Announcer:

The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Robin Vos:

Look. We need to move on. The election in 2024 should not be about what occurred in 2020.

Frederica Freyberg:

Republicans deliver mixed messages as calls continue for a top election official to be impeached and off-year elections. Plus, a GOP debate foreshadow more of what’s to come in 2024.

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” the elections commission chair with his views on the political attacks against the commission’s administrator. A report on Wisconsin families with close connections to the war in Gaza. Results from the latest Marquette Law School poll. And the next from Wisconsin in Black and White: Health Divides. It’s “Here & Now” for November 10.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Assembly Speaker Robin Vos says we should stop obsessing about Wisconsin Elections Commission Administrator Meagan Wolfe. That’s even as fellow Republicans in the legislature continue to ramp up calls to impeach her. The elections commission chair Republican Don Millis is calling allegations against her a pack of lies and he’s angry newspapers and TV stations are making revenue of an advertisement showcasing those lies. Don Millis joins us now. Thanks very much for being here.

Don Millis:

My pleasure.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s hear a few seconds of that ad. It’s from the election denier who ran against Robin Vos.

TV announcer:

I am very worried about the fairness and security of our elections if Meagan Wolfe remains in charge of them.

Frederica Freyberg:

So the ad highlights what it says was her approval of illegal drop boxes, ballot harvesting and so called Zucker-bucks. Mr. Millis, why do you call these allegations out as demonstrably false?

Don Millis:

Well, with respect to the first two items, it wasn’t her choice. The election commission, unanimous bipartisan vote, approved the unstaffed drop boxes and also to the extent that ballot harvesting was permitted under that, it was part of the same thing. Administrator Wolfe was just carrying out those plans. With respect to the so-called Zucker-bucks, there’s nothing that state government could do because the courts have since determined that the local governments accepting those funds were perfectly legal. There was a lawsuit. The commission part of my — being on the commission voted to dismiss that complaint and that was confirmed. We know that because the legislature is now trying to amend the constitution to prohibit the use of such private funds, and I think there’s some merit to that, but blaming administrator Wolfe makes no sense because it wasn’t her call.

Frederica Freyberg:

So when you first saw this ad, what was your reaction?

Don Millis:

Well, I was surprised. I mean, you know, I’m not a journalist. I do have a journalism degree, and when I was in journalism school a long time ago, newspapers like the Milwaukee Journal, it was called the Journal then, were paragons of virtue. They never would have accepted ads like this. We’ve since seen that the media, when we have election deniers and when President Trump has made statements that the media believes are lies, they will run chyrons under his speeches, and all that and so it seems to be very hypocritical that the media would accept money and it’s certainly in the case of Journal Sentinel, run ads that they know are false because a month before they ran the ad, they had an article that pointed out that the allegations contained in that ad were false.

Frederica Freyberg:

Hmm. So meanwhile, the saga of trying to impeach Meagan Wolfe rolls on and ramps up. Do you want her to leave her post?

Don Millis:

I think at this point, you know, we’re getting on the eve of a very important and it’s going to be very contested election. I think that Speaker Vos has it right that this is not the time to be debating these issues. We have so many more important issues. The thing that’s frustrating to me is on Tuesday, the Assembly had, I think, a very good day. They voted on a number of things that would appeal to the base, that would appeal to independents, and the headlines were about impeaching Meagan Wolfe, when there’s just no chance that that’s going to happen because I don’t think there are enough votes in either house to accomplish that. And so it seems to me it’s a fool’s errand to go down that road because there simply are not the votes to do that, in my opinion.

Frederica Freyberg:

Would you replace her if it were not a fool’s errand?

Don Millis:

Well, you know, I think we have to think about — let’s put it this way. Politics is the art of the possible. I know that there are four votes on the commission to keep her, and so the only thing the commission could do right now, based on the court decisions, is that the commission could vote to remove her but you need four votes to do that. There are not four votes to do that. It doesn’t make sense to do that. It doesn’t make sense to change an administrator and go searching for a new administrator when, in 362 days or 361 days, we’re going to have an election that’s going to be pretty hotly contested in Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

If that vote were to come to pass on the commission, would you vote? Would you vote to replace her?

Don Millis:

I wouldn’t vote to replace her right now because I don’t think it makes sense to do so.

