#MeToo, Now What?

-I was sexually assaulted.

-I was afraid to speak up.

-He grabbed me at work.

-What about due process?

-When you're a star, they let you do it.

-I need to keep my job, so I can't say anything.

-I was afraid to speak up.

-She's a liar.

-All women deserve to be heard.

-Open your eyes.

-What am I supposed to say?

-This has been happening for decades.

-This is "#MeToo, Now What?"

-- a new series examining sexual harassment in America.

ainab Salbi.

I have spent my life amplifying the voices of women who have been silenced and unheard.

The entertainment world was hit with an avalanche of allegations of sexual harassment and assault.

Men in power have fallen, but the toxic culture they created still stands.

Billions made objectifying and sexualizing women.

Have we all been complicit?

Do you think it's problematic some of the portrayal of women in music videos?

-It's entertainment to a certain extent.

-The images that we're seeing in the gaming world are always of a hyper-sexualized, female presence.

We give her very big red lips and her open mouth and those bedroom eyes and the erect nipples.

-Out of 28 girls, 24 got surgery, including myself.

It's like an army of girls, like a Barbie store.

-With me, Samhita Mukhopadhyay, newly named executive editor of Teen Vogue.

Madonna Badger, partner at advertising agency Badger & Winters.

And Byron Hurt, filmmaker and activist.

Now that the world is finally hearing women's grievance on sexual harassments and assault, shouldn't we also look at the culture we live in, that has objectified women?

Are we not all part of co-creating it?

Madonna, you called out what the advertising industry does in its treatment of women.

Let's take a look.

-I love giving [bleep] to sandwiches.

-I love sacrificing my dignity for a drink.

-I love sleeping with guys that don't know my name.

The pursuit of happiness... just as our forefathers wanted.

-I hope when my daughter grows up that she has friends just like these.

-The key to my heart -- a man that smells like a vagina.

-I'd sell my body for a burger.

-Yeah.

I think that the level at which the objectification of women's bodies is normalized is -- we don't even notice it anymore.

-I think sexism and misogyny is in the air that we breathe.

It's all around us.

It's in almost every institution in American culture.

And I think we ought not trivialize or marginalize the power that those images have on people, especially young people.

You can become quickly desensitized to them.

And you can walk down the street and you can see images of women who are being sexually objectified and not think twice about it.

-I think overall, as a society, we've forgotten that women are sexual beings.

The issue isn't our sexuality and -- you know, the issue is using us to s-- using our bodies as props in order to sell things.

-There are two separate issues.

There's a restricted image of beauty, and then there is -- sex is being used to sell products.

And I want to show the gaming industry, because it's fascinating.

-In Western culture, we have very distinctive ideas about what makes up a hero, and for the most part, our heroes are young and strong.

There are physical characteristics that show those features.

It's the broad shoulders and the narrow hips and the narrow waist.

Where things go different is we add this layer of sexuality on top of our female characters.

We give her very big red lips and her open mouth and those bedroom eyes and the erect nipples.

So if you go into a game as a male character playing a male, every female you come in contact with is physically demonstrating signals that say, "Hey, I'm ready for sex right now."

-Our children are seeing that.

You work with -- with a lot of boys and college men.

How is that impacting their behavior?

-It's making a big impact.

And these are women who are not real women.

They're highly sexualized, but they're also dehumanized.

And I think the impact is that it makes intimate relationships much more difficult and challenging for boys and men because they don't know how to reach a deeper level of intimacy because they don't know how to interact with real women who have real issues and, you know, who are -- who are human, right?

-I mean, it's not only the video games, from what I understand.

It's actually the porn industry, as well, where women are always subservient to the desires of men.

And so the dehumanization of women -- it's related to what we're seeing is she's in service to him.

-Right, and she's a prop.

-You have this opportunity to build a fantasy world?

Why is the fantasy world you're gonna build about women being subservient?

