the safe was closed, what would you do if they threatened you and said, "Open the safe"?

HOST (on radio) I hope you're having a fabulous morning.

The time's now coming up to 6:20 a.m., and it's time for a little traffic update.

So, it looks like there's some congestion on the M62, and it's building up to the Runcorn turnoff... Martin?

(door closes) You're off early, love.

(radio continues, kettle hissing) HOST (on radio): On to the weather now... (radio continues, kettle hissing) (water boiling) (horn honks) (brakes squealing) (talking in background) Sorry.

WOMAN: Morning.

Where is he?

We don't know.

Martin?!

(engine stops) It's not working.

(sighs, mumbling): No, it's not the other one... Are you Mrs. Griffiths?

(police radio running, car door closes) Can we have a word in private?

(moaning): No.

(dialogue muted) BATES: Yes.

Okay.

No, I... Hmm, of course.

Thanks for letting me know.

He never regained consciousness.

Oh, God.

Gina's had to agree to switch off life support.

Oh, Alan.

Blood on their hands now.

(door opens) (door closes) (exhales) (exhales) (voice trembling): He had kids, Lee.

Well...

I expect he thought he was doing them a favor.

But you didn't ever... No-- no, I... No, not really.

(exhales) (swallowing) I'm sorry.

(crying) Sorry.

(crying): Oh, Lee.

(sobbing): Don't worry.

I didn't think about it-- look, I'm sorry.

(crying): Don't you ever, don't you ever do that.

LISA (voiceover): I can't have you feeling bad about this for the rest of your life.

I'm just, I could've just walked away, I...

I could've, I could've just shut my shop and just put us on a slow boat to China.

I could have done that.

And they'd have chased us all the way to China for that money, Lee.

They were never gonna let go.

(train passing) Hey.

I know you did it for us.

GINA: I can't think straight.

I don't know what to do.

It's really very good of you to come.

We're all so sorry for your loss.

(crying): It was four days before his notice ran out, and he still hadn't told the staff he'd been sacked.

(sniffles) It's, it's very hard.

And his appeal against being fined for the robbery, it didn't come to anything-- they didn't decide one way or the other.

It's stressful, obviously.

I used to get so cross with him, Angela.

I never did understand the problem, and he couldn't explain it.

Just every morning, going to work, and him saying he was desperate, he was really desperate.

Every morning, the same words.

"I hate it.

I can't bear it."

For years.

Can you imagine?

We are... We're going to do right by you, Gina.

You can rely on us.

(gasping softly) ANGELA: So, as we launch this mediation scheme, I can confirm our agreement that Martin Griffiths' case will be dealt with as a priority by this working group.

Now, you've, uh, also received a request from the family that any approaches to Gina should come through me.

Yes.

Yes, we are happy to agree to this, too.

BOB: Shall we declare this mediation scheme up and running?

Yes.

We have a long list of cases to examine, so let's get started.

BOB: Right, then, let's start with Martin.

First things first, Mr. Griffiths... INTERVIEWER (on radio): Profits falling, Mrs. Vennells.

Government subsidy on its way out.

That means a reckoning is on the horizon, does it not?

PAULA (on radio): It does, absolutely.

And the whole point about this investment program is to make sure we have models that are commercially sustainable.

(on radio): And my ambition...

Yes.

...would be that within three to four years' time...

Horizon.

...the Post Office doesn't need to take taxpayers' money to support those post offices that can be commercially profitable.

INTERVIEWER: So, Paula, if you don't mind me asking, you're C.E.O.

of the Post Office... (quietly): Ask her about Horizon.

...but you're also a priest in the Church of England.

Now, how do you combine those two roles?

Very good, thank you.

Good to see you.

Thank you very much.

Uh, just one thing.

This, um, Horizon business.

Anything in it?

I beg your pardon?

Horizon.

Some lurid allegations out there.

Well, uh... Well, after two-and-a-half years of investigations, it is now clear that the Horizon system is robust and works as it should.