Frederica Freyberg:

But you might in the future?

Don Millis:

Well, you know, I’ve had discussions with administrator Wolfe about a variety of things. I think she’s generally doing a good job. I think the things that she has done are the things that have been said about her are totally false, but I’m not going to predict how things go in the future. A lot of this has to do with personal decisions that she has to make: the future of the staff and how do we build in a successor. I think it is important that in any agency like this that you have a plan for succession. I’ve had some private conversations with her about that. I’m not going to explo — I’m not going to divulge those, but right now, it makes no sense to talk about replacing her.

Frederica Freyberg:

Very briefly, how do you feel about Donald Trump reportedly pressuring Robin Vos to impeach Meagan Wolfe?

Don Millis:

Well, you know, again, I think that people are misled. If you really think that Meagan Wolfe was the reason why Donald Trump lost Wisconsin, then that’s just — that’s just — it’s just false. That’s not the reason why he didn’t prevail here. It had nothing to do with her. And so I don’t understand that. I think my guess is that he’s trying to appeal to a base so that he can continue to be in the news.

Frederica Freyberg:

Don Millis, thanks very much.

Don Millis:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Just over a month since the Hamas terrorist attack on Israel, Governor Tony Evers called on Congress to increase funds for securing places of worship as threats surge against Jewish and Muslim communities. As “Here & Now” reporter Aditi Debnath tells us, the war is personal and painful for the Wisconsin families you’re about to hear from.

Miryam Rosenzweig:

Every day they’re running into the bomb shelter.

Hashim Zaibak:

They send us a text message, “We’re still alive,” and that’s pretty much — that’s all we can ask for at this point.

Aditi Debnath:

These Wisconsin families have close connections to the war. Like Miryam Rosenzweig, whose pregnant sister and baby niece live in Israel.

Miryam Rosenzweig:

I asked her, How is the 2-year-old doing? She hears the siren and she turns and she looks and she knows that we’re going into the bomb shelter.

Hashim Zaibak:

You just have to follow the news every day.

Aditi Debnath:

Hashim Zaibak follows the news every day because as a native of Gaza, home to Hamas, he hopes to make sure his sister and other family there are still alive. Zaibak owns Hayat Pharmacy in Milwaukee and fearing anti-Palestinian backlash, hired a security guard to patrol his business.

Miryam Rosenzweig:

Golda Meir was the prime minister of Israel.

Aditi Debnath:

For Rosenzweig, president of the Milwaukee Jewish Federation, the vitriol cuts both ways.

Miryam Rosenzweig:

The hate that has been spewed in the last two weeks towards Jewish community, both as a community, individuals, in our schools, on our campuses has been horrific to watch. And the silence of the condemnation of it is deafening.

Aditi Debnath:

Hamas rained down horror on Israelis but still, Rosenzweig says support for Palestinian civilians is clear among members of her organization.

Miryam Rosenzweig:

Overwhelmingly, they believe in the right of Palestinian self-determination. What people are misunderstanding is that the fight isn’t with the Palestinian people. This war is about neutralizing Hamas.

Aditi Debnath:

But it’s about more than that, says UW-Madison Professor Samer Alatout.

Samer Alatout:

It’s not Hamas-Israeli war; it’s an Israeli war against the Palestinians that is, a part genocidal.

Aditi Debnath:

Alatout is a geopolitical expert of the region and a native of Palestine.

Samer Alatout:

And it’s about ethnic cleansing and it’s about the stealing land.

Aditi Debnath:

He says mass media perpetuates the idea that the conflict is about religion instead of about the land, and that idea has dangerous echoes in history.

Hashim Zaibak:

The media sometimes portrays Palestinians as the bad guys. That’s exactly what happens to the Jews before World War II.

Aditi Debnath:

Zaibak is not the first one to liken the situation to World War II. As she visits the Milwaukee Jewish History Museum, Edie Pump says her personal experience also tells her the conflict is not about religious differences. As a Holocaust survivor, she remembers her family hiding in Uzbekistan.

Edie Pump:

It was a Muslim community and they were protective of the Jews. I had a Muslim midwife delivered me. When I was sick, a Muslim midwife took care of it, and they protected my parents.

