Frederica Freyberg:

We spoke earlier in this program about how the governor’s budget would roll back some of the prongs of Act 10 that effectively stripped public workers of their bargaining rights. That sweeping law went into effect ten years ago. In the midst of its passage, tens of thousands of protesters at one point, one hundred thousand swept thru the state Capitol and converged on its grounds, many of them teachers. The crowds were like nothing seen before, the largest demonstration in state history. Imagine being the person in charge of safety at the state Capitol during that. Our next guest was that person. Former Capitol Police Chief Charles Tubbs. He’s currently director of emergency management for Dane County. Thanks very much for being here.

Charles Tubbs:

Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So take us back to those 50 days of demonstrations, 30 of them you describe as intense. How daunting was it to be in charge of public safety and protection of the Capitol?

Charles Tubbs:

It was a very humbling experience. I mentioned earlier to you that I was in Washington D.C. area during 9/11, and that was a very humbling but rewarding experience. I learned so much on how to protect the country and what was taking place at that time made me grow up even more. The Capitol protests, Act 10 was another major event in my life, and I knew I had to act responsible and be very capable of making things happen in a positive light to save lives, reduce injuries and reduce the damage to property, while allowing the government to continue to do their work and the citizens to execute their constitutional rights.

Frederica Freyberg:

You said you made a conscious decision not to use what you called “hard tactics” like riot gear or pepper spray. Why that decision?

Charles Tubbs:

I’m a kid of the ’60s, and I watched sometimes — mainly watched and watched how that happened and how unfortunately the use of batons and at the time tear gas and all those type of techniques without the ability to communicate with people created a real tragedy situation with people involved. No confidence, complete chaos and turmoil. People were injured, lost their lives, went to jail, had a tremendous impact on public safety and citizens.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what did you do instead that resulted in fewer than 20 arrests during those days and one seriously-injured officer?

Charles Tubbs:

What I immediately learned Governor Walker’s plan, I believe it was on a Thursday afternoon and he had called his cabinet together and invited me to the meeting. He made the announcement of what he had planned to do, and moving forward I knew immediately this was going to create a tremendous impact and reaction from the citizens in Dane County and throughout the state. I just didn’t know how big. I knew it would be large, but I didn’t know how large it was going to be. So I prepared for the absolute worst and prayed for the best and I began meeting immediately with — because the word got out before I even left the office, well, that there was going to be this massive change in collective bargaining, et cetera. So I had to in about two and a half days meet with unions, special interest groups, law enforcement, elected officials, everyone involved to make sure we were able to police the situation without letting it get out of hand. And, again, as I said earlier, losing lives, property damage and injuries to many people.

Frederica Freyberg:

Was there political pressure to, quote, crack some heads?

Charles Tubbs:

There was political pressure from some of the elected officials that I was not doing enough, I needed to remove the people from the building, basically I was in a sense being too soft and I needed to take control of the building. At one point, I believe some of the elected officials wanted me removed.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you think that your tactics that kind of direct dialogue and even I understand having protesters kind of police themselves with these kind of protest marshals and that kind of thing, do you think that those tactics on your part have implications for discussions now around police reform?

Charles Tubbs:

Yes, I do. And I have spoken with a number of agencies about the tactics that we used and how they worked so well and why they worked so well. And I believe in today’s society what we’re facing with civil unrest, number of issues facing this country right now, it is the technique that must be used to regain order and also allow people the opportunity to express themselves.

Frederica Freyberg:

So with about a minute left, do you think such demonstrations could, despite deliberate de-escalation measures on your part and the part of other officers that you commanded, do you think this could be managed the same way in today’s climate, especially after what we saw January 6 in the nation’s Capitol?

Charles Tubbs:

I do. I want to make sure I’m not comparing the two incidents, because they were totally different. I had an opportunity there to really get out and reached out to the people and bring about what I thought a positive change on how they were going to be able to execute their constitutional rights. I do believe by reaching out the lines of communication must be open and they must remain open no matter how difficult and terrible things may get. If you get in a situation where you turn off the lines of communication, you’re going to lose and lose big time in a situation like we faced.

Frederica Freyberg:

We need to leave it there. Charles Tubbs, thanks very much and thanks for your recollections.

Charles Tubbs:

Thank you.