Thank you.

PAULA (voiceover): "And God said to Solomon, "'Ask for whatever you want me to give you.'

"And Solomon said, "'Give your servant a discerning heart "'to govern your people and to distinguish "between right and wrong.'

"The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this.

"So God said to him, "'I will do what you have asked.

I will give you a wise and discerning heart.'"

PAM: I've been preparing for this mediation hearing for months.

You will remember that I asked to see this data, the A.R.Q.

data, from your system so that I could see if it matched up to my data from my till in my branch.

I kept everything, you see.

Now, you told me I wouldn't be capable of interpreting the A.R.Q.

data because I was a silly woman.

(chuckles) Or something.

Anyway, may I direct you to page seven?

(sighs) Now, you will clearly see a two-hour period when money alterations were being put in, but not by me, because I was serving customers.

There is no functionality in the Horizon system to remotely access branch terminals.

(laughs): I just proved there is.

(chuckles): Mrs. Stubbs, we have to tell you now that, at this mediation meeting, we are under no legal or moral obligation to do anything whatsoever.

And we are working on the principle of the contract, which says that if you lose money, you repay it.

Well...

I'm finished with this, actually.

I'm finished with you.

See, I think you're lying to me.

Mrs. Stubbs, calm down.

(voice rising): And I know you're patronizing me.

And I'm going to tell the whole world what you are like.

Well, may I remind you that you have signed a nondisclosure agreement.

I'll talk to anyone who will listen.

I'll stand up with all my papers, and I will prove you lied about this.

Mrs. Stubbs, this will have legal ramifications.

Oh, you want to take me to court?

I couldn't give a toss!

(murmuring) PAM (on phone, crying): The way they treat people.

They are despicable.

I have never, ever... (call breaking up) Pam?

Pam?

You're, you're breaking up.

Are they lying or, or just stupid?

(call disconnects) Hello?

For a while there, right at the start of mediation, you got close to trusting them, didn't you?

Maybe, despite every awful story they've heard, despite all the work we've done, they still don't get it.

They actually believe they're right.

ARBUTHNOT: I understand your impatience, of course I do, but Alan, really, four closely typed pages of complaint?

"Finding the truth is the last thing they're interested in"?

Well, that's been our experience of their investigation.

But will you at least acknowledge that, before writing to the minister, it might possibly have been useful to raise your concerns with Paula?

Martin Griffiths is dead.

Yes, I know.

(exhales): I, too, am concerned about the length of time mediation is taking, but Paula is very exercised...

I'm sorry, James, but... (chuckles): These mediation hearings are a joke.

ARBUTHNOT: Well, let's just ask Paula about that, shall we?

(bell ringing hour) ANGELA: No, we have not dragged our feet.

I've had 22 people working on this full-time for more than a year.

But not a single case finalized.

And now I am told that people are walking out of their mediation meetings.

Yes, it has taken longer than we would have liked.

As chief executive of the Post Office, I could not put this scheme in place and not do it properly.

The system and the people who work in our branches are too important for that.

Well, at least we can agree on that one.

ARBUTHNOT: Let's be clear.

We still have allegations here of miscarriage of justice.

Our lawyers advise the correct route for challenges to criminal prosecutions is via the Criminal Cases Review Commission...

Hold on.

Hold on, hold on.

PAULA: ...to the Appeal Court.

No, you made promises, Paula.

You promised me personally that my constituent Jo Hamilton, whom I believe was wrongly convicted... (voice rising): ...and with whom all of this started would be eligible for mediation!

(loudly): Our lawyers advise that no mediation scheme has the power to overturn a criminal conviction.

Paula, this is quite wrong.

You have broken your word to me.

And you have broken your word to the subpostmasters.

You have broken your word to Parliament.

ARBUTHNOT (on radio): The Post Office has broken its word to members of Parliament in so many different respects.

It may, of course, be that the trade of subpostmastering was infiltrated by a sudden rash of criminals.