Aditi Debnath:

Still, the Hamas Charter, written in 1988, calls for the end of Israel and its Jewish population. Pump compares the terror of Hamas to Nazi Germany.

Edie Pump:

Just like what happened in the Holocaust.

Aditi Debnath:

Hamas is designated by the U.S. as a terrorist organization and governs over the Gaza Strip. Innocent Palestinians are now caught in the crossfire.

Samer Alatout:

Is Hamas Palestine? No. But is the PNA, the Palestine authority, Palestine? No.

Aditi Debnath:

It’s a complex history inflamed by current bloodshed, and according to Miryam Rosenzweig, social media can distort the truth.

Miryam Rosenzweig:

People should stop getting their information from social media. If you could fit it in a text or in a post, chances are it’s not a very thoughtful argument.

Aditi Debnath:

But Zaibak says he thinks social media can help keep people up to date and it’s often younger people disseminating it.

Hashim Zaibak:

I feel it’s a different generation. I feel that the Gen Zers here in the United States are very empathetic with the Palestinian cause.

Edie Pump:

Education is the key. Learn about what’s going on. Learn about the differences between people and accept people’s differences.

Aditi Debnath:

Through it all, Hashim Zaibak awaits a daily text message from his family telling him they’re alive and Miryam Rosenzweig’s two-year-old niece hears the sirens and runs to the bomb shelter. Reporting from Milwaukee, I’m Aditi Debnath for “Here & Now.”

Frederica Freyberg:

It’s a year out from the 2024 general elections and Wisconsin Republican voters are showing signs of increased support for Donald Trump, but also for Nikki Haley. The latest Marquette University Law School Poll took the political pulse of the state electorate. Poll Director Charles Franklin is here to describe the numbers. Charles, nice to see you.

Charles Franklin:

Good to be back.

Frederica Freyberg:

With this week’s Republican primary debate and Donald Trump’s highly visible court cases, voters definitely have their eyes on the presidential race. In your poll that was in the field last week, it shows that Biden tops Trump by two points right now in Wisconsin, but if Trump were out of the mix, interestingly, it shows that Ron DeSantis tops Joe Biden by two points and then even more interestingly, it shows that Nikki Haley tops Biden by nine points. So what is that about in a state and in all the states where Trump has this huge lead against both those people?

Charles Franklin:

Well, in the primary, Trump’s lead is huge, it’s 20 points in our poll this time for Republicans, but the two-point margins for Trump or for DeSantis, our margin of error is four and a half points, so those are really toss-ups, but you can see DeSantis doing a little better than Trump does when paired against Biden. What’s interesting, as you say, is the Nikki Haley performance. A plus nine lead for her, that’s phenomenal and not realistic if we were in a general election. But what we see in the data is, first, about a third of the public say they don’t know much about Nikki Haley. And when she’s paired against Biden, I think that lack of knowledge and the fact that she’s not closely identified with the Trump wing of the party, allows independents and some Democrats who have reservations about Biden for various reasons, the economy, his age and so on, it allows them to say that they would vote for that Republican who is not from the Trump-y wing of the party. Conversely, people’s opinions of Trump and Biden are so set in stone that we end up with this near tie there and, indeed, independents split evenly between Trump and Biden, but independents give 58% of their vote to Nikki Haley.

Frederica Freyberg:

So could you have conceived a race where the frontrunner, that being Donald Trump, just doesn’t do debates, not to mention he’s under indictment and is still gaining in the polls?

Charles Franklin:

Yeah. His hold on the party is very strong to begin with, but not as strong as maybe myth would have it. We find about 70% of Republicans with a favorable view of Trump and about 30% with an unfavorable view of him among Republicans. That 30% almost none of them support Trump in the primary, but they haven’t coalesced around anybody else. At the beginning of the year, DeSantis was actually drawing about 30% of the vote among people who liked Trump, among Republicans who liked Trump, but that has plummeted since then. So the pro-Trump wing of the party really has coalesced around him and abandoned thinking about DeSantis, but none of the other candidates have really coalesced that 30% or so that don’t like Trump, and so it’s scatters between DeSantis and Hayley and then very small percentages for everybody else.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s take a look at what your survey found in the state of Wisconsin. Your poll shows that Tony Evers is right side up with approval ratings while the legislature is way upside down, and the state Supreme Court is also enjoying some firm approval. What do these numbers tell you?