Like, there's no other fantasy world we could build that perhaps has a different type of role play?

It always comes down to subservience.

So, for me, the problem isn't so much that people are consuming pornography.

It's the type of pornography they're consuming and the age at which they're consuming it.

So, if there was some kind of standardization around it, so that you could watch pornography that's more focused on consent or is age appropriate, you know, or has a diversity of models and actresses and actors in it.

It's the system that they're made in and the types of images that you're seeing in them.

-And so that creates such a horrible culture, not only for the women that are a part of it, but for men, too, for boys, too.

And, you know, that college survey that went on and they asked young boys, if you could have sex with a young woman without her permission, would you do it?

And a high percentage said yes.

-That's scary.

-But then the same question was asked -- would you rape her?

And, of course, the numbers completely go down, because "rape" is a negative word.

So, the idea of, I think, porn culture and objectification, using women in this way, not only does it make women less than equal, it makes loving men, caring, sensitive men, less than equal.

-That's true.

Let's talk about social media.

Social media has enabled every individual to be part of the producing their own images and whatever they want to present.

Now, you use your Instagram account to portray images of yourselves in a provocative way.

-So, when I post provocative images on my Instagram, it feels empowering because it's me saying that I don't agree with being told that sexual repression is virtue.

When you're told so often that you're not allowed to be a sexual being, it feels like your own revolution to go against that.

People definitely harass me on social media.

They're like, "How can you be a feminist and be promoting women's empowerment if you're posting these photos?"

And it's that, when a woman is sexual, they're seen as just sexually available.

And that's the only value that they must have, even though I bring a lot to the table outside of my sexuality.

And I think men overall have tons of ways to express their sexuality, but are still seen as fully realized human beings.

-But what is the line between freedom of expression and between you're actually doing damage in how we are being socialized as humans, as women and as men?

How do you balance between the two?

-I think that young women especially aren't given enough credit for how much they navigate both, recognizing that they're being objectified and finding some empowerment in those moments.

You know, even if you look at her images, you'll see that they are -- they are empowering.

They are -- and whether you think they're empowering or not, they're sexual.

But she's looking straight on to the camera or she's not looking overly vulnerable or she's very clearly rooted in her body.

And I think that is very much the difference.

-But here's my thing.

A lot of my friends, who are mothers' and grandmothers' age, are uncomfortable with how their teenage daughters are carrying themselves in a very sexualized way.

And they're afraid, actually, to even bring it up to their teenage daughters.

Is this a generational disconnect or not?

-I mean, I think, when I was a teenager, if I had a camera in my hand 24 hours, 7 days a week, I would've taken naked picture of myself all the time, too.

I mean, half naked.

Whatever.

I mean, your exploring being a sexual being is not the same as being objectified.

You know, being objectified is being a prop, a part, or plastic beyond human achievability.

-But from a man's perspective, I have to say that it's very difficult and very challenging for me to make a determination about when a women is using her sexual agency and when that sexual agency is being informed by a much larger system of sexism, fully -- fully expressed -- -But that's not up to you.

It's not up to men to make that decision, you know?

I think that's where part of -- where the system breaks down.

-Right.

No.

And I totally -- I totally understand that.

You know, because we live in a rape culture and we live in a culture that is deeply sexist, the lines get very blurred very quickly, you know?

And there are a lot of men who -- they can't make the difference between the fantasy world and the real world.

-Right.

They need to work on that.

-Madonna, you made another video about how it's impacting our girls' images of beauty.

-Children.

-And children.

-What is a thigh gap?

-When you're standing straight up, there's like a gap in between your thighs.

Girls just don't want their thighs to touch.

-Nearly a quarter of a million teens had cosmetic surgery last year.

-No!

-The Kylie Jenner Challenge has gone viral.

Doctors warn it can cause a number of issues.

-Oh, my God.

-Oh, God.

-Oh, my God!

-We raise our little girls to view their bodies as projects to constantly be improved.