I have met a lot of these people, and I personally do not believe it.

Frankly, I no longer trust the Post Office, and will not be negotiating with it further.

It has spent public money on a mediation scheme that it has set out to sabotage.

He says he can get some interest from the Select Committee.

Oh, not another talking shop.

Personally, I'm looking forward to it.

Probably more than Paula.

PAULA: Is it possible to access the system remotely or not?

I hope it is that we know it is not possible and that we're able to explain why that is.

I need to be able to say, "No, it is not possible, and we're sure of this because of x, x, x."

I need the facts.

(people talking in background) (quietly): That's Paula.

JO: She looks very smart.

Very corporate.

JO: Who's the other one?

Angela van den Bogerd.

The gruesome twosome.

Don't they have any blokes at the Post Office?

I have spent a lot over the past 12 months...

Yes!

Come on, Bob.

...requesting access to documents that have been challenged.

One issue we're looking into relates to Fujitsu's office in Bracknell.

Now, we first requested documents relating to that almost two years ago, and we have still not been provided with those documents.

Um, may I respond?

We did provide a year's worth of emails that Second Sight requested.

Unfortunately, those emails that were provided were for the wrong year.

That seems to me an amazing error.

Are there any other issues?

Well, probably most important would be full access to the legal and prosecution files held by the Post Office.

ZAHAWI: Paula, why don't you make those files available?

What's the problem?

Uh, the point I want to pick up first, if I may... No, no.

Answer my question.

Uh, it is the first time, personally, that I've heard that.

I'm happy to go away and have a look.

ZAHAWI: They've been told that under no circumstances could they be given those files.

Is that right or wrong?

I, I do not recall that.

No.

And you can piss right off.

ZAHAWI: That sounds to me like a shambles.

We are hearing from Bob that your organization has been obstructive to his independent work.

Is that right or wrong?

We have provided for every single case detailed, thorough, independent investigation... ZAHAWI: Let me stop you there.

We've just heard from Bob, who is independent, that you have not.

You are the head of the organization.

Will you provide the information?

Yes or no?

This is the first time that I have been asked for this information.

Yes or no?

I am not aware... Will you provide it?

Yes or no?

Give me a simple answer.

Yes or no!

PAULA: I am not prepared, on behalf of the Post Office, to give...

Right, right, right, I think I've got my answer.

You won't provide it.

No.

You have not got your answer.

You have not heard a yes or no.

I am simply saying, at the moment, I am not able to answer your question.

ZAHAWI: Honestly, I find it quite astonishing that you don't seem to know anything about an issue that is so politically and socially sensitive.

I know a huge amount about this.

I know the really important things about it.

ZAHAWI: You are the chief executive.

So the buck stops with you.

It does stop with me.

I am not denying at all that there are problems.

Of course, there are.

There are problems in any organization.

But this is about the reputation of the Post Office.

SUZANNE: What?

No, it's not, it's about people's lives, you moron!

(people talking in background) Slaughtered her.

Paula's face.

She had no idea what just happened.

Gina Griffiths has pulled out of the mediation scheme.

Well, that can't be right.

Alan would have known that.

Unless they went to her behind our backs.

I mean, what kind of people go back on a promise to a grieving widow?

GINA: It's not a huge amount of money.

Not, you know, lifechanging.

And, in return, you had to pull out of mediation.

I've got nothing coming in, Alan.

I was gonna have to sell the house just to live.

I imagine they also got you to sign a nondisclosure agreement, promising not to talk to anyone about Martin's case.

I shouldn't even be speaking to you.

They rang up, Alan.

They said it was a one-day offer.

If I didn't say yes by the end of the day, then...

I'm sorry.

It's all right, really.

I understand.

(murmuring) I don't blame you.

When Angela came to see me... Angela van den Bogerd came here?

She was nice, I thought.

Kind.

Now I don't know about any of them.

I think you just... We just cling to a notion, don't we?