Charles Franklin:

Tony Evers fell just below 50% approval before he was re-elected last November. He bumped up in June and has come down about three points now, but he’s a net positive. The legislature, on the other hand, when we last asked, which was back in 2022, had been pretty close to even, so they seemed to have slipped considerably in the meantime and we haven’t asked about the state Supreme Court before, this is our first time. They’re at 51% approval, which is fine, but, you know, the court will be in the news in coming months and we’ll see how the public reacts to that as the court becomes more visible in the news.

Frederica Freyberg:

I found your survey results on the redistricting interesting. Your poll shows that 51% want to keep the current maps until 2031. Now, those maps are the object of so much vocal disfavor. What do you make of these results?

Charles Franklin:

Two things. First, we did not mention gerrymandering or partisan districting in the question. That was deliberate. We want to know, if you just describe the situation before the court and what the option of putting off redistricting until 2031 is, what do people respond to that? How do they know that? When we’ve previously asked about non-partisan redistricting a couple of years ago, it was very popular, and so the point here is Republicans, about 75%, say they don’t want to redistrict. About 72% of Democrats say they do. Independents, a little more don’t. But the messaging on redistricting simply has not penetrated to the public so that with a neutral question, they automatically think of it in terms of partisanship and gerrymandering. If they did, we’d probably see more Republicans opposed, but we’d also see more Democrats and independents opposed. That messaging just hasn’t gotten through yet.

Frederica Freyberg:

We have less than a minute with a big topic that is abortion. Does this topic continue to stay resonant through 2024?

Charles Franklin:

I think the evidence is it does and this past Tuesday’s election shows that. What we see is about 57% favor abortion rights, about 35% opposed. That’s the deep partisan divide and also the party divide if you think about the legislature.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Charles Franklin, thanks very much.

Charles Franklin:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

We turn now to our series of special reports on race with “Wisconsin in Black and White,” in partnership with the Nehemiah Center for Urban Leadership Development. Last week, reporter Nathan Denzin examined why there is a large gap in maternal and infant health. Tonight, we take a look at Black men’s health and one man’s journey to improve outcomes for as many people as he can. Here’s the next installment of “Wisconsin in Black and White: Health Divides. ”

Nathan Denzin:

In the summer of 2004, Aaron Perry watched an Ironman competition in Madison and it changed his life.

Aaron Perry:

I remember looking and watching and I thought, you know, “I wish I wasn’t diabetic, ’cause I wanted to do it.”

Nathan Denzin:

Perry has diabetes, something that he shares with about 13% of Black Americans. In fact, Black Americans are 60% more likely to be diagnosed with diabetes than white Americans. Black men are nearly twice as likely to die from diabetes than white men and are two and a half times more likely to be hospitalized. But diabetes isn’t the only health issue facing Black men.

Aaron Perry:

You know, we face them from A to Z. We’re everywhere in that, you know, hypertension, diabetes, heart disease, stroke. We’re starting to see a lot of lung cancer and prostate cancer.

Nathan Denzin:

Black men also have the second-lowest life expectancy of any group in America, at about 67 years. To take back control of his own health, Perry found a running group to help him train for the grueling race, which includes a 2.4-mile swim, 112-mile bicycle ride, and a marathon 26-mile run.

Aaron Perry:

And one of my mentors, Dino Lucas, said to me, he said, “Aaron, join our running club. We’ll get you to the finish line.”

Nathan Denzin:

By the time race day had come, Perry felt better than ever.

Aaron Perry:

I remember thinking as I’m getting ready to get in the water, “Aaron, you have taken yourself from poor control of your diabetes and within 360-plus days, you’ve transformed yourself into one of the fittest athletes in the world.”

Nathan Denzin:

Just over 16 and a half hours later, Perry became the first African-American diabetic to complete an Ironman. After the race, he started to get questions from diabetics around the world asking for health advice. That’s when Perry started to get serious about his peers’ health and founded the Rebalanced-Life Wellness Association.

Aaron Perry:

When I started doing this work here in Madison and Dane County, the average age of death was 51 years of age for Black men, and if that’s not a crisis, I don’t know what it is.

Nathan Denzin:

Around 2009, Perry had the idea to put free health clinics in Black barbershops to catch men for a quick screening as they came and went for their cuts.