-Advertising often trivializes battering, sexual assault, and even murder.

-There's a societal standard that's put up in the media, and then women try to meet it, and then they get criticized.

Like, there's no winning.

-It increases doubt in your self-image and self-worth.

-It brings me down.

-Because it warps your idea of what's real.

-These images of women, they aren't real.

People don't actually look like that.

-So how do we stop harming women?

-Ohh.

I mean, I think the most important thing we can do is talk to young women and young men that, you know, how you look is not who you are.

It's not what you can do.

It's not how you're made.

-But is that enough?

I mean, I feel we all have these conversation, but then these images are bombarding us everywhere.

We can't put the arduous only on the individual responsibility.

We are products of our culture.

-Right.

-So don't we need to change the culture that leads to that?

-I mean, how do you change a culture that is, you know, multi, multi, multi-million dollars of plastic surgery -- -Well, then we need to look at the money.

-You know, I used to do stupid stuff like wrap my thighs up.

I used to wrap my whole body up in Saran wrap and, you know, try to lose weight.

I mean, it's been a part of our culture for a really long time.

-And we have to begin to challenge those systems in whatever way we can, right?

We have to do it through policy.

We have to do it through activism.

You know, we have to do it through our wallets and not supporting corporations that are, you know, contributing to this culture.

I mean, you're looking at someone who, 150 years ago, would've been a slave.

Right?

Okay.

There were people who resisted slavery.

There were abolitionists -- right?

-- white and black, who rose up, who fought against slavery -- right?

-- who did not accept it.

So, you know, we have examples of people who overcame huge systems, right?

All we have to do is follow their lead, and we have to use our voices and our platforms.

And the most courageous of us, the most intellectually honest of us, have to challenge these systems in a way that creates cultural change.

-Well said.

Very well said.

Yeah, that was.

-I would add to that.

I believe what makes it difficult now to overcome this highly pervasive system is that we are not unified in understanding that it is a pervasive and oppressive system.

You know, how do we actually stop this?

I do wonder how many of those images would be made if there was a woman at least sitting at the table saying, "Hey, maybe that's not the way that we should be marketing to women."

And, to me, another big strategy here is diversity.

And that's women and people of color in senior positions saying, "Absolutely not.

We are not gonna have that image."

And you will start to see that then filter down.

-That's true.

I interviewed some women in the advertising world, and this is what they said about the culture of advertising.

-In a client presentation with an airline company, I was presenting an idea where you start the commercial on a woman sitting on airline seats in her house.

And the head of the airline said, "Is she naked?"

If you, as a creative, ruin -- it was a pitch -- ruin a pitch, you will not be asked to pitch again, ever.

You will not be asked to work on high-stakes projects like that ever again.

So all eyes were on me.

How was I gonna handle this?

And I again just shrugged it off and said, "Do you want her to be?"

And he laughed.

So the tension was released from the room, we went on with the presentation, and then I was congratulated for how I handled that after the meeting.

In order to sort of make yourself available for those as a female, you had to try and act as male as you possibly could.

To get a seat at the table, you had to participate in gallows humor and pretend that any type of sort of advances or harassment didn't bother you.

If I let that bother me, they would kind of say, "Oh, you know, she's just -- she doesn't have the skin.

She's not cut out for it.

I wouldn't hire her."

-And that's consistent.

Consistently, women say the same thing across all sectors.

Financial sector, fashion, advertising.

-It's everywhere.

-And what would you advise her when she's in that presentation with the clients?

-As an advertising agency owner, I would have probably advised her to do that, you know -- to say exactly what she said and to try and get it out of the room and let it go.

You know, it is a horrible truth.

But in that moment, millions and millions and millions of dollars are at stake, you know?

Lots and lots of people's jobs.

So it's like -- it's easy to sit here at tables and talk nice, but the reality of it is, is that it -- when you're in a cold, hard situation like that, it makes it very difficult to answer the question any other way.