That people can't be that bad.

(computer keys clicking) (phone ringing) (button beeps) ANGELA (on phone): Alan?

Hello, Angela.

(exhales): Good news.

No more reports for Bob to write, no more need for you to trail down to London, no more working-group meetings-- a new way forward.

You're closing down the mediation scheme.

(exhales): No, no, no.

No, no, no, not, not closing it down.

We're simplifying it.

We're taking it in-house.

We'll decide each case individually.

Closing it down.

After 18 months, it's in everyone's interest to speed things along now, don't you think?

Well, if that's what you want to do.

Oh!

Great.

Well, good to talk.

Bye, Alan.

Goodbye, Angela.

(button beeps, Angela exhales) (button beeps, phone clatters) (mouse clicks) (computer beeps) Oh, you sods.

Suzanne?

(cell phone ringing) (button beeps) BOB (on phone): I'm calling to tell you that I'm not allowed to talk to you anymore.

(door opens) Sacked again, eh?

That was quick.

Well, I considered pointing out that they're not allowed to just kick you and me off the working group.

Well, they're not allowed to go around ruining people's lives or breaking their promises.

(door closes) But since when did that ever stop them?

(chuckles) They're not just dropping us, Alan.

They're rubbing our noses in it.

They're making us destroy or return every single document they gave us.

The whole investigation.

Three years' work up in smoke.

I'm so sorry, Alan.

Nice knowing you, Bob.

Yeah.

Goodbye, Alan.

Cheers.

Love?

(sniffling) Oh, there you are.

They're going ahead-- without me, without Bob, without anyone fighting our members' corner.

I did look at paint charts, but, in the end, I think I just want white.

I'll get it done this weekend, um, help take my mind off it.

You what?

Yeah, so, um... (sighs) Tests came back positive.

(exhales) Hardly time to catch a cold, is there?

Let alone get cancer.

You'll outlive me.

Yep.

They'll operate.

It'll be fine.

I'll live.

I want to live.

I have to.

See some bastards go to prison.

(sniffs) (chuckles) I'll put the kettle on.

(people talking in background) (phone ringing in distance) Mmm.

Still here, then?

Tough old bird.

I've, uh...

I've been thinking.

Oh, God.

No, no.

If we can't find a lawyer by, I don't know, December, maybe it's time to call it a day.

You once said to me, "If I ever start talking about giving up..." That was then.

Don't you dare give up on account of me, Alan.

Oh, I, I'm not.

It's just, you know, 12 years is long enough to keep banging my head against a brick wall.

Don't you dare.

'Cause that would mean the last 12 years of my life meant nothing, too.

Okay.

New plan, then.

Oh, well, maybe you could have fought me a bit harder there.

What about if we all apply, all of us, to see everything the Post Office has got on us?

Horizon logs, investigation reports, accounts-- all of it.

Hm.

And, uh, and then, if we can see them... (dialogue fades) (children calling) JO: You have a lovely day, and don't dawdle when Mummy comes to pick you up.

JOSHUA: Are you gonna come in and help?

No, darling, not today.

Bye-bye, Joshua.

(kisses) Granny Jo loves you.

Bye!

You were only going to be helping them make paper hats.

Yeah, it's not the school's fault.

They can't let me be alone with the children when they know I've got a criminal record.

(exhales): Oh, God.

(school bell ringing) Come on, then.

Mum, will you stop it?

(TV playing) (Suzanne sniffs, exhales) (grunting) Here.

(sighs) This all right?

Yeah.

It's fine.

Love a toast-based meal.

(both chuckle) Are you all right?

Yeah.

Never was any good to me, was it?

All that defective equipment.

Never did manage to pop any babies out of it.

And, you know, when you think about the life we ended up having, maybe it's okay when children never came along.

(TV continues) I'm here-- sorry.

Ooh, I think this might be what I've been waiting for.

Exciting.

Signature there, please.

Cheers.