Aaron Perry:

I did the research and back in the early 1900s, the barbershop was everything. The barbershop was where the pharmacist was at. That was where the doctor was at, and so I looked at that and I thought, “How can we bring that full circle?”

Nathan Denzin:

Perry says cancellation rates for barbershop appointments is less than 1%, a far cry from the high cancellation rates clinics see from Black men.

Reggie Jackson:

The fact that we’re not treated the same when we go to the doctor, we don’t receive the same level of care.

Nathan Denzin:

Reggie Jackson educates people about diversity. He says that Black men can be reluctant to see a doctor because of experiences where medical professionals didn’t take their concerns seriously.

Reggie Jackson:

A lot of doctors assume that, well, if I give this Black person a specific protocol to follow because of this condition they have, well, they’re not going to follow it anyway, so I’m not going to even put them into that space.

Nathan Denzin:

A barbershop, on the other hand.

Aaron Perry:

All of these guys, they trust their barbers. They trust them with their life, they trust them with their kids’ lives.

Nathan Denzin:

So he started writing grants to the state government, asking for seed money to jumpstart the idea, but that idea took time to catch on.

Aaron Perry:

Keep in mind, I’m a former cop. I came into the barbershop saying, “I want to help you get healthy.” You know, that was not well-received. It took me quite a few years.

Nathan Denzin:

Then in 2016, after being denied another round of state grants, SSM Health decided to give Perry’s idea a shot. The first barbershop to get a clinic: JP Hair Design in Madison. His idea was simple. In the extra office space JP had available, Perry would set up and catch men as they finished their haircut. Guys could get blood pressure screenings, flu shots, diabetes, glucose, and cholesterol testing, all for free.

Aaron Perry:

So we literally have changed the culture in the barbershops on how the conversations go. It’s no longer sports and politics; it’s health, sports, and politics.

Nathan Denzin:

Perry now has clinics in four Madison-area barbershops, which he says reaches about 30% of the Black men in Dane County.

Erin Hall:

The initiative that we’re working on is to try to bring health care to as many people as possible.

Nathan Denzin:

Erin Hall owns Resilient Hair Designs and says he’s dedicated to Perry’s vision for health care.

Aaron Perry:

It’s bringing health care back into the community. We’re taking it away from the clinic and hospital walls, and we’re bringing it back into the community where it belongs.

Nathan Denzin:

Along with the barbershops, Perry started his own health center next to JP Hair Design that can do more for patients than a small clinic could.

Nurse:

Thank you.

Patient:

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Nathan Denzin:

The clinic’s trained nurses work with men to get them healthy.

Aaron Perry:

What we tell them right up front, as of today, whatever’s going on with you, we’re going to stabilize you. You will not get worse. You’re going to get better from this point on. If it’s a concern with housing, we want to help them have housing. If a concern with, you know, whether it’s you know, relationships, we are going to have them connected with a mental health counselor.

Nathan Denzin:

Even with the clinics and barbershops and his standalone health center, Perry wants to take his idea further. The next step, opening a clinic in Madison’s Second Baptist Church.

Aaron Perry:

The culture with the Black community, you know, we are naturally, you know, a faith-based people, you know, and the majority go to church.

Nathan Denzin:

The clinic opens in the fall of 2023 to serve the community on Sundays, though Perry says more days may be added as needed.

Aaron Perry:

We want these neighborhoods to be health villages. We want them to be places where low income and uninsured people can still have access to care, and by bringing this back into the community such as churches, barbershops, and free clinics, that is what we’re hoping to achieve.

Nathan Denzin:

By combining all three, Perry is launching what he calls Brother Care Health, a health care model designed to operate in underserved neighborhoods.

Aaron Perry:

When you walk out your front door, you should be able to walk out your front door and see health in your community.

Nathan Denzin:

While Perry is working on seeing health in Dane County communities, he says he’s given advice to people all over the country, including places like Maryland, California, and Washington, D.C.

Aaron Perry:

This model has been replicated all across the United States, you know, and it started right here, so we’re proud of that.

Nathan Denzin:

For “Here & Now,” I’m Nathan Denzin.

Frederica Freyberg:

For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSwisconsin.org, and then click on the news tab. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.