-Can I push back on that just slightly?

-Please do.

-I do think that it can be changed.

There had to be a man in that situation who knew that what that C.E.O.

was saying was wrong, who didn't say anything at all, right?

And who allowed the woman in the situation -- -It doesn't matter.

Madonna's saying, even if she was at the meeting, she would allow it to happen.

-Right.

Right.

-Yeah.

-But also enabled the C.E.O.

to place the woman in a very compromising situation, right?

So we need men to be courageous and to confront the other man when he says something like that.

-I think we need to be willing to pay the price.

-I mean, that, too.

-Really, we can talk all that we want to talk.

We need to be willing to pay a price for speaking out money-wise, sec-- Did you pay a price when you put these advertising campaigns?

-Yes.

-What was that price?

-I nearly went under.

All the people that would hire me, the fashion and beauty industry, you know, just completely walked away, wouldn't have anything to do with me anymore.

And, you know, one company came to me and wanted me to do stuff, and I had to say, "No," which was really, really hard because we were, you know, basically on our way under.

-I think that there are -- you have these kind of interpersonal moments, and then you have a moment where everyone in the industry is standing up and saying, "No."

And we are having that moment right now.

The publicity of the #MeToo movement -- it wasn't just one woman, right?

And all of those women in those interviews said, "I was afraid to come forward because everybody would ridicule me."

So it took this mass of women coming forward and a huge social-media campaign to really break through.

But now that we have broken through, that jackass C.E.O.

is probably still like that, but at least he's a little scared now.

-Exactly.

Exactly.

-[ Laughs ] -He's not saying that anymore.

-And I don't think that the onus should always fall on the woman, just like I don't think the onus should always fall on black people to fight racism.

-I agree.

-I think that men need to -- we need to sacrifice some things.

Put ourselves at risk.

Right?

We have to put our masculinity at risk.

We have to put our masculine credibility at risk by saying, "That's not cool" -- right -- "what you said, okay?"

That helps us shift the culture.

That helps to change the culture when men are no longer seen as manly if they make sexist comments like that.

-That's very true.

Here's what some men who work in the music industry told me.

So, you guys were part of Rick Ross' production.

And some of the lyrics that he was singing -- "Put Molly all in her champagne.

She ain't even know it.

I took her home, and I enjoyed it, and she ain't even know it."

I mean, this is like we're talking about date rape in here.

Were you aware in the process that this is the connection?

-That was about two albums prior to when we started working with him.

-But when you work on such things, do you make the connection, like, "Whoa, this is -- hey, guys, this is..." -Negative lyrics towards women have been in hip-hop for a very long time, almost since the beginning.

-I feel like it's not only just hip-hop.

I feel like entertainment overall, 'cause sex is a part of the culture.

It's been there.

-Especially in the beginning of like the music video big push of music videos, you know, those were the record labels making decisions.

You know, there was a moment in time where things kind of made a big divide, where there was this great conscious movement that was empowering women.

Then all of a sudden, there was a conscious divide to do the more like fear, the stuff you shouldn't say, you know, to promote not only that type of behavior towards women, but, also, you know, drug use and gang violence, especially with a high production value.

You needed money behind it.

-Intentional, let's put more money into these misogynistic shock value -- -It's the shock value.

-Yeah.

-They are choosing the option of doing nothing -- right?

-- and deflecting the issue onto others.

And I think that's part of the problem.

As if they hadn't -- they have no role in changing it or no role in confronting it and also that it just happened.

Like, somehow it just happened.

And it didn't just happen.

There were men in positions of power within the music industry who intentionally commodified female bodies in ways that they felt were going to be more profitable than other genres of hip-hop.

And what I'm saying is that there are men and women, but men who have the most of the power, right?

-In this industry, yes.

Yes.

-Who, at the top of the hierarchy, the top of the chain, who dictate the culture to the rest of the world -- not just America, but to world.