JO (on phone): Do they think we're idiots or what?

146 pages blacked out-- it's ridiculous.

Can you make any sense of exactly what's been redacted?

No, I can't tell, it's all black.

But I'll tell you what's definitely not there.

The memo from my investigator.

The one where he admitted there's no evidence against me.

The one that proves it's a miscarriage of justice.

(sighs): Ridiculous.

ARBUTHNOT (voiceover): The subpostmasters applied to see this information, as is their right, and the Post Office think they can just refuse to share it.

It's simply inexplicable.

NAUGHTIE: What the Post Office is saying is this, that there have been about half a million users of the Horizon system since it was introduced in 2001 involved in Post Office business, and that only 150 people have applied to the mediation scheme for events spanning more than a decade.

The Post Office is saying that the idea that there is widespread unfairness is simply not true.

Well, I would disagree.

These are people who have been pillars of the community, who've had their reputations dragged through the mud, who, who've been sent to prison, some of them.

And I understand that at least one has committed suicide.

And, Mrs. Hamilton, you believe that you have done nothing wrong.

I have done nothing wrong.

(on radio): I did not take a penny from the Post Office.

But unfortunately, the contract, which runs to 114 pages...

Excuse me, could you just turn the radio up?

(volume increasing): ...which many of us...

Thanks.

...in the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance didn't receive a copy of, says quite clearly the postmaster is contractually responsible for the losses.

That's great.

NAUGHTIE: We did ask the Post Office for an interview.

No one was available.

BATES (on phone): Alan Bates.

HARTLEY (on phone): Hi, Alan.

My name's James Hartley, I'm a solicitor.

Yeah, I just heard the Radio 4 piece.

I, I think I can help.

BATES: I always say to lawyers we're fighting a war against an enemy owned by the British government, which means they have mighty forces and bottomless pockets funded by the taxpayer, while we're just skint little people.

(laughs) Well, uh, I specialize in contract law, and this contract is 114 pages of complete rubbish.

I only got the two-page version.

(chuckles): It's unfair, it's out of date-- it even, it even says you're not allowed to gamble on the premises.

Yeah, when we've got lottery terminals, yeah.

But, you know, we all signed it.

Or some version of it, so... Well, yes, but... (breathes deeply) A contract that is not properly understood by both parties is not necessarily legally binding.

Okay.

Look, I...

I think it may be possible to raise the money to fight them in court.

There are specialist funders who are willing to take the risk, but only if there are enough of you.

We had 130 applicants to the mediation scheme before the Post Office destroyed it.

Mmm.

Well, how many would you need?

(smacks lips): At least 500.

Well...

I can do that.

(rock music playing in car) (cell phone ringing) (music stops) BATES: Hello.

ROLL (on phone): Is that Alan Bates?

Yeah, who's this?

I worked at Fujitsu.

In technical support.

(call breaking up): I was gonna call you yesterday, but I wanted to make sure... (call breaking up) (loudly): Hang on, hang on-- you're breaking up.

I'm going to pull over.

Hello?

(sheep bleating in distance, car door opens) (car door closes) (cell phone ringing) Hello?

Sorry, I got cut off.

BATES (on phone): No, no!

I, I lost you.

I don't want anyone knowing I'm talking to you.

Of course, I understand.

But they're lying-- that's the point.

They say there's no remote access to branch accounts, but there was a whole room full of us inside Fujitsu, working overnights, doing thousands of corrections on Horizon while the postmasters slept.

Nobody's going to admit it, obviously.

Are you still there?

Yes-- sorry, uh, uh, just get, getting comfortable.

Please, go on.

We were just constantly firefighting: coding errors, bugs, data corruption.

Horizon was much worse than I thought.

It was shocking-- it needed scrapping, really.

It was hard... (audio fades) WENTWORTH: These deficits were most likely caused by you.

Promise me you'll see it through.

BATES: I haven't spent 20 years to pack up now and give the Post Office license to start destroying lives!

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