Frederica Freyberg:

A coronavirus relief bill has been tying Washington up in knots. Democrats and Republicans spent the day trying to make a deal on aid spending. A deal that to be hatched would have to bring the sides hundreds of billions of dollars closer. Earlier today we talked with Republican U.S. Senator Ron Johnson from his district. Senator, thank you so much for joining us.

Ron Johnson:

Glad to be here. Hope you’re staying healthy.

Frederica Freyberg:

And you. Describe for us why you have called the Democrats’ proposed spending levels in the relief package as grotesque.

Ron Johnson:

Just look at the numbers. We’ve already, as of the end of April, we passed at least $2.9 trillion. I had an Oversite Hearing on this. It could be $3.5 to $3.6. To put that into perspective, that represents about thirteen and a half — almost 17% of our economy. Unemployment is down about 10.5%. Recent economic forecasts say for the whole of 2020, our economy will probably shrink 4.6 to 7%. So we’ve already authorized more than enough spending. About $1.2 to almost $1.5 trillion, according to our witnesses, is unspent and unobligated. So what I’ve been saying is I’m happy to take a look at what we haven’t spent or obligated but let’s learn from what we already have spent. What didn’t work, what did work, you know, how can we direct the other 1.2 to 1.5 so it’s really directed toward the individuals and businesses that truly need the help. When we passed these bills in late April, we knew had to do something fast. We had to do something massive and knew it was going to be far from perfect. No criticism over what we did. But now is the time to correct the less than perfect. Let’s not mortgage our kids’ future. We’re $26.5 trillion in debt. On the way to $27 trillion, $28 trillion. Some other stats. I know I’m throwing a lot of numbers but real disposable income is actually increased from about $14.9 trillion in March to $16 trillion in June. Saving rates have increased from 8.3% to 19.2. So, again, we authorized more than enough money. We need to just spend what we authorized better as opposed to what Nancy Pelosi did was double that amount. So she is proposing literally authorizing in total probably close to 30% of last year’s GDP when this year’s GDP will probably only be down under 10%. That’s why I called that extra $3 trillion a grotesque amount.

Frederica Freyberg:

The $600 extra unemployment benefit expired last week and you have said that you wanted something less than that. Why?

Ron Johnson:

Well, first of all, remember what Democrats did after the Great Recession when they had the presidency, a filibuster-proof Senate and the House. They plused up state unemployment benefits by $25 a week. What we’ve done is we’ve plused it up by $600 per week. The University of Chicago did a study, said about 68% of people on unemployment benefits were making more on unemployment than they were making on the job. CBO said about five out of six people. That’s a perverse incentive for people not to be engaged back in the workforce and help build our economy. What I’ve proposed was why don’t we plus them up by $200. That’s eight times more than the $25 per week the Democrats enacted after the Great Recession. But that’s not enough. We actually had, I think, a couple proposals now to give us time to negotiate. We’ll just extend the $600 a week or two and Democrats still say no on that. Democrats are insisting on a $3 trillion bill. Republicans are trying to work in good faith and genuinely offer some good proposals here. Democrats keep saying no. But again, remember, my proposal $200 per week is still eight times higher than what Democrats passed when they had total control after the Great Recession.

Frederica Freyberg:

Doesn’t the extra money itself though spur the economy as well as keep people afloat?

Ron Johnson:

I know the argument is made there, but our economy would be spurred far better if we encouraged people to re-engage in the economy, get back in the workforce. At the end of May – I don’t know what the figures are yet for the end of June – at the end of May, there were 5.4 million jobs open that were open that weren’t being filled. What I hear from employers that are trying to open up, trying to reignite this economy is they can’t bring people back off of unemployment. People make rational decisions. If they’re making more sitting at home on unemployment, they’re sitting at home. Not all of them but an awful lot of them. We have to end that very perverse incentive.

Frederica Freyberg:

As the senior senator from Wisconsin, what is your message to the people of this state in the midst of what is a devastating pandemic?

Ron Johnson:

Certainly from what I supported in Congress is I knew we had to pass something fast. I knew it had to be pretty massive because we didn’t want markets to collapse. We wanted to provide individuals through no fault of their own, businesses that were closing, employees that were out of work, we wanted to give them the financial aid. And we tried to do that. And we did do it. And even the federal government has a hard time spending trillions of dollars. Again, we haven’t spent $1.2 trillion. Why don’t we spend that better before we authorize another dime. We need to be concerned about the fact we’re $26.5 trillion in debt moving toward 27, 28. That is going to have an enormous impact in the future. Reduced opportunity for our children. We’re mortgaging our kids’ future. We need to be careful about that. This isn’t Monopoly money. This is real money. This has a real, long-term effect. Let’s spend it wisely.

Frederica Freyberg:

As chair of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, you are leading an investigation going back to the Obama administration. What are you seeking to uncover here?

Ron Johnson:

What we’ve already uncovered is corruption at the highest levels. Certainly at the FBI, Department of Justice, the corruption of the transition process. Part of our investigation did seek to determine what happened in the election based on a report from Politico where that report showed that some DNC operatives were working with some Ukrainian nationals, possibly corrupting the election process. We’ve been investigating these things for years. We’ve uncovered an awful lot. Our investigation certainly showed and made public the Peter Strzok – Lisa Page texts which had been kind of a roadmap of the corruption that did occur within the FBI. These are real issues. This is real corruption. The American public has a right to know.

Frederica Freyberg:

With just about a minute left, senator, what is your reaction to critics of this investigation saying it’s diverting your time and attention and others away from dealing with the pandemic?

Ron Johnson:

First of all, it isn’t. Most of my committee’s time has been spent holding hearings on COVID-related issues: the national stockpile, the vulnerability of our supply chains. We held a marking up legislation a couple weeks ago. We passed five bills addressing COVID and a national stockpile and supply chain vulnerability. It’s not distracting from our efforts whatsoever. Quite honestly, there is an enormous disinformation campaign being conducted against myself and Chairman Grassley and it is Democrats that have bought and paid for Russian disinformation and are now interjecting those into our investigatory record as well. Democrats are accusing us of the exact same — falsely accusing us of the exact same behavior they’re currently engaging in. It’s despicable.

Frederica Freyberg:

Lots going on. Senator Ron Johnson, thank you so much for joining us.

Ron Johnson:

Have a great day. Stay healthy.

Frederica Freyberg:

We invited Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin to join our program. She was unable. She did provide this statement concerning the relief package. “President Trump keeps pretending that things are getting better when this public health and economic crisis continues to get worse. For nearly three months, Senate Republicans have failed to take action on legislation that passed the House and now they want to cut federal unemployment benefits while so many in Wisconsin are still out of work and struggling to make ends meet. Families, small businesses and schools need help in Wisconsin and we need to take action now on bipartisan legislation that delivers it.”