-That's very true.

-Yeah, and actually, Rick Ross, who I have trouble believing is personally disempowered, because he's been rich for a very long time now, and he said that the reason that he doesn't have any women on his label is because he's gonna want to have sex with them.

And that's why he doesn't have any women rappers on his label.

-That just goes to how crassly objectified the women in his world, his w-- That just goes to show you his world view.

-Madonna, do you ever regret being in positions in the advertising world from the '80s of producing some of these images that led to where we are today, or for the times that you have not spoken up?

-I used to really regret in the beginning, but I also think it's proof positive that you can be a woman and make the same sort of, you know, mistakes or create these same type of images.

So, you know, I was at Calvin Klein in the early '90s and did the Marky Mark campaigns and the Kate Moss campaigns, highly sexualized imagery.

And I had no idea that I was doing anything wrong.

-And this is not to justify, you know, any criticism we may have of the advertising industry or anything like that, but you do as a -- at the end of the day, we are working in corporate environments in the business world.

And you kind of have to make these everyday calculations of, like, "What's the hill that I'm going to die on?"

Right?

And because of women from your generation, women in my generation, even if they couldn't be radical feminists in every step of the way, that's why women in my generation have had a much easier ascent in the business world.

And I do -- and I can say this as a woman of color -- when I make these decisions, the consequences are harder for me, right?

I won't bounce back.

I may not get invested in if I decide to start my own business after.

"Oh, she's a troublemaker.

She's this."

And whereas, if you see especially, you know, in the tech world, in publishing, you know, men get many, many chances.

They continually get to fail up.

-That's the thing.

-Right.

-This is a turning moment.

-Mm-hmm.

-Hopefully, it's the turning moment.

How do we make sure that it doesn't get co-opted, this moment?

I mean, in Sports Illustrated's latest issue, they have naked women, but with writings that are about self-empowerment and self-power.

How do we make sure that we truly respect women and not objectify them and commodify the Time's Up movement?

-I think it's very complicated, and it's very difficult to do.

But I will say that the Sports Illustrated example is an interesting one because Aly Raisman decided to pose nude for Sports Illustrated right after coming forward about being sexually assaulted.

And I think that was a very -- like, that even made me uncomfortable in a way that I was not expecting, and I think does impact how we sexualize woman, what we think of as taboo.

She drew empowering messages on her body, and I do think that, while it is within the context of Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, which is kind of the Mecca of women's objectification, both in terms of just not being art, in my opinion, and being for a really specific audience, what is fascinating to me is her going into that space and saying, "I'm a woman athlete who is saying that I have experienced sexual abuse in some way, and you can look at my body, you can sexualize it if you want to, but I am making the decision to do this."

-So now what?

How do we make sure that this is a moment of change and not only a moment of talk?

-To change this culture, it really does have to start at the nucleus and go forward.

So, I went out and talked to as many people as I can about women, not objects, and, you know, created social media, did it all from my own pocket, and tried to make a difference.

And I think that's all we all can really do, is to understand and make a difference.

-And I want to thank Tarana Burke, who I know, for creating the #MeToo.

And I want to thank all of the women who have been marching and protesting and using their voice, because I have an 8-year-old daughter, and all of the women who are part of this movement, who are really shaking things up, they're making the world better and safer for my daughter.

-I do think young people are changing in how they consume a lot of this media and they just will demand better.

And I do think that we need to reform the advertising industry.

But I also believe that when you continue to push a different narrative and a different story, people start to change, and they start to see that.

And they start to develop empathy and compassion for a different world view.

And that's what I'm going to do.

-Fantastic.

Thank you, everyone.

What a pleasure.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-Next Tweet us at #MeTooOnPBS.

-To learn more about this program, please visit pbs.org/MeTooNowWhat.

This episode of "#MeToo, Now What?"

is available for download on iTunes.

Other episodes in the series are also available